TT1 just wrecked some nerd with that kiwikaki mothership stalker base snipe build. holy shit thats strong. not sure how it works vs terran but your army can basically be two places at once. if he counters you just recall, god damn.
I'm hoping someone uses that against TLO playing Z or CatZ or someone, who will then go Infestors + Burrow and simultaneously Fungal the Stalkers and Neural Parasite the Mothership, then Vortex + double Fungal the Protoss's own Probes or something.
The right thing to do is to turn the vortex into a baneling toilet instead of an archon toilet. Think catz almost managed to pull it off in one of the gosucoaching team league games.
This was very nearly the greatest thing ever. Literally a tenth of a second too slow. The casters were so confused.
I don't think bunkers are inherently shitty. I've been playing around with the idea of once the game gets to 3+ bases to split off my side of the map with enough bunkers for most of my army while harassing everywhere with dropships. The bunkers should help if he gets fed up and decides "fuck it I'm gonna counter attack." It sucks when you gotta cough up the cash early game though.
Yeah, I usually throw down a bunker regardless just to make sure I'm safe. If I see a 4gate I'll get two, because as long as you hold it off you win.
mEEksa on
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Seguerof the VoidSydney, AustraliaRegistered Userregular
Well, the build isn't going to help you versus the early collosi push like that because it comes before your macro machine kicks in. something like a flexible 1/1/1 build would let you get a reactor starport and a normal starport which would let you get enough vikings out in time.
See that's precisely what I'm wondering. Whether or not expanding like that slows down what I need to deal with colossi. But I'm not fond of the 1/1/1 build. It's a great change of pace...but I like to macro hard so I'm interested in knowing if you can hold an early colossi push like that with a 1 rax FE. What I'm thinking is that skipping the gas before expanding slows down my initial marauder numbers. So even though I get three rax up quickly, my marine count is too high and my marauder count is too low to deal with early colossi like that. If I get gas and a tech lab before expanding though...maybe my marauder count would be higher at that point.
I played in one of the recent tsl qualifiers(round 2 wooo!!) and got matched up against a 2400 master terran. He 1rax fed, than got tanks and a few vikings, while building 3-4 bunkers at his front. I tried to push him with the exact build that your having troubles with, but this just decimated it. He was able to pull enough scvs to keep the bunkers alive, I wasn't able to get to the tanks through the bunker wall, and his 4-5 vikings damaged one of my colossi enough that my stalkers had to hit them, so the bunkers were fine. I'll see if I can find the replay, but at no point in the game did I feel like I could win.
Impyrocker on
Quasi ignis
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
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Seguerof the VoidSydney, AustraliaRegistered Userregular
I played in one of the recent tsl qualifiers(round 2 wooo!!) and got matched up against a 2400 master terran. He 1rax fed, than got tanks and a few vikings, while building 3-4 bunkers at his front. I tried to push him with the exact build that your having troubles with, but this just decimated it. He was able to pull enough scvs to keep the bunkers alive, I wasn't able to get to the tanks through the bunker wall, and his 4-5 vikings damaged one of my colossi enough that my stalkers had to hit them, so the bunkers were fine. I'll see if I can find the replay, but at no point in the game did I feel like I could win.
DId you forcefield the SCVs away from the bunkers?
i hate to agree with iDra, but there are some serious flaws in the game that aren't being addressed. maybe that's what the stagerred release cycle is for, but it's not a good way to build a following that can draw a portion of major league sports interest. And the participation is there, but the approach is completely Hansu. Christ, the last Gallagher special had more viewership.
The first purpose of a game is to be FUN. Then to be entertaining. If you can make it deep, that's even better, but it first needs to be fun. It's a GAME.
I think that sc2 may have had a little too much of the corporate monetization factor influencing design. It is safe to say that we won't know until the Protoss pack if the game is whole.
And, this isn't a slam on games at all. You "play" games. You also "play" music. No one is going to say that YoYoMa isn't after a serious pursuit and shines above everyone else with his instruments being OP.
get a unit that says "stop poking me". collect more stats, and when they are screaming something at you, don't let some cutie PM insist that it shouldn't be fixed because MULE's were her pet feature. Mass numbers and proper analysis don't lie, if you look at them in an open and accepting manner, they should point you in the right direction.
You can't improve what you don't measure. If you don't like the results of the measurements, and won't implement changes to correct them, there is a serious problem with the way you conduct business.
Not really surprising at all, least of all coming from Idra.
Pretty sure his sentiments are shared by quite of few pro players.
What does he even say that's controversial? Doesn't take practice (translation = an exaggerated "this game doesn't have the harder mechanics of BW), Blizzard has been doing a poor job with the maps (I think we can all agree on this), and that Blizzard has had some really weird/nonsensical balance changes or at least considered them.
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I should be listening to that podcast
also... if somehow it's true then there are only 2 people who balanced this game that's fucking retarded but also incredibly amazing. I have trouble believing that though.
also of course idra hates the game, he isn't winning. there's still such a long time to go before the game is done, and it has nothing to do with wanting you to buy expansions... even if there were none coming we'd have to wait some time to get the game balanced.
personally blizz is the #1 company at this in my mind due to their history of balancing games (creating the most balanced game of all time, according to the same people that criticize sc2, as well as patching something until they truly feel it's done... even diablo 2 got big patches like 10 years after release)
and maybe that attitude that the game is so easy isn't helping. I get where it comes from and I understand it is infinitely easier than BW mechanically but that doesn't mean 'oh I played BW so I know everything there is to know about sc2' is a valid position.
If I've learned on thing from watching these Catz's replays, it is that mass queen is completely unstoppable. Well, maybe not, but this shit is pretty insane.
Graviija on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Things I agree with IdrA about:
30 second bunker would be FUCKING RETARDED.
A 2 person balance team is deplorable. Seriously Blizzard? This is a major competitive game with tournaments that have prizes of tens of thousands of dollars. They need to be taking this shit seriously. The balance team needs to at least be double digits.
That's goddamn ridiculous. It's not like Blizzard couldn't afford to hire some more folks if they feel understaffed or some shit.
On another note: What's the super secret thing you and kedinik are working on Seguer? How come you never ask me to be your co-caster anymore
3cl1ps3 on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
how do people know it's only 2 people
AND
how the fuck did 2 people get this game as good as it is?
... shit what did I come in here to say. forgot.
OH! I am mad I don't think I can do csl friday. grrrrr.
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
iNcontroL seemed pretty convinced that it was only 2 people, so I'm assuming that's the case.
3cl1ps3 on
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Well, all the progamers and so forth only talk about David Kim, and he's the one that been putting out surveys and so forth, so I'm assuming balance team is essentially made up of him and Browder, but they have assistants. That makes most sense to me because there's no way in hell that 2 people total balanced the game. Maybe 2 people with some pro help and some assistants just testing out changes.
Either way, I'm not really that surprised. I mean, Idra's pretty open about how much he hates SC2, and if you look at comments made by the other pro gamers during beta, it's pretty clear that they didn't really like it that much either. Granted, they may have changed their minds, but I really get the feeling that most of them prefer brood war still, but SC2 is where the future is.
Also, it helps that Idra's a zerg and pretty much every top zerg is saying similar things. Ret on SOTG last week sounded like he wanted to quit again, but then he's famous for that too. Nestea in his interview last GSL said that it was an incredible miracle he made it to Ro4 and he quoted Idra that it was harder for zerg to make Ro8 than it is for protoss to win GSL. FD's not talking about balance, but talking a lot about drinking and snowboarding so...
In any case, I'm a little worried about the state of the SC2 scene now that the honeymoon is over, but I think it'll be fine as long as nothing too big happens. New maps should help a lot too, but Blizzard's kind of dropping the ball there as well, so...
In any case, I'm a little worried about the state of the SC2 scene now that the honeymoon is over, but I think it'll be fine as long as nothing too big happens. New maps should help a lot too, but Blizzard's kind of dropping the ball there as well, so...
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
they're dropping the ball on maps cause it's a no brainer
I don't think they're dropping the ball on balance. it's really easy to say they should just fix it! ... but how exactly? without throwing the game out of whack in another way.
first you have to find the actual issue. something other than 'T is OP' or 'Zerg is UP'. something specific and actually fixable. it's not an easy job.
they fixed reapers, which were a specific and fixable issue.
If nobody had played SC:BW before and it was released today then there also be huge bitchfests about balance. It's not the game, it's the people, for the most part.
Lemming on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Vari I agree with you completely.
Balance is really hard to do because a slight change may make a huge difference.
Maps...well, the map pool sucked to begin with, and they haven't done a good job improving it.
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
the whole situation is different than BW was, to my knowledge, also because of things like sotg, and constant streams.
we know exactly what people who play the game 8 hours a day are thinking, inclduing one of the biggest whiners I've ever heard of who is also called 'professional'. and I say that as a fan more or less.
it is, not surprisingly, getting people more riled up than I think they should be. day9 understand how to be a pro and the power that goes with it. he says things like not to think of terms of balance, and he doesn't disparage blizzard because they haven't perfected the game in 8 months + beta.
ugh I just find it so frustrating. sort of ranting now so I'm gonna stop... but that's why I like it here. I think we toss out ideas and whatnot, and obviously would like better maps, but no one really thinks the game is destroyed or unplayable or 'terrible' as it is right now. I appreciate that.
Posts
This was very nearly the greatest thing ever. Literally a tenth of a second too slow. The casters were so confused.
I'm away from the family at the moment, and if there is a stream they might want to watch me get my shit pushed in.
Also, so many zergs.
Yeah, I usually throw down a bunker regardless just to make sure I'm safe. If I see a 4gate I'll get two, because as long as you hold it off you win.
Dunno if I'll have a co-caster at this point, kedinik you want to join me? It'd be good practice for our other thing.
I played in one of the recent tsl qualifiers(round 2 wooo!!) and got matched up against a 2400 master terran. He 1rax fed, than got tanks and a few vikings, while building 3-4 bunkers at his front. I tried to push him with the exact build that your having troubles with, but this just decimated it. He was able to pull enough scvs to keep the bunkers alive, I wasn't able to get to the tanks through the bunker wall, and his 4-5 vikings damaged one of my colossi enough that my stalkers had to hit them, so the bunkers were fine. I'll see if I can find the replay, but at no point in the game did I feel like I could win.
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
Sure, let's co-cast it.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
he has been banned on tl yet again, he is such a little man
i hate to agree with iDra, but there are some serious flaws in the game that aren't being addressed. maybe that's what the stagerred release cycle is for, but it's not a good way to build a following that can draw a portion of major league sports interest. And the participation is there, but the approach is completely Hansu. Christ, the last Gallagher special had more viewership.
The first purpose of a game is to be FUN. Then to be entertaining. If you can make it deep, that's even better, but it first needs to be fun. It's a GAME.
I think that sc2 may have had a little too much of the corporate monetization factor influencing design. It is safe to say that we won't know until the Protoss pack if the game is whole.
And, this isn't a slam on games at all. You "play" games. You also "play" music. No one is going to say that YoYoMa isn't after a serious pursuit and shines above everyone else with his instruments being OP.
get a unit that says "stop poking me". collect more stats, and when they are screaming something at you, don't let some cutie PM insist that it shouldn't be fixed because MULE's were her pet feature. Mass numbers and proper analysis don't lie, if you look at them in an open and accepting manner, they should point you in the right direction.
You can't improve what you don't measure. If you don't like the results of the measurements, and won't implement changes to correct them, there is a serious problem with the way you conduct business.
Joe's Stream.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
I think it was just a few seconds worth of mic checking before launching into the latest gosucoaching podcast.
Which is a pretty interesting podcast episode!
http://gosucoaching.com/node/145
e: Evidently not the relevant podcast, but still interesting. Gretorp, iNcontrol and IdrA discussing the ZvT metagame.
Pretty sure his sentiments are shared by quite of few pro players.
What does he even say that's controversial? Doesn't take practice (translation = an exaggerated "this game doesn't have the harder mechanics of BW), Blizzard has been doing a poor job with the maps (I think we can all agree on this), and that Blizzard has had some really weird/nonsensical balance changes or at least considered them.
(Day9 Daily)
also... if somehow it's true then there are only 2 people who balanced this game that's fucking retarded but also incredibly amazing. I have trouble believing that though.
also of course idra hates the game, he isn't winning. there's still such a long time to go before the game is done, and it has nothing to do with wanting you to buy expansions... even if there were none coming we'd have to wait some time to get the game balanced.
personally blizz is the #1 company at this in my mind due to their history of balancing games (creating the most balanced game of all time, according to the same people that criticize sc2, as well as patching something until they truly feel it's done... even diablo 2 got big patches like 10 years after release)
and maybe that attitude that the game is so easy isn't helping. I get where it comes from and I understand it is infinitely easier than BW mechanically but that doesn't mean 'oh I played BW so I know everything there is to know about sc2' is a valid position.
That's it? I can't seem to find any recent Drama in Idra's posts.
Joe's Stream.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Great at low food; great at max food
nooooooooob
30 second bunker would be FUCKING RETARDED.
A 2 person balance team is deplorable. Seriously Blizzard? This is a major competitive game with tournaments that have prizes of tens of thousands of dollars. They need to be taking this shit seriously. The balance team needs to at least be double digits.
That's goddamn ridiculous. It's not like Blizzard couldn't afford to hire some more folks if they feel understaffed or some shit.
On another note: What's the super secret thing you and kedinik are working on Seguer? How come you never ask me to be your co-caster anymore
AND
how the fuck did 2 people get this game as good as it is?
... shit what did I come in here to say. forgot.
OH! I am mad I don't think I can do csl friday. grrrrr.
Either way, I'm not really that surprised. I mean, Idra's pretty open about how much he hates SC2, and if you look at comments made by the other pro gamers during beta, it's pretty clear that they didn't really like it that much either. Granted, they may have changed their minds, but I really get the feeling that most of them prefer brood war still, but SC2 is where the future is.
Also, it helps that Idra's a zerg and pretty much every top zerg is saying similar things. Ret on SOTG last week sounded like he wanted to quit again, but then he's famous for that too. Nestea in his interview last GSL said that it was an incredible miracle he made it to Ro4 and he quoted Idra that it was harder for zerg to make Ro8 than it is for protoss to win GSL. FD's not talking about balance, but talking a lot about drinking and snowboarding so...
In any case, I'm a little worried about the state of the SC2 scene now that the honeymoon is over, but I think it'll be fine as long as nothing too big happens. New maps should help a lot too, but Blizzard's kind of dropping the ball there as well, so...
It'll pick back up with HoTS
Joe's Stream.
Weah weah zerg is so hard I won $50k
I don't think they're dropping the ball on balance. it's really easy to say they should just fix it! ... but how exactly? without throwing the game out of whack in another way.
first you have to find the actual issue. something other than 'T is OP' or 'Zerg is UP'. something specific and actually fixable. it's not an easy job.
they fixed reapers, which were a specific and fixable issue.
so yeah, the long wait times are probably a good thing. The metagame shifts a couple times a month, and new maps will probably have a huge impact
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Balance is really hard to do because a slight change may make a huge difference.
Maps...well, the map pool sucked to begin with, and they haven't done a good job improving it.
Except in team games, but those are just silly.
well, that or the SotG guys go through with their inception plan
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
we know exactly what people who play the game 8 hours a day are thinking, inclduing one of the biggest whiners I've ever heard of who is also called 'professional'. and I say that as a fan more or less.
it is, not surprisingly, getting people more riled up than I think they should be. day9 understand how to be a pro and the power that goes with it. he says things like not to think of terms of balance, and he doesn't disparage blizzard because they haven't perfected the game in 8 months + beta.
ugh I just find it so frustrating. sort of ranting now so I'm gonna stop... but that's why I like it here. I think we toss out ideas and whatnot, and obviously would like better maps, but no one really thinks the game is destroyed or unplayable or 'terrible' as it is right now. I appreciate that.