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Starcraft 2: We're just a bunch of crazy guys and Dhals.

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    TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Why the hell are you people comparing 2 full medivacs to a warp prism with a single HT in it? Who the fuck uses 2 full medivacs to raid a single mineral line?

    TheBog on
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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    the only thing protoss can drop that can do damage in small enough numbers to make retreat an option are templars

    and maybe immortals if you are super baller

    I'm not saying that protoss aren't super op all the time

    but compared to mutas and terdrops

    they obviously have the weakest midgame harassment options

    not that I really care, because I am not good enough to harass effectively anyway

    DodgeBlan on
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    iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    maybe i didn't phrase it right.

    i wanted to point out that the dynamics of warp prisms and dropships are really different.

    like lets say. alright ima bfh drop this toss, i gotta do damage or else im behind. so you run in and either do your damage or he's prepared and you dont and you gotta recover.

    with a WP you can roll in, if it's mid game you might warp in 4 speed zealots and run em into a min line, and if it goes well and is cost effective and he doesnt find the wp you might do it again. or you might be like alright that was good but i think hes gunna find it im gunna go hide and come back later with DT warp ins. you have much more control over how much you commit is my point.

    the potential for the WP is pretty vast if you have high enough APM

    iowa on
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    GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    What wrote: »
    I don't think a turret will dissuade a storm drop. They never did in BW anyway.

    a turret does a lot. it could possibly kill the WP before the HT is warped in or dropped (they're pretty fragile). if its at the edge of the base, it gives an observant player a heads up that a drop is coming, allowing them to move their workers. turning on pylon mode and warping in takes a few vital seconds. even if you were just dropping the HT, HTs move like they're moving through molasses, so if the workers are already moving away, no way you're gonna get a storm off.

    Guek on
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    WhatWhat Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    You lose the units though. You can do the same with a medivac, drop the shit off and high tail it to your base.

    What on
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    LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Yeah, warp prisms only have like 100 shields and 40 health. It takes 5 in game seconds for a turret to kill one.

    Lemming on
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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    unless their army is a million miles away it is very unlikely that a speedlot drop will be cost effective, assuming the person on the recieving end is not on a high dosage of horse tranquilizers

    DodgeBlan on
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    GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Lemming wrote: »
    Yeah, warp prisms only have like 100 shields and 40 health. It takes 5 in game seconds for a turret to kill one.

    100 health and 40 shields :P but nice try!

    Guek on
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    iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    warp prisms should have structure armor while in pylon mode IMO. or something. they just should be beefier when theyre in pylon mode

    iowa on
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    iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    unless their army is a million miles away it is very unlikely that a speedlot drop will be cost effective, assuming the person on the recieving end is not on a high dosage of horse tranquilizers

    this is true for any drop. any drop your whole army is not gunna be there, and his probably will be nearby. this response doesnt mean anything really.

    iowa on
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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Guek wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Warp prisms are better at escaping.

    this is simply not true. you're going to lose something if you're intending to warp in. you can warp in at the edge of a base and send your units in directly, but whether they're zealots or stalkers, you're not going to be getting back to that warp prism in time to escape if you were actually planning on killing more than one or two workers. transitioning from pylon mode and transport mode also takes time.


    the chief benefit of terran drops is that all infantry is ranged and they have stim. you can dish out a crazy amount of damage in a short amount of time, your units can stay relatively close to the medivac, and you can retreat quickly due to stim speed if need be.

    Per Adel Scott, you just need to plan a few seconds in advance to make sure your warp prism is mobile in time to escape with a full set of troops.

    He and WhiteRa pull it off all the time, and the warp prism outruns most of the things that might try to kill it early in the game.

    No one's arguing that terran drops hit like hell, but in point of fact warp prisms flee more effectively than drop ships if you have good unit control and the speed upgrade.

    kedinik on
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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    iowa wrote: »
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    unless their army is a million miles away it is very unlikely that a speedlot drop will be cost effective, assuming the person on the recieving end is not on a high dosage of horse tranquilizers

    this is true for any drop. any drop your whole army is not gunna be there, and his probably will be nearby. this response doesnt mean anything really.

    Huh? On any map where the terran player can disembark out of sight you are going to have to react very quickly to not lose very many miners.

    DodgeBlan on
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    GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    iowa wrote: »
    the potential for the WP is pretty vast if you have high enough APM

    eh. kinda. are there several options? yes, but unlike other forms of harass, it's very unlikely it's going to be cost effective unless we're talking about an HT drop, which would come in way late in the game anyway. you could put two immortals in there, but holy hell that's a lot of resources wasted when it almost certainly gets shot out of the sky. chargelots are a toss as to whether it'll be cost effective. stalkers are terrible. DTs work once, and that can go so far as winning you the game if you're lucky but if it's fended off, they'll get detection up asap and then you can't use them again.

    i'm not even comparing WPs to just drops. other forms of harass are generally much more cost effective. WP play is usually a toss up.

    Guek on
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    GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    kedinik wrote: »
    No one's arguing that terran drops hit like hell, but in point of fact warp prisms flee more effectively than drop ships if you have good unit control and the speed upgrade.

    how so?

    Guek on
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    peacekeeperpeacekeeper AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    hey i went and had a shower and bam 2 more pages of shit i didn't read because half of you are unable to talk about a starcraft unit without making sweeping generalisations or calling each other dumb for having a different opinion good job nerds

    now going to watch artosis cast that idra v mvp game, and drink some coke and suck on some chocolate malty balls

    peacekeeper on
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    iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Guek wrote: »
    iowa wrote: »
    the potential for the WP is pretty vast if you have high enough APM

    eh. kinda. are there several options? yes, but unlike other forms of harass, it's very unlikely it's going to be cost effective unless we're talking about an HT drop, which would come in way late in the game anyway. you could put two immortals in there, but holy hell that's a lot of resources wasted when it almost certainly gets shot out of the sky. chargelots are a toss as to whether it'll be cost effective. stalkers are terrible. DTs work once, and that can go so far as winning you the game if you're lucky but if it's fended off, they'll get detection up asap and then you can't use them again.

    i'm not even comparing WPs to just drops. other forms of harass are generally much more cost effective. WP play is usually a toss up.

    what do you think about a 4 dt warp in where they are all spread out? that can single handedly win a game if the guys not prepared, even if the game is late.

    iowa on
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    GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    iowa wrote: »
    Guek wrote: »
    iowa wrote: »
    the potential for the WP is pretty vast if you have high enough APM

    eh. kinda. are there several options? yes, but unlike other forms of harass, it's very unlikely it's going to be cost effective unless we're talking about an HT drop, which would come in way late in the game anyway. you could put two immortals in there, but holy hell that's a lot of resources wasted when it almost certainly gets shot out of the sky. chargelots are a toss as to whether it'll be cost effective. stalkers are terrible. DTs work once, and that can go so far as winning you the game if you're lucky but if it's fended off, they'll get detection up asap and then you can't use them again.

    i'm not even comparing WPs to just drops. other forms of harass are generally much more cost effective. WP play is usually a toss up.

    what do you think about a 4 dt warp in where they are all spread out? that can single handedly win a game if the guys not prepared, even if the game is late.

    uh...yeah. that's why i said exactly that.

    Guek on
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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Guek wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    No one's arguing that terran drops hit like hell, but in point of fact warp prisms flee more effectively than drop ships if you have good unit control and the speed upgrade.

    how so?

    They move a lot faster than dropships, is all.

    To be fair, warp prisms are mostly a meta-game play, I think. It's so rare for anyone to drop who isn't terran that you can often catch 'em with their pants down, but you can only do so much damage in half a minute with warpgate units.

    I think AS prefers sending zealots into mineral lines while pressuring the front with his main army, making it difficult to split your army without losing out on at least one front.

    kedinik on
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    GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    kedinik wrote: »
    Guek wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    No one's arguing that terran drops hit like hell, but in point of fact warp prisms flee more effectively than drop ships if you have good unit control and the speed upgrade.

    how so?

    They move a lot faster than dropships, is all.

    To be fair, warp prisms are mostly a meta-game play, I think. It's so rare for anyone to drop who isn't terran that you can often catch 'em with their pants down, but you can only do so much damage in half a minute with warpgate units.

    I think AS prefers sending zealots into mineral lines while pressuring the front with his main army, making it difficult to split your army without losing out on at least one front.

    OH, you mean if they have the speed upgrade. Ah, didn't realize that. In that case, I'd probably agree with you, but I still think terran infantry's range and speed is pretty sick and helps em get the hell outa there if need be

    Guek on
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    iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Guek wrote: »
    iowa wrote: »
    Guek wrote: »
    iowa wrote: »
    the potential for the WP is pretty vast if you have high enough APM

    eh. kinda. are there several options? yes, but unlike other forms of harass, it's very unlikely it's going to be cost effective unless we're talking about an HT drop, which would come in way late in the game anyway. you could put two immortals in there, but holy hell that's a lot of resources wasted when it almost certainly gets shot out of the sky. chargelots are a toss as to whether it'll be cost effective. stalkers are terrible. DTs work once, and that can go so far as winning you the game if you're lucky but if it's fended off, they'll get detection up asap and then you can't use them again.

    i'm not even comparing WPs to just drops. other forms of harass are generally much more cost effective. WP play is usually a toss up.

    what do you think about a 4 dt warp in where they are all spread out? that can single handedly win a game if the guys not prepared, even if the game is late.

    uh...yeah. that's why i said exactly that.

    my bad. not sure why i made that post actually.

    my response is that you're generalizing in a game where generalizations don't apply. 'it's very unlikely it's going to be cost effective' is too big of a generalization considering that the effectiveness of any kind of drop/ any kind of harassment is going to depend on many many variables. Is it 2 pronged? Is there a smooth transition if it fails? etc.

    The warp prism has immense potential and it doesnt make sense to make generalizations about it having cost ineffective drops is my point

    iowa on
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    TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    We should all discuss how zerg drops are awful and how muta is the only zerg harassment option and only comes into play mid-game.

    TheBog on
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    iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    i don't even remember if in the white-ra games we were watching the other day he used WPs to great success, but the mere fact that he's using them tells me that they don't need to be changed right now and they do have a place.

    I can't remember if he was succesful in his use with them during those games that were broadcasted, but the games we watch him play are just the very tip of the ice burg, and if white-ra has determined that WPs have a place in his build or his style then I don't think they are UP, OP, or imba.

    iowa on
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    ImpyrockerImpyrocker Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Whose gonna claim the new thread?

    Impyrocker on
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    SeguerSeguer of the Void Sydney, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Let's leave the crap in this thread, shall we?

    NEW THREAD: http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=136548

    Seguer on
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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    TheBog wrote: »
    Why the hell are you people comparing 2 full medivacs to a warp prism with a single HT in it? Who the fuck uses 2 full medivacs to raid a single mineral line?
    If a Terran drops 8 stimmed marauders in the mineral line you've got to worry about losing your Nexus, not just your workers.

    PantsB on
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    StreltsyStreltsy Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    hey i went and had a shower and bam 2 more pages of shit i didn't read because half of you are unable to talk about a starcraft unit without making sweeping generalisations or calling each other dumb for having a different opinion good job nerds

    now going to watch artosis cast that idra v mvp game, and drink some coke and suck on some chocolate malty balls

    Yeah I did that same for the last 90 or so pages. BUT, I think I got something interesting for you here:

    Terran have mules, which everyone knows are like x999.1 times better than all other macro mechanics, and marines, and tanks, and medics that are dropships at the same time. The more I think about, the more I think they're imbalanced.

    Sorry if it's been discussed, haven't seen it brought here or on TL.

    Thoughts?

    Streltsy on
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    GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Streltsy wrote: »
    hey i went and had a shower and bam 2 more pages of shit i didn't read because half of you are unable to talk about a starcraft unit without making sweeping generalisations or calling each other dumb for having a different opinion good job nerds

    now going to watch artosis cast that idra v mvp game, and drink some coke and suck on some chocolate malty balls

    Yeah I did that same for the last 90 or so pages. BUT, I think I got something interesting for you here:

    Terran have mules, which everyone knows are like x999.1 times better than all other macro mechanics, and marines, and tanks, and medics that are dropships at the same time. The more I think about, the more I think they're imbalanced.

    Sorry if it's been discussed, haven't seen it brought here or on TL.

    Thoughts?

    it's been brought up.

    its completely understandable why mules come off as imbalanced. i've cursed them many times myself. however, the reality is that the game isn't horribly skewed towards terran as is. both pvt and zvt matchups remain very competitive, so it's probably not as imbalanced or OP as it comes across.

    Guek on
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    fadingathedgesfadingathedges Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    yall are racist

    fadingathedges on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    What wrote: »
    I believe he means the warp prism. However, that's still not any good argument. Why did we ever make shuttles?

    Because in BW shuttles came out of a building that didn't have any units you'd want to be constantly producing the way SC2 does.

    I mean, look at the robo facility. If you're going Immortals or Colossi, you're going to pretty much be constantly making them unless you decide to go to something else. In which case yes, then warp prisms are a good choice.

    But in BW the only units out of the robo facility was reavers, shuttles, and observers. Reavers you only needed one or two because they were usually used in concert with shuttles, I'm fairly sure you never made them in significant numbers. Observers you only needed to make the amount you needed and to replace them. All of that coupled to make your robotics facilities largely idle for large portions of the game which meant that using time on them to make more shuttles was no big deal.

    edit: whoops didn't realise new thread

    Dhalphir on
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