To those who are considering not attending PAX because of this, all I can say is you'll be missing out. The people who are following this thread, or the noise on the web are probably 1% of the total attendance of PAX, maybe less. I have a feeling most people bought their shirts because they think the idea of a dickwolf is cool, and didn't read between the lines of the comic to connect dickwolf = rapist = possibly offending people who read these comics.
If you're choosing not to attend because you no longer support the event and the charities because of recent decisions, that's your prerogative. I'd be willing to bet money there will be some kind of announcement around this whole thing, and perhaps a formal apology made at the event, because that's the kind of place where you can air bad news and turn it around so everyone attending can hear about that awesome thing that happened, and the community is brought together.
Gonna be meta for a second and point out that this thread has the most infractions I have ever seen.
That said, I'm not particularly sure why there was Dickwolves T-Shirt in the first place outside of information gleaned from this thread, so the frame of context I have as a general forums user (who only rarely remembers to read the comic) is that the staff decided to own up to a potentially offensive idea of theirs. I feel like it was their own call to take it down based off of that prompt, which is well within their rights as a private organization. I'm surprised there is as much controversy as there evidently is.
I personally try to remain on the sensitive side as far as casual mention of rape goes. I can find a well-made rape joke to be humorous, but I would likely never say anything "oh dude the Jets just raped the Packers" or bring the general topic up in casual conversation. It's not my style.
So tl;dr, I'm not particularly missing this shirt because it was removed, but at the same time if I got one for free it wouldn't bother me.
(After all, as I said above, if the idea that the person who wears dickwolves shirt = think wolves raping people is great holds any water, then we must accept that the person who wears Pittsburgh Pirates shirt = thinks pirates killing, raping, and stealing from people is great as well - which is not a comfortable conclusion)
You know, the moment Johnny Depp or Kermit the Frog plays a dickwolf in a light-hearted comedy romp, I'll start to consider your point.
Irrelevant. Plus, if you reveal up front that you're not interesting in even considering a point unless some unlikely event happens (i.e. if pigs fly?) then that pretty much deflates anything you might say about it. I mean you just SAID that you have not started to even consider my idea - and that you wouldn't start considering it unless that ridiculous scenario unfolded. So what could you have of value to say about what I've said when you haven't even considered what I've said?
No, we don't know how dickwolves talk. All we know about them is that they:
a) Rape people to sleep; and
b) their every limb is an erect, rape-ready penis.
So we know that they are not in any way real things, and are deliberately exaggerated so as to not confuse anyone that they are wholly and completely not real? And that they do their unreal acts in an amoral world? Unlike things that we know have been real in our real world and are still real threats to people's life and limb in parts of the world - like pirates? So that makes the dickwolvds worse? Really?
There is no cultural context for them outside those two known facts. That's the point. That's why people got upset about a shirt supporting a team of them. I think your assertion that they should dig the humour in someone mocking their real-life trauma, and they're setting their cause back by not doing so, is beyond ignorant, solipsistic and selfish. It's skirting the boardlines sociopathy.
You have stopped thinking long before you got to the point. Look, the point is that when an icon or cultural construct has lots of other stuff built up around it, it's easy to loose sight of the fact that part of that icon or artifact is connected to violence, rape, war, et cetera. You accept it because the core of the icon has been diluted, and pirates are a perfect example. When we have a light-hearted movie about amoral pirates, and we come to accept those characters as culturally acceptable for emulation, we open the door to accepting the whole history of that icon. That's what rape culture is - the notion that acceptance of violence against women is subtly underlying many seemingly benign words, customs, and cultrual constructs of our world. Dickwolves are not the problem - they are not real and they are SO OBVIOUSLY meant to shock and unbalance people that they do not form part of this evil and insidious hidden cultural message. HOWEVER, having something like this may help to point out to you that - hey, wait a minute, IS there something wrong with the sports culture that I take for granted? IS there something wrong with the moral world of the games I invest myself in?
The idea that this shirt is in support of a team of dickwolves is utterly ridiculous - they are obviously not real, and are so obviously evil and wrong that you can't possibly be serious in thinking that the people who bought these shirts would be in support of "a team of them". I mean what do you even mean? A fake team of fake things doing fake rapes in their amoral fake world? A real team of fake things? Also, it is a mascot - are the Toronto Raptors a team of RAPTORS? No? Well why would you think that the Dickwolves team would be comprised of dickwolves? I don't think anyone thinking clearly about the anology could make that mistake. If you are looking to be offended, then sure - you can find away to get offended. Some people are, as I said, going to come by this as offensive honestly, because of psychological problems or unclear thinking. But you can't pass it off as intelligent and thoughtful commentary in either case.
I am only suggesting that sometimes humour helps to get you to the truth of things - no matter how painful or difficult that truth might be. And not every discussion is for everybody - victims of violence or rape maybe don't need to be brought to the realization that there is somethign wrong with their culture. But people who have not been victims (men and women) who are not reflective and don't think about the underlying messages present in their cultural icons SHOULD be shocked into thinking about it, if possible. And trying to effect this kind of thinking is, I would say, a GOOD THING for people who think that there is something wrong with our culture - even if they don't really need to be (or want to be) personally involved. And that is one of the things that is going on with the dickwolves shirt - it is ironic, it is somewhat uncomfortable, it is humorous and it is absurd AND THIS ABSURDITY starts wheels in your brain turning. Or maybe not. It certainly did for me. Just because the ideas won't get through to everybody doesn't mean that it's not making some people more aware, chaning some minds. And if it makes even some people more sensitive to the dark undertones of our cultre, isn't that a win for the discourse?
Now look, you said some mean things about me. I would like you to know that none of them are true. I am very close to a number of people who have been the victims of rape - and I am certain that you have no idea how horrific, brutal, and cruel men have been to people that I have cherished most dearly. If you don't want to consider what I have to say, that's fine. If you don't agree with me, that's fine too. But simply because I feel strongly enough about this issue that I think that we should use all vectors of discourse (including humour) as tools to reexamine ourselves and our culture does not make me a monster.
I'm stopping here. Please accept my apologies, Tube - I went against your request to stop before. I understand that I may deserve and infraction, but I was upset, and wanted to say my peice.
Tangental to the issue, I wonder how this will affect the strip?
As has been demonstrated, rape has been used several times over the years. Now it's receiving such attention that I can't imagine there won't be at least some pondering (if not hesitation) to use it again.
In the sense of censoring ones work pre-emptively, some might see this as problematic (the artistic 'chilling effect' has been referenced already).
On the other hand, there are those who feel strongly enough about the issue that I'm sure they wouldn't mind it never coming up again, whatever the reason.
I sincerely hope that all the good work done by PA (PAX Prime & East, Child's Play, etc) isn't set back over a line in the sand between often reasonable people.
Probably why the matter is so divisive; logically and emotionally there are a lot of grey areas of nuance to get lost in.
As a business endeavor, a manner of supporting several families and directly or indirectly creating a number of communities (from WoW guilds to the various splinter groups found on the forums for just about every multiplayer game out there (... or at least, on Steam)), there's an awful lot of weight and attention put on two guys who make a webcomic.
Obviously this situation is different than the norm, which to bring me back to my original point, I wonder how the strip will or won't change in the face of the controversy. Or how it would be had the issue never arisen, though that is of course purely speculative.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Once more, it still isn't about the initial strip.
Some people don't like rape jokes. It's a p. messy topic and it's very difficult to blow it so out of proportion that it's less "real." It was a joke about rape, even if it wasn't the punchline, and some rape survivors didn't like it.
There was a blog vs blog blow by blow, but hey, that's how things happen naturally. Thing is, Mike and Jerry didn't have to "admit to being an asshole." They didn't have to respond at all! This is hardly the first controversial strip they've made, and it's hardly the first time people have gotten mad at them.
What they chose to do mock rape survivors on the most popular webcomic in the world.
But know what? Even that was just a normal argument that got out of hand. People were heated, it was a messy scene. It's a bit crass, but well, PA is crass sometimes.
No, the problem is the merchandise. The problem is that their reaction to being told the comic made people uncomfortable was "You don't like dickwolves because it reminds you of the time you got raped? Get ready to see people wearing team rapist t-shirts and waving dickwolf banners high and proud." It felt like they were proclaiming "Take that, rape victim!"
It's cruel, it's uneccesary, it's p. terrible.
The tragic thing is, Mike and Jerry was so close to having a real good point. A not that greatly worded one, albeit, and a rather aggressive one, but a good point. Any type of violence - or almost anything period - can be a trigger, but sometimes that feels like the only thing anyone cares about. Rape survivors certainly deserve to have their feelings taken into account, but consideration for other people should, too, and at the end of the day, it's all but impossible to not hit on a bad topic for some people.
But, instead of keeping to that point, they chose to sell the merchandise. When they announced they'd be taking if off the merch list, Mike was quick to point out he'd still be wearing his. So much for a comfortable atmosphere.
The problem isn't the initial strip. The problem is the response.
I hope this doesn't overstep the bounds of no debate, but I doubt the strip will really be affected too much, and I doubt that Mike and Jerry will allow their creativity or artistic freedom to be stifled too greatly, if at all, from what happened here.
PA does engage in controversy now and then, but in the broad view of the entire history of the comic, it isn't that often. Probably less than 1% of their strips could reasonably be said to contain any triggers, unless excessive gore/violence itself is a trigger for you in which case the percentage is admittedly higher.
Of that less than 1%, barely any of them have used rape as a setting or a punchline. The Dickwolf comic, therefore, is an extremely rare case when you look at it this way. Even if you include the Fruitfucker comics, and the Pac-Man sketchbook comic, that's...what...ten or twenty comics with rape or implied rape out of twelve-plus years of history?
Undoubtedly, all of this will stick in the minds of Mike and Jerry so that if and when a situation ever presents itself where they might be inclined to reference rape or sexual assault, they might give pause and ponder it. That will be the effect this has. Maybe they will choose not to do the strip. Maybe they will choose to do it anyway, either in the name of freedom or defiance. Who can predict? But as it stands, the amount of times they have referenced rape is negligible, and it stands to reason that given another 12, 24, 36, or however many years, the amount of times they would have referenced it in the future would also have been negligible. So even the memory of this won't have much of a chance to pop up very often.
Okaythen - a couple concerns about the article abstracts you posted:
1. Neither journal is particularly "high power." Journals with high power ranking carry more weight since their writers are often the best of the field, and the critique process may be more rigorous. These journals are fairly low-level, and as such two things are evident - higher ranking journals won't touch this stuff and for good reason (I know, because I looked), and the content of the articles you posted therefore deserves a higher level of skepticism.
2. At least one of the articles references Freudian theory. No one in professional psychiatry or psychology takes Freud's theory seriously, and in fact most consider it garbage (specifically, it is unscientific, and it cannot be tested or falsified like other theories). Freud's observations (esp. on things like defense mechanisms) are still spot-on, it's just that his explanations (for why those things happen) are worthless.
3. You make perhaps the most common mistake all undergrad freshmen in psychology make - you equate correlation with causation. This is flat-out wrong. One can never say "A is strongly associated with B, so surely A causes B, or maybe B causes A." No. In this case, there may be a correlation between enjoyment of sexist humor and actual sexist attitudes, but there is no proof whatsoever that one causes the other. And it is a huge jump to suggest that either such humor or attitudes would lead to actual harmful behavior. In fact, looking at the actual articles (which one can do on Medline), you'll see that the correlations are actually quite small. They are "statistically significant," but in terms of how big and important those differences are (e.g., effect size, usually measured in s/t like Cohen's D or eta squared, et al.), the effects are bordering on trivial.
Just posting articles does not help your argument - they should be *good* articles. And these are not.
FWIW, I am a psychologist and a professor of psychiatry at a medical school, and I'm not touching most of the stuff on this topic other than to say I hope it blows over quickly and without too much in the way of hurt feelings on *all* sides. I do find it sad that so many people on either side of the discussion are implying malice on the other side, when it doesn't appear that way to me at all...
As I have said several times now this is not a debate forum. You are welcome to leave your opinion but please leave your argumentative bullshit at home.
Tube on
0
HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I just don't get why people decided to magically get offended by rape this time.
A brief PA history of rape:
2003
2004
2007
2008
2010
And I'm sure there are more than I'm missing. Why is it just all of a sudden time to block PA and rant against it since they use rape jokes!!!
Which leads me to believe that the vocal minority that complained about the strip and the shirt are also completely uninformed about PA, which in turn makes it really really silly Gabe decided to take down the shirt.
Ok well I guess I might as well chime in with my 2 cents.
The original comic: funny, in a way not related to rape. uses rape in a very exagerrated unrealistic sense. not super offensive, but a little bit, no more than most of their other comics.
The apology comic: shows that G&T really didn't get why people complained about the original comic. Rape culture isn't about condoning rape, but about trivializing it. Maybe the compliants people sent them were more retarded than this, I don't know. Again, only slightly offensive.
The dickwolves t-shirt: Honestly, kinda offensive. If you wear it or recognize it, you know what it's about. It's about rape. It's saying that you're a member of a group of rapists. Yeah, it's exaggerated rape for comedic effect, but you're still saying that exaggerated rape is funny, and that you identify with it. There's no other joke here that the rape is here to support; rape is the joke. Ok ok, a creature designed exclusively for rape, because that's such a big difference.
The neckbeard backlash: just stupid. It looks like it's orchestrated by shakesville, and there's nothing that can turn men against feminists quite like shakesville.
edit::
Here's a good way to sum it up, I think. The difference between the strip and the shirt is like the difference between playing Wolfenstein and wearing a swastika. They're related, but they're noooot quiiite the same.
The argument about the comics excluded, I don't really care that they will no longer be selling the shirt.
Quite frankly, I just thought it was kind of a stupid looking shirt - one that most people would have only bought at this point to be edgy or confrontational (and don't come at me with "I'm wearing it to support Penny-Arcade!", to the people that object to it that is confrontational).
Nobody wants to see what they perceive as censorship or some sort of injustice done on PA, and while I personally have no issues with the original comic/response or the shirt even, I think that it was probably for the best that they take a step back and try to squash this thing before it gets even uglier.
That being said, I don't appreciate having mike/jerry accused of being "rape-apologists", as it makes me look like one too. It certainly does not help that some juvenile individual started a "team rape" twitter. The "fucknopennyarcade" tumblr is even worse - beyond missing the point of the original discourse they seem to be spewing some pretty intense vitriol over some shit that happened more than six months ago. I would say it has turned into some sort of dick-measuring contest but that might make me look misogynistic.
Lint on
Kumite all the way!
0
HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
Here's a good way to sum it up, I think. The difference between the strip and the shirt is like the difference between playing Wolfenstein and wearing a swastika. They're related, but they're noooot quiiite the same.
except that's not true at all. the swastika represents a real entity that did horrible horrible things
the dickwolves emblem represents a fake entity that fake did something bad that really represents nothing of substance since it's all imaginary. plus it's from a humour context as opposed to some sort of serious fictional account
Here's a good way to sum it up, I think. The difference between the strip and the shirt is like the difference between playing Wolfenstein and wearing a swastika. They're related, but they're noooot quiiite the same.
except that's not true at all. the swastika represents a real entity that did horrible horrible things
the dickwolves emblem represents a fake entity that fake did something bad that really represents nothing of substance since it's all imaginary. plus it's from a humour context as opposed to some sort of serious fictional account
You couldn't make a worse analogy
I used a real world symbol so as to pick one people would actually recognize. Whether it represents real life actions or imaginary ones doesn't matter, because the point is the person wearing it, and how much they identify with the action implied. People wearing dickwolf shirts probably haven't raped anyone, and people wearing swastikas nowadays probably haven't committed genocide, but they both have an implicit support of them, however ironic.
And the fact that it's a humor context for dickwolves is actually part of the whole 'rape culture' issue. It doesn't really make it better, as the whole reason people get up in arms about it is that rape is considered a joke.
If you can think of a good fictional group which supports large scale rape or murder to use instead of the nazi party, feel free to use it.
Anyway, tube has said no debating in this thread, so I'll try to make this my last post here.
3. You make perhaps the most common mistake all undergrad freshmen in psychology make - you equate correlation with causation. This is flat-out wrong. One can never say "A is strongly associated with B, so surely A causes B, or maybe B causes A." No. In this case, there may be a correlation between enjoyment of sexist humor and actual sexist attitudes, but there is no proof whatsoever that one causes the other. And it is a huge jump to suggest that either such humor or attitudes would lead to actual harmful behavior. In fact, looking at the actual articles (which one can do on Medline), you'll see that the correlations are actually quite small. They are "statistically significant," but in terms of how big and important those differences are (e.g., effect size, usually measured in s/t like Cohen's D or eta squared, et al.), the effects are bordering on trivial.
It's good to see someone point this out, as it's a critical part of scientific reasoning in general, not just psychology.
I'm also disappointed to see the shirt go (though I never intended to buy one). Here's to it being an isolated incident, and PA regaining their throne of non-PC content.
If "Dickwolves" was the name of an actual, all american team of professional rapists, nobody would wear the damn shirt. However, Dickwolves are a fictional species that fictionally rapes fictional people to fictional sleep (fictionally.) Finding this funny does not desensitise anybody towards actual rape, or turn you into a champion of "rape culture."
The comic is funny, and the shirt is funny. I own one, and I feel sorry for those that are now missing out on an awesome piece of Penny Arcade merch.
They should hire me for PR. I thought of that the day I read the rebuttal comic. The last thing they should ever do beyond that point is back out on the shirt - people bought the shirt to defend them. Backpedaling from the shirt is backpedaling away from people who stuck up for them.
Personally, I thought (and suggested in e-mail) that they should have done Don't Be A Dickwolf shirts with the same kind of deal: they find a fully inclusive rape crisis organization and donate some or all of the profits. There still would have been some people upset, but I think it would have been a smaller crowd.
And preferably Werewolf Wil Wheaton would be the one saying it.
Two days after the dickwolves comic, they made a joke about killing people in a game.
Clearly Mike & Jerry support rampant murdering of innocent civilians.
No? They also don't support rape. And are they diminishing my ability to restrain myself and not rape people through "Rape Culture". Let me check. No, I'm still as anti-raping as I was before I read the comic or saw the shirt.
See, I have a brain in my head. I use it to make my own decisions. I was helped growing up by having parents, who taught me right from wrong. And I'm not crazy.
All of those factors above will consistently over-ride anything TV, the internets, or T-Shirts tell me to do. People are so quick to blame society for everything there is no personal responsibility anymore. We have to censor our lives because we have to treat everyone like they're mentally invalid. Everything must be played down to the lowest common denominator because of the people who protest stuff like this.
People don't rape because they saw it on TV one too many times and figured "Hey, it's no big deal." They do it because they're worthless pieces of shit with no common decency for their fellow human beings (or they are mentally ill, due to any multitude of factors including abuse). Not because they saw a Dickwolves T-Shirt.
Tackle the issue at its source... educate people at a young age for those parents incapable of doing it themselves. Have better protection to get kids out of dangerous homes where they are mentally & sexually abused to the point where they break and become offenders themselves. Don't think that complaining on the internet & censoring free speech is going to solve this problem. I'm pretty sure people raped before the internet and off-color T-shirts existed.
Man, honestly? I just was going to get a shirt or pennant because the idea of a professional sports team being named The Dickwolves is something that amuses me.
I imagine this is why a lot of people have their shirts/pennants already. They're innocently buying things because the name alone is an attention-getter, comic be damned.
It'd be the same thing if they began selling merch from the Draw a Horse thing that went around last year. My google-fu is weak and I can't find any examples right now. But if you saw one, you'd probably think "I'd want that on a shirt, even though I can't possibly think of where I'd be comfortable wearing it!"
The actions of the greater internet at large are not Penny Arcade's responsibility.
No, but posting a blog that basically says "Fuck you" certainly doesn't help. It wouldn't hurt them to write something up that basically says, "We don't want any of our fans to be assholes about this."
The actions of the greater internet at large are not Penny Arcade's responsibility.
No, but posting a blog that basically says "Fuck you" certainly doesn't help. It wouldn't hurt them to write something up that basically says, "We don't want any of our fans to be assholes about this."
I'd also appreciate this. It's at the point where I'm uncomfortable to call myself a Penny Arcade fan, simply because of guilt by association with slew of people who are being utter jerks about the entire thing. A reminder of Wheaton's Law would serve these guys well.
Willeth on
@vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming! @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
All I'm going to say on the matter is that this whole debacle is an excellent example of why a rule that so many of you have taken to heart, "don't be a dick", is not really sufficient in and of itself to prevent or resolve situations like this, nor could it ever be. The community likes to pretend that it's a simple, clear, and straightforward rule but the current situation illustrates how false this is. Whatever your position in this mess, you're convinced it's the other side that's being the dick. So everyone feels they're obeying Wheaton's Law and that the other guys are breaking it, so they're totally in the clear.
I'm not ashamed to be part of the PA community at all as a result of this, because there are still the same great people here that I've grown to know and respect as well as the same masses of people that seem just ok to me and I'm pretty ok with, and the same occasional people that I have little to no respect for. Pretty much like any other gathering of people. The community doesn't define me.
My first thoughts were that a bunch of extremly thin skinned people over reacted, and that the PA staff chose the path of least resitence for reasons Mike outlined in his news post. And fair enough too, it's their business, they call the shots for what ever reasons seem appropriate to them.
But Randehs post made a lot of sense. In hindsight the ideal solution would have been to completly ignore the people complaining and at some point down the line, when no one cares anymore, to pull the shirt out of the PA store. I mean PA must have some process for cycling old products out their stock line right?
In what way is that an ideal solution? Usually in such a situation an "ideal" would satisfy (or come as close as possible to satisfying) both of those who disagree. I fail to see how the above course of action constitutes an ideal for anyone but those who want to buy Dickwolves shirts.
Really people who are this thin skinned cannot be satisfied, it's pointless to try and will only make them ask for more in the future. It's people like kirbybits that make feminism seem stupid, and thats a real shame.
I mean I think it's terrible kirbybits was raped but this doesn't give her the right to try and sanitise the world of things she finds offensive. Nor does it give her the right to speak on behalf of all sexual assault victims. Also call me crazy but isn't putting warnings for rape flashback triggers in everything containing references to rape in itself a rape flashback trigger by her own definition of a rape flashback trigger? She lost what little credibility she had in her moronic diatribe about Mikes news post.
Some people need to accept that they are a minority, the world will not change to suit them, they need change to adapt to the world. Pandering to their asinine demands won't accomplish that.
As a speaker at PAX I think she is about as supremely qualified to discuss her feelings on this situation as anyone could possibly be. Nobody can claim to speak for an entire group, obviously, but I've not seen anything that indicates kirbybits said that.
At no point did this kirbybits person attempt to "sanitize the world" of something they disliked, they voiced a real concern to a company who organizes an event at which they were scheduled to publicly appear. If I had a serious disagreement with any organization I probably would voice those concerns before issuing tacit approval by participating.
I do not want to be the guy banging the drum for this person, I think the notion of "rape culture" is ridiculously overblown, but this post just smells wrong to me. I'm sure that you are not, in any way, trying to say "rape victims should just stop complaining", but I see shades of it, and it's depressing.
If I owned this shirt, I would not wear it to PAX. My desire to express either my fondness for the joke (which is, as I've reiterated, a funny joke) or some vague statement about free speech is profoundly irrelevant when I consider that there's even a chance it could hurt someone's feelings, especially someone who was victimized in that way.
It would have been ideal in the sense that this shitstorm would have been entirely avoided. The bloggers would have moaned on their blogs and their readers would have continued to agree with them. Meanwhile no one else would have known or cared. Eventually they would have got bored or found a real problem to focus on. Meanwhile the shirt has been removed and everyone is now happy. And no one has got the impression that self-righteous e-mails can shape PA's business decisions. Believe me this is not the last time something somewhere is going to offend these people, you said it yourself "rape culture" is ridiculously overblown. PA is going to have to draw a line in the sand somewhere and when they do, people are going to complain their "demands" are no longer being met.
Also don't for a second lump me in with the "rape victims should stop whining" people. Thinking she kirbybits is unrealistic in her methods does not make me a supporter of rape no matter how easy it is to strawman her detractors in that way. Of course they have a right to complain or talk about their experiences. But they should be speaking to therapists, or their friends or family. Going on the internet and starting crusades to try and change everyone else’s behaviour because it upsets them is neither a practical or realistic way of dealing with their experiences.
As for her not speaking on behalf of all sexual assault victims or trying to sanitise the world, go read her blog. That is completely what she is doing. She doesn't even acknowledge the possibility that there are sexual assault victims who react to their experience differently from her.
Whatever your position in this mess, you're convinced it's the other side that's being the dick.
No. This is not the case.
I don't even think I've taken a side. I think that both parties have reacted very strongly, and I think the only people who have really been 'dicks' are Mike, with his ridiculous joking dismissal of people, and a select portion of the community who are pulling a /b/ whenever possible.
I think the strip, while perhaps inflammatory, is fine. Any topic should and can be the subject of humour. And hell, in this strip, rape wasn't even the subject. I think Stanton et al are perfectly justified in their outrage, irritation, or however it should best be described, especially at the shirt itself, and I think it's fair to call it a 'support Team Rape' shirt. I am certain that trigger words and events exist - at PAX 09, an acquaintance had to leave the event entirely because the crush outside the Main Theatre between was causing post-traumatic stress from his time in the military. I'm certain that the strip could have been a trigger for some people. However, I'm equally certain that the indication that Mike and Jerry should consider this when making any strip is laughable.
I'm annoyed at Penny Arcade for dealing with the situation incredibly badly. They didn't reject the premise of the detractors' arguments, and instead focused directly on the dickwolves themselves, a throwaway joke to reinforce the main one - thus making it the subject in a way it didn't need to be. I'm irritated with Stanton et al for assuming that the audience of Penny Arcade is not able to distinguish that the point of the comic isn't 'ha ha, rape'. I'm disappointed in the section of the community that decided they wanted to prove her right.
Does that count as a 'side'? If so, can we get more people on it?
Willeth on
@vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming! @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
I'm not sure how that's much different than asking them to take responsibility for their fans.
I don't think Mike is at all unaware of the influence he can wield with a few carefully placed passive aggressive dog-whistles (like "vocal minority"). It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to hold him somewhat accountable for that.
Penny Arcade regularly celebrates its influence; in charity, in community, and in the industry. It's entirely disingenuous to discount that influence when its effects are less glamorous, or even downright ugly. If, as they so often say, they want to be a positive force within the gaming community, then they ought to avoid doing things that harm our community just as much as they act to promote it. The gaming community is not strengthened by ostracizing or marginalizing its vulnerable members when they speak up for themselves. Just a few weeks ago the strip lampooned the bullying geeks sometimes endure. Is it better in some way when we do it to each other?
Do I think the original strip was harmful to our community? Not in itself, no. A bit insensitive? Surely, but almost as surely not intentionally. Their response to the criticism the strip received however, was graceless and plainly toxic to the ideal of an inclusive community of gamers. We can do better; Mike and Jerry can do better; and we should.
Whatever your position in this mess, you're convinced it's the other side that's being the dick.
No. This is not the case.
I don't even think I've taken a side. I think that both parties have reacted very strongly, and I think the only people who have really been 'dicks' are Mike, with his ridiculous joking dismissal of people, and a select portion of the community who are pulling a /b/ whenever possible.
I think the strip, while perhaps inflammatory, is fine. Any topic should and can be the subject of humour. And hell, in this strip, rape wasn't even the subject. I think Stanton et al are perfectly justified in their outrage, irritation, or however it should best be described, especially at the shirt itself, and I think it's fair to call it a 'support Team Rape' shirt. I am certain that trigger words and events exist - at PAX 09, an acquaintance had to leave the event entirely because the crush outside the Main Theatre between was causing post-traumatic stress from his time in the military. I'm certain that the strip could have been a trigger for some people. However, I'm equally certain that the indication that Mike and Jerry should consider this when making any strip is laughable.
I'm annoyed at Penny Arcade for dealing with the situation incredibly badly. They didn't reject the premise of the detractors' arguments, and instead focused directly on the dickwolves themselves, a throwaway joke to reinforce the main one - thus making it the subject in a way it didn't need to be. I'm irritated with Stanton et al for assuming that the audience of Penny Arcade is not able to distinguish that the point of the comic isn't 'ha ha, rape'. I'm disappointed in the section of the community that decided they wanted to prove her right.
Does that count as a 'side'? If so, can we get more people on it?
I'm almost with you, but Stanton et al have stated 1,000 times that they know the point of the comic. It's a subtle thing that's very hard to describe, but it's basically an associative effect that desensitizes people. I'm not entirely sold on the trigger issue, as there's likely tons of things that cause PTSD and nobody is going to be able to consider all the possibilities. I do think it's good for people to speak up and allow the creators to consider something they might hadn't before. In fact, few are calling for the comic to come down but rather just acknowledge that they weren't aware of the ramifications of what they did and how diverse the audience has grown in the past decade or so.
It's really the response that's pissed people off: the response comic just erected a strawman and the merch just pours salt on the wound. Mike's tweets are doing nothing to help the situation.
This isn't Jack Thompson, American Greetings, EA or some such. They're rape survivors, and I cannot say how terrible it is to wear a Dickwolf shirt at PAX just to spite these people.
So basically, I agree with you with a minor exception.
Seriously guys. Week sixteen NFL rivalry game, the Panthers vs. Dickwolves.
This is the bright future that idiocy has robbed us of.
If you have to be angry at something, be angry that no promising young man will grow up to be the Dickwolves Tight-End.
If you must be outraged, be outraged at the loss of a Dickwolves Super Bowl.
If you must weep, please I beg of you, weep for the fact that we will never see the Dickwolves in their true habitat. Running, majestic as the long extinct Genocidebadger, down the turf of Dick Wolf stadium.
Whatever your position in this mess, you're convinced it's the other side that's being the dick.
No. This is not the case.
I don't even think I've taken a side. I think that both parties have reacted very strongly, and I think the only people who have really been 'dicks' are Mike, with his ridiculous joking dismissal of people, and a select portion of the community who are pulling a /b/ whenever possible.
I think the strip, while perhaps inflammatory, is fine. Any topic should and can be the subject of humour. And hell, in this strip, rape wasn't even the subject. I think Stanton et al are perfectly justified in their outrage, irritation, or however it should best be described, especially at the shirt itself, and I think it's fair to call it a 'support Team Rape' shirt. I am certain that trigger words and events exist - at PAX 09, an acquaintance had to leave the event entirely because the crush outside the Main Theatre between was causing post-traumatic stress from his time in the military. I'm certain that the strip could have been a trigger for some people. However, I'm equally certain that the indication that Mike and Jerry should consider this when making any strip is laughable.
I'm annoyed at Penny Arcade for dealing with the situation incredibly badly. They didn't reject the premise of the detractors' arguments, and instead focused directly on the dickwolves themselves, a throwaway joke to reinforce the main one - thus making it the subject in a way it didn't need to be. I'm irritated with Stanton et al for assuming that the audience of Penny Arcade is not able to distinguish that the point of the comic isn't 'ha ha, rape'. I'm disappointed in the section of the community that decided they wanted to prove her right.
Does that count as a 'side'? If so, can we get more people on it?
I'm almost with you, but Stanton et al have stated 1,000 times that they know the point of the comic. It's a subtle thing that's very hard to describe, but it's basically an associative effect that desensitizes people. I'm not entirely sold on the trigger issue, as there's likely tons of things that cause PTSD and nobody is going to be able to consider all the possibilities. I do think it's good for people to speak up and allow the creators to consider something they might hadn't before. In fact, few are calling for the comic to come down but rather just acknowledge that they weren't aware of the ramifications of what they did and how diverse the audience has grown in the past decade or so.
It's really the response that's pissed people off: the response comic just erected a strawman and the merch just pours salt on the wound. Mike's tweets are doing nothing to help the situation.
This isn't Jack Thompson, American Greetings, EA or some such. They're rape survivors, and I cannot say how terrible it is to wear a Dickwolf shirt at PAX just to spite these people.
So basically, I agree with you with a minor exception.
Oh, I don't think the people complaining about the comic don't understand it. But on my first impression of the idea of rape culture, a key part of it is the implication that discussing or mentioning something desensitizes people to it by default, which I immediately disagree with. When applied specifically to this strip, that implication applies to the PA audience, and as part of that audience I resent the supposition that I'm unable to differentiate between commentary, mention, and support.
What I know of rape culture, though, comes entirely from the mention of it over the last few days, and I've not read too much background or academic info that talks about this kind of psychology - so this might be a misinformed viewpoint.
Willeth on
@vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming! @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
I'm not professing to have much more a handle on the subject, but it's not saying you are too stupid or ignorant to understand the differences. It's more a subconscious thing that works like a slow erosion. It doesn't mean you'll one day be some terrible rapist, but you see a lot of examples in this very thread. Accusations of being weak or speaking negatively of someone because of rape PTSD. Few would dare say such things to a soldier experiencing a combat-related PTSD, but the former group seems far game for criticism because they "can't move on."
We had a fantastic thread on media in D&D at one point that shows how psychology in the past century has been used to subconsciously direct our thoughts. The "rape culture" concept is really not all that far off.
A lot of these blogs are quite interesting to read, if a bit difficult to initially wrap your head around.
I'm not professing to have much more a handle on the subject, but it's not saying you are too stupid or ignorant to understand the differences. It's more a subconscious thing that works like a slow erosion. It doesn't mean you'll one day be some terrible rapist, but you see a lot of examples in this very thread. Accusations of being weak or speaking negatively of someone because of rape PTSD. Few would dare say such things to a soldier experiencing a combat-related PTSD, but the former group seems far game for criticism because they "can't move on."
We had a fantastic thread on media in D&D at one point that shows how psychology in the past century has been used to subconsciously direct our thoughts. The "rape culture" concept is really not all that far off.
A lot of these blogs are quite interesting to read, if a bit difficult to initially wrap your head around.
After doing some brief reading, I think my stance is that I'm pretty sure that rape culture does exist, in the sphere of 'Roman Polanski should not be tried because he made some good films' and 'I don't care that this sportsman is a rapist, he's good at playing his sport' and 'she hung around with rapists, what did she expect'. Fortunately whenever I have heard these arguments before I've naturally rejected them, and while I'd hope that most people would I've experienced arguments before where people have expressed those exact opinions.
But hey, the D&D thread is moving pretty quickly now, so I'm moving this over there.
Willeth on
@vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming! @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
Obviously you can't argue the fact that the owner of the shirt and the website that sells it has every right to decide what to do.
However I will say this: Once you can't make fun of something, nothing is allowed.
You can discuss the validity in jokes about rape, race, murder, etc.. all day long, but at the end of the day you're simply saying it is ok to make fun of one thing an not another. That might not be the message you're trying to display, but if you don't fight for your artistic freedom then what is the point of speaking out in the first place?
Whatever your position in this mess, you're convinced it's the other side that's being the dick.
No. This is not the case.
I don't even think I've taken a side. I think that both parties have reacted very strongly, and I think the only people who have really been 'dicks' are Mike, with his ridiculous joking dismissal of people, and a select portion of the community who are pulling a /b/ whenever possible.
I think the strip, while perhaps inflammatory, is fine. Any topic should and can be the subject of humour. And hell, in this strip, rape wasn't even the subject. I think Stanton et al are perfectly justified in their outrage, irritation, or however it should best be described, especially at the shirt itself, and I think it's fair to call it a 'support Team Rape' shirt. I am certain that trigger words and events exist - at PAX 09, an acquaintance had to leave the event entirely because the crush outside the Main Theatre between was causing post-traumatic stress from his time in the military. I'm certain that the strip could have been a trigger for some people. However, I'm equally certain that the indication that Mike and Jerry should consider this when making any strip is laughable.
I'm annoyed at Penny Arcade for dealing with the situation incredibly badly. They didn't reject the premise of the detractors' arguments, and instead focused directly on the dickwolves themselves, a throwaway joke to reinforce the main one - thus making it the subject in a way it didn't need to be. I'm irritated with Stanton et al for assuming that the audience of Penny Arcade is not able to distinguish that the point of the comic isn't 'ha ha, rape'. I'm disappointed in the section of the community that decided they wanted to prove her right.
Does that count as a 'side'? If so, can we get more people on it?
I will team with you, sir, and I will also add that I am most annoyed at the people stalking and dissecting Mike's every word and action (like his iTunes playlist) and the people typing poorly spelled death threats at kirbybits et al.
I’ve been thinking about this whole thing for a while. The fact that PA make rape jokes, or jokes with rape in them, makes me uncomfortable but hey, they cross that line sometimes. I’ve known that for the many years I’ve been reading the strip and blog.
What’s kept me going, what’s really inspired me over all those years is Mike and Jerry. I mean, Mike showed me that, ‘comic’ drawing can be an art form. Jerry that writing news posts can mean something, that they can be an art form too. And it’s been a privilege to watch the two of them grow as artists.
What’s inspired me more is probably what they’ve done with their talents. They’ve gone from two geeks working horrible day jobs to the most influential people in the video games industry. Child’s Play and PAX are beautiful, beautiful things and proof that, occasionally, the good guys win in real life, too.
But they’re reaction--Mike’s especially--to this whole thing has left me feeling really let down (which has been handily collected here). They’ve made themselves ambassadors for gaming culture, and this is how they react? This is how they represent us? They’re not the people I thought they were. Turns out they’re not the good guys after all.
So maybe I’m taking this personally but, well, can’t help the way we feel, can we? I feel let down and disappointed and like people I thought were friends are ass-hats just like everyone else. So, this is me saying goodbye to Penny Arcade. At least until I can think of them as friends again.
I don't care about the stupid shirt. I wasn't going to buy a shirt with the word dick on it. I can't wear it to work, or around a lot of my friends.
You can argue for or against triggers or rape culture.
What bothers me is that it's caused division in the ranks, and made the PA community feel less inclusive. (Probably because a lot of the trolls are claiming to be PA fans, even if they're not really part of the family).
I wish Mike would stop antagonizing folks on twitter and just lay low instead of giving them more ammo.
I think it's an opportunity for the good PA fans to embrace Wheaton's law and try to undo some of the collateral damage. I've tried to talk to some folks who were thinking of canceling their PAX trip and make them feel welcome, assure them it's still going to be a good time. So...good time to not be a troll, not write the smartass response, good time to remember it's about games, comics, and fun, not psychology and politics and winning a forum argument.
Posts
If you're choosing not to attend because you no longer support the event and the charities because of recent decisions, that's your prerogative. I'd be willing to bet money there will be some kind of announcement around this whole thing, and perhaps a formal apology made at the event, because that's the kind of place where you can air bad news and turn it around so everyone attending can hear about that awesome thing that happened, and the community is brought together.
Or maybe I'm an eternal optimist...
Steam: TheArcadeBear
That said, I'm not particularly sure why there was Dickwolves T-Shirt in the first place outside of information gleaned from this thread, so the frame of context I have as a general forums user (who only rarely remembers to read the comic) is that the staff decided to own up to a potentially offensive idea of theirs. I feel like it was their own call to take it down based off of that prompt, which is well within their rights as a private organization. I'm surprised there is as much controversy as there evidently is.
I personally try to remain on the sensitive side as far as casual mention of rape goes. I can find a well-made rape joke to be humorous, but I would likely never say anything "oh dude the Jets just raped the Packers" or bring the general topic up in casual conversation. It's not my style.
So tl;dr, I'm not particularly missing this shirt because it was removed, but at the same time if I got one for free it wouldn't bother me.
Irrelevant. Plus, if you reveal up front that you're not interesting in even considering a point unless some unlikely event happens (i.e. if pigs fly?) then that pretty much deflates anything you might say about it. I mean you just SAID that you have not started to even consider my idea - and that you wouldn't start considering it unless that ridiculous scenario unfolded. So what could you have of value to say about what I've said when you haven't even considered what I've said?
As has been demonstrated, rape has been used several times over the years. Now it's receiving such attention that I can't imagine there won't be at least some pondering (if not hesitation) to use it again.
In the sense of censoring ones work pre-emptively, some might see this as problematic (the artistic 'chilling effect' has been referenced already).
On the other hand, there are those who feel strongly enough about the issue that I'm sure they wouldn't mind it never coming up again, whatever the reason.
I sincerely hope that all the good work done by PA (PAX Prime & East, Child's Play, etc) isn't set back over a line in the sand between often reasonable people.
Probably why the matter is so divisive; logically and emotionally there are a lot of grey areas of nuance to get lost in.
As a business endeavor, a manner of supporting several families and directly or indirectly creating a number of communities (from WoW guilds to the various splinter groups found on the forums for just about every multiplayer game out there (... or at least, on Steam)), there's an awful lot of weight and attention put on two guys who make a webcomic.
Obviously this situation is different than the norm, which to bring me back to my original point, I wonder how the strip will or won't change in the face of the controversy. Or how it would be had the issue never arisen, though that is of course purely speculative.
Some people don't like rape jokes. It's a p. messy topic and it's very difficult to blow it so out of proportion that it's less "real." It was a joke about rape, even if it wasn't the punchline, and some rape survivors didn't like it.
There was a blog vs blog blow by blow, but hey, that's how things happen naturally. Thing is, Mike and Jerry didn't have to "admit to being an asshole." They didn't have to respond at all! This is hardly the first controversial strip they've made, and it's hardly the first time people have gotten mad at them.
What they chose to do mock rape survivors on the most popular webcomic in the world.
But know what? Even that was just a normal argument that got out of hand. People were heated, it was a messy scene. It's a bit crass, but well, PA is crass sometimes.
No, the problem is the merchandise. The problem is that their reaction to being told the comic made people uncomfortable was "You don't like dickwolves because it reminds you of the time you got raped? Get ready to see people wearing team rapist t-shirts and waving dickwolf banners high and proud." It felt like they were proclaiming "Take that, rape victim!"
It's cruel, it's uneccesary, it's p. terrible.
The tragic thing is, Mike and Jerry was so close to having a real good point. A not that greatly worded one, albeit, and a rather aggressive one, but a good point. Any type of violence - or almost anything period - can be a trigger, but sometimes that feels like the only thing anyone cares about. Rape survivors certainly deserve to have their feelings taken into account, but consideration for other people should, too, and at the end of the day, it's all but impossible to not hit on a bad topic for some people.
But, instead of keeping to that point, they chose to sell the merchandise. When they announced they'd be taking if off the merch list, Mike was quick to point out he'd still be wearing his. So much for a comfortable atmosphere.
The problem isn't the initial strip. The problem is the response.
PA does engage in controversy now and then, but in the broad view of the entire history of the comic, it isn't that often. Probably less than 1% of their strips could reasonably be said to contain any triggers, unless excessive gore/violence itself is a trigger for you in which case the percentage is admittedly higher.
Of that less than 1%, barely any of them have used rape as a setting or a punchline. The Dickwolf comic, therefore, is an extremely rare case when you look at it this way. Even if you include the Fruitfucker comics, and the Pac-Man sketchbook comic, that's...what...ten or twenty comics with rape or implied rape out of twelve-plus years of history?
Undoubtedly, all of this will stick in the minds of Mike and Jerry so that if and when a situation ever presents itself where they might be inclined to reference rape or sexual assault, they might give pause and ponder it. That will be the effect this has. Maybe they will choose not to do the strip. Maybe they will choose to do it anyway, either in the name of freedom or defiance. Who can predict? But as it stands, the amount of times they have referenced rape is negligible, and it stands to reason that given another 12, 24, 36, or however many years, the amount of times they would have referenced it in the future would also have been negligible. So even the memory of this won't have much of a chance to pop up very often.
1. Neither journal is particularly "high power." Journals with high power ranking carry more weight since their writers are often the best of the field, and the critique process may be more rigorous. These journals are fairly low-level, and as such two things are evident - higher ranking journals won't touch this stuff and for good reason (I know, because I looked), and the content of the articles you posted therefore deserves a higher level of skepticism.
2. At least one of the articles references Freudian theory. No one in professional psychiatry or psychology takes Freud's theory seriously, and in fact most consider it garbage (specifically, it is unscientific, and it cannot be tested or falsified like other theories). Freud's observations (esp. on things like defense mechanisms) are still spot-on, it's just that his explanations (for why those things happen) are worthless.
3. You make perhaps the most common mistake all undergrad freshmen in psychology make - you equate correlation with causation. This is flat-out wrong. One can never say "A is strongly associated with B, so surely A causes B, or maybe B causes A." No. In this case, there may be a correlation between enjoyment of sexist humor and actual sexist attitudes, but there is no proof whatsoever that one causes the other. And it is a huge jump to suggest that either such humor or attitudes would lead to actual harmful behavior. In fact, looking at the actual articles (which one can do on Medline), you'll see that the correlations are actually quite small. They are "statistically significant," but in terms of how big and important those differences are (e.g., effect size, usually measured in s/t like Cohen's D or eta squared, et al.), the effects are bordering on trivial.
Just posting articles does not help your argument - they should be *good* articles. And these are not.
FWIW, I am a psychologist and a professor of psychiatry at a medical school, and I'm not touching most of the stuff on this topic other than to say I hope it blows over quickly and without too much in the way of hurt feelings on *all* sides. I do find it sad that so many people on either side of the discussion are implying malice on the other side, when it doesn't appear that way to me at all...
A brief PA history of rape:
2003
2004
2007
2008
2010
And I'm sure there are more than I'm missing. Why is it just all of a sudden time to block PA and rant against it since they use rape jokes!!!
Which leads me to believe that the vocal minority that complained about the strip and the shirt are also completely uninformed about PA, which in turn makes it really really silly Gabe decided to take down the shirt.
The original comic: funny, in a way not related to rape. uses rape in a very exagerrated unrealistic sense. not super offensive, but a little bit, no more than most of their other comics.
The apology comic: shows that G&T really didn't get why people complained about the original comic. Rape culture isn't about condoning rape, but about trivializing it. Maybe the compliants people sent them were more retarded than this, I don't know. Again, only slightly offensive.
The dickwolves t-shirt: Honestly, kinda offensive. If you wear it or recognize it, you know what it's about. It's about rape. It's saying that you're a member of a group of rapists. Yeah, it's exaggerated rape for comedic effect, but you're still saying that exaggerated rape is funny, and that you identify with it. There's no other joke here that the rape is here to support; rape is the joke. Ok ok, a creature designed exclusively for rape, because that's such a big difference.
The neckbeard backlash: just stupid. It looks like it's orchestrated by shakesville, and there's nothing that can turn men against feminists quite like shakesville.
edit::
Here's a good way to sum it up, I think. The difference between the strip and the shirt is like the difference between playing Wolfenstein and wearing a swastika. They're related, but they're noooot quiiite the same.
Quite frankly, I just thought it was kind of a stupid looking shirt - one that most people would have only bought at this point to be edgy or confrontational (and don't come at me with "I'm wearing it to support Penny-Arcade!", to the people that object to it that is confrontational).
Nobody wants to see what they perceive as censorship or some sort of injustice done on PA, and while I personally have no issues with the original comic/response or the shirt even, I think that it was probably for the best that they take a step back and try to squash this thing before it gets even uglier.
That being said, I don't appreciate having mike/jerry accused of being "rape-apologists", as it makes me look like one too. It certainly does not help that some juvenile individual started a "team rape" twitter. The "fucknopennyarcade" tumblr is even worse - beyond missing the point of the original discourse they seem to be spewing some pretty intense vitriol over some shit that happened more than six months ago. I would say it has turned into some sort of dick-measuring contest but that might make me look misogynistic.
the dickwolves emblem represents a fake entity that fake did something bad that really represents nothing of substance since it's all imaginary. plus it's from a humour context as opposed to some sort of serious fictional account
You couldn't make a worse analogy
I used a real world symbol so as to pick one people would actually recognize. Whether it represents real life actions or imaginary ones doesn't matter, because the point is the person wearing it, and how much they identify with the action implied. People wearing dickwolf shirts probably haven't raped anyone, and people wearing swastikas nowadays probably haven't committed genocide, but they both have an implicit support of them, however ironic.
And the fact that it's a humor context for dickwolves is actually part of the whole 'rape culture' issue. It doesn't really make it better, as the whole reason people get up in arms about it is that rape is considered a joke.
If you can think of a good fictional group which supports large scale rape or murder to use instead of the nazi party, feel free to use it.
Anyway, tube has said no debating in this thread, so I'll try to make this my last post here.
I'm also disappointed to see the shirt go (though I never intended to buy one). Here's to it being an isolated incident, and PA regaining their throne of non-PC content.
The comic is funny, and the shirt is funny. I own one, and I feel sorry for those that are now missing out on an awesome piece of Penny Arcade merch.
That sounds pretty much great.
Clearly Mike & Jerry support rampant murdering of innocent civilians.
No? They also don't support rape. And are they diminishing my ability to restrain myself and not rape people through "Rape Culture". Let me check. No, I'm still as anti-raping as I was before I read the comic or saw the shirt.
See, I have a brain in my head. I use it to make my own decisions. I was helped growing up by having parents, who taught me right from wrong. And I'm not crazy.
All of those factors above will consistently over-ride anything TV, the internets, or T-Shirts tell me to do. People are so quick to blame society for everything there is no personal responsibility anymore. We have to censor our lives because we have to treat everyone like they're mentally invalid. Everything must be played down to the lowest common denominator because of the people who protest stuff like this.
People don't rape because they saw it on TV one too many times and figured "Hey, it's no big deal." They do it because they're worthless pieces of shit with no common decency for their fellow human beings (or they are mentally ill, due to any multitude of factors including abuse). Not because they saw a Dickwolves T-Shirt.
Tackle the issue at its source... educate people at a young age for those parents incapable of doing it themselves. Have better protection to get kids out of dangerous homes where they are mentally & sexually abused to the point where they break and become offenders themselves. Don't think that complaining on the internet & censoring free speech is going to solve this problem. I'm pretty sure people raped before the internet and off-color T-shirts existed.
Clearly I underthought the whole thing.
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
It'd be the same thing if they began selling merch from the Draw a Horse thing that went around last year. My google-fu is weak and I can't find any examples right now. But if you saw one, you'd probably think "I'd want that on a shirt, even though I can't possibly think of where I'd be comfortable wearing it!"
Steam: TheArcadeBear
No, but posting a blog that basically says "Fuck you" certainly doesn't help. It wouldn't hurt them to write something up that basically says, "We don't want any of our fans to be assholes about this."
I'd also appreciate this. It's at the point where I'm uncomfortable to call myself a Penny Arcade fan, simply because of guilt by association with slew of people who are being utter jerks about the entire thing. A reminder of Wheaton's Law would serve these guys well.
@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
"The US"
":evil:"
"I'm one of the good ones."
"Oh."
I'm not ashamed to be part of the PA community at all as a result of this, because there are still the same great people here that I've grown to know and respect as well as the same masses of people that seem just ok to me and I'm pretty ok with, and the same occasional people that I have little to no respect for. Pretty much like any other gathering of people. The community doesn't define me.
It would have been ideal in the sense that this shitstorm would have been entirely avoided. The bloggers would have moaned on their blogs and their readers would have continued to agree with them. Meanwhile no one else would have known or cared. Eventually they would have got bored or found a real problem to focus on. Meanwhile the shirt has been removed and everyone is now happy. And no one has got the impression that self-righteous e-mails can shape PA's business decisions. Believe me this is not the last time something somewhere is going to offend these people, you said it yourself "rape culture" is ridiculously overblown. PA is going to have to draw a line in the sand somewhere and when they do, people are going to complain their "demands" are no longer being met.
Also don't for a second lump me in with the "rape victims should stop whining" people. Thinking she kirbybits is unrealistic in her methods does not make me a supporter of rape no matter how easy it is to strawman her detractors in that way. Of course they have a right to complain or talk about their experiences. But they should be speaking to therapists, or their friends or family. Going on the internet and starting crusades to try and change everyone else’s behaviour because it upsets them is neither a practical or realistic way of dealing with their experiences.
As for her not speaking on behalf of all sexual assault victims or trying to sanitise the world, go read her blog. That is completely what she is doing. She doesn't even acknowledge the possibility that there are sexual assault victims who react to their experience differently from her.
No. This is not the case.
I don't even think I've taken a side. I think that both parties have reacted very strongly, and I think the only people who have really been 'dicks' are Mike, with his ridiculous joking dismissal of people, and a select portion of the community who are pulling a /b/ whenever possible.
I think the strip, while perhaps inflammatory, is fine. Any topic should and can be the subject of humour. And hell, in this strip, rape wasn't even the subject. I think Stanton et al are perfectly justified in their outrage, irritation, or however it should best be described, especially at the shirt itself, and I think it's fair to call it a 'support Team Rape' shirt. I am certain that trigger words and events exist - at PAX 09, an acquaintance had to leave the event entirely because the crush outside the Main Theatre between was causing post-traumatic stress from his time in the military. I'm certain that the strip could have been a trigger for some people. However, I'm equally certain that the indication that Mike and Jerry should consider this when making any strip is laughable.
I'm annoyed at Penny Arcade for dealing with the situation incredibly badly. They didn't reject the premise of the detractors' arguments, and instead focused directly on the dickwolves themselves, a throwaway joke to reinforce the main one - thus making it the subject in a way it didn't need to be. I'm irritated with Stanton et al for assuming that the audience of Penny Arcade is not able to distinguish that the point of the comic isn't 'ha ha, rape'. I'm disappointed in the section of the community that decided they wanted to prove her right.
Does that count as a 'side'? If so, can we get more people on it?
@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
Penny Arcade regularly celebrates its influence; in charity, in community, and in the industry. It's entirely disingenuous to discount that influence when its effects are less glamorous, or even downright ugly. If, as they so often say, they want to be a positive force within the gaming community, then they ought to avoid doing things that harm our community just as much as they act to promote it. The gaming community is not strengthened by ostracizing or marginalizing its vulnerable members when they speak up for themselves. Just a few weeks ago the strip lampooned the bullying geeks sometimes endure. Is it better in some way when we do it to each other?
Do I think the original strip was harmful to our community? Not in itself, no. A bit insensitive? Surely, but almost as surely not intentionally. Their response to the criticism the strip received however, was graceless and plainly toxic to the ideal of an inclusive community of gamers. We can do better; Mike and Jerry can do better; and we should.
It's really the response that's pissed people off: the response comic just erected a strawman and the merch just pours salt on the wound. Mike's tweets are doing nothing to help the situation.
This isn't Jack Thompson, American Greetings, EA or some such. They're rape survivors, and I cannot say how terrible it is to wear a Dickwolf shirt at PAX just to spite these people.
So basically, I agree with you with a minor exception.
This is the bright future that idiocy has robbed us of.
If you have to be angry at something, be angry that no promising young man will grow up to be the Dickwolves Tight-End.
If you must be outraged, be outraged at the loss of a Dickwolves Super Bowl.
If you must weep, please I beg of you, weep for the fact that we will never see the Dickwolves in their true habitat. Running, majestic as the long extinct Genocidebadger, down the turf of Dick Wolf stadium.
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
Oh, I don't think the people complaining about the comic don't understand it. But on my first impression of the idea of rape culture, a key part of it is the implication that discussing or mentioning something desensitizes people to it by default, which I immediately disagree with. When applied specifically to this strip, that implication applies to the PA audience, and as part of that audience I resent the supposition that I'm unable to differentiate between commentary, mention, and support.
What I know of rape culture, though, comes entirely from the mention of it over the last few days, and I've not read too much background or academic info that talks about this kind of psychology - so this might be a misinformed viewpoint.
@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
We had a fantastic thread on media in D&D at one point that shows how psychology in the past century has been used to subconsciously direct our thoughts. The "rape culture" concept is really not all that far off.
A lot of these blogs are quite interesting to read, if a bit difficult to initially wrap your head around.
After doing some brief reading, I think my stance is that I'm pretty sure that rape culture does exist, in the sphere of 'Roman Polanski should not be tried because he made some good films' and 'I don't care that this sportsman is a rapist, he's good at playing his sport' and 'she hung around with rapists, what did she expect'. Fortunately whenever I have heard these arguments before I've naturally rejected them, and while I'd hope that most people would I've experienced arguments before where people have expressed those exact opinions.
But hey, the D&D thread is moving pretty quickly now, so I'm moving this over there.
@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
However I will say this: Once you can't make fun of something, nothing is allowed.
You can discuss the validity in jokes about rape, race, murder, etc.. all day long, but at the end of the day you're simply saying it is ok to make fun of one thing an not another. That might not be the message you're trying to display, but if you don't fight for your artistic freedom then what is the point of speaking out in the first place?
I will team with you, sir, and I will also add that I am most annoyed at the people stalking and dissecting Mike's every word and action (like his iTunes playlist) and the people typing poorly spelled death threats at kirbybits et al.
What’s kept me going, what’s really inspired me over all those years is Mike and Jerry. I mean, Mike showed me that, ‘comic’ drawing can be an art form. Jerry that writing news posts can mean something, that they can be an art form too. And it’s been a privilege to watch the two of them grow as artists.
What’s inspired me more is probably what they’ve done with their talents. They’ve gone from two geeks working horrible day jobs to the most influential people in the video games industry. Child’s Play and PAX are beautiful, beautiful things and proof that, occasionally, the good guys win in real life, too.
But they’re reaction--Mike’s especially--to this whole thing has left me feeling really let down (which has been handily collected here). They’ve made themselves ambassadors for gaming culture, and this is how they react? This is how they represent us? They’re not the people I thought they were. Turns out they’re not the good guys after all.
So maybe I’m taking this personally but, well, can’t help the way we feel, can we? I feel let down and disappointed and like people I thought were friends are ass-hats just like everyone else. So, this is me saying goodbye to Penny Arcade. At least until I can think of them as friends again.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
You can argue for or against triggers or rape culture.
What bothers me is that it's caused division in the ranks, and made the PA community feel less inclusive. (Probably because a lot of the trolls are claiming to be PA fans, even if they're not really part of the family).
I wish Mike would stop antagonizing folks on twitter and just lay low instead of giving them more ammo.
I think it's an opportunity for the good PA fans to embrace Wheaton's law and try to undo some of the collateral damage. I've tried to talk to some folks who were thinking of canceling their PAX trip and make them feel welcome, assure them it's still going to be a good time. So...good time to not be a troll, not write the smartass response, good time to remember it's about games, comics, and fun, not psychology and politics and winning a forum argument.