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Starcraft 2: We're just a bunch of crazy guys and Dhals.

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Posts

  • GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    it'd be nice if toss had more "hit and run" harass options such as drops or mutas. phoenix harass can be pretty boss but the drawback is that they don't do much to supplement your main army later (with the exception of awesome tank lifts).

    Guek on
  • KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    The only drop that does any damage close to a Terran drop is a Storm Drop.

    MAYBE an Immortal drop to snipe a tech building.

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
    lTDyp.jpg
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    iowa wrote: »
    Olorin wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    AdelScott - sexy warp prism play, erryday.

    Yes...but I would like to use this game as an example of why you don't see a lot of warp prism play. It just wasn't that effective, especially when you compare it to just how effective the terran drops were in the same game. Now please, nobody take this out of context...I'm NOT trying to say warp prism play can't be effective (I'm sure it can)...but when you compare the effectiveness of Adel's warp prism play to throzain's infantry drops...well one was waaaay more effective than the other. Again...I just think this game is a good general example of why you see a lot of drop play from terran..but not the same kind of warp prism play from protoss.

    the two should not be compared. with wrap prisms you have control over how much you want to dedicate to it, with dropships it's usually much more all in. Many times you'll lose the drop which takes a significantly bigger hit to your army (1 medivac and 8 marines vs 1 WP and 3 or 4 stalkers, or more depending on how much you commit).

    they just aren't the same

    stop thinking they can be compared.

    no one said that WP harassment has to be as effective as dship harrass. Its one tool of harassment that toss has and it should be used. I mean, terran could harass with a group of vikings, but its not cost effective. maybe we will find that WP harass just isn't worth it. that's so different because WP is so broad, you can choose which out of 4 or 5 units you warp in and how much to commit.

    This is a pretty dumb post.

    Lets address your post (and the others you've made)

    1) No one said that WP harassment has to be as effective as dropship harass

    No, this is true. No one has said that. All the Protoss players are saying, however, is to stop trumpeting that ease of drops isn't a significant advantage Terran has over Protoss, because it IS a big advantage.

    2) Maybe for cost, 4 stalkers/1 warp prism and 8 marines/1 medivac are, on paper, the same. However, get 8 stimmed marines into a mineral line and you'll take out 5-6 probes before the opponent can even react. Thats minimum.
    Get 4 stalkers into the mineral line you'll probbaly lose 2-3 at most.

    Thats not mentioning the fact that once the drop is over the medivac can return to your army and fulfil a vital role in main battles. What can the warp prism do? Oh right. Deploy into a far crappier version of a proxy pylon, which is something you should have at the front of the battle anyway.

    And you can choose how much you want to commit to warp prism harass? And its more all-in? Are you fucking kidding me?

    Sure, I can warp in more units to your base using the power field. The second I do that, however, I am essentially saying "I HAVE to make these units worthwhile" because I have zero way to get them out of there alive. The warp prism is also more vulnerable than the medivac if you're deploying it, it takes a long time to deploy. In addition, short of making more warp prisms, there is no way to increase the size of the drop without being willing to throw away warped-in units, and while Terran players are always likely to have plenty of medivacs on hand if they're going bio, Protoss players cannot simply just make 3-4 warp prisms and use that for occasional drop harassment. You have to make them pay for themselves or you've wasted valuable robo facility time and the resources they cost.

    tl;dr - you spend a whole lot of time telling people not to compare things 1 for 1 in the game, such as Terran drops vs Protoss drops, and then you do it yourself and get it totally fucking wrong anyway

    Dhalphir on
  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Whoa whoa whoa.. Lets settle down here. Everyone should agree to QQ about zerg collectively.

    TheBog on
  • SeguerSeguer of the Void Sydney, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Dhal may come across as pretty angry there, but that doesn't make what he's saying any less accurate.

    Seguer on
  • KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Yeah, people who want Toss to invest into heavy WP drops just have no real idea what they are suggesting.

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
    lTDyp.jpg
  • tuxkamentuxkamen really took this picture. Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    It's perfectly okay to be biased against Protoss. It's not okay to be biased and stupid about it.

    tuxkamen on

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  • ImpyrockerImpyrocker Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Crazy, crazy Dhals.
    More seriously though, I never use warp prisms against terran because they are almost never going to be cost effective. Maybe late game, on 3+ bases I might get one(a great combo is 3 zealots and 1 dt, they almost never realize a dt is in there) but other than that, they just aren't effective. Also, a terran is going to be getting vikings anyway, and it takes minimal viking spread to completely shut down wp harass. Really, I only use wp's against other toss.
    Although... I felt really boss one time when I managed a double immortal drop behind a terran players tank line during a battle, and than warped in zealots as well. :D

    Impyrocker on
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  • peacekeeperpeacekeeper AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    what about that game where, i don't know who it was, but the toss walked into the enemy base on xelnaga and ff'd the ramp so they couldn't come in to kill them while they wrecked their base, a warp prism doom drop like that could be great

    but the biggest problem with drops is they require good multitasking so talking about players of our caliber doing them is quite moot

    peacekeeper on
  • tuxkamentuxkamen really took this picture. Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    what about that game where, i don't know who it was, but the toss walked into the enemy base on xelnaga and ff'd the ramp so they couldn't come in to kill them while they wrecked their base, a warp prism doom drop like that could be great

    but the biggest problem with drops is they require good multitasking so talking about players of our caliber doing them is quite moot

    I've done that before, but only in the very late game where I could warp in eight zealots behind the sentries and not feel bad about the cost. However, in all situations like that it's a heck of a lot easier to do it with blink and a sentry outside on the low ground. It's also a lot more efficient because you can get your stuff out.

    tuxkamen on

    Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
    Thus, the others all die before tuxkamen dies to the vote. Hence, tuxkamen survives, village victory.
    3DS: 2406-5451-5770
  • iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Olorin wrote: »
    TheBog wrote: »
    iowa wrote: »
    with wrap prisms you have control over how much you want to dedicate to it, with dropships it's usually much more all in. Many times you'll lose the drop which takes a significantly bigger hit to your army (1 medivac and 8 marines vs 1 WP and 3 or 4 stalkers, or more depending on how much you commit).

    Just throwing this out there. 1 medivac and 8 marines is 500/100. 1 warp prism and 3 stalkers is 500/75. They're basically the same cost.

    Actually, 1 warp prism and three stalkers are 575/150...

    my whole point is that you comparing one dimension doesn't even make sense in this game.

    It really doesn't. whether it's cost/drop ability/whatever. There are just too many variables in place for comparing the literal cost of something to really be all that relevant. guys

    iowa on
  • iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    lemming you are an idiot

    if this were warcraft 2 your arguments would make sense but its not bro

    iowa on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    iowa wrote: »
    lemming you are an idiot

    if this were warcraft 2 your arguments would make sense but its not bro

    Lemming was merely responding to your silly comment about terran medivac drops being more all-in than warp-prism play

    Dhalphir on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    iowa you could have made any point but when you said that terran drops are generally more all in than protoss drops i stopped reading

    that's just straight up ignorant bro

    DodgeBlan on
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  • MaratastikMaratastik Just call me Mara, please! Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    iowa wrote: »
    Olorin wrote: »
    TheBog wrote: »
    iowa wrote: »
    with wrap prisms you have control over how much you want to dedicate to it, with dropships it's usually much more all in. Many times you'll lose the drop which takes a significantly bigger hit to your army (1 medivac and 8 marines vs 1 WP and 3 or 4 stalkers, or more depending on how much you commit).

    Just throwing this out there. 1 medivac and 8 marines is 500/100. 1 warp prism and 3 stalkers is 500/75. They're basically the same cost.

    Actually, 1 warp prism and three stalkers are 575/150...

    my whole point is that you comparing one dimension doesn't even make sense in this game.

    It really doesn't. whether it's cost/drop ability/whatever. There are just too many variables in place for comparing the literal cost of something to really be all that relevant. guys

    Wait...you chose to respond to this post? The one where I was just correcting him? Why don't you read my earlier post where I told you my intent was NOT to compare them...merely point out why you might not see as much warp prism play as you like. Please read my other post first before you keep putting words in my mouth.

    Here it is for you:
    Olorin wrote: »
    iowa wrote: »
    Olorin wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    AdelScott - sexy warp prism play, erryday.

    Yes...but I would like to use this game as an example of why you don't see a lot of warp prism play. It just wasn't that effective, especially when you compare it to just how effective the terran drops were in the same game. Now please, nobody take this out of context...I'm NOT trying to say warp prism play can't be effective (I'm sure it can)...but when you compare the effectiveness of Adel's warp prism play to throzain's infantry drops...well one was waaaay more effective than the other. Again...I just think this game is a good general example of why you see a lot of drop play from terran..but not the same kind of warp prism play from protoss.

    the two should not be compared. with wrap prisms you have control over how much you want to dedicate to it, with dropships it's usually much more all in. Many times you'll lose the drop which takes a significantly bigger hit to your army (1 medivac and 8 marines vs 1 WP and 3 or 4 stalkers, or more depending on how much you commit).

    they just aren't the same

    stop thinking they can be compared.

    no one said that WP harassment has to be as effective as dship harrass. Its one tool of harassment that toss has and it should be used. I mean, terran could harass with a group of vikings, but its not cost effective. maybe we will find that WP harass just isn't worth it. that's so different because WP is so broad, you can choose which out of 4 or 5 units you warp in and how much to commit.

    I'm sorry Iowa, I think you misunderstand me....I'm not trying to imply that warp prism play should be as good as terran drop play. I was just trying to use the game as an example of WHY you don't see as much warp prism play from toss as you do drop play from terran. In that game...Adel's warp prism play just wasn't effective to really be worth it IMO. It was a nice idea and all but it just didn't work out that great. I know it is just one example (which is why I'm not trying to say warp prisms are 100% useless) but it was a pretty good example of typical warp prism use.

    You have complained about warp prisms not being used enough (which I actually mostly agree with) but I thought this game was a good example of why you don't see them get used very often. Again, I wasn't trying to imply warpprisms should be as good as dropships. Sorry for the misunderstanding on that.

    Maratastik on
  • iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    holy shit that dhal post. what is it even saying. I'm not comparing them 1 on 1 because it doesn't make sense, as I said. where did I compare something 1 on 1? I can bring out the venn diagrams for your, or maybe you should take an intro to econ course.

    let's say in the abstract there is the tool of harassment. Each race has its tools of harassment. terran have infantry drops, banshee, hellion etc etc. Toss have phoenix, WP, DT, etc etc. Zerg has Roach burrow, speedling, muta, etc etc. All these have their certain times of use and availability for effectiveness. we hope that in the abstract plain the sum of the tools are somewhat equal. maybe they are not right now.

    iowa on
  • iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    iowa you could have made any point but when you said that terran drops are generally more all in than protoss drops i stopped reading

    that's just straight up ignorant bro

    write more words than this

    iowa on
  • peacekeeperpeacekeeper AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    i wonder if someone like kiwikaki has ever pulled off a storm drop with a sentry to block in the workers

    peacekeeper on
  • GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    i'm pretty much completely with olorin on this one...so...*points up*

    Guek on
  • peacekeeperpeacekeeper AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    oh tl have put up the first of the korean invites for tsl 3

    toss players

    genius
    mc
    huk

    peacekeeper on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    yeah iowa i'm pretty much going to ignore any opinion you have on anything about starcraft from now given that you think terran drops are more all-in than protoss warp prism drops

    pretty much means you have no idea about anything

    Dhalphir on
  • EvangirEvangir Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    In terms of getting away after doing damage, Terran drops are just fine. The only real threats are Muta/Phoenix/Vikings. Their early/mid-game drop ability is one of their best attributes if you have the APM to use them.

    Protoss have arguably the best late-game mineral-line harassment (Templar drops), and mediocre early/mid-game harassment (Immortal Drop, Zealot warp-ins from a prism, Phoenix harass etc).

    Does that cover everything? Can we get back to Zergs complaining about every unit Terran has, like usual?

    Evangir on
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  • WhatWhat Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Storm drops lmao

    I wasnt making fun of you Evangir, I literally made that post right as you did.

    Also, using one game as the basis of why WP can't be used is mildly retarded.

    What on
  • EvangirEvangir Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Epic timing is epic.

    Evangir on
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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Evangir wrote: »
    In terms of getting away after doing damage, Terran drops are just fine. The only real threats are Muta/Phoenix/Vikings. Their early/mid-game drop ability is one of their best attributes if you have the APM to use them.

    Protoss have arguably the best late-game mineral-line harassment (Templar drops), and mediocre early/mid-game harassment (Immortal Drop, Zealot warp-ins from a prism, Phoenix harass etc).

    Does that cover everything? Can we get back to Zergs complaining about every unit Terran has, like usual?

    Two medivacs full of upgraded stimmed marines will wreck a mineral line much faster and for much less investment than a storm drop. And you already have those units, you don't even have to make a warp prism specifically for its use.


    What wrote: »
    Storm drops lmao

    I wasnt making fun of you Evangir, I literally made that post right as you did.

    Also, using one game as the basis of why WP can't be used is mildly retarded.

    So is trying to claim that Terran drops are all-in and you're more likely to lose the units than you are with a Protoss drop.

    Dhalphir on
  • WhatWhat Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    What on
  • EvangirEvangir Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Evangir wrote: »
    In terms of getting away after doing damage, Terran drops are just fine. The only real threats are Muta/Phoenix/Vikings. Their early/mid-game drop ability is one of their best attributes if you have the APM to use them.

    Protoss have arguably the best late-game mineral-line harassment (Templar drops), and mediocre early/mid-game harassment (Immortal Drop, Zealot warp-ins from a prism, Phoenix harass etc).

    Does that cover everything? Can we get back to Zergs complaining about every unit Terran has, like usual?

    Two medivacs full of upgraded stimmed marines will wreck a mineral line much faster and for much less investment than a storm drop. And you already have those units, you don't even have to make a warp prism specifically for its use.


    What wrote: »
    Storm drops lmao

    I wasnt making fun of you Evangir, I literally made that post right as you did.

    Also, using one game as the basis of why WP can't be used is mildly retarded.

    So is trying to claim that Terran drops are all-in and you're more likely to lose the units than you are with a Protoss drop.

    Faster than Templar? One templar with 150 energy can kill every SCV in a mineral line in 3 seconds. If you react fast enough, you MIGHT be able to get your SCVs out in time. You can escape medivac drops some of the time. And as far as investment goes, if you didn't already have Templar in late-game PvT... What game are you playing? 1000/200 (16 marines + 2 medivacs) is often more than 250/150 (1 Templar and 1 Warp-prism).

    Evangir on
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  • WhatWhat Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    I believe he means the warp prism. However, that's still not any good argument. Why did we ever make shuttles?

    What on
  • kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Dropships are super slow and it's frequently a total loss when you attempt to drop.

    It ain't for nothing that lots of pros favor sending half-full dropships.

    Warp prisms are better at escaping.

    I don't consider it a valid negative that you can generate fresh reinforcements from thin goddamn air if necessary, but you cannot necessarily carry all of them home.

    Just don't warp them in unless you want to gamble that their deaths will be worth it.

    kedinik on
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  • GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Evangir wrote: »
    In terms of getting away after doing damage, Terran drops are just fine. The only real threats are Muta/Phoenix/Vikings. Their early/mid-game drop ability is one of their best attributes if you have the APM to use them.

    Protoss have arguably the best late-game mineral-line harassment (Templar drops), and mediocre early/mid-game harassment (Immortal Drop, Zealot warp-ins from a prism, Phoenix harass etc).

    Does that cover everything? Can we get back to Zergs complaining about every unit Terran has, like usual?

    this is all true. but while HT drops are pretty boss, the problem is that it usually becomes more and more difficult to land a drop as the game goes on.

    then again, i guess since toss isn't all that well known for drops, i guess you could potentially catch them completely off guard.

    i always considered harass in general though to be more of a mid-game tactic. oh sure, we see it stretch on to late game all the time, and we've certainly seen HT drops do massive amounts of economic damage, but i always thought harass was most effective in delaying your opponent while you macro up to mid/late game. i've played plenty of matches where i'll get muta harassed or dropped by terran or suffer speedling runbys and wish desperately that i could do something similar in return. the problem is if i wanna go the DT route, that takes quite awhile, is expensive, and kind of a coin toss as to whether it'll do enough damage to be worth it before its countered. proxy pylon or WP chargelots can do well, but i don't think people realize how costly it is having your robo not producing a colossi or immortal, plus WPs aren't exactly super cheap. Those chargelots are all minerals lost so you better hope it deals enough damage. as for HTs, like i said, they just come so late in the game. i should probably try to use them more often though, i usually forget about HT harass entirely.

    so far, i think phoenix harass is the best :) but you gotta be careful because phoenixes are kind of worthless in a straight up fight so harassing with phoenixes can easily lead to the enemy just charging in and killing you.

    plus no detection, so almost any kind of early cloaked banshee play completely shuts you down.

    Guek on
  • MaratastikMaratastik Just call me Mara, please! Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    What wrote: »
    Storm drops lmao

    I wasnt making fun of you Evangir, I literally made that post right as you did.

    Also, using one game as the basis of why WP can't be used is mildly retarded.

    Are people just choosing not to comprehend my posts? First I never said or implied that warp prisms can't be used or that they are useless (I flat out stated that in my post). Second, I said the game is a good example (E-X-A-M-P-L-E) of why you don't see warp prisms all that often. I was not trying to say "Oh, Adel used warp prisms and he lost so warp prisms are bad." I was trying to say "oh, this is very similar to the same results I have had using warp prisms and other protoss players who I've watched stream." Therefore it is a good example of why you don't see them all that often. He tried to do some damage while splitting up the terran's army but instead didn't really do any damage and ended up just handing units to the terran player. This is very similar to other attempts at warp prism use that I have seen. That is all I was trying to say. That doesn't mean they can't be used well...just that the ways we commonly see them used don't seem to work out all that well (most of the time).

    Maratastik on
  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Evangir wrote: »
    In terms of getting away after doing damage, Terran drops are just fine. The only real threats are Muta/Phoenix/Vikings. Their early/mid-game drop ability is one of their best attributes if you have the APM to use them.

    Protoss have arguably the best late-game mineral-line harassment (Templar drops), and mediocre early/mid-game harassment (Immortal Drop, Zealot warp-ins from a prism, Phoenix harass etc).

    Does that cover everything? Can we get back to Zergs complaining about every unit Terran has, like usual?

    Two medivacs full of upgraded stimmed marines will wreck a mineral line much faster and for much less investment than a storm drop. And you already have those units, you don't even have to make a warp prism specifically for its use.

    Two medivacs of stimmed marines and a storm drop will both destroy a mineral line in about 2 seconds flat. I don't know why you think the marines would kill it quicker. I'm also not sure where you get the investment thing either. Two medivacs full of stimmed marines comes to 1000 minerals and 200 gas. A storm drop comes to 300 minerals and 300 gas (assuming I did my math right). 1000 minerals and 200 gas. A storm drop comes to 300 minerals and 300 gas (assuming I did my math right).

    mEEksa on
  • WhatWhat Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    lmao meeks cant quote

    What on
  • GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    kedinik wrote: »
    Warp prisms are better at escaping.

    this is simply not true. you're going to lose something if you're intending to warp in. you can warp in at the edge of a base and send your units in directly, but whether they're zealots or stalkers, you're not going to be getting back to that warp prism in time to escape if you were actually planning on killing more than one or two workers. transitioning from pylon mode and transport mode also takes time.


    the chief benefit of terran drops is that all infantry is ranged and they have stim. you can dish out a crazy amount of damage in a short amount of time, your units can stay relatively close to the medivac, and you can retreat quickly due to stim speed if need be.

    Guek on
  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Haha holy shit I failed that hardcore. I think I've been playing too much Protoss lately; it has been destroying my braincells.

    mEEksa on
  • iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    the dynamics and the timing and the route toward a 2 medivac stimmed marine drop is completely different than that of a templar storm drop.

    I don't understand this. What is dhals point or argument? what are we trying to get out of this? are we just trying to determine that terran drops or op or what? it doesn't make sense to say 'yeah terran drops better than any other race' and maybe they do but that doesnt prove anything.

    drops are better looked at in as a part of the group of tools called harassment.

    iowa on
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Storm drops are good, but look at the point of the game they come in. By that point, it's way easier to have a turret or two up near your minerals lines.

    Also, the only time that warp prisms are faster than dropships is when you get the speed upgrade at the collosi den.

    Lemming on
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    iowa wrote: »
    the dynamics and the timing and the route toward a 2 medivac stimmed marine drop is completely different than that of a templar storm drop.

    I don't understand this. What is dhals point or argument? what are we trying to get out of this? are we just trying to determine that terran drops or op or what? it doesn't make sense to say 'yeah terran drops better than any other race' and maybe they do but that doesnt prove anything.

    drops are better looked at in as a part of the group of tools called harassment.

    Most people, I think, are ripping on you because of this fit of retadation:
    iowa wrote: »
    the two should not be compared. with wrap prisms you have control over how much you want to dedicate to it, with dropships it's usually much more all in. Many times you'll lose the drop which takes a significantly bigger hit to your army (1 medivac and 8 marines vs 1 WP and 3 or 4 stalkers, or more depending on how much you commit).

    Lemming on
  • WhatWhat Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    I don't think a turret will dissuade a storm drop. They never did in BW anyway.

    What on
  • GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    iowa wrote: »
    the dynamics and the timing and the route toward a 2 medivac stimmed marine drop is completely different than that of a templar storm drop.

    I don't understand this. What is dhals point or argument? what are we trying to get out of this? are we just trying to determine that terran drops or op or what? it doesn't make sense to say 'yeah terran drops better than any other race' and maybe they do but that doesnt prove anything.

    drops are better looked at in as a part of the group of tools called harassment.

    most of this is in response to an ancillary part of your previous statement that was was incredibly dumb. ironically, you were the first one to really directly compare WP and terrran drops. olorin was just talking about how the match we saw was an example of why we might not see as much WP play.

    Guek on
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