Helicopter Parents, iPod Gunmen, and Paedophiles: The Hysteria of the Modern World

CaptainNemo

I was accused of being a sex offender today.

I was walking home from the teriyaki shop with armfuls of groceries when a man jumped out of his car and claimed I had chased his daughter, only to be scared off by the family dog.

An hour later I'm here, typing this up, clear of everything. It turns out the girl saw me pressing the face button on the iPod in my pocket and thought I had a gun.

Now, I'm not perfect. But what kind of world do we live in where innocent folks can walk the same path they've walked a hundred times and then nearly get arrested? I've had an odd relationship with religion for a long time, but I must ask just what god let's this sort of thing happen.

Sorry, just have to vent.

jothki

Didn't we have a thread on this sort of thing like a month or more ago? Might be worth dragging it back up.

CaptainNemo

What should I search for?

DisruptorX2

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

matt has a problem

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Now, I'm not perfect. But what kind of world do we live in where innocent folks can walk the same path they've walked a hundred times and then nearly get arrested? I've had an odd relationship with religion for a long time, but I must ask just what god let's this sort of thing happen.

I'm sure the father asked the same question about his daughter being chased. While the experience was unpleasant I'm sure, all that happened was you looked like someone else. This isn't the world out to get you, it's a case of mistaken identity.

DevoutlyApathetic

CaptainNemo wrote: »

It turns out the girl saw me pressing the face button on the iPod in my pocket and thought I had a gun.

If she accused you of being a sex offender she didn't think it was a gun in your pocket.

KalTorak

Wasn't there an op-ed about this recently?

fake edit: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073752925629440.html

I wish there were some links to the incidents mentioned, they sound worth a looksee.

Thanatos

matthasaproblem wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Now, I'm not perfect. But what kind of world do we live in where innocent folks can walk the same path they've walked a hundred times and then nearly get arrested? I've had an odd relationship with religion for a long time, but I must ask just what god let's this sort of thing happen.

I'm sure the father asked the same question about his daughter being chased. While the experience was unpleasant I'm sure, all that happened was you looked like someone else. This isn't the world out to get you, it's a case of mistaken identity.

Yeah, and as we all know, nothing bad can ever come of that.

You should never be afraid to chew out freaked-out helicopter parents for being violently overprotective shitheels.

Zombiemambo

Don't worry this girl fell down an elevator shaft a few minutes later.

CaptainNemo

DevoutlyApathetic wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

It turns out the girl saw me pressing the face button on the iPod in my pocket and thought I had a gun.

If she accused you of being a sex offender she didn't think it was a gun in your pocket.

Yeah, it's all a real fucking joke when someone thinks your an attempted racist. Fortunatley an officer took care of everything and explained to the guy that everything just got blown out of proportion.

Amen to that, Disruptor.

CaptainNemo

Thanatos wrote: »

matthasaproblem wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Now, I'm not perfect. But what kind of world do we live in where innocent folks can walk the same path they've walked a hundred times and then nearly get arrested? I've had an odd relationship with religion for a long time, but I must ask just what god let's this sort of thing happen.

I'm sure the father asked the same question about his daughter being chased. While the experience was unpleasant I'm sure, all that happened was you looked like someone else. This isn't the world out to get you, it's a case of mistaken identity.

Yeah, and as we all know, nothing bad can ever come of that.

You should never be afraid to chew out freaked-out helicopter parents for being violently overprotective shitheels.

I live in Washington state in the south. That article simultaneously infuriates me and scares me.

DevoutlyApathetic

CaptainNemo wrote: »

DevoutlyApathetic wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

It turns out the girl saw me pressing the face button on the iPod in my pocket and thought I had a gun.

If she accused you of being a sex offender she didn't think it was a gun in your pocket.

Yeah, it's all a real fucking joke when someone thinks your an attempted racist. Fortunatley an officer took care of everything and explained to the guy that everything just got blown out of proportion.

Amen to that, Disruptor.

Unless you've left major parts of the story out things were not "blown out of proportion" but "fabricated entirely". Which leads me to think the girl has other issues going on. You've run into a crazy person, you really can't do much but laugh and try and avoid them in the future.

While obviously an autocorrect error the term "attempted racist" is also hilarious.

Thanatos

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Thanatos wrote: »

matthasaproblem wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Now, I'm not perfect. But what kind of world do we live in where innocent folks can walk the same path they've walked a hundred times and then nearly get arrested? I've had an odd relationship with religion for a long time, but I must ask just what god let's this sort of thing happen.

I'm sure the father asked the same question about his daughter being chased. While the experience was unpleasant I'm sure, all that happened was you looked like someone else. This isn't the world out to get you, it's a case of mistaken identity.

Yeah, and as we all know, nothing bad can ever come of that.

You should never be afraid to chew out freaked-out helicopter parents for being violently overprotective shitheels.

I live in Washington state in the south. That article simultaneously infuriates me and scares me.

Right, but violently overprotective shitheel wouldn't even begin to think of how throwing out random accusations at other people because his super-special unique snowflake of a retard daughter decided that you had a gun. Instead of asking "are you sure," he just calls the cops.

Really, he should be fined for malicious prosecution.

CaptainNemo

Yes it is. Anyway, what I heard from the deputy was that the kid was nine, ran screaming down the sideroad to her grandmother, who then called the father, who then began circling the block to find me.

Thanatos

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Yes it is. Anyway, what I heard from the deputy was that the kid was nine, ran screaming down the sideroad to her grandmother, who then called the father, who then began circling the block to find me.

Only a parent would believe that a fucking nine-year-old was a good source for an accurate description of events.

Shogun

Thanatos wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Yes it is. Anyway, what I heard from the deputy was that the kid was nine, ran screaming down the sideroad to her grandmother, who then called the father, who then began circling the block to find me.

Only a parent would believe that a fucking nine-year-old was a good source for an accurate description of events.

especially one of the myriad of idiot parents who believe their child is God's unique and special snowflake.

CaptainNemo

I get the guy was just trying to protect his kid, but man, I'm still angry.

The Cat

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

CaptainNemo

For what it's worth, I haven't shaved in a few days having just gotten over a cold, so I probably look like hell.

matt has a problem

Shogun wrote: »

Thanatos wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Yes it is. Anyway, what I heard from the deputy was that the kid was nine, ran screaming down the sideroad to her grandmother, who then called the father, who then began circling the block to find me.

Only a parent would believe that a fucking nine-year-old was a good source for an accurate description of events.

especially one of the myriad of idiot parents who believe their child is God's unique and special snowflake.

Yeah, that's right, when your daughter tells you something, tell her she's lying. Make sure that when it's finally something important, she doesn't come to you because she doesn't think you'll believe her. The father overreacted, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have reacted at all.

KalTorak

The Cat wrote: »

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

It seems to me that the mindset Disruptor mentions is actually a rather extreme acceptance of "that's just how men are" - all of them. So keep them away from my kids.

The Cat

Thanatos wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Yes it is. Anyway, what I heard from the deputy was that the kid was nine, ran screaming down the sideroad to her grandmother, who then called the father, who then began circling the block to find me.

Only a parent would believe that a fucking nine-year-old was a good source for an accurate description of events.

You know, there's a much bigger problem with adults dismissing, ignoring, or outright punishing their children for "lying" when they report abuse that I think you're overlooking here. There's most often a relative or friend involved in such cases, but still.

Loklar

The Cat wrote: »

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

I can't tell if you're questioning OP's account of the matter or if you think OP was dishonestly (or stupidly) accused of a crime.

I'm no paleo-feminist. But something about OP's story makes me think that there is something we're not hearing. The reaction of the girl and the parents seems a little too over the top.

But I could be wrong. Certainly some people over-react.

CaptainNemo

It's pretty simple. I go walking with my headphones on to the teriyaki place. I see a bus dropping off kids. I wave to the busrider, give friendly nod of the head to the girl, and keep walking. I get to the store, eat some Bugles, pick up my food, and leave. I walk back, man jumps out, and then the cops get involved.

I'm sorry if I give off the vibe of paedophilia to you.

The Cat

KalTorak wrote: »

The Cat wrote: »

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

It seems to me that the mindset Disruptor mentions is actually a rather extreme acceptance of "that's just how men are" - all of them. So keep them away from my kids.

Yeah, could be. That's even sadder.

edit: i was questioning disruptor's post, loklar, because I find that kind of knee-jerk ablooo-everyone-hates-men stuff to be lazy, ignorant, and honestly somewhat offensive.

FroThulhu

The Cat wrote: »

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

Uhhh... what the hell is this?

I don't think the 'traditional model' is that of a pedophile.

Thanatos

The Cat wrote: »

Thanatos wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Yes it is. Anyway, what I heard from the deputy was that the kid was nine, ran screaming down the sideroad to her grandmother, who then called the father, who then began circling the block to find me.

Only a parent would believe that a fucking nine-year-old was a good source for an accurate description of events.

You know, there's a much bigger problem with adults dismissing, ignoring, or outright punishing their children for "lying" when they report abuse that I think you're overlooking here. There's most often a relative or friend involved in such cases, but still.

"Often" a relative or friend involved? Try almost always.

And there's a difference between "I saw a man with a gun going nuts in front of dozens of other kids and a bus driver who did absolutely nothing about it, and saw nothing at all wrong" and "Uncle Skeezy touched me in my no-no place."

DisruptorX2

FroThulhu wrote: »

Uhhh... what the hell is this?

I don't think the 'traditional model' is that of a pedophile.

Of course not. Nor is it that every stranger on the streets is out to abduct, rape, and murder your children.

Shogun

matthasaproblem wrote: »

Shogun wrote: »

Thanatos wrote: »

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Yes it is. Anyway, what I heard from the deputy was that the kid was nine, ran screaming down the sideroad to her grandmother, who then called the father, who then began circling the block to find me.

Only a parent would believe that a fucking nine-year-old was a good source for an accurate description of events.

especially one of the myriad of idiot parents who believe their child is God's unique and special snowflake.

Yeah, that's right, when your daughter tells you something, tell her she's lying. Make sure that when it's finally something important, she doesn't come to you because she doesn't think you'll believe her. The father overreacted, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't have reacted at all.

Boy who cried wolf?

The young lady was wrong in this occasion. How many other occasions have their been? How many more will there be? Will she learn anything from all this?

L Ron Howard

Well, if you'd stop trying to give out free candy in the back of your unmarked, windowless van, I'm sure no one would have a problem...



But seriously, it could have been worse. You know police have easily killed people for having things in their pocket. Glad you weren't arrested or shot.

LadyM

The Cat wrote: »

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

I think part of it is turmoil over what "masculinity" is. For many decades there's been this thing where girls can do "boy-like" activities and that's okay (maybe frowned upon by some, but generally accepted), but boys can't do "girl-like" activities. I.e., there are tomboy girls who like to get muddy and fall out of trees and wear pants, but if a boy likes to play with dolls, has pink as his favorite color, or wear dresses, there must be something WRONG with him.

So then, if society sees loving kids (ahem, platonically) and nurturing them as "something women like to do", then it immediately becomes suspicious when a MAN wants to hang around kids. OMG, he must want to fuck them! Because that is a MAN trait, wanting to fuck everything in sight!! OMG!!

I find it really interesting that despite the increasing portrayal of men being close to their own kids--in commercials, TV shows, and movies and such--there is still the stigma of a boy playing with a baby doll.

As far as the OP's specific experience goes, the little girl was probably being a typical little kid (inaccurate and given to hyperbole) and the parents were paranoid. Sorry you had to deal with that.

FroThulhu

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

FroThulhu wrote: »

Uhhh... what the hell is this?

I don't think the 'traditional model' is that of a pedophile.

Of course not. Nor is it that every stranger on the streets is out to abduct, rape, and murder your children.

I was addressing a particular statement. It was... questionable at best.

The Cat

FroThulhu wrote: »

The Cat wrote: »

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

Uhhh... what the hell is this?

I don't think the 'traditional model' is that of a pedophile.

Well thank goodness I didn't say that!

The traditional model of masculinity that you see around the traps is based on a pyramid power structure, where you're defined by being better than other groups - those other jerks with their stupid hair, other races, women, children, whatever. It instills in some people, particularly those lower down the ladder, a creeping sense of inferiority that is usually just irritating but sometimes leads to violent or predatory acting out, control-seeking, etc. Sometimes it manifests as sexual abuse, domestic violence, and dudes snapping and shooting people they think have wronged them (ex boss, ex wife, the IRS...). In this case, paranoid dad's seeking control of his surroundings by aggressively going after the OP, who he sees as a threatening stranger, but he's also buying into that model by making assumptions about how the OP must be. Disruptor's comment about how "everyone hates masculinity" immediately made me think, "no, everyone hates that kind of masculinity, because its stupid and does nothing but create drama and misery".

CaptainNemo

L Ron Howard wrote: »

But seriously, it could have been worse. You know police have easily killed people for having things in their pocket. Glad you weren't arrested or shot.

I know.

I'm still kind of spooked, since the officer said they live near by. I just hope the dad has cooled down and knows I'm innocent.

FroThulhu

The Cat wrote: »

FroThulhu wrote: »

The Cat wrote: »

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

Uhhh... what the hell is this?

I don't think the 'traditional model' is that of a pedophile.

Well thank goodness I didn't say that!

The traditional model of masculinity that you see around the traps is based on a pyramid power structure, where you're defined by being better than other groups - those other jerks with their stupid hair, other races, women, children, whatever. It instills in some people, particularly those lower down the ladder, a creeping sense of inferiority that is usually just irritating but sometimes leads to violent or predatory acting out, control-seeking, etc. Sometimes it manifests as sexual abuse, domestic violence, and dudes snapping and shooting people they think have wronged them (ex boss, ex wife, the IRS...). In this case, paranoid dad's seeking control of his surroundings by aggressively going after the OP, who he sees as a threatening stranger, but he's also buying into that model by making assumptions about how the OP must be. Disruptor's comment about how "everyone hates masculinity" immediately made me think, "no, everyone hates that kind of masculinity, because its stupid and does nothing but create drama and misery".

Ahhh, ok! Thanks for clarifying the statement.

DisruptorX2

While Traditional hierarchy would certainly be relevant to a discussion about the cosmos, that is not what I had in mind, so I will refrain from discussing it.

I was merely speaking about the mindset that is prevalent today that strange men are all potential rapists and murderers. It is a hysteria out of line with reality, where strangers are rarely the cause of those crimes. And yes, this is exclusively a fear of strange men. No one is afraid of strange women.

CaptainNemo

I'll amend the title to better reflect the content of this thread.

Loklar

The Cat wrote: »

FroThulhu wrote: »

The Cat wrote: »

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

Uhhh... what the hell is this?

I don't think the 'traditional model' is that of a pedophile.

Well thank goodness I didn't say that!

The traditional model of masculinity that you see around the traps is based on a pyramid power structure, where you're defined by being better than other groups - those other jerks with their stupid hair, other races, women, children, whatever. It instills in some people, particularly those lower down the ladder, a creeping sense of inferiority that is usually just irritating but sometimes leads to violent or predatory acting out, control-seeking, etc. Sometimes it manifests as sexual abuse, domestic violence, and dudes snapping and shooting people they think have wronged them (ex boss, ex wife, the IRS...). In this case, paranoid dad's seeking control of his surroundings by aggressively going after the OP, who he sees as a threatening stranger, but he's also buying into that model by making assumptions about how the OP must be. Disruptor's comment about how "everyone hates masculinity" immediately made me think, "no, everyone hates that kind of masculinity, because its stupid and does nothing but create drama and misery".

This.


ooooorrrrrrrrr something else....

Kamar

The Cat wrote: »

FroThulhu wrote: »

The Cat wrote: »

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be more productive to question the modern Western mindset that is terrified of men and masculinity and promotes the notion that all men are potential rapists and pedophiles.

I'd question the hell out of this post, that's for sure. I think its more that people are growing increasingly sick of the particular model of masculinity that produces such violence and deviance, and are no longer willing to just accept that "that's just how men are". There are better ways to be a man than the traditional model. I think its also the case that overexposure to scaremongering mass media makes some people extremely paranoid and prone to do stupid things like frighten the bejeezus out of their kids with stories about how everyone outside their house is gunning for their underage asses.

I'm very sorry that that happened to you, OP, and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.

Uhhh... what the hell is this?

I don't think the 'traditional model' is that of a pedophile.

Well thank goodness I didn't say that!

The traditional model of masculinity that you see around the traps is based on a pyramid power structure, where you're defined by being better than other groups - those other jerks with their stupid hair, other races, women, children, whatever. It instills in some people, particularly those lower down the ladder, a creeping sense of inferiority that is usually just irritating but sometimes leads to violent or predatory acting out, control-seeking, etc. Sometimes it manifests as sexual abuse, domestic violence, and dudes snapping and shooting people they think have wronged them (ex boss, ex wife, the IRS...). In this case, paranoid dad's seeking control of his surroundings by aggressively going after the OP, who he sees as a threatening stranger, but he's also buying into that model by making assumptions about how the OP must be. Disruptor's comment about how "everyone hates masculinity" immediately made me think, "no, everyone hates that kind of masculinity, because its stupid and does nothing but create drama and misery".

I think the problem here is identifying that as the 'traditional model of masculinity' whereas it strikes me more as the 'traditional model of the ignorant' with little or nothing to do with gender. I mean, are you saying women don't create pyramid power structures to make themselves feel better?

(Yes, I realize that isn't what you meant, I was pointing out the potential interpretation of your wording and why it raised a few eyebrows).

CaptainNemo

There, that's better.

The Cat

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

While Traditional hierarchy would certainly be relevant to a discussion about the cosmos, that is not what I had in mind, so I will refrain from discussing it.

I was merely speaking about the mindset that is prevalent today that strange men are all potential rapists and murderers. It is a hysteria out of line with reality, where strangers are rarely the cause of those crimes. And yes, this is exclusively a fear of strange men. No one is afraid of strange women.

I fully agree that its unfair, but its not like it came out of nowhere, given crime stats. Like it or not, they are still very much male-dominated, and at my last reading, the gender gap was only closing among non-sexual violent crimes (street assaults and the like). The problem as I see it is taking those stats and going all gender-essentialist while ignoring socioeconomic and life-history factors.