Well, feel free to explain it to me then, I understand there are things you can do to survive longer (Zhonya's, summoners, etc) but really if they decide they want you dead first you're probably just going to die.
I mean that's true for any champion (heavy focus in 5v5 = death) but I feel like it's more true for Kennen than say a ranged carry or an AP nuker with long range, Kennen really needs to get up in people's faces to get off his damage/CC.
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
Kennen: Strong lane presence, easy skillshot, mobility lots of burst AoE and CC, very squishy and suicidal in teamfights, not really a late game champion (although obviously anybody is good if you get superfed early)
Anivia: Lots of AoE damage, slow, stun, huge burst damage, amazing utility with wall, good survivability in lane due to egg passive, they call her CryOP for a reason. One of the best AP carries currently in the game. High skill ceiling however with a slow skillshot Q and wall placement.
Ezreal: Heavily skillshot-based high skill ceiling AD carry, has mobility and great poke but low range means it can be tough to balls to the wall DPS in teamfights depending on team comps. Perhaps the most difficult to play AD carry up there with Corki.
Malzahar: Nigh-unparalleled single target burst, hard counter to Vladimir, AoE damage and silence in teamfights. Fairly high skill ceiling with landing his Q which can be important for killing people with his combo. Very underutilized champion IMO who is finally starting to catch on.
Mostly true.
Kennen has absurdly strong harass and great lane presence. It's really easy to get fed on him, and once he gets fed he ends games. His only real weakness is that he needs to be up close to do his shit, but between Lightning Rush and how good Rylai's and Hourglass are on him, he can generally get away with it.
Anivia has a great combo, but against certain champs (ie guys with shields and blinks) she gets ruined pre-6. Once she hits 6 she can be a force, but she has a horrible time dodging skillshots and so tends to die alot. Also one of the champs in the game that can actively fuck over their own team with shitty wall placement.
Ezreal IMO kind of blows. AP Ez can win his lane without too much issue, but fed AP Ez doesn't really do much come mid-game. AD Ez is much, much harder to do much with these days but can still somewhat carry.
Malzahar is extraordinarily underrated and one of the best 1v1 champions in the game. If he gets *anyone* in his full combo they flat out die and it's very hard to stop because the range on his ult is so long. You basically need to blink out of the pool as soon as it drops or you're dead. However, he's slow, he has no escapes, and he also has a large-ish hitbox so god forbid the enemy has a good diver. QSS's and CC in general can ruin his day.
IMHO, I would go Kennen>Malz=Anivia>Ez.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Well, feel free to explain it to me then, I understand there are things you can do to survive longer (Zhonya's, summoners, etc) but really if they decide they want you dead you're probably just going to die.
I mean that's true for any champion (heavy focus in 5v5 = death) but I feel like it's more true for Kennen than say a ranged carry or an AP nuker with long range, Kennen really needs to get up in people's faces to get off his damage/CC.
His skillshot is something like 700 range, his W is 800, and his ult has the radius of Amumu's (compare this to Fiddle's ult, which actually requires you to be in the middle of the enemy team).
If you LR at the same time you ult (not to hit people with LR, but to gain speed to keep you in the right position), you can keep people inside one sector of your ult without actually going right into the middle of them. After that, W and skillshot can continue to hit from range.
Sure, what tends to happen is that Kennen gets fed in lanes and in teamfights dives right into the middle of enemy teams to try and hit everyone with his ult, and then either wins or dies depending on coordination, but you don't have to play him that way. You can stay a short distance behind the tank and still put out good damage and a lot of crowd control.
The biggest problem with Malzahar is that this one item counters him really hard. Like, in WW's case, QSS is good but not necessary and doesn't horrifically affect the rest of his skillset. For Malz, your squishy targets getting a QSS is a double whammy, since your only really good CC has a cooldown about as long as QSS, and all your damage against that person is greatly reduced. 8(
His skillshot is something like 700 range, his W is 800, and his ult has the radius of Amumu's (compare this to Fiddle's ult, which actually requires you to be in the middle of the enemy team).
If you LR at the same time you ult (not to hit people with LR, but to gain speed to keep you in the right position), you can keep people inside one sector of your ult without actually going right into the middle of them. After that, W and skillshot can continue to hit from range.
Eh, I'm not sure I buy it. I mean Kennen isn't going to be able to hit high-priority targets with this playstyle if the enemy team is positioned correctly, he will only be able to hit tanks or champions who run right up to your tanks. And if you're just hitting tanks and such you might as well play a ranged carry because they can do a lot more sustained deeps.
I still see Kennen as kind of a suicide bomber, that's not necessarily a bad thing, his ult is actually really frontloaded as well as his E and W, he'll do a ton of damage and crowd control in the first seconds of a fight and if he dies after he's blown his load, no biggie, sustained DPS isn't really his job, it's the job of the AD carry.
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I'm kinda liking the idea of a first item Philo Stone on Sivir, seems like it would make blowing mana to CS a no-brainer, and since Sivir wants the game to go late, it should pay for itself anyway. Seems like a lot more efficient of an option than wasting gold on Manamune or something stupid like that.
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I figure when you have 40+ percent lifesteal then getting mitigation is probably a good idea, need a Last Whisper for sure though.
Ever since I got good at that Atlanta Tristana death combo I feel like I've found a secret cheat code to winning my lane every game, I'm going to try it in ranked soon
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My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
His skillshot is something like 700 range, his W is 800, and his ult has the radius of Amumu's (compare this to Fiddle's ult, which actually requires you to be in the middle of the enemy team).
If you LR at the same time you ult (not to hit people with LR, but to gain speed to keep you in the right position), you can keep people inside one sector of your ult without actually going right into the middle of them. After that, W and skillshot can continue to hit from range.
Eh, I'm not sure I buy it. I mean Kennen isn't going to be able to hit high-priority targets with this playstyle if the enemy team is positioned correctly, he will only be able to hit tanks or champions who run right up to your tanks. And if you're just hitting tanks and such you might as well play a ranged carry because they can do a lot more sustained deeps.
I still see Kennen as kind of a suicide bomber, that's not necessarily a bad thing, his ult is actually really frontloaded as well as his E and W, he'll do a ton of damage and crowd control in the first seconds of a fight and if he dies after he's blown his load, no biggie, sustained DPS isn't really his job, it's the job of the AD carry.
Have about 200 games with Kennen and I can 2nd this.
Kennen initiates. If he survives initiating, he can certainly back up and throw pokes and play CC engine... but, initiators die sometimes. Just no getting around it. Properly built you can and will get away most of the time, but "Suicide Bomber" is pretty much his job description.
Anyway, any team that isn't killing Kennie as an absolute top priority lost the game a long time before champion select...
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Karma and singed seem like a match-up made in heaven
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
So someone asked me to play a carry, and I realized I have none purchased cause I hate most of them.
So on a whim i bought caitlyn and will be giving that a shot.
Caitlyn doesn't have the damage per second that Tristana or Corki can get, but she is bloody great in the lane and you can use that to easily get last hits and shit on people. While I wouldn't pick her as a carry in ranked I'd definitely recommend her to people who want to try ranged carries because she is safe and fun.
Caitlyn's passive equates to a 12.5% dps bonus when attacking from the brush, at's a pretty good steroid. Albeit situational.
You can't count on that at all.
90% of the time you will not be firing from brush (for teamfights).
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
Yeah well, good or not shes fun as shit and I had a good time playing her. I lost, but it wasnt due to me, chalk it up to the fact no one on my team could do close to half the damage I did, and one of our teammates was soraka...
And I will pick fun over "good" anyday cause I have noticed "good" changes so damn much its better to pick someone and run with it. Looks like based on the guide I read beforehand that she has already received some major buffs.
Good luck hitting anyone with a brain with your Q and having your R kill a squishy target
But she is damn fun
She'd be good if they removed the 1 second charge up on her Q and all the delay on her ultimate. There's no reason for it at all, it's not even a strong ultimate.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Yes attack him!
That makes the most sense.
The wind-up time for her Q makes it really god damn difficult to land on someone, unless you use it as a trade(you alpha me, I punch you in the mouth).
Tristana has as much lane presence as Caitlyn, if not more, and she actually does damage late game
I understand that Caitlyn isn't Tryndamere or Gangplank so you would never actually play her, but that doesn't make her bad.
I've played her.
She's awful. You can't hit champions with her Q unless they're bad or don't have boots yet. Her ultimate is single target with a delay and deals poor damage that can be intercepted. Her net is a poor escape tool and her traps deal poor damage are extremely limited in number and aren't even invisible.
Tristana has as much lane presence as Caitlyn, if not more, and she actually does damage late game
I understand that Caitlyn isn't Tryndamere or Gangplank so you would never actually play her, but that doesn't make her bad.
I've played her.
She's awful. You can't hit champions with her Q unless they're bad or don't have boots yet. Her ultimate is single target with a delay and deals poor damage that can be intercepted. Her net is a poor escape tool and her traps deal poor damage are extremely limited in number and aren't even invisible.
She is bad.
I suppose it's impossible to hit people with Cho'Gath's rupture, Ezreal's ult, Ashe's ult from anywhere but point blank, Pantheon's jump, Nidalee's spear, Amumu's bandage, Blitz's hook, etc etc.
Her Q also does amazing damage. 200 base + 1.3 from AD is better than Ashe's volley...It's a fantastic poke, and does plenty of damage in teamfights.
Net being a poor escape tool hardly means anything when you consider Caitlyn's fantastic range. Or do you think that Lux is terrible as well, because she lacks an escape tool?
I don't know how you can say her ultimate does poor damage. 700 + 2.0 from bonus AD is way better damage than a Tristana or Ashe ulti. It's good for ganking, good for opening or finishing a teamfight, good for just poking with it's really low CD...
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Tristana has as much lane presence as Caitlyn, if not more, and she actually does damage late game
I understand that Caitlyn isn't Tryndamere or Gangplank so you would never actually play her, but that doesn't make her bad.
I've played her.
She's awful. You can't hit champions with her Q unless they're bad or don't have boots yet. Her ultimate is single target with a delay and deals poor damage that can be intercepted. Her net is a poor escape tool and her traps deal poor damage are extremely limited in number and aren't even invisible.
She is bad.
Her ult deals very respectable damage now, Oh noes a delay? But it can't be avoided, and still tracks you out of line of sight? Yeah big deal. Her net lets her dash over walls...such a horrible escape move. Oh AND it slows an enemy? Her traps deal poor damage? yeah...not true, but even if it were, they still root the enemy on top of doing damage.
Hey want to know a great way to kill someone who has a GA or got ulted by Zilean? Drop a trap as they are ressing. :twisted:
She has no steroid? yeah, but she has more utility. So...riot didn't make just another ranged carry clone?
As usual people have their head up their ass about new champs. I expect in a month for people to suddenly "discover" how awesome Caitlyn is. Similarly to Lux, Swain, Trundle (sorry guys his jungling is still amazing), and Irelia in the solo lane.
But as usual, this is par for the course and I expect identical reactions once Karma is released regardless of how viable she is or not.
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I think the trap should be invisible. Or have a HUGE range. Its kind of silly not to, what good is a trap if they can see it? Walk around....
Didn't know there was such a big disparity on cait opinions though. Again, however, you know these things will change.
Depending on your lane you can use the traps very effectively. I agree that having them be less visible would be better. However if you use them offensively (Throwing them down during teamfights) you can get some nice kills.
Additionally they are great for setting up a defensive getaway if you think you may need one.
When I take Caitlyn to the solo lane i'll often trap the enemy bushes to punish them every time they try to go in there to try and flank me. Or i'll put them in my bushes to protect myself if I don't have a ward. They are also great for alerting you to incoming ganks from the river bushes, Warwick comes down, gets trapped, gets pissed and leaves because I know he is there, and I immediately replace the trap.
In mid you can use it to force the enemy to stay in certain parts of the lane. Throwing down a couple traps on one side of mid will force them to stick to the other side which can set them up for a gank easily from your jungler.
Don't be afraid to plop them down right out in the open, It forces your enemy to not only deal with your stupidly long auto attack range, but to always have to be mindful about where they are moving to avoid you.
You can also trap the side bushes in mid to help protect against ganks as well.
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I mean that's true for any champion (heavy focus in 5v5 = death) but I feel like it's more true for Kennen than say a ranged carry or an AP nuker with long range, Kennen really needs to get up in people's faces to get off his damage/CC.
Kennen has absurdly strong harass and great lane presence. It's really easy to get fed on him, and once he gets fed he ends games. His only real weakness is that he needs to be up close to do his shit, but between Lightning Rush and how good Rylai's and Hourglass are on him, he can generally get away with it.
Anivia has a great combo, but against certain champs (ie guys with shields and blinks) she gets ruined pre-6. Once she hits 6 she can be a force, but she has a horrible time dodging skillshots and so tends to die alot. Also one of the champs in the game that can actively fuck over their own team with shitty wall placement.
Ezreal IMO kind of blows. AP Ez can win his lane without too much issue, but fed AP Ez doesn't really do much come mid-game. AD Ez is much, much harder to do much with these days but can still somewhat carry.
Malzahar is extraordinarily underrated and one of the best 1v1 champions in the game. If he gets *anyone* in his full combo they flat out die and it's very hard to stop because the range on his ult is so long. You basically need to blink out of the pool as soon as it drops or you're dead. However, he's slow, he has no escapes, and he also has a large-ish hitbox so god forbid the enemy has a good diver. QSS's and CC in general can ruin his day.
IMHO, I would go Kennen>Malz=Anivia>Ez.
If you LR at the same time you ult (not to hit people with LR, but to gain speed to keep you in the right position), you can keep people inside one sector of your ult without actually going right into the middle of them. After that, W and skillshot can continue to hit from range.
Sure, what tends to happen is that Kennen gets fed in lanes and in teamfights dives right into the middle of enemy teams to try and hit everyone with his ult, and then either wins or dies depending on coordination, but you don't have to play him that way. You can stay a short distance behind the tank and still put out good damage and a lot of crowd control.
The biggest problem with Malzahar is that this one item counters him really hard. Like, in WW's case, QSS is good but not necessary and doesn't horrifically affect the rest of his skillset. For Malz, your squishy targets getting a QSS is a double whammy, since your only really good CC has a cooldown about as long as QSS, and all your damage against that person is greatly reduced. 8(
I love you too man!
edit: Monday morning, time to go jobhunting.
Eh, I'm not sure I buy it. I mean Kennen isn't going to be able to hit high-priority targets with this playstyle if the enemy team is positioned correctly, he will only be able to hit tanks or champions who run right up to your tanks. And if you're just hitting tanks and such you might as well play a ranged carry because they can do a lot more sustained deeps.
I still see Kennen as kind of a suicide bomber, that's not necessarily a bad thing, his ult is actually really frontloaded as well as his E and W, he'll do a ton of damage and crowd control in the first seconds of a fight and if he dies after he's blown his load, no biggie, sustained DPS isn't really his job, it's the job of the AD carry.
http://www.solomid.net/livestream.php?s=6415
16 minute Thirster, Zerker Greaves, Philo Stone, multiple wards/pots on Sivir.
With only two assists by that point and no kills
That is some motherfucking CSing.
I'm kinda liking the idea of a first item Philo Stone on Sivir, seems like it would make blowing mana to CS a no-brainer, and since Sivir wants the game to go late, it should pay for itself anyway. Seems like a lot more efficient of an option than wasting gold on Manamune or something stupid like that.
Ever since I got good at that Atlanta Tristana death combo I feel like I've found a secret cheat code to winning my lane every game, I'm going to try it in ranked soon
Have about 200 games with Kennen and I can 2nd this.
Kennen initiates. If he survives initiating, he can certainly back up and throw pokes and play CC engine... but, initiators die sometimes. Just no getting around it. Properly built you can and will get away most of the time, but "Suicide Bomber" is pretty much his job description.
Anyway, any team that isn't killing Kennie as an absolute top priority lost the game a long time before champion select...
So on a whim i bought caitlyn and will be giving that a shot.
Bad choice or worst choice?
She has no physical steroids. Pick a champion that has passives/abilities that help their auto attack ability.
I'm dead serious."
You can't count on that at all.
90% of the time you will not be firing from brush (for teamfights).
And I will pick fun over "good" anyday cause I have noticed "good" changes so damn much its better to pick someone and run with it. Looks like based on the guide I read beforehand that she has already received some major buffs.
But she is damn fun
She'd be good if they removed the 1 second charge up on her Q and all the delay on her ultimate. There's no reason for it at all, it's not even a strong ultimate.
That makes the most sense.
The wind-up time for her Q makes it really god damn difficult to land on someone, unless you use it as a trade(you alpha me, I punch you in the mouth).
Her R blarggggh fuck you tank block
I've played her.
She's awful. You can't hit champions with her Q unless they're bad or don't have boots yet. Her ultimate is single target with a delay and deals poor damage that can be intercepted. Her net is a poor escape tool and her traps deal poor damage are extremely limited in number and aren't even invisible.
She is bad.
Her net's a combo dash/slow, also great.
They buffed her ult's damage and now it actually hits pretty hard.
Her Q also does amazing damage. 200 base + 1.3 from AD is better than Ashe's volley...It's a fantastic poke, and does plenty of damage in teamfights.
Net being a poor escape tool hardly means anything when you consider Caitlyn's fantastic range. Or do you think that Lux is terrible as well, because she lacks an escape tool?
I don't know how you can say her ultimate does poor damage. 700 + 2.0 from bonus AD is way better damage than a Tristana or Ashe ulti. It's good for ganking, good for opening or finishing a teamfight, good for just poking with it's really low CD...
Her ult deals very respectable damage now, Oh noes a delay? But it can't be avoided, and still tracks you out of line of sight? Yeah big deal. Her net lets her dash over walls...such a horrible escape move. Oh AND it slows an enemy? Her traps deal poor damage? yeah...not true, but even if it were, they still root the enemy on top of doing damage.
Hey want to know a great way to kill someone who has a GA or got ulted by Zilean? Drop a trap as they are ressing. :twisted:
She has no steroid? yeah, but she has more utility. So...riot didn't make just another ranged carry clone?
As usual people have their head up their ass about new champs. I expect in a month for people to suddenly "discover" how awesome Caitlyn is. Similarly to Lux, Swain, Trundle (sorry guys his jungling is still amazing), and Irelia in the solo lane.
But as usual, this is par for the course and I expect identical reactions once Karma is released regardless of how viable she is or not.
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But of course we had a leaver who disconnected at level 1 and never came back
Didn't know there was such a big disparity on cait opinions though. Again, however, you know these things will change.
Depending on your lane you can use the traps very effectively. I agree that having them be less visible would be better. However if you use them offensively (Throwing them down during teamfights) you can get some nice kills.
Additionally they are great for setting up a defensive getaway if you think you may need one.
When I take Caitlyn to the solo lane i'll often trap the enemy bushes to punish them every time they try to go in there to try and flank me. Or i'll put them in my bushes to protect myself if I don't have a ward. They are also great for alerting you to incoming ganks from the river bushes, Warwick comes down, gets trapped, gets pissed and leaves because I know he is there, and I immediately replace the trap.
In mid you can use it to force the enemy to stay in certain parts of the lane. Throwing down a couple traps on one side of mid will force them to stick to the other side which can set them up for a gank easily from your jungler.
Don't be afraid to plop them down right out in the open, It forces your enemy to not only deal with your stupidly long auto attack range, but to always have to be mindful about where they are moving to avoid you.
You can also trap the side bushes in mid to help protect against ganks as well.
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Still think Tristana is better in every way.
What about AP tristana?