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Could use some advice (Career decision)
Godfather
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Okay, so usually I ask H/A for some pretty superficial help, but this issue is very important so I could use some fresh opinions. This hopefully won't be too lengthy, so i'll surmise as best I can.
The whole ordeal basically goes like this:
Back when I graduated high school I had decided to pursue art as a living. Since I didn't start drawing until midway through my junior year I thought I had no shot in getting into a recognized art school in the states. I had planned to go to Full Sail with a buddy of mine, but after hearing some not-so-pleasant student reviews of the institution we both decided against it. Thing is, unfortunately, I had put all my eggs in that basket, and decided to sway away from FS after graduating high school. My buddy then went on his two-year mormon trip while I had to ponder what on earth I was going to do.
A few months later I hear about this private animation school called Max the Mutt, way up in Toronto. Art schools in general cost and arm and a leg in the states ($120,000), and my dad wasn't gonna spring for that kind of investment. So when I read about this school, what it's all about and the fact that the entire tuition would cost only $30,000 for all 3 years, I jumped at the chance. I applied in November of '07 and got accepted for fall of '08, which was a huge relief for me. All I had to do was wait it out till then and work to build up funds.
That year gap between high school graduation and my first year of college was actually pretty tough to deal with; I was always working, the few friends I had moved away to college, and I had to live with my parents with nobody else around. I was pretty lonely and miserable to be honest.
So I eventually get to the school in T.O. and study up there full time for two solid years. Eventually life got in the way, and I was forced to study part time for my third year, and well, this is where the problem starts.
Since I was studying abroad, and my field of study was very specific, there are only a few areas you can go where you could get work for it. The animation hubs in North America were San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York and Toronto. Since I was already in Toronto, and since it would easily be the cheapest and quickest way to break into the industry, I decided to look into becoming a Permanent Resident. From what I found out through teachers and working professionals, the studios have no incentive to hire an immigrant outside of Canada, especially in a competitive field like this one. The government basically gives the animation companies either a tax break or a bonus for hiring residents/citizens over an immigrant, I guess to help stimulate the economy or something. So if I want to be on equal plain like everyone else, I needed to get Permanent Resident status.
Ok, no problem I thought. I'll just apply for a work permit, graduate the school then apply for whatever's the next step. Simple right?
Well not quite. Since I was studying at a private institution that wasn't a recognized government institution, I wasn't allowed to apply for a student work permit at all. I tried everything to secure a regular work permit, but to do that you need to already be hired by a company in Canada who's willing to go through a lot of red tape with the government to prove why they'd hire you over a citizen. So it's not working.
After researching more, I found out that you need to have worked a full year in Canada in order to apply for a Permanent Resident card, among other requirements. The other things I did just fine on, but the lack of work experience flat-out killed my chances of making enough points to qualify. What’s worse was that the only way to get those work hours in was with something called a Post-Graduate Work Permit, and you could only get that through a government-accredited program.
So I basically found out that there was no way for me to work/live in Canada through this private school I was studying at. In order to make getting a PR card a possibility, I’d need to transfer to another, government-recognized school, and study there for no less than two years before I could even apply for a Post-Grad work permit. What’s worse is that, because of the private institution status of my last school, those credits would not transfer at all, so if I were to study animation again I’d have to put in another 3 years.
So as you can tell, this was quite the shock for me. I was originally going to pursue this two-year illustration program in lieu of Animation (I would have to pay for one of the years myself), and use that to get my PR status, but then another fact came up that made it even more complicated! When you graduate and obtain a Post-Grad permit, only certain job types would count towards the hours I’d need in order to successfully apply for a Permanent Resident Card. So working at a starbucks, busting tables, or doing a regular retail job wouldn’t qualify; it would need to be a specialized job, and probably a skill I’d pick up from college. Since the only work you can get as an illustrator is mainly freelance, it wouldn’t net me those hours I’d need. Also, your Post-Grad permit is only as long as your study time, so I’d only get two years to put in one year of full-time work. Oi.
I pretty much decided to pick a more marketable profession after that, and after careful consideration decided to shoot for web design. It’s very in demand in Toronto, it pays well and the subject material interests me. The college program is also two-years, so it’s a perfect fit to boot. The buddy I was going to attend Full Sail with does that for a living, and gets paid handsomely for it ($50 and hour). He told me he’d be willing to teach me from the ground up once I come home.
So even though I was sad to leave animation behind, I knew that this was the best option for me given my circumstances.
Now here’s my dilemha:
I’ve been studying in Canada for almost 3 school years now, and since I studied at this private school I have nothing to show for it on paper. I learned a hell of a lot drawing-wise so it was worth the money, but I don’t have a degree, any transferrable credits and it’s a field I am no longer studying. I have one more year of support from my folks and then I have to pay the bills, which I am happy to do.
I did the math, and after adding in the international tuition fees, cost of housing and food, it would cost around $20,000 a year. My immigration consultant told me that those two years of study have to be consistent in order to apply for a Post-Grad work permit (i.e. no semester off so I can save up cash), so I will need to go home, find any job and save up the bulk of twenty grand before leaving for school again. I’ll be able to work while studying this time thankfully, so it should be smooth sailing to get the rest of the money. It’s a lot of hoops I have to jump through, but if something I’d love to do if it allows me to work and live in Toronto with a profession I like.
Now my Dad doesn’t see the appeal. He thinks I’m gonna find another hang-up I can’t get past like the last few times. I told him that all of those problems would be resolved because I would be studying at a government institution; everything from being able to legally work to getting a degree to applying for a PR card would be a pretty seamless transition now that I’m doing it correctly. He’s still not convinced, and thinks I could do the same thing back home in the middle of bumfuck Texas.
I keep telling him that, like animation, it’s where you live that makes the difference in landing a job. I know for a fact that web design is huge in Toronto, and there are a lot of studio opportunities up here and internships you can get through the school and through networking connections in a city. As far as I know the only opportunities in Texas are in Austin, and it’s just as expensive to live/study (maybe more so) down there than it is up here.
He has a real difficult time looking through this whole immigration thing, and thinks I should just wash my hands of it entirely, give up on the matter and study down in Texas instead.
Now if I study in the states, I’ll lose my opportunity to live in Canada for good. As a bachelor status with no family ties or marriage planned, this is my only way to secure Residency. It requires no less than two years of study in order to get the post-grad work permit, and then you use that to rack up the hours to fulfill the PR requirements to apply. If I study for a year in Toronto and a year in Texas I won’t be able to do this at all, so it’s extremely important to do it all in Canada. However, he’s the one holding the pocketbook strings, and it’ll take a long time to save up another $20,000 on top of the first one, so I need his support badly.
I’ve lived up here for almost three years now. This is where I grew up the most as an individual, I have sturdy friendships up here, connections to get me where I need to be, many career opportunities and it’s a city that I love living in. If I go home permanently I’m going to have to start all over again, in a place that I’m just sick of living in with no real friends, connections and limited opportunity. Pretty soon I’d force myself to move out, and then things like car payments, insurance, rent, taxes and other bills would start pouring in.
I will get trapped down there, with no way out. I really do not want this.
So I guess I could use some advice on this whole situation cause it’s pretty fucked up to be frank. What should I do about this scenario? How could I make it so I don’t get swamped in Texas till it’s too late to leave?
The whole ordeal basically goes like this:
Back when I graduated high school I had decided to pursue art as a living. Since I didn't start drawing until midway through my junior year I thought I had no shot in getting into a recognized art school in the states. I had planned to go to Full Sail with a buddy of mine, but after hearing some not-so-pleasant student reviews of the institution we both decided against it. Thing is, unfortunately, I had put all my eggs in that basket, and decided to sway away from FS after graduating high school. My buddy then went on his two-year mormon trip while I had to ponder what on earth I was going to do.
A few months later I hear about this private animation school called Max the Mutt, way up in Toronto. Art schools in general cost and arm and a leg in the states ($120,000), and my dad wasn't gonna spring for that kind of investment. So when I read about this school, what it's all about and the fact that the entire tuition would cost only $30,000 for all 3 years, I jumped at the chance. I applied in November of '07 and got accepted for fall of '08, which was a huge relief for me. All I had to do was wait it out till then and work to build up funds.
That year gap between high school graduation and my first year of college was actually pretty tough to deal with; I was always working, the few friends I had moved away to college, and I had to live with my parents with nobody else around. I was pretty lonely and miserable to be honest.
So I eventually get to the school in T.O. and study up there full time for two solid years. Eventually life got in the way, and I was forced to study part time for my third year, and well, this is where the problem starts.
Since I was studying abroad, and my field of study was very specific, there are only a few areas you can go where you could get work for it. The animation hubs in North America were San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York and Toronto. Since I was already in Toronto, and since it would easily be the cheapest and quickest way to break into the industry, I decided to look into becoming a Permanent Resident. From what I found out through teachers and working professionals, the studios have no incentive to hire an immigrant outside of Canada, especially in a competitive field like this one. The government basically gives the animation companies either a tax break or a bonus for hiring residents/citizens over an immigrant, I guess to help stimulate the economy or something. So if I want to be on equal plain like everyone else, I needed to get Permanent Resident status.
Ok, no problem I thought. I'll just apply for a work permit, graduate the school then apply for whatever's the next step. Simple right?
Well not quite. Since I was studying at a private institution that wasn't a recognized government institution, I wasn't allowed to apply for a student work permit at all. I tried everything to secure a regular work permit, but to do that you need to already be hired by a company in Canada who's willing to go through a lot of red tape with the government to prove why they'd hire you over a citizen. So it's not working.
After researching more, I found out that you need to have worked a full year in Canada in order to apply for a Permanent Resident card, among other requirements. The other things I did just fine on, but the lack of work experience flat-out killed my chances of making enough points to qualify. What’s worse was that the only way to get those work hours in was with something called a Post-Graduate Work Permit, and you could only get that through a government-accredited program.
So I basically found out that there was no way for me to work/live in Canada through this private school I was studying at. In order to make getting a PR card a possibility, I’d need to transfer to another, government-recognized school, and study there for no less than two years before I could even apply for a Post-Grad work permit. What’s worse is that, because of the private institution status of my last school, those credits would not transfer at all, so if I were to study animation again I’d have to put in another 3 years.
So as you can tell, this was quite the shock for me. I was originally going to pursue this two-year illustration program in lieu of Animation (I would have to pay for one of the years myself), and use that to get my PR status, but then another fact came up that made it even more complicated! When you graduate and obtain a Post-Grad permit, only certain job types would count towards the hours I’d need in order to successfully apply for a Permanent Resident Card. So working at a starbucks, busting tables, or doing a regular retail job wouldn’t qualify; it would need to be a specialized job, and probably a skill I’d pick up from college. Since the only work you can get as an illustrator is mainly freelance, it wouldn’t net me those hours I’d need. Also, your Post-Grad permit is only as long as your study time, so I’d only get two years to put in one year of full-time work. Oi.
I pretty much decided to pick a more marketable profession after that, and after careful consideration decided to shoot for web design. It’s very in demand in Toronto, it pays well and the subject material interests me. The college program is also two-years, so it’s a perfect fit to boot. The buddy I was going to attend Full Sail with does that for a living, and gets paid handsomely for it ($50 and hour). He told me he’d be willing to teach me from the ground up once I come home.
So even though I was sad to leave animation behind, I knew that this was the best option for me given my circumstances.
Now here’s my dilemha:
I’ve been studying in Canada for almost 3 school years now, and since I studied at this private school I have nothing to show for it on paper. I learned a hell of a lot drawing-wise so it was worth the money, but I don’t have a degree, any transferrable credits and it’s a field I am no longer studying. I have one more year of support from my folks and then I have to pay the bills, which I am happy to do.
I did the math, and after adding in the international tuition fees, cost of housing and food, it would cost around $20,000 a year. My immigration consultant told me that those two years of study have to be consistent in order to apply for a Post-Grad work permit (i.e. no semester off so I can save up cash), so I will need to go home, find any job and save up the bulk of twenty grand before leaving for school again. I’ll be able to work while studying this time thankfully, so it should be smooth sailing to get the rest of the money. It’s a lot of hoops I have to jump through, but if something I’d love to do if it allows me to work and live in Toronto with a profession I like.
Now my Dad doesn’t see the appeal. He thinks I’m gonna find another hang-up I can’t get past like the last few times. I told him that all of those problems would be resolved because I would be studying at a government institution; everything from being able to legally work to getting a degree to applying for a PR card would be a pretty seamless transition now that I’m doing it correctly. He’s still not convinced, and thinks I could do the same thing back home in the middle of bumfuck Texas.
I keep telling him that, like animation, it’s where you live that makes the difference in landing a job. I know for a fact that web design is huge in Toronto, and there are a lot of studio opportunities up here and internships you can get through the school and through networking connections in a city. As far as I know the only opportunities in Texas are in Austin, and it’s just as expensive to live/study (maybe more so) down there than it is up here.
He has a real difficult time looking through this whole immigration thing, and thinks I should just wash my hands of it entirely, give up on the matter and study down in Texas instead.
Now if I study in the states, I’ll lose my opportunity to live in Canada for good. As a bachelor status with no family ties or marriage planned, this is my only way to secure Residency. It requires no less than two years of study in order to get the post-grad work permit, and then you use that to rack up the hours to fulfill the PR requirements to apply. If I study for a year in Toronto and a year in Texas I won’t be able to do this at all, so it’s extremely important to do it all in Canada. However, he’s the one holding the pocketbook strings, and it’ll take a long time to save up another $20,000 on top of the first one, so I need his support badly.
I’ve lived up here for almost three years now. This is where I grew up the most as an individual, I have sturdy friendships up here, connections to get me where I need to be, many career opportunities and it’s a city that I love living in. If I go home permanently I’m going to have to start all over again, in a place that I’m just sick of living in with no real friends, connections and limited opportunity. Pretty soon I’d force myself to move out, and then things like car payments, insurance, rent, taxes and other bills would start pouring in.
I will get trapped down there, with no way out. I really do not want this.
So I guess I could use some advice on this whole situation cause it’s pretty fucked up to be frank. What should I do about this scenario? How could I make it so I don’t get swamped in Texas till it’s too late to leave?
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If you aren't relying on your dad for financial support, his opinion doesn't really matter.
If you are still reliant on the Bank of Dad to pay the bills, look at it from his perspective. From the above, it looks like you spent a pretty good chunk of money going to not-college and you want to borrow even more of his money to go to a more expensive college out of the country. Yeah, parents just don't understand and all that, but you've hit a few roadblocks already because you didn't get the info you needed before diving in headfirst.
The deal was for four years of support. I went to school for two years full time, then part time for the third. I only have one more year of help, and then i'm on my own. If it wasn't for the international fees i'd probably pay for it all to be honest, but that extra $10k fee really smarts, and I could use all the help I could get. Plus studying in Canada was way, way cheaper than studying in the states, so it was a good call to do that.
I'd like to have an established career before i'm in my late 20's, but my dad wants me to have one now while i'm 22. It'll be hard to get one in my field down here and much easier up there, but if I front for all the expenses i'll be 28 or 30 before I can even start living my own life.
Your dad sounds like he doesn't want you to go into debt for school, without realizing what you actually are going to do. He sees $$$ and doesn't see what you're getting out of it.
Is your dad college educated, or is he in a profession where he was able to advance without college?
Look, I know people who, when they hit 30, decided to quit everything and go to law school. They have over $150000 in debt. And in Baltimore there's lots of students who go to MICA, the local private art school, and while they get a good art-based education, they also leave with over $100000 in debt. That's, what, 6 to 8 times more than your current debt load?
Toronto, school, better paying job. It's your life, and while you can value your dad's opinion, you should point out to him that by staying in Canada you are following the spirit of his thinking (low debt) if not exactly the word.
Hell, we have the Telecom Corridor here, home to thousands of high tech companies. Lots of game development companies are here, the Dallas Gaming Mafia.
I think you might be getting too caught up with staying in Canada to realize that you don't need to be in a bustling cultural hive to find work as a designer.
I also told him that with an art degree, the degree doesn't matter at all, it's what you learned. I had a lot of art fundamentals pounded into me up there so it was worth the struggle, but since I have no paperwork for it he thinks it was a waste of time.
EDIT: I also want to stick it out in Canda cause i've lived up here for so long already. I'm finally starting to get comfortable up here, and i'd basically have to start all over again when it comes to meeting people and bridging connections. Without the aid of a school or a cityscape to work with it will be very difficult to do all that once more, and i'm so exhausted already from having to pull the same thing twice already.
If not, then the way I see it you only have two options:
1. Find a way to convince him.
2. Find another source of funding. Get some student loans; if they are not available for you, then get a regular bank loan. Check with your university what kind of financial arrangements you can make - they might have plans in place to defer payment of tuition costs, or wave (part of) tuition for the best academic students.
I agree with your decision not to go back to Texas. If you do, you'll get stuck there, and it'll be very hard for you to get back to your studies. I don't mean it as a personal thing - it's advice that I give to all students, and that holds true for all students. Once you get used to working 9-to-5, earning money, and paying for expensive stuff like cars and housing, it's very difficult to drop everything and get back to the student lifestyle.
Student loans are available for residents and Canadian citizens only. The school does not offer a student loan program, and in most cases student loan programs in the states only apply to american colleges as well. To even apply for a student loan on my own, I would need to have lived at least a year on my own completely self-sufficient, with not parental support at all. Normally most students sign loans through parents, but if your family makes too much money they do not qualify at all, which is the case here.
So student loans are pretty much out of the question.
A bank loan I am unsure about, but I will ask my mom about this because she worked at Bank of America for a number of years.
If I can get support from my dad for this final year, all I need to do is save up the bulk of twenty grand before attending, something that isn't too hard with a year's worth of time and a minimum wage job. I would be living at home so all my income would go straight into the bank. It might be a challenge given this day's economy, but it's far from impossible.
Start here: https://fafsa.ed.gov/FOTWWebApp/FSLookupServlet (the search currently seems to down for maintenance, try later!) or give FAFSA a call and they can help sort you out.
edit- here's a list of Canadian institutions and their Federal School Code: http://www.savingforcollege.com/eligible_institutions/index.php?mode=search&order_by=school&state=Canada&year=2007-2008
Unless minimum wage in texas is $15 an hour and you plan on working full time for an entire year, it is mathematically impossible (assuming you don't already have several thousands of dollars saved up).
It really sounds like you're just throwing good money after bad. I don't know how it works in Canada, but in the US you need an employer to sponsor an immigrant for a work permit. This will put you at a distinct disadvantage and make it difficult to get your foot in the door.
Your college friends may be awesome, but it isn't all that wise to keep throwing good money after bad so you can keep a social circle that you've only had for approximately two years. You'd probably be much better served if you could convince your dad to sponsor you for an associates degree in Texas as a backup while you work on your portfolio.
Yes, this is true. Once you factor in things like taxes, pay-rate and general job availability, it would be challenging to secure twenty grand. My apologies
I will say that it would be ideal to save up that much money before even starting, not required. Having $20,000 before I started studies would mean I would never have to work at all for those two years. Even if I save up half that money I could make it work no problem, so it was more of a pipe dream to mention the amount I suppose.
This is incorrect. If you are at a government-accredited school you can easily apply for a student work visa, either an on or off campus one, allowing you to work in Canada just like anyone else. You are talking about the requirements for applying for a regular work permit, something that takes a lot of time, money and red tape for an employer to feed through. Having the student work permit cuts out all of that bullshit, so it wouldn't even be an issue.
Upon graduation you are allowed 90 days to apply for a post-grad work permit, allowing you to work and count hours towards a PR card.
This is more of a personal thing, but put yourself in my shoes; you're entire college experience was invested in a city 1600 miles away from every living relative and friend you had. You worked your ass off securing connections, friendships and people skills because you didn't study at a traditional university with an able body of 3000 students strong to meet. We're talking busting your ass and getting rejected on a daily basis in order to secure contacts, friends, connections, whatever.
And then when you finally start carving a niche for yourself, you're forced to come home permanently and start all over again. Only this time, you don't have the luxury of a city scene, public transportation and bustling college experience at your call. Have you tried meeting new people outside of a city environment? It's bloody impossible. People do not like being out of their comfort zone, and 90% of people in normal living areas meet their contacts through school or other friends.
You're given nothing to work with here. If it costs a similar amount and you already have established connections branching up north, why wouldn't you pick Toronto over Texas? It would cut out a ton of extra legwork, both socially and professionally.
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
1. Get family support monies.
2. Get a job (or jobs).
3. Save up money while on family support.
4. Use saved money to finance second year.
5. Continue working during the second year in order to support yourself.
Now, you might end up working full time in addition to going to school full time, but lots of people do that (myself included for awhile) and get by just fine. Sure, it makes for some long, long weeks and you sometimes find yourself with a complete lack of free time, but it should be doable if you really buckle down and grind it out.
Edit to add:
Could you ask your dad for a loan for another year? Not like: "Hey dad, float me 20g's so I can finish school." But more like: "Hey dad, I'd like to continue my schooling here in Canada, but to do so I'd need a loan. Could you loan me the money and we draw up a contract for the terms of repayment?"
I was thinking of saving up as much as I could before starting school, then working while attending the first year under family support to add to that amount. If I can save up between $12,000 and $13,000, that would cover my entire yearly tuition. I would only have to worry about rent, food and transportation, which is something I could easily start saving up for my first and second years at school.
I don't think asking my dad for a loan would work well. My little sister is also going to college so he's pretty strung up financially. I'd be lucky to just get one year out of him to be honest.