Edit: sorry maybe i should be more specific as to what i need help with but honestly i dont know i was seriously just hoping someone could like make a list of all the things i could do to improve my game so that when i'm practicing i can work on each thing individually till i get it all together. Also i use the arrows on my keyboard to move around, though i sometimes remember to use my hotkeys. Is this an unbelievably bad habit to get into and is using the mouse on the side of the screen approach better or is middle clicking and dragging better
Using the arrow keys moves your hands away from critical hotkeys. Ideally you want to be using hotkeys to move your vision around or clicking on the mini map, barring that or for scanning short distances I would recommend using mouse-edge panning.
You've got a really really good economy habit already, looks like you never stop producing probes which is fantastic, and you're also expanding. Economy alone will get you pretty far. You also double forge and (after a short delay) constantly pump out upgrades, which is excellent.
A lot of basic things you can improve on:
Hotkeys. You don't hotkey almost anything until mid-late game. As soon as the game starts, put your nexus on a hotkey. Put your production buildings on a hotkey as soon as you make them.
You were already going back your nexus to make probes, make sure you're using that chrono boost. You use it 4-6 times the whole game, otherwise your nexus are sitting at almost full energy the entire time. Any time you go back to make probes try to CB. What you CB doesn't matter as long as you're using it at this level.
You're floating a ton of money the entire game and there are long periods where your production facilities sit unused. Make sure you hotkey early and make a habit of looking at your money. Have you got a lot of money? Build units. At this league it almost doesn't matter what, just make sure you're spending your resources. At bronze/silver just spending all your money building units will mean you often overwhelm your opponent.
Gateway spamming is good when you're floating that much money, you just did it a bit late into the game. Again, make a habit of looking at your money and supply often, is it high? Make units. Can't make more units? Make more production facilities/tech. You're doing a lot of this already, it's just a bit slow to come out.
You make an observer early but never hotkey it and don't scout your opponent after that initial probe. You then slowly creep it towards his base but never actually scout it to see what he's doing. Scout with it, find out what he's building. If you knew he had/was making void rays you could've made more stalkers and just won with your first push.
Early on he had almost no army while you had a decent amount of units (at around 10m when you start on the gold rocks) and could've made a very threatening/game ending push on his front door. Aggression pays off in spades. Once you have a few units, unless you're dealing with some cheese/harass yourself, always poke into your opponent to see if you can possibly win the game early. It could've saved you another 14 or so game minutes. And if you see something you can't beat, don't suicide your army, just retreat, and at least now you've seen what his army looks like and/or what he's producing.
It looks like you're building a lot of good habits (economy, probe production, upgrades, expanding) you just need to focus a bit more on spending your income and being aggressive.
JAEF on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
I was always having the bunkerless marines getting 2 shotted by stalkers. hell the toss can just move in, pick off an entire bunker, retreat without any hull damage and wait until he has critical mass and an ob, then blink up into your main and run about. he can blink out and do it again while expanding. The key for the toss is just picking off as many marines as he can while minimizing hit point damage.
it's really really hard to deal with when you do that build.
You really should have marauders and stim by the time he has blink stalkers, much less blink stalkers AND an observer.
You're right about marines getting picked off, which is why I always had trouble with one bunker (half my marines were easy targets). Two bunkers I find is enough to deal with it. What I find is important is to keep the marines that aren't in bunkers, back behind the bunkers. Force the protoss to engage the bunkers first and start taking damage. If he commits, run SCVs out to repair and run the rest of the marines forward. If you are careless and leave extra marines standing out in front of the bunkers, then yeah he can just come in and start picking them off.
as with any FE economic build that early harassment can just undermine the worker pump and therefore the entire build.
In my experience blink and the critical mass of stalkers could be reached before I was prepared to go into a full on marauder pump I guess. You need time to pump workers off of your 2 OC's and that's hard when he's constantly making you pull.
I'm just saying the build wasn't stable enough for me to keep using it. I'd like to hear duld's opinion
Need a little help in my TvP. Specifically how do you deal with one gate robo (or two gate robo) into fast colossi? It's this mid game push with the first two colossi that kills me. I can deal with late game TvP...but with colossi this early I don't know how I'm supposed to have enough units out in time to deal with it.
Any help on dealing with this protoss build? (I'd really like any advice you might have on this, meeks).
-heading to bed so I won't see anything til morning, but I'd appreciate any feedback.
As I was mentioning online, just play standard, and do you best to flank his army and snipe the Collossi. It really comes down to micro, there isn't much you can do from a composition perspective.
Okay, thanks. Just wanted to make sure I didn't just macro poorly or something. I guess I could always try to pressure early before the colossi come out...just gotta watch out for FF.
Man that opening you did is so old school. We used it in beta but found that early and continual stalker harass wrecks it. It's too reliant on having good marine control. also that was extremely ballsy to not wall off. Wall off makes sure that you wont have problems with stalkers until he gets an ob for sight.
Anyway, I'm not sure when it became apparent to you that he was going really early collosi, but you should have seen an early support bay or the scouted and saw the first one out. You built medivacs out of your reactor starport so i'm assuming you were caught off guard. The additional survivability given by 2 medivacs is quite irrelevant when he has 3 collosi out and its early-mid game. You should have got vikings then switched to medvacs later. If you had a bit of infantry and teched to dual starport sooner you cuold have countered really hard with vikings. seriously he only had 1 stalker and sentrys have such short range.
otherwise you could have baited his force fields or something, I guess. You got screwed by positioning and then tried to retreat and he ff'd of course.
also what I do when I know I wont have enough time to build enough vikings by the time his 2-3 collosi push comes is build bunkers are my natural and repair them to buy time. You should have enough infantry that he is only able to engage with the collosi, so all he can do is sit back and snipe the bunkers and that buys you a lot of time.
I mostly agree with you..but a few things.
First, you seem concerned about early stalker harass...but in some of your later posts you said the problem is b/c he can early poke with a stalker after you only have 1-2 marines and are building the tech lab. This is the opposite of what I do...I no gas expand so I'm pumping marines out of three rax in the beginning. So I have plenty of marines to scare off one stalker. Also, two bunkers at the front help hold off any really fast 4 gates.
Here are the two deadliest moves to deal with IMO...stopping a protoss who runs over the initial zealot and stalker. This almost never happens...and if I did start running into it I would just build a bunker at the front before the expansion. The second is a delayed 4 gate that hits before stim can finish. He'll have a lot of units and I won't have stim b/c it was delayed. That said...I've had a lot of success holding off 4 gates with this build just fine.
Oh..I forgot...the voidray zealot warp in build absolutely wrecks me when I go this build...but it always catches me by surprise so I might be able to handle it if I were to see it coming.
As far as dealing with the colossi. You are correct that the colossi surprised me. However, even if I built two vikings instead of medivacs it wouldn't have changed anything. Two vikings take too long to deal with two colossi. And if he waited longer, my macro would have kicked in and I would have had time to harrass him with drops, etc.
It's just these really early colossi pushes that are wrecking me. I'd forgotten how strong early colossi are (b/c I've almost entirely worked them out of my play).
MEEKS...you said that your only option is too outmicro the colossi when going against this build...so I assume trying to rush to vikings would be a bad idea? (I'm assuming not enough time to build up numbers, ground force will be too small, etc).
I have to admit, I haven't actually looked at the replay yet, so I don't know when he pushes out with the Collossi. You could try rushing for Vikings if you scout it, but it will leave your ground force quite small and doesn't feel safe to me.
Also, apparently you did a no gas expand? I don't like that at all. If you want a quick expansion, go with the 1rax FE. It is my goto build in TvP these days; extremely macro oriented and versatile (if micro'd well it should be able to hold any all-in).
Edit: sorry maybe i should be more specific as to what i need help with but honestly i dont know i was seriously just hoping someone could like make a list of all the things i could do to improve my game so that when i'm practicing i can work on each thing individually till i get it all together. Also i use the arrows on my keyboard to move around, though i sometimes remember to use my hotkeys. Is this an unbelievably bad habit to get into and is using the mouse on the side of the screen approach better or is middle clicking and dragging better
Using the arrow keys moves your hands away from critical hotkeys. Ideally you want to be using hotkeys to move your vision around or clicking on the mini map, barring that or for scanning short distances I would recommend using mouse-edge panning.
You've got a really really good economy habit already, looks like you never stop producing probes which is fantastic, and you're also expanding. Economy alone will get you pretty far. You also double forge and (after a short delay) constantly pump out upgrades, which is excellent.
A lot of basic things you can improve on:
Hotkeys. You don't hotkey almost anything until mid-late game. As soon as the game starts, put your nexus on a hotkey. Put your production buildings on a hotkey as soon as you make them.
You were already going back your nexus to make probes, make sure you're using that chrono boost. You use it 4-6 times the whole game, otherwise your nexus are sitting at almost full energy the entire time. Any time you go back to make probes try to CB. What you CB doesn't matter as long as you're using it at this level.
You're floating a ton of money the entire game and there are long periods where your production facilities sit unused. Make sure you hotkey early and make a habit of looking at your money. Have you got a lot of money? Build units. At this league it almost doesn't matter what, just make sure you're spending your resources. At bronze/silver just spending all your money building units will mean you often overwhelm your opponent.
Gateway spamming is good when you're floating that much money, you just did it a bit late into the game. Again, make a habit of looking at your money and supply often, is it high? Make units. Can't make more units? Make more production facilities/tech. You're doing a lot of this already, it's just a bit slow to come out.
You make an observer early but never hotkey it and don't scout your opponent after that initial probe. You then slowly creep it towards his base but never actually scout it to see what he's doing. Scout with it, find out what he's building. If you knew he had/was making void rays you could've made more stalkers and just won with your first push.
Early on he had almost no army while you had a decent amount of units (at around 10m when you start on the gold rocks) and could've made a very threatening/game ending push on his front door. Aggression pays off in spades. Once you have a few units, unless you're dealing with some cheese/harass yourself, always poke into your opponent to see if you can possibly win the game early. It could've saved you another 14 or so game minutes. And if you see something you can't beat, don't suicide your army, just retreat, and at least now you've seen what his army looks like and/or what he's producing.
It looks like you're building a lot of good habits (economy, probe production, upgrades, expanding) you just need to focus a bit more on spending your income and being aggressive.
My aggressiveness is something i've noticed before i just never really know when to pull the trigger and because of that i just end up using pure macro to win me games because i've learned in bronze league if you dont beat your opponent the first time just throw wave after wave at him until he ends up waving the white flag.
thanks for taking the time to go over my replay i really appreciate it.
I have to admit, I haven't actually looked at the replay yet, so I don't know when he pushes out with the Collossi. You could try rushing for Vikings if you scout it, but it will leave your ground force quite small and doesn't feel safe to me.
Also, apparently you did a no gas expand? I don't like that at all. If you want a quick expansion, go with the 1rax FE. It is my goto build in TvP these days; extremely macro oriented and versatile (if micro'd well it should be able to hold any all-in).
Yeah it was a command center on like 20 or 21 then gas right after. It's really dangerous and I abandoned that build a long time ago back in beta. way too greedy man.
iowa on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
as with any FE economic build that early harassment can just undermine the worker pump and therefore the entire build.
In my experience blink and the critical mass of stalkers could be reached before I was prepared to go into a full on marauder pump I guess. You need time to pump workers off of your 2 OC's and that's hard when he's constantly making you pull.
I'm just saying the build wasn't stable enough for me to keep using it. I'd like to hear duld's opinion
I would suggest maybe that you didn't pay as close attention to my build. Your just seeing that I one rax FE and that's it. Perhaps you should pay more attention to when I get my gas and when I get my tech labs. My first marauders are out in time for a normal four gate. I'm going to have a bunch of marauders and stim by the time blink stalkers come in. I suggest you watch how I one rax FE rather than assume I'm doing it exactly as you do it.
My aggressiveness is something i've noticed before i just never really know when to pull the trigger and because of that i just end up using pure macro to win me games because i've learned in bronze league if you dont beat your opponent the first time just throw wave after wave at him until he ends up waving the white flag.
thanks for taking the time to go over my replay i really appreciate it.
A lot of times early aggression isn't even about pulling the trigger, it's about forcing your opponent to think defensively and giving you an opportunity to see what he's building without revealing too much about yourself. Once you get your first stalker, if you're facing a T/P and know where their base is, go poke at their front door. See what they've got. If you need to run away they're not going to be able to catch you, and you've essentially lost nothing. At worst you lose a stalker, and at best you see that "Hey, they don't have anything.. I could just take what I have and rally more units to his door and win." Just make sure you don't get "lost in the micro" while doing this and lose focus on your macro. It's something to practice, at least.
TT1 just wrecked some nerd with that kiwikaki mothership stalker base snipe build. holy shit thats strong. not sure how it works vs terran but your army can basically be two places at once. if he counters you just recall, god damn.
Need a little help in my TvP. Specifically how do you deal with one gate robo (or two gate robo) into fast colossi? It's this mid game push with the first two colossi that kills me. I can deal with late game TvP...but with colossi this early I don't know how I'm supposed to have enough units out in time to deal with it.
Any help on dealing with this protoss build? (I'd really like any advice you might have on this, meeks).
-heading to bed so I won't see anything til morning, but I'd appreciate any feedback.
As I was mentioning online, just play standard, and do you best to flank his army and snipe the Collossi. It really comes down to micro, there isn't much you can do from a composition perspective.
Okay, thanks. Just wanted to make sure I didn't just macro poorly or something. I guess I could always try to pressure early before the colossi come out...just gotta watch out for FF.
Man that opening you did is so old school. We used it in beta but found that early and continual stalker harass wrecks it. It's too reliant on having good marine control. also that was extremely ballsy to not wall off. Wall off makes sure that you wont have problems with stalkers until he gets an ob for sight.
Anyway, I'm not sure when it became apparent to you that he was going really early collosi, but you should have seen an early support bay or the scouted and saw the first one out. You built medivacs out of your reactor starport so i'm assuming you were caught off guard. The additional survivability given by 2 medivacs is quite irrelevant when he has 3 collosi out and its early-mid game. You should have got vikings then switched to medvacs later. If you had a bit of infantry and teched to dual starport sooner you cuold have countered really hard with vikings. seriously he only had 1 stalker and sentrys have such short range.
otherwise you could have baited his force fields or something, I guess. You got screwed by positioning and then tried to retreat and he ff'd of course.
also what I do when I know I wont have enough time to build enough vikings by the time his 2-3 collosi push comes is build bunkers are my natural and repair them to buy time. You should have enough infantry that he is only able to engage with the collosi, so all he can do is sit back and snipe the bunkers and that buys you a lot of time.
I mostly agree with you..but a few things.
First, you seem concerned about early stalker harass...but in some of your later posts you said the problem is b/c he can early poke with a stalker after you only have 1-2 marines and are building the tech lab. This is the opposite of what I do...I no gas expand so I'm pumping marines out of three rax in the beginning. So I have plenty of marines to scare off one stalker. Also, two bunkers at the front help hold off any really fast 4 gates.
Here are the two deadliest moves to deal with IMO...stopping a protoss who runs over the initial zealot and stalker. This almost never happens...and if I did start running into it I would just build a bunker at the front before the expansion. The second is a delayed 4 gate that hits before stim can finish. He'll have a lot of units and I won't have stim b/c it was delayed. That said...I've had a lot of success holding off 4 gates with this build just fine.
Oh..I forgot...the voidray zealot warp in build absolutely wrecks me when I go this build...but it always catches me by surprise so I might be able to handle it if I were to see it coming.
As far as dealing with the colossi. You are correct that the colossi surprised me. However, even if I built two vikings instead of medivacs it wouldn't have changed anything. Two vikings take too long to deal with two colossi. And if he waited longer, my macro would have kicked in and I would have had time to harrass him with drops, etc.
It's just these really early colossi pushes that are wrecking me. I'd forgotten how strong early colossi are (b/c I've almost entirely worked them out of my play).
MEEKS...you said that your only option is too outmicro the colossi when going against this build...so I assume trying to rush to vikings would be a bad idea? (I'm assuming not enough time to build up numbers, ground force will be too small, etc).
I have to admit, I haven't actually looked at the replay yet, so I don't know when he pushes out with the Collossi. You could try rushing for Vikings if you scout it, but it will leave your ground force quite small and doesn't feel safe to me.
Also, apparently you did a no gas expand? I don't like that at all. If you want a quick expansion, go with the 1rax FE. It is my goto build in TvP these days; extremely macro oriented and versatile (if micro'd well it should be able to hold any all-in).
If you have time could you give it a look? Just so you can see the exact timing on the colossi and how much I had, etc. I'd just like to know if I need to tighten up my build order...in order to have more units out in time maybe. B/c even with micro I don't know how I'm supposed to stop two colossi with the amount of bio that I had at that point.
As far as no gas expand goes...I find that I can deal just fine with typical four gates. But maybe it somehow contributes to slowing down my marauder numbers and that is why I die to colossi in the mid game? I'm hoping you might have some input on that.
I just rewatched the replay man it looked like 20 or 21 command center at the nat and then gas right after on 22.
edit like I said I used to do ^ exactly that and it wasn't stable enough back when I was mid diamond before there was a master's league.
I'm sorry then. You may be right...all I can speak is from my own experience and generally the protoss I play either aren't aggressive early enough to punish it or don't four gate hard enough so I hold it. If I start getting rolled by early pressure a lot then I'll be changing it up but until then...if I can't get away with being greedy then why the hell not?
Maratastik on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
TT1 just wrecked some nerd with that kiwikaki mothership stalker base snipe build. holy shit thats strong. not sure how it works vs terran but your army can basically be two places at once. if he counters you just recall, god damn.
This is why I've been advocating that Toss should just get a mothership whenever they can lategame. You don't need to have a specific purpose for it. Just the amount of flexibility and mobility alone is well worth having it. It's kinda funny. Most people disregard mothership play b/c of it's immobility...but it's the one single thing that can make the protoss army the most mobile army in the game.
Well, the build isn't going to help you versus the early collosi push like that because it comes before your macro machine kicks in. something like a flexible 1/1/1 build would let you get a reactor starport and a normal starport which would let you get enough vikings out in time.
iowa on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
Well, the build isn't going to help you versus the early collosi push like that because it comes before your macro machine kicks in. something like a flexible 1/1/1 build would let you get a reactor starport and a normal starport which would let you get enough vikings out in time.
See that's precisely what I'm wondering. Whether or not expanding like that slows down what I need to deal with colossi. But I'm not fond of the 1/1/1 build. It's a great change of pace...but I like to macro hard so I'm interested in knowing if you can hold an early colossi push like that with a 1 rax FE. What I'm thinking is that skipping the gas before expanding slows down my initial marauder numbers. So even though I get three rax up quickly, my marine count is too high and my marauder count is too low to deal with early colossi like that. If I get gas and a tech lab before expanding though...maybe my marauder count would be higher at that point.
TT1 just wrecked some nerd with that kiwikaki mothership stalker base snipe build. holy shit thats strong. not sure how it works vs terran but your army can basically be two places at once. if he counters you just recall, god damn.
This is why I've been advocating that Toss should just get a mothership whenever they can lategame. You don't need to have a specific purpose for it. Just the amount of flexibility and mobility alone is well worth having it. It's kinda funny. Most people disregard mothership play b/c of it's immobility...but it's the one single thing that can make the protoss army the most mobile army in the game.
Aside from a proxy pylon or phase prism. ^_^
But yes, motherships have awesome applicability... so sexy...
I'm going to work on improving my mid/late game nydus worm abuse. Though I'd prefer it not let the world know every time one spawns. -_-'
gah personally I just wouldnt recommend 'more marauders' as your counter to any collosi threats. it can work of course but its too dangerous. Vikings at least provide somewhat of a hedge against void rays as well if he suddenly changes tech and chronos out VRs.
Need a little help in my TvP. Specifically how do you deal with one gate robo (or two gate robo) into fast colossi? It's this mid game push with the first two colossi that kills me. I can deal with late game TvP...but with colossi this early I don't know how I'm supposed to have enough units out in time to deal with it.
Any help on dealing with this protoss build? (I'd really like any advice you might have on this, meeks).
-heading to bed so I won't see anything til morning, but I'd appreciate any feedback.
As I was mentioning online, just play standard, and do you best to flank his army and snipe the Collossi. It really comes down to micro, there isn't much you can do from a composition perspective.
Okay, thanks. Just wanted to make sure I didn't just macro poorly or something. I guess I could always try to pressure early before the colossi come out...just gotta watch out for FF.
Man that opening you did is so old school. We used it in beta but found that early and continual stalker harass wrecks it. It's too reliant on having good marine control. also that was extremely ballsy to not wall off. Wall off makes sure that you wont have problems with stalkers until he gets an ob for sight.
Anyway, I'm not sure when it became apparent to you that he was going really early collosi, but you should have seen an early support bay or the scouted and saw the first one out. You built medivacs out of your reactor starport so i'm assuming you were caught off guard. The additional survivability given by 2 medivacs is quite irrelevant when he has 3 collosi out and its early-mid game. You should have got vikings then switched to medvacs later. If you had a bit of infantry and teched to dual starport sooner you cuold have countered really hard with vikings. seriously he only had 1 stalker and sentrys have such short range.
otherwise you could have baited his force fields or something, I guess. You got screwed by positioning and then tried to retreat and he ff'd of course.
also what I do when I know I wont have enough time to build enough vikings by the time his 2-3 collosi push comes is build bunkers are my natural and repair them to buy time. You should have enough infantry that he is only able to engage with the collosi, so all he can do is sit back and snipe the bunkers and that buys you a lot of time.
I mostly agree with you..but a few things.
First, you seem concerned about early stalker harass...but in some of your later posts you said the problem is b/c he can early poke with a stalker after you only have 1-2 marines and are building the tech lab. This is the opposite of what I do...I no gas expand so I'm pumping marines out of three rax in the beginning. So I have plenty of marines to scare off one stalker. Also, two bunkers at the front help hold off any really fast 4 gates.
Here are the two deadliest moves to deal with IMO...stopping a protoss who runs over the initial zealot and stalker. This almost never happens...and if I did start running into it I would just build a bunker at the front before the expansion. The second is a delayed 4 gate that hits before stim can finish. He'll have a lot of units and I won't have stim b/c it was delayed. That said...I've had a lot of success holding off 4 gates with this build just fine.
Oh..I forgot...the voidray zealot warp in build absolutely wrecks me when I go this build...but it always catches me by surprise so I might be able to handle it if I were to see it coming.
As far as dealing with the colossi. You are correct that the colossi surprised me. However, even if I built two vikings instead of medivacs it wouldn't have changed anything. Two vikings take too long to deal with two colossi. And if he waited longer, my macro would have kicked in and I would have had time to harrass him with drops, etc.
It's just these really early colossi pushes that are wrecking me. I'd forgotten how strong early colossi are (b/c I've almost entirely worked them out of my play).
MEEKS...you said that your only option is too outmicro the colossi when going against this build...so I assume trying to rush to vikings would be a bad idea? (I'm assuming not enough time to build up numbers, ground force will be too small, etc).
I have to admit, I haven't actually looked at the replay yet, so I don't know when he pushes out with the Collossi. You could try rushing for Vikings if you scout it, but it will leave your ground force quite small and doesn't feel safe to me.
Also, apparently you did a no gas expand? I don't like that at all. If you want a quick expansion, go with the 1rax FE. It is my goto build in TvP these days; extremely macro oriented and versatile (if micro'd well it should be able to hold any all-in).
If you have time could you give it a look? Just so you can see the exact timing on the colossi and how much I had, etc. I'd just like to know if I need to tighten up my build order...in order to have more units out in time maybe. B/c even with micro I don't know how I'm supposed to stop two colossi with the amount of bio that I had at that point.
As far as no gas expand goes...I find that I can deal just fine with typical four gates. But maybe it somehow contributes to slowing down my marauder numbers and that is why I die to colossi in the mid game? I'm hoping you might have some input on that.
So, that no gas expand doesn't look safe at all. Any sort of well-executed pressure or all-in should beat it. I can't really say if you need to tighten up your BO because I am not familiar with that build. I'm pretty sure with a 1rax FE I would have had more units when he pushed and a heavier marauder count which is really important against Collossi.
mEEksa on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
lets have some more signups for the CSL on Friday night and the CSL Lite on Saturday night dudes
gah personally I just wouldnt recommend 'more marauders' as your counter to any collosi threats. it can work of course but its too dangerous. Vikings at least provide somewhat of a hedge against void rays as well if he suddenly changes tech and chronos out VRs.
I can't give you advice is what i'm saying
Well I only mean for early colossi like that. Vikings would be needed quickly after that of course. My point is you can't realistically have enough vikings in time unless you were already rushing to starport anyway...like a 1/1/1 build. Since that's not my typical build I need some way to handle the colossi that early...which would be more marauders.
gah personally I just wouldnt recommend 'more marauders' as your counter to any collosi threats. it can work of course but its too dangerous. Vikings at least provide somewhat of a hedge against void rays as well if he suddenly changes tech and chronos out VRs.
I can't give you advice is what i'm saying
Well I only mean for early colossi like that. Vikings would be needed quickly after that of course. My point is you can't realistically have enough vikings in time unless you were already rushing to starport anyway...like a 1/1/1 build. Since that's not my typical build I need some way to handle the colossi that early...which would be more marauders.
like I said before, on top of more marauders you could just build and repair bunkers to buy time for the vikings. he'll just sit there sniping the bunkers for a while.
iowa on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
gah personally I just wouldnt recommend 'more marauders' as your counter to any collosi threats. it can work of course but its too dangerous. Vikings at least provide somewhat of a hedge against void rays as well if he suddenly changes tech and chronos out VRs.
I can't give you advice is what i'm saying
Well I only mean for early colossi like that. Vikings would be needed quickly after that of course. My point is you can't realistically have enough vikings in time unless you were already rushing to starport anyway...like a 1/1/1 build. Since that's not my typical build I need some way to handle the colossi that early...which would be more marauders.
like I said before, on top of more marauders you could just build and repair bunkers to buy time for the vikings. he'll just sit there sniping the bunkers for a while.
Yeah, that's a good idea, I never disagreed with it. Just need to turtle a bit more til you have Vikings up...unless you know he doesn't have colossi out yet.
I don't think bunkers are inherently shitty. I've been playing around with the idea of once the game gets to 3+ bases to split off my side of the map with enough bunkers for most of my army while harassing everywhere with dropships. The bunkers should help if he gets fed up and decides "fuck it I'm gonna counter attack." It sucks when you gotta cough up the cash early game though.
Maratastik on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
it would be more interesting if there was any way the armies could have met where the T won
edit - what I mean is for all the positioning and posturing there was no way T was taking that, ever
Do you mean in terms of the unit composition or sheer numbers?
way late, but both.
there is an amount of colossus that I don't think you can take in a straight up battle as T. let alone that there were also storms by the time the encounter happened.
on a different note, damn Check vs. Alive was pretty awesome. nice long game. check failed on creep spread and some decision making as the game went,f or sure., but I liked alive's play a lot.
TT1 just wrecked some nerd with that kiwikaki mothership stalker base snipe build. holy shit thats strong. not sure how it works vs terran but your army can basically be two places at once. if he counters you just recall, god damn.
I'm hoping someone uses that against TLO playing Z or CatZ or someone, who will then go Infestors + Burrow and simultaneously Fungal the Stalkers and Neural Parasite the Mothership, then Vortex + double Fungal the Protoss's own Probes or something.
His Corkiness on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
TT1 just wrecked some nerd with that kiwikaki mothership stalker base snipe build. holy shit thats strong. not sure how it works vs terran but your army can basically be two places at once. if he counters you just recall, god damn.
I'm hoping someone uses that against TLO playing Z or CatZ or someone, who will then go Infestors + Burrow and simultaneously Fungal the Stalkers and Neural Parasite the Mothership, then Vortex + double Fungal the Protoss's own Probes or something.
The right thing to do is to turn the vortex into a baneling toilet instead of an archon toilet. Think catz almost managed to pull it off in one of the gosucoaching team league games.
Kambing on
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Seguerof the VoidSydney, AustraliaRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
FYI RE CSL: I'll be updating the OP once Simon gives me a condensed version. We're so damn close to the character limit (Dover this is also why I want to rewrite the OP)
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You've got a really really good economy habit already, looks like you never stop producing probes which is fantastic, and you're also expanding. Economy alone will get you pretty far. You also double forge and (after a short delay) constantly pump out upgrades, which is excellent.
A lot of basic things you can improve on:
Hotkeys. You don't hotkey almost anything until mid-late game. As soon as the game starts, put your nexus on a hotkey. Put your production buildings on a hotkey as soon as you make them.- You were already going back your nexus to make probes, make sure you're using that chrono boost. You use it 4-6 times the whole game, otherwise your nexus are sitting at almost full energy the entire time. Any time you go back to make probes try to CB. What you CB doesn't matter as long as you're using it at this level.
- You're floating a ton of money the entire game and there are long periods where your production facilities sit unused. Make sure you hotkey early and make a habit of looking at your money. Have you got a lot of money? Build units. At this league it almost doesn't matter what, just make sure you're spending your resources. At bronze/silver just spending all your money building units will mean you often overwhelm your opponent.
- Gateway spamming is good when you're floating that much money, you just did it a bit late into the game. Again, make a habit of looking at your money and supply often, is it high? Make units. Can't make more units? Make more production facilities/tech. You're doing a lot of this already, it's just a bit slow to come out.
- You make an observer early but never hotkey it and don't scout your opponent after that initial probe. You then slowly creep it towards his base but never actually scout it to see what he's doing. Scout with it, find out what he's building. If you knew he had/was making void rays you could've made more stalkers and just won with your first push.
- Early on he had almost no army while you had a decent amount of units (at around 10m when you start on the gold rocks) and could've made a very threatening/game ending push on his front door. Aggression pays off in spades. Once you have a few units, unless you're dealing with some cheese/harass yourself, always poke into your opponent to see if you can possibly win the game early. It could've saved you another 14 or so game minutes. And if you see something you can't beat, don't suicide your army, just retreat, and at least now you've seen what his army looks like and/or what he's producing.
It looks like you're building a lot of good habits (economy, probe production, upgrades, expanding) you just need to focus a bit more on spending your income and being aggressive.
You really should have marauders and stim by the time he has blink stalkers, much less blink stalkers AND an observer.
You're right about marines getting picked off, which is why I always had trouble with one bunker (half my marines were easy targets). Two bunkers I find is enough to deal with it. What I find is important is to keep the marines that aren't in bunkers, back behind the bunkers. Force the protoss to engage the bunkers first and start taking damage. If he commits, run SCVs out to repair and run the rest of the marines forward. If you are careless and leave extra marines standing out in front of the bunkers, then yeah he can just come in and start picking them off.
In my experience blink and the critical mass of stalkers could be reached before I was prepared to go into a full on marauder pump I guess. You need time to pump workers off of your 2 OC's and that's hard when he's constantly making you pull.
I'm just saying the build wasn't stable enough for me to keep using it. I'd like to hear duld's opinion
I have to admit, I haven't actually looked at the replay yet, so I don't know when he pushes out with the Collossi. You could try rushing for Vikings if you scout it, but it will leave your ground force quite small and doesn't feel safe to me.
Also, apparently you did a no gas expand? I don't like that at all. If you want a quick expansion, go with the 1rax FE. It is my goto build in TvP these days; extremely macro oriented and versatile (if micro'd well it should be able to hold any all-in).
My aggressiveness is something i've noticed before i just never really know when to pull the trigger and because of that i just end up using pure macro to win me games because i've learned in bronze league if you dont beat your opponent the first time just throw wave after wave at him until he ends up waving the white flag.
thanks for taking the time to go over my replay i really appreciate it.
Yeah it was a command center on like 20 or 21 then gas right after. It's really dangerous and I abandoned that build a long time ago back in beta. way too greedy man.
I would suggest maybe that you didn't pay as close attention to my build. Your just seeing that I one rax FE and that's it. Perhaps you should pay more attention to when I get my gas and when I get my tech labs. My first marauders are out in time for a normal four gate. I'm going to have a bunch of marauders and stim by the time blink stalkers come in. I suggest you watch how I one rax FE rather than assume I'm doing it exactly as you do it.
edit like I said I used to do ^ exactly that and it wasn't stable enough back when I was mid diamond before there was a master's league.
If you have time could you give it a look? Just so you can see the exact timing on the colossi and how much I had, etc. I'd just like to know if I need to tighten up my build order...in order to have more units out in time maybe. B/c even with micro I don't know how I'm supposed to stop two colossi with the amount of bio that I had at that point.
As far as no gas expand goes...I find that I can deal just fine with typical four gates. But maybe it somehow contributes to slowing down my marauder numbers and that is why I die to colossi in the mid game? I'm hoping you might have some input on that.
I'm sorry then. You may be right...all I can speak is from my own experience and generally the protoss I play either aren't aggressive early enough to punish it or don't four gate hard enough so I hold it. If I start getting rolled by early pressure a lot then I'll be changing it up but until then...if I can't get away with being greedy then why the hell not?
This is why I've been advocating that Toss should just get a mothership whenever they can lategame. You don't need to have a specific purpose for it. Just the amount of flexibility and mobility alone is well worth having it. It's kinda funny. Most people disregard mothership play b/c of it's immobility...but it's the one single thing that can make the protoss army the most mobile army in the game.
See that's precisely what I'm wondering. Whether or not expanding like that slows down what I need to deal with colossi. But I'm not fond of the 1/1/1 build. It's a great change of pace...but I like to macro hard so I'm interested in knowing if you can hold an early colossi push like that with a 1 rax FE. What I'm thinking is that skipping the gas before expanding slows down my initial marauder numbers. So even though I get three rax up quickly, my marine count is too high and my marauder count is too low to deal with early colossi like that. If I get gas and a tech lab before expanding though...maybe my marauder count would be higher at that point.
Aside from a proxy pylon or phase prism. ^_^
But yes, motherships have awesome applicability... so sexy...
I'm going to work on improving my mid/late game nydus worm abuse. Though I'd prefer it not let the world know every time one spawns. -_-'
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I can't give you advice is what i'm saying
-signed, diamond league player
So, that no gas expand doesn't look safe at all. Any sort of well-executed pressure or all-in should beat it. I can't really say if you need to tighten up your BO because I am not familiar with that build. I'm pretty sure with a 1rax FE I would have had more units when he pushed and a heavier marauder count which is really important against Collossi.
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iowa stop being bad it's T. I KNOW U KNOW.
I will train for this!
what the fuck Tester
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Well I only mean for early colossi like that. Vikings would be needed quickly after that of course. My point is you can't realistically have enough vikings in time unless you were already rushing to starport anyway...like a 1/1/1 build. Since that's not my typical build I need some way to handle the colossi that early...which would be more marauders.
like I said before, on top of more marauders you could just build and repair bunkers to buy time for the vikings. he'll just sit there sniping the bunkers for a while.
Yeah, that's a good idea, I never disagreed with it. Just need to turtle a bit more til you have Vikings up...unless you know he doesn't have colossi out yet.
bunkers are shitty but at least they can buy you time. I think thats your best bet maybe meeks has something else
with a normal 1 rax FE do you find you normally need a bunker or two in case of four gate? Or can you do alright without them?
@iowa
I don't think bunkers are inherently shitty. I've been playing around with the idea of once the game gets to 3+ bases to split off my side of the map with enough bunkers for most of my army while harassing everywhere with dropships. The bunkers should help if he gets fed up and decides "fuck it I'm gonna counter attack." It sucks when you gotta cough up the cash early game though.
way late, but both.
there is an amount of colossus that I don't think you can take in a straight up battle as T. let alone that there were also storms by the time the encounter happened.
on a different note, damn Check vs. Alive was pretty awesome. nice long game. check failed on creep spread and some decision making as the game went,f or sure., but I liked alive's play a lot.
TAKE THAT!!!
I had a clown complain that T was OP after beating me
so yeah they do that
all protoss players... because they're all the same
actually depending on what they're messaging you with, especially if its taunting, ignoring them just gives a sense of satisfaction
anytime I counter a cheese player and he leaves without gg I always send the same message
"maybe skip the all-in strategy next time"
and eventually i get the ignore. and it makes me happy.
The right thing to do is to turn the vortex into a baneling toilet instead of an archon toilet. Think catz almost managed to pull it off in one of the gosucoaching team league games.