Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I totally agree about balance being hard to fix, don't get me wrong. Actually that's a good reason for there being more than 2 balance people, but in any case, it's a tough job. I think Zergs really are underpowered, but only by a little bit, it's just really frustrating to play because they're so fragile. The state of the game itself is alright, I think it's still too early to tell. I have a sneaking suspicion that there might be things that are just fundamentally weird, not necessarily broken, like the gateway-colossus relationship, but I think they're fixable with number changes and hopefully HotS will deal with anything that's actually broken. It just sucks for the pros who have to basically suck it up for now.
In any case, I like the game and I think it's heading in a good direction already. The games from yesterday showed how the new maps can make for awesome games already, and the new maps should help Zerg a little as well, even if they're super choke-heavy. I'm just worried that the foreigner scene won't pick up properly and there's a lot of sponsor money flushed down the drain, which dissuades them from investing again, even if SC2 becomes BEST GAME EVER. Like, how many people use any TLAF products? Obviously I'm not privy to their financial details, but according to the reddit interview, Heosat said that time will tell on their investment, while they fly players all over the world. It just seems really risky at this rather young time for the foreign scene. And GSL may or may not have empty studios or whatever, but I have a feeling that with their prize pool and monthly tournaments, they just bit off slightly more than they can chew. It's like there's a lot of money being thrown in, which is awesome, but no one's quite sure how it's going to work in Korea or out, and that there might be significant harm done.
If nobody had played SC:BW before and it was released today then there also be huge bitchfests about balance. It's not the game, it's the people, for the most part.
What's so wrong about this? I mean, the foreign BW scene has pretty much died. Just about all the top players have moved on, and Korea's BW scene has a dubious future.
Is it wrong for them to feel resentment? Especially if the game that supplanted BW isn't as good (yet, subjective, etc. I don't to argue about that point, I don't even know the answer).
-
Variable,
It's a hard situation on balance for Blizzard, especially if you subscribe to the idea of BW's balance being the result of mostly luck, with equal parts patch and map polishing it.
However, I think what most people are disappointed by is Blizzard's lack of "giving a fuck". SC2 has promise, maybe it'll become even better than BW, but it remains to be seen how committed Blizzard is. Why aren't there hired pro-balancers and a team of pro-map makers (iCCup regularly rotated maps, Korea had professional map making team for BW)? Why is BNet so bad? Some of the demands are tall orders, but they're expected because it's Blizzard and because SC2 is the successor to the best RTS of all time.
If I've learned on thing from watching these Catz's replays, it is that mass queen is completely unstoppable. Well, maybe not, but this shit is pretty insane.
getting queens around the map is a real bitch. even on creep they are the slowest zerg unit by quite a bit
Jars on
0
Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
If nobody had played SC:BW before and it was released today then there also be huge bitchfests about balance. It's not the game, it's the people, for the most part.
What's so wrong about this? I mean, the foreign BW scene has pretty much died. Just about all the top players have moved on, and Korea's BW scene has a dubious future.
Is it wrong for them to feel resentment? Especially if the game that supplanted BW isn't as good (yet, subjective, etc. I don't to argue about that point, I don't even know the answer).
I think Lemming's point was that the audience is different and that we used to not bitch about the game and work on improving, whereas people now just cry imba imba imba. And that's a really good point I think, since imbalance doesn't matter till the pro level anyway.
Euphemon on
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
well that's what I'm saying about the patches taking time and that actually being a good thing.
we can say that because they haven't patched it they don't give a fuck, or we can say they're being careful.
as far as not hiring pros... I get why that seems appealing but you have to understand that from some angles it's also terrible. do you really want an idra or artosis dictating balance? I don't. at all. would you want to deal with the shit storm of which pros you pick? who represents what race? that sounds intolerable to me from blizzards perspective.
I like battlenet but that's a separate issue. whatever problems folks have with it I can't argue with because I well, haven't had any issues. but I can't say folks are wrong.
I just find it funny that Idra states that he hates the game, and that he's convinced every other pro hates it too
If you're going to make a living doing something you hate, why not get a normal job? I realize it's partly an issue of Idra's choice of language, but it Just seems like a weird life choice to dedicate yourself to a video game if you don't even enjoy it
they're dropping the ball on maps cause it's a no brainer
I don't think they're dropping the ball on balance. it's really easy to say they should just fix it! ... but how exactly? without throwing the game out of whack in another way.
first you have to find the actual issue. something other than 'T is OP' or 'Zerg is UP'. something specific and actually fixable. it's not an easy job.
they fixed reapers, which were a specific and fixable issue.
IdrA made a good point in the latest Gosu coaching podcast.
Basically that larva allows such a drastic army size and composition that balance requires zerg units to be weaker.
Though of course he feels they've been made too weak.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Just faced someone going mass queen after the daily. That one is definitely going to effect the metagame.
Zergs bitching about balance? Shocking! Idra bitching about balance? Tautology.
The idea of the maps needed to be huge is also something that's pretty unsupported. SC2 is not BW. Stuff is cheap in SC2. There's no reason to have 5 bases fully mining at once - in fact it'd be counterproductive for anyone but MULE heavy Terrans because of the food cap. An 8 base vs 8 base game is not inherently better in any way than a 2 base vs 2 base. A mix of large and medium maps, and even small ones or ones with close position, should be included.
i feel like i'm tightening up my early phoenix play in pvz and pvp but i'm still too scared to try it out on the ladder. it seems like if i do enough economic damage via harass, i can surpass them once my expansion is up. there's still that window where i'm vulnerable to hydras but the zerg has to essentially do an all in and forgo catching up on drones in order to run over my army. having an early stargate up is also awesome for a couple of VRs to help deal effectively with corruptors.
still, i'm not sure how well it'll do against serious opponents. i absolutely LOVE going early phoenixes though because it finally feels like i can actually do some meaningful harass as toss without having to go down a completely divergent path like DTs or occupy my robo making a warp prism for harass that almost certainly wont be worth the cost.
edit: it's still shitty though how i feel like phoenixes do dick against terran. oh, killed 10 of my scvs? mule-mule-mule-endless infantry march to victory!
The idea of the maps needed to be huge is also something that's pretty unsupported. SC2 is not BW. Stuff is cheap in SC2. There's no reason to have 5 bases fully mining at once - in fact it'd be counterproductive for anyone but MULE heavy Terrans because of the food cap. An 8 base vs 8 base game is not inherently better in any way than a 2 base vs 2 base. A mix of large and medium maps, and even small ones or ones with close position, should be included.
The BW buffs are not saying that macro management is exciting and inherently more balanced and cool.
They're saying that the map pool encourages cheesy rushes over real strategic play because there's so little time to scout it and respond on, say, Steppes or close-positions Metalopolis.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Just faced someone going mass queen after the daily. That one is definitely going to effect the metagame.
Zergs bitching about balance? Shocking! Idra bitching about balance? Tautology.
The idea of the maps needed to be huge is also something that's pretty unsupported. SC2 is not BW. Stuff is cheap in SC2. There's no reason to have 5 bases fully mining at once - in fact it'd be counterproductive for anyone but MULE heavy Terrans because of the food cap. An 8 base vs 8 base game is not inherently better in any way than a 2 base vs 2 base. A mix of large and medium maps, and even small ones or ones with close position, should be included.
I agree, it's more specific things like jungle basin having no defendable third as Z, or blistering sands promoting all in play
i feel like i'm tightening up my early phoenix play in pvz and pvp but i'm still too scared to try it out on the ladder. it seems like if i do enough economic damage via harass, i can surpass them once my expansion is up. there's still that window where i'm vulnerable to hydras but the zerg has to essentially do an all in and forgo catching up on drones in order to run over my army. having an early stargate up is also awesome for a couple of VRs to help deal effectively with corruptors.
still, i'm not sure how well it'll do against serious opponents. i absolutely LOVE going early phoenixes though because it finally feels like i can actually do some meaningful harass as toss without having to go down a completely divergent path like DTs or occupy my robo making a warp prism for harass that almost certainly wont be worth the cost.
edit: it's still shitty though how i feel like phoenixes do dick against terran. oh, killed 10 of my scvs? mule-mule-mule-endless infantry march to victory!
as an open they are terrible against T. response to siege tanks? yes. later game harass when you have an army that won't be wiped out to a 1-t-a? sure.
Seguer am I right in thinking you won't be casting the CSL6 on Friday night EST?
Correct. Spending the day with my GF as usual.
Okay. Alright.
Since you're abandoning us, I need a volunteer with a decent quality stream to cast games of the CSL6. Helix, are you available? or Kedinik? I know Kedinik is playing, but Seguer often plays and streams at the same time.
Dhalphir on
0
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
I'll finish the last two CSL videos on Thursday+Friday and then upload them somewhere so Seguer (and whoever casts CSL6) can use them.
Klyka on
SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
so regarding a post I made last page, has anyone heard of 'massing' as a complaint? criticism?
I have no idea what the dude was talking about
I'm tempted to post the replay to see if I did something that somehow makes me a worse player. I guess the dude was just raging though.
Posts
In any case, I like the game and I think it's heading in a good direction already. The games from yesterday showed how the new maps can make for awesome games already, and the new maps should help Zerg a little as well, even if they're super choke-heavy. I'm just worried that the foreigner scene won't pick up properly and there's a lot of sponsor money flushed down the drain, which dissuades them from investing again, even if SC2 becomes BEST GAME EVER. Like, how many people use any TLAF products? Obviously I'm not privy to their financial details, but according to the reddit interview, Heosat said that time will tell on their investment, while they fly players all over the world. It just seems really risky at this rather young time for the foreign scene. And GSL may or may not have empty studios or whatever, but I have a feeling that with their prize pool and monthly tournaments, they just bit off slightly more than they can chew. It's like there's a lot of money being thrown in, which is awesome, but no one's quite sure how it's going to work in Korea or out, and that there might be significant harm done.
What's so wrong about this? I mean, the foreign BW scene has pretty much died. Just about all the top players have moved on, and Korea's BW scene has a dubious future.
Is it wrong for them to feel resentment? Especially if the game that supplanted BW isn't as good (yet, subjective, etc. I don't to argue about that point, I don't even know the answer).
-
Variable,
It's a hard situation on balance for Blizzard, especially if you subscribe to the idea of BW's balance being the result of mostly luck, with equal parts patch and map polishing it.
However, I think what most people are disappointed by is Blizzard's lack of "giving a fuck". SC2 has promise, maybe it'll become even better than BW, but it remains to be seen how committed Blizzard is. Why aren't there hired pro-balancers and a team of pro-map makers (iCCup regularly rotated maps, Korea had professional map making team for BW)? Why is BNet so bad? Some of the demands are tall orders, but they're expected because it's Blizzard and because SC2 is the successor to the best RTS of all time.
getting queens around the map is a real bitch. even on creep they are the slowest zerg unit by quite a bit
I think Lemming's point was that the audience is different and that we used to not bitch about the game and work on improving, whereas people now just cry imba imba imba. And that's a really good point I think, since imbalance doesn't matter till the pro level anyway.
we can say that because they haven't patched it they don't give a fuck, or we can say they're being careful.
as far as not hiring pros... I get why that seems appealing but you have to understand that from some angles it's also terrible. do you really want an idra or artosis dictating balance? I don't. at all. would you want to deal with the shit storm of which pros you pick? who represents what race? that sounds intolerable to me from blizzards perspective.
I like battlenet but that's a separate issue. whatever problems folks have with it I can't argue with because I well, haven't had any issues. but I can't say folks are wrong.
My new goal is to actively use this combo in every game that goes long enough.
If you're going to make a living doing something you hate, why not get a normal job? I realize it's partly an issue of Idra's choice of language, but it Just seems like a weird life choice to dedicate yourself to a video game if you don't even enjoy it
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
IdrA made a good point in the latest Gosu coaching podcast.
Basically that larva allows such a drastic army size and composition that balance requires zerg units to be weaker.
Though of course he feels they've been made too weak.
Zergs bitching about balance? Shocking! Idra bitching about balance? Tautology.
The idea of the maps needed to be huge is also something that's pretty unsupported. SC2 is not BW. Stuff is cheap in SC2. There's no reason to have 5 bases fully mining at once - in fact it'd be counterproductive for anyone but MULE heavy Terrans because of the food cap. An 8 base vs 8 base game is not inherently better in any way than a 2 base vs 2 base. A mix of large and medium maps, and even small ones or ones with close position, should be included.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
jungle basin wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so toss favored in pvz.
still, i'm not sure how well it'll do against serious opponents. i absolutely LOVE going early phoenixes though because it finally feels like i can actually do some meaningful harass as toss without having to go down a completely divergent path like DTs or occupy my robo making a warp prism for harass that almost certainly wont be worth the cost.
edit: it's still shitty though how i feel like phoenixes do dick against terran. oh, killed 10 of my scvs? mule-mule-mule-endless infantry march to victory!
gooooo nada!
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
The BW buffs are not saying that macro management is exciting and inherently more balanced and cool.
They're saying that the map pool encourages cheesy rushes over real strategic play because there's so little time to scout it and respond on, say, Steppes or close-positions Metalopolis.
hold off toss attack
attack a minute or two later and win
him: 'zzzborefest. U SUCK'
then in whisper
him: 'mass more noob. live forever in diamond'
note: he was in diamond.
how fucking sad.
I agree, it's more specific things like jungle basin having no defendable third as Z, or blistering sands promoting all in play
steps being way too close
as an open they are terrible against T. response to siege tanks? yes. later game harass when you have an army that won't be wiped out to a 1-t-a? sure.
edit: i guess i'm wrong, only OGS people there
that's what artosis said. But yeah, you know, artosis
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
"Amazing rush! Awesome game right here!"
Yeah that sure was a 4-gate.
Okay. Alright.
Since you're abandoning us, I need a volunteer with a decent quality stream to cast games of the CSL6. Helix, are you available? or Kedinik? I know Kedinik is playing, but Seguer often plays and streams at the same time.
I have no idea what the dude was talking about
I'm tempted to post the replay to see if I did something that somehow makes me a worse player. I guess the dude was just raging though.
Like "mass marines".
i've heard massing one unit as a criticism, but playing protoss I don't get the opportunity to do that much :P
i'd guess he just doesn't like losing to marine/marauder and lets face it who does.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Dhal: that's how my normal Saturday goes, and we're spending more time this weekend due to Valentine's Day. I'm not about to abandon her for Starcraft