My god, this whole thing is ridiculous. When I first read that comic, I immediately thought of WoW and those NPCs that are left to suffer while a select few are chosen to be saved. Then you guys made a Dickwolves shirt and started selling it and I thought, "Oh, I won't buy this but the picture of the wolf looks cool." Now it's taken down because of the vocal minority
I don't think it should've happened but I understand why it did. But why now though? PA has released many comics featuring murder and other unsavory acts but not until now has it caused quite the storm. Maybe it was the shirt that sent the minority over the edge, or maybe it was that woman I've never heard of who said she wasn't speaking at PAX East because of the Dickwolves thing. I don't know what exactly it was, but in my opinion, all of their comics should be taken with a grain of salt. I find it ludicrous that Mike and Jerry would perpetuate the rape culture and like the parents who complained about GTA and the gratuitous violence, it's highly unlikely that anyone would want to imitate what occurred in a video game/comic strip
My only hope is that this won't mar PAX East. The last thing I want to hear is people constantly talking about this or people asking Jerry and Mike their opinions at the Q and A panels. The only thing that was lost was a shirt that you could only really wear in private. If so many people want it back that much, then just sell the shirt with just the wolf head. It looks pretty awesome by itself
I'm annoyed at Penny Arcade for dealing with the situation incredibly badly.
Yeah, that's about where I am on the issue. I just.... I wish shit didn't happen the way it happened. Does that make sense to you?
I think the original strip was totally hilarious and right on target. The negative reaction from some people... yeah, that shit happens, they didn't get the joke. The reaction strip and commentary were both creepy and weird, though. But hey, I've seen Mike get a little defensive about his stuff before, it's all good. I figured things were gonna cool off after that, but then the shirt came out. The shirt is ugly.
No no, I'm not talking about the politics of the shirt, I just think it looks bad. On aesthetic grounds alone, I'm not upset about its abrupt passing. As for the message of the shirt, perceived or otherwise... yeah, whatever. If you're gonna wear that thing in public, I'm more than likely just gonna lump you in with the /b/tards who go walking around in public wearing PEDOBEAR SEAL OF APPROVAL t-shirts.
You know what I would like? A Penny Arcade shirt that looked like a hockey jersey. Or a soccer one! Like, with a neat crest and a collar, maybe a two-tone deal like Blackburn Rovers or different-colored sleeves like Arsenal. You know what I'm saying? I would buy one of those.
Uh. Anyway. Mostly I just don't like that this keeps rearing its head, and a lot of it is down to nice people being really pissy about stuff. I think Mike has said some unfortunate stuff on his twitter, and I think that the weirdos who carefully scrutinized his iTunes playlist for evidence that he was subtly mocking them over uStream are... uh, weirdos, and I'm really, really creeped out by the guys (they're all guys ) posting angry rants about how I GUESS WE CAN'T MAKE JOKES ANYMORE, HUH? and slinging around 'feminist' like it's some kind of perjorative (what is THAT about?). The two guys screaming about how we need to rape kirby... bits? (is that a reference to the pink dude?) to teach her a lesson are just trolls. Ugly, and best ignored.
I've got a bunch of friends (more than five, at this point, and if people keep being dicks the number will probably go up a bit more) who are taking a breather on PAX East. They wanna go and hang out, but they're worried that encountering people wearing the Dickwolf shirt will skeeze them out, and possibly even lead to some sort of angry argument. I'm still going (and taking my 11 year old nephew... I hope he doesn't catch any bad mojo from this, this is literally the highlight of his year!) but to steal a line from the Dude, this is messing with my zen, man!
Mostly I just hope we can all figure this out together and stop being mad at each other. Can't we all just get a game of Mario Kart going?
Really, regardless of what the strip--either of them--said, or that the shirt was released (especially after the second strip, meaning they knew it was controversial), I think the most damning part of this is Gabe's public twitter post in response to someone asking if it would be okay to wear the shirt if they already owned it, wherein he said, "I'm wearing mine."
This right here says everything I need to know. Gabe posted that PAX needs to be a safe place where everyone could feel included, and that's why the shirt was pulled from the store. His post where he said so was a little inflammatory, but maybe that was just a poor choice of words, who can be sure.
But, knowing that this is an issue which has hurt peoples' feelings, caused blog posts aplenty, threats and insults across the board from both sides, he still indicates he's going to wear the shirt, a dividing symbol of exactly what PAX isn't supposed to be, and which was pulled from the store for that reason? Seriously, what the Hell. How can anyone promote PAX as a place where everyone can come together and then proceed to broadcast the most hot-button issue the strip has seen lately, if not ever? It undermines any indication he's given of the intentions behind PAX.
I thought about sending an e-mail to Gabe or Tycho, trying to appeal to reason and logic, asking if they would have made the strip had one of their wives had been raped, if they would have released the shirt then or reacted the way they did in their follow-up strip. If the answer is yes, then I just don't know what to say. If the answer is no then evidencing any level of empathy for the effects of this, why would they react this way?
Call me a whiner, call me wrong or whatever you want, but this entire thing has tarnished the concept of PAX for me as a get-together where everyone was a potential friend and we were all united under one common love of gaming. The strip is the strip: I thought the original comic was funny and I don't regret thinking so, but the actions since have gone too far and brought a taint to the extracurricular activities that the PA group undertake.
This is just an example of bad PR. While it is first and foremost a webcomic, it is also a business and a community as well. It needs to make sure that it isn't representing itself nor its community badly. It's pretty clear Mike failed at doing that.
Really, regardless of what the strip--either of them--said, or that the shirt was released (especially after the second strip, meaning they knew it was controversial), I think the most damning part of this is Gabe's public twitter post in response to someone asking if it would be okay to wear the shirt if they already owned it, wherein he said, "I'm wearing mine."
This right here says everything I need to know. Gabe posted that PAX needs to be a safe place where everyone could feel included, and that's why the shirt was pulled from the store. His post where he said so was a little inflammatory, but maybe that was just a poor choice of words, who can be sure.
But, knowing that this is an issue which has hurt peoples' feelings, caused blog posts aplenty, threats and insults across the board from both sides, he still indicates he's going to wear the shirt, a dividing symbol of exactly what PAX isn't supposed to be, and which was pulled from the store for that reason? Seriously, what the Hell. How can anyone promote PAX as a place where everyone can come together and then proceed to broadcast the most hot-button issue the strip has seen lately, if not ever? It undermines any indication he's given of the intentions behind PAX.
I thought about sending an e-mail to Gabe or Tycho, trying to appeal to reason and logic, asking if they would have made the strip had one of their wives had been raped, if they would have released the shirt then or reacted the way they did in their follow-up strip. If the answer is yes, then I just don't know what to say. If the answer is no then evidencing any level of empathy for the effects of this, why would they react this way?
Call me a whiner, call me wrong or whatever you want, but this entire thing has tarnished the concept of PAX for me as a get-together where everyone was a potential friend and we were all united under one common love of gaming. The strip is the strip: I thought the original comic was funny and I don't regret thinking so, but the actions since have gone too far and brought a taint to the extracurricular activities that the PA group undertake.
I think this misinterprets the idea of taking the shirt down. Taking it down takes the idea of profit out of the equation. But, short of banning the shirt, there's no way to keep people from wearing it to the con - and that's not their aim anyway. I don't think they would ever tell anyone what to wear or what to find funny; and I think that's the point of Mike saying he's going to wear the shirt.
Those who oppose Mike keep moving the target - at this point, I don't think it would be enough if he personally burned every Dickwolf shirt printed and stayed permanently chained to Twitter for the next ten years to call off anybody trying to troll Ms. Bits. Mike doesn't owe anyone anything; there's no law saying "artists must be nice even when you accuse them of supporting rape under their breath".
Clearly these two sets of people will never see eye to eye on what's funny - if that's a dealbreaker for anybody, fine, let's stop the bus and you can get off; and the rest of us can move on.
But, knowing that this is an issue which has hurt peoples' feelings, caused blog posts aplenty, threats and insults across the board from both sides, he still indicates he's going to wear the shirt, a dividing symbol of exactly what PAX isn't supposed to be, and which was pulled from the store for that reason? Seriously, what the Hell. How can anyone promote PAX as a place where everyone can come together and then proceed to broadcast the most hot-button issue the strip has seen lately, if not ever? It undermines any indication he's given of the intentions behind PAX.
I think this misinterprets the idea of taking the shirt down. Taking it down takes the idea of profit out of the equation. But, short of banning the shirt, there's no way to keep people from wearing it to the con - and that's not their aim anyway. I don't think they would ever tell anyone what to wear or what to find funny; and I think that's the point of Mike saying he's going to wear the shirt.
Those who oppose Mike keep moving the target - at this point, I don't think it would be enough if he personally burned every Dickwolf shirt printed and stayed permanently chained to Twitter for the next ten years to call off anybody trying to troll Ms. Bits. Mike doesn't owe anyone anything; there's no law saying "artists must be nice even when you accuse them of supporting rape under their breath".
Clearly these two sets of people will never see eye to eye on what's funny - if that's a dealbreaker for anybody, fine, let's stop the bus and you can get off; and the rest of us can move on.
I guess only Mike knows the true reason for taking the shirt down, but the blog post he made Saturday didn't mention profit or anything about that as a reason for taking the shirt down. He specifically cited people who said selling the shirt made them feel less safe at PAX. And taking the shirt down for that reason is a noble gesture. People had three months to buy one before that point.
Mike may not owe anyone anything, but he does need to be cognizant of the image he portrays. Both he and Jerry are the faces of Penny Arcade. That includes PAX and Child's Play. If the PA empire consisted solely of the comic strip, this wouldn't be an issue, but since they have a con and a multi-million dollar charity to think about, it becomes a different matter. There comes a point where everyone involved in business (or philanthropy for that matter) has to learn to suck it up and present an image that is good for their organization. While that doesn't mean bending over backwards (or even taking the shirt down in the first place), actively antagonizing people of the public through futile gestures like wearing an inflammatory shirt does not fit the bill.
When people write e-mails or post messages accusing them of being rape supporters, then I'm all for them defending themselves. I'd even have been in favor of leaving the shirt up and giving a thought-out explanation of what the shirt's intent was and why it was remaining. But when you know how things stand and you choose to take an action like this, that's rubbing peoples' noses in the matter, and PAX is entirely the wrong venue to do so; I thought it was supposed to be a convention for the people, not a soapbox.
Mike may not owe anyone anything, but he does need to be cognizant of the image he portrays. Both he and Jerry are the faces of Penny Arcade. That includes PAX and Child's Play. If the PA empire consisted solely of the comic strip, this wouldn't be an issue, but since they have a con and a multi-million dollar charity to think about, it becomes a different matter. There comes a point where everyone involved in business (or philanthropy for that matter) has to learn to suck it up and present an image that is good for their organization. While that doesn't mean bending over backwards (or even taking the shirt down in the first place), actively antagonizing people of the public through futile gestures like wearing an inflammatory shirt does not fit the bill.
When people write e-mails or post messages accusing them of being rape supporters, then I'm all for them defending themselves. I'd even have been in favor of leaving the shirt up and giving a thought-out explanation of what the shirt's intent was and why it was remaining. But when you know how things stand and you choose to take an action like this, that's rubbing peoples' noses in the matter, and PAX is entirely the wrong venue to do so; I thought it was supposed to be a convention for the people, not a soapbox.
Agreed, I think this whole situation has been horribly mishandled. Something that should have been forgotten months ago is turning into a PR train wreck, for Mike at least.
chuckleberryfinn on
No Protoss players were underpowered during this post.
Agreed, I think this whole situation has been horribly mishandled. Something that should have been forgotten months ago is turning into a PR train wreck.
It's worth noting: this also ought to be a PR train wreck for those who attack Gabe and Tycho as mean spirited or "rape apologists". Except, oops, they're anonymous or they're just another blogger/twitterer/userid on the internet.
It is possible to be critical of gamer culture (and Penny Arcade PR) while defending Mike and Jerry as great guys who care muchly about the community they've helped build. It's exactly because Mike is a classy guy that he set out in his own words (not some PR-speak gobbledygook) why things are the way they are. I can criticize the words chosen without denying the honest intent to make PAX a welcoming place for all gamers.
Agreed, I think this whole situation has been horribly mishandled. Something that should have been forgotten months ago is turning into a PR train wreck.
It's worth noting: this also ought to be a PR train wreck for those who attack Gabe and Tycho as mean spirited or "rape apologists". Except, oops, they're anonymous or they're just another blogger/twitterer/userid on the internet.
It is possible to be critical of gamer culture (and Penny Arcade PR) while defending Mike and Jerry as great guys who care muchly about the community they've helped build. It's exactly because Mike is a classy guy that he set out in his own words (not some PR-speak gobbledygook) why things are the way they are. I can criticize the words chosen without denying the honest intent to make PAX a welcoming place for all gamers.
Just saying.
Understood man and you're right. The double standard exists because of the huge appeal of PA/PAX/Child's Play. As Ultrace said:
I can criticize the words chosen without denying the honest intent to make PAX a welcoming place for all gamers.
Just saying.
I simply have a hard time accepting an "honest intent to make PAX a welcoming place for all gamers" (good wording) when he wears an article of clothing which symbolizes an "us versus them" issue. That does not equate to welcoming all.
I think it will be ok to criticize him if/when we see him wear the shirt at PAX. Until then, it's all speculation (even if he said he would on Twitter)
I hope he doesn't go through with it but we'll see what happens. He has a month to mull things over
This is what Gabe just posted on the front page, and I wanted to repost here it to make sure it was seen.
"I think this has really gone too far. We have people on both sides of this ridiculous argument making death threats and worse. Kara was certainly upset to see someone mention on Twitter last night that it would be funny to come to my house and murder my wife and children. I know there are people who see themselves as being on our side that have made equally disgusting comments in the other direction. I want to make it very clear that I do not approve of this kind of bullshit.
I am certainly guilty of being snarky, sarcastic and rude. I apologize if that gave anyone the impression that I would ever condone this sort of behavior. If you are out there making these sorts of threats thinking that you are somehow doing our good work, please stop. I never should have engaged them at all much less the way I did. Obviously Courtney Stanton has been very vocal about her dislike of us and our behavior. But she is not censoring us, she has not stripped away our freedom of speech. She didn’t even have anything to do with our decision to remove the shirt. I’m sure she is just as upset with the threats being made by people who consider themselves her supporters. So I’m asking you to please leave her alone.
Personally I’m done with this argument and I’m asking you all to be done with it as well. Don’t go read the blogs, don’t respond to the Tweets, just let it go. Thank You.
Posts
I don't think it should've happened but I understand why it did. But why now though? PA has released many comics featuring murder and other unsavory acts but not until now has it caused quite the storm. Maybe it was the shirt that sent the minority over the edge, or maybe it was that woman I've never heard of who said she wasn't speaking at PAX East because of the Dickwolves thing. I don't know what exactly it was, but in my opinion, all of their comics should be taken with a grain of salt. I find it ludicrous that Mike and Jerry would perpetuate the rape culture and like the parents who complained about GTA and the gratuitous violence, it's highly unlikely that anyone would want to imitate what occurred in a video game/comic strip
My only hope is that this won't mar PAX East. The last thing I want to hear is people constantly talking about this or people asking Jerry and Mike their opinions at the Q and A panels. The only thing that was lost was a shirt that you could only really wear in private. If so many people want it back that much, then just sell the shirt with just the wolf head. It looks pretty awesome by itself
Yeah, that's about where I am on the issue. I just.... I wish shit didn't happen the way it happened. Does that make sense to you?
I think the original strip was totally hilarious and right on target. The negative reaction from some people... yeah, that shit happens, they didn't get the joke. The reaction strip and commentary were both creepy and weird, though. But hey, I've seen Mike get a little defensive about his stuff before, it's all good. I figured things were gonna cool off after that, but then the shirt came out. The shirt is ugly.
No no, I'm not talking about the politics of the shirt, I just think it looks bad. On aesthetic grounds alone, I'm not upset about its abrupt passing. As for the message of the shirt, perceived or otherwise... yeah, whatever. If you're gonna wear that thing in public, I'm more than likely just gonna lump you in with the /b/tards who go walking around in public wearing PEDOBEAR SEAL OF APPROVAL t-shirts.
You know what I would like? A Penny Arcade shirt that looked like a hockey jersey. Or a soccer one! Like, with a neat crest and a collar, maybe a two-tone deal like Blackburn Rovers or different-colored sleeves like Arsenal. You know what I'm saying? I would buy one of those.
Uh. Anyway. Mostly I just don't like that this keeps rearing its head, and a lot of it is down to nice people being really pissy about stuff. I think Mike has said some unfortunate stuff on his twitter, and I think that the weirdos who carefully scrutinized his iTunes playlist for evidence that he was subtly mocking them over uStream are... uh, weirdos, and I'm really, really creeped out by the guys (they're all guys
I've got a bunch of friends (more than five, at this point, and if people keep being dicks the number will probably go up a bit more) who are taking a breather on PAX East. They wanna go and hang out, but they're worried that encountering people wearing the Dickwolf shirt will skeeze them out, and possibly even lead to some sort of angry argument. I'm still going (and taking my 11 year old nephew... I hope he doesn't catch any bad mojo from this, this is literally the highlight of his year!) but to steal a line from the Dude, this is messing with my zen, man!
Mostly I just hope we can all figure this out together and stop being mad at each other. Can't we all just get a game of Mario Kart going?
This right here says everything I need to know. Gabe posted that PAX needs to be a safe place where everyone could feel included, and that's why the shirt was pulled from the store. His post where he said so was a little inflammatory, but maybe that was just a poor choice of words, who can be sure.
But, knowing that this is an issue which has hurt peoples' feelings, caused blog posts aplenty, threats and insults across the board from both sides, he still indicates he's going to wear the shirt, a dividing symbol of exactly what PAX isn't supposed to be, and which was pulled from the store for that reason? Seriously, what the Hell. How can anyone promote PAX as a place where everyone can come together and then proceed to broadcast the most hot-button issue the strip has seen lately, if not ever? It undermines any indication he's given of the intentions behind PAX.
I thought about sending an e-mail to Gabe or Tycho, trying to appeal to reason and logic, asking if they would have made the strip had one of their wives had been raped, if they would have released the shirt then or reacted the way they did in their follow-up strip. If the answer is yes, then I just don't know what to say. If the answer is no then evidencing any level of empathy for the effects of this, why would they react this way?
Call me a whiner, call me wrong or whatever you want, but this entire thing has tarnished the concept of PAX for me as a get-together where everyone was a potential friend and we were all united under one common love of gaming. The strip is the strip: I thought the original comic was funny and I don't regret thinking so, but the actions since have gone too far and brought a taint to the extracurricular activities that the PA group undertake.
Steam: CavilatRest
I think this misinterprets the idea of taking the shirt down. Taking it down takes the idea of profit out of the equation. But, short of banning the shirt, there's no way to keep people from wearing it to the con - and that's not their aim anyway. I don't think they would ever tell anyone what to wear or what to find funny; and I think that's the point of Mike saying he's going to wear the shirt.
Those who oppose Mike keep moving the target - at this point, I don't think it would be enough if he personally burned every Dickwolf shirt printed and stayed permanently chained to Twitter for the next ten years to call off anybody trying to troll Ms. Bits. Mike doesn't owe anyone anything; there's no law saying "artists must be nice even when you accuse them of supporting rape under their breath".
Clearly these two sets of people will never see eye to eye on what's funny - if that's a dealbreaker for anybody, fine, let's stop the bus and you can get off; and the rest of us can move on.
Mike may not owe anyone anything, but he does need to be cognizant of the image he portrays. Both he and Jerry are the faces of Penny Arcade. That includes PAX and Child's Play. If the PA empire consisted solely of the comic strip, this wouldn't be an issue, but since they have a con and a multi-million dollar charity to think about, it becomes a different matter. There comes a point where everyone involved in business (or philanthropy for that matter) has to learn to suck it up and present an image that is good for their organization. While that doesn't mean bending over backwards (or even taking the shirt down in the first place), actively antagonizing people of the public through futile gestures like wearing an inflammatory shirt does not fit the bill.
When people write e-mails or post messages accusing them of being rape supporters, then I'm all for them defending themselves. I'd even have been in favor of leaving the shirt up and giving a thought-out explanation of what the shirt's intent was and why it was remaining. But when you know how things stand and you choose to take an action like this, that's rubbing peoples' noses in the matter, and PAX is entirely the wrong venue to do so; I thought it was supposed to be a convention for the people, not a soapbox.
Agreed, I think this whole situation has been horribly mishandled. Something that should have been forgotten months ago is turning into a PR train wreck, for Mike at least.
It's worth noting: this also ought to be a PR train wreck for those who attack Gabe and Tycho as mean spirited or "rape apologists". Except, oops, they're anonymous or they're just another blogger/twitterer/userid on the internet.
It is possible to be critical of gamer culture (and Penny Arcade PR) while defending Mike and Jerry as great guys who care muchly about the community they've helped build. It's exactly because Mike is a classy guy that he set out in his own words (not some PR-speak gobbledygook) why things are the way they are. I can criticize the words chosen without denying the honest intent to make PAX a welcoming place for all gamers.
Just saying.
Understood man and you're right. The double standard exists because of the huge appeal of PA/PAX/Child's Play. As Ultrace said:
I hope he doesn't go through with it but we'll see what happens. He has a month to mull things over