Guys, that FFA we did tonight was most excellent. GG's all around!
I love FFA's. In BW, the most goodest way to learn macro was island hop FFA's (the group of guys I was playing with made me play to their level). I love FFA's, although we'll need to turn off locked alliances next time for some true backstabbing fun.
There is nothing more enjoyable than being able to come back from having 1 peon and quietly rebuilding while everyone else is killing each other. oh, and the backstabs... the backstabs...
in SC2, there is rarely any reason to go above 3 bases as Protoss if you can keep your opponent on 3 bases. The ideal amount of workers you want is about 75-80 which is enough to saturate 3 bases. Any more bases than that is a waste. Spreading the workers out gives tiny gains. In Brood War, however, 50 workers on 3 bases would mine a shit-ton less resources than 50 workers on 6 bases. It feels like in Brood War you're rewarded for expanding while SC2 rewards saturating bases that you already have, which is part of why all-ins from one base are so strong (the other part being map size).
There was a strong dropoff in efficiency of workers per patch at about 1.5-2. I think that increasing the efficiency to be perfect at 3 takes away from the game.
also, small maps suck, geysers at every expansion make me cry, and the lack of a 1 food zerg attacking unit makes swarming very difficult.
in SC2, there is rarely any reason to go above 3 bases as Protoss if you can keep your opponent on 3 bases. The ideal amount of workers you want is about 75-80 which is enough to saturate 3 bases. Any more bases than that is a waste. Spreading the workers out gives tiny gains. In Brood War, however, 50 workers on 3 bases would mine a shit-ton less resources than 50 workers on 6 bases. It feels like in Brood War you're rewarded for expanding while SC2 rewards saturating bases that you already have, which is part of why all-ins from one base are so strong (the other part being map size).
There was a strong dropoff in efficiency of workers per patch at about 1.5-2. I think that increasing the efficiency to be perfect at 3 takes away from the game.
also, small maps suck, geysers at every expansion make me cry, and the lack of a 1 food zerg attacking unit makes swarming very difficult.
in SC2, there is rarely any reason to go above 3 bases as Protoss if you can keep your opponent on 3 bases. The ideal amount of workers you want is about 75-80 which is enough to saturate 3 bases. Any more bases than that is a waste. Spreading the workers out gives tiny gains. In Brood War, however, 50 workers on 3 bases would mine a shit-ton less resources than 50 workers on 6 bases. It feels like in Brood War you're rewarded for expanding while SC2 rewards saturating bases that you already have, which is part of why all-ins from one base are so strong (the other part being map size).
Resources also seem harder to spend in BW, even if you play with easy mechanics in sc2bw.
And, there were a lot more area of denial units (lurkers/tanks + mines/defilers) which also made all the little chokes and high-ground pods and stuff we see in maps a lot of more rewarding to control.
-
How would you guys feel about doing a sc2bw tournament?
in SC2, there is rarely any reason to go above 3 bases as Protoss if you can keep your opponent on 3 bases. The ideal amount of workers you want is about 75-80 which is enough to saturate 3 bases. Any more bases than that is a waste. Spreading the workers out gives tiny gains. In Brood War, however, 50 workers on 3 bases would mine a shit-ton less resources than 50 workers on 6 bases. It feels like in Brood War you're rewarded for expanding while SC2 rewards saturating bases that you already have, which is part of why all-ins from one base are so strong (the other part being map size).
There was a strong dropoff in efficiency of workers per patch at about 1.5-2. I think that increasing the efficiency to be perfect at 3 takes away from the game.
also, small maps suck, geysers at every expansion make me cry, and the lack of a 1 food zerg attacking unit makes swarming very difficult.
....zerglings?
That's a .5 food attacking unit silly. :P
MNC Dover on
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I don't know why Joe continues to comment on Starcraft 2.
We can all read the same theorycraft he does, and even the worst player among us can put it into play better than he can, so he's really just not worth listening to. About anything remotely related to SC2.
---
On another note, I am still yet to have a Terran explain to me how to beat the build that Debo has been showcasing for a few weeks TvP on his stream.
In essence, its a 1-1-1 build that attacks early with 2 marauders, a marine and 3 scvs to check for a sentry or lack of sentry. So far, if there is one there, he backs off and loses nothing. If there isn't, he goes up and kills the zealot and stalker and forces probe pulls. From there its into cloaked banshees, then adding a second port, and going all-in with marines, scvs, 5-6 banshees and a raven.
And I cannot possibly see how Protoss can hold it. I'm not claiming its impossible, but someone as good as Debo should be able to tell us how it can be countered, and so far the best thing anyone has come up with is some crap about 1 base high templar. Which is not a build that can be done, so I don't know why people even talk about it.
Not only this, but the build isn't all-in until the moment you actually pull those scvs and go, because it does not cut worker production at all, so if the Protoss does the correct counter, for example perhaps he expands after fending off that initial attack with a sentry, using a 1gate FE, you back off and continue with standard 2port banshee because anything he does will be delayed until that expansion is up.
I'm open to suggestions, but I can't even think of a unit composition that could beat 15 scvs, 20-25 marines, a raven, and 5-6 cloaked banshees at the time into the game mark that it hits (I think it was 9-10mins), let alone a unit composition that is actually achievable, and by achievable I don't just mean you can front the resources to get it, I mean you can scout whats happening, and have time to prepare such a composition.
Such a composition could potentially include templar, but not psi storm as you won't have time to get it.
Debo suggested a spamming of stalkers as the way to hold it off, and I agree, that probably would, but given the map control that the early attack provides, there's no way you wouldn't see such a huge concentration of forces, and you cut a couple banshees to get a heap of marauders. And to be honest, you don't even really need to do that, as everytime I've seen Debo do it on his stream he's been floating 500-700 gas by the time he makes the attack ,it could easily be in marauders instead of marines and whoops suddenly the stalkers get completely murdered.
This is not a doom and gloom post. I'm not crying imbalance, I'm just questioning why no one seems to be able to propose an effective unit combination against this that would actually be feasible in a real game. If anyone knows the build that Debo does TvP, I would love to sit down for a couple hours with you and try to figure out a way to hold it off consistently.
A lot of that chart should take into account player skill levels, especially near the end. How much can/will that chart change with different maps (larger/macro types) though I wonder?
MNC Dover on
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
I hope the tourneys pay these casters big cheese, because being paid per page view is going to be small bucks for such a capital intensive thing like video streaming. Yes you get people watching ads but you gotta pay the upload bandwidth costs for each viewer.
Robman on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Would love to see that chart with a "pro players in each race" chart next to it.
From all TL Opens so far. Around 7000 players. First chart of it's kind I've seen with a relevant sample size.
Well for sample size its relevant on the left side. On the right size, there have been 13 winners, 26 finalists, 52 Ro4 so its much less so. If you look at GSLs, Terrans are overrepresented (11 of the 16 Semi Finalists) but Z have the best winning percentage and most overall wins. Protoss are 114-141 in the GSL1-4, Terrans are 171-158 and Zerg are 136-122.
In other words, I'm not positive these prove anything yet. Results certainly suggest Terrans might be OP either in general or on the current maps but I don't think we know definitively whether we need nerfs/buffs.
I don't know why Joe continues to comment on Starcraft 2.
We can all read the same theorycraft he does, and even the worst player among us can put it into play better than he can, so he's really just not worth listening to. About anything remotely related to SC2.
---
On another note, I am still yet to have a Terran explain to me how to beat the build that Debo has been showcasing for a few weeks TvP on his stream.
In essence, its a 1-1-1 build that attacks early with 2 marauders, a marine and 3 scvs to check for a sentry or lack of sentry. So far, if there is one there, he backs off and loses nothing. If there isn't, he goes up and kills the zealot and stalker and forces probe pulls. From there its into cloaked banshees, then adding a second port, and going all-in with marines, scvs, 5-6 banshees and a raven.
And I cannot possibly see how Protoss can hold it. I'm not claiming its impossible, but someone as good as Debo should be able to tell us how it can be countered, and so far the best thing anyone has come up with is some crap about 1 base high templar. Which is not a build that can be done, so I don't know why people even talk about it.
Not only this, but the build isn't all-in until the moment you actually pull those scvs and go, because it does not cut worker production at all, so if the Protoss does the correct counter, for example perhaps he expands after fending off that initial attack with a sentry, using a 1gate FE, you back off and continue with standard 2port banshee because anything he does will be delayed until that expansion is up.
I'm open to suggestions, but I can't even think of a unit composition that could beat 15 scvs, 20-25 marines, a raven, and 5-6 cloaked banshees at the time into the game mark that it hits (I think it was 9-10mins), let alone a unit composition that is actually achievable, and by achievable I don't just mean you can front the resources to get it, I mean you can scout whats happening, and have time to prepare such a composition.
Such a composition could potentially include templar, but not psi storm as you won't have time to get it.
Debo suggested a spamming of stalkers as the way to hold it off, and I agree, that probably would, but given the map control that the early attack provides, there's no way you wouldn't see such a huge concentration of forces, and you cut a couple banshees to get a heap of marauders. And to be honest, you don't even really need to do that, as everytime I've seen Debo do it on his stream he's been floating 500-700 gas by the time he makes the attack ,it could easily be in marauders instead of marines and whoops suddenly the stalkers get completely murdered.
This is not a doom and gloom post. I'm not crying imbalance, I'm just questioning why no one seems to be able to propose an effective unit combination against this that would actually be feasible in a real game. If anyone knows the build that Debo does TvP, I would love to sit down for a couple hours with you and try to figure out a way to hold it off consistently.
Sounds like a fairly typical 2port build. I used to do it all the time back in the day. It is most definitely possible to hold. Ideally you want to scout it and respond with phoenixes, but if you don't it just comes down to good army control. The most important thing is to force the PDD down away from the engagement. Scout it coming, move out and force the raven to drop a PDD, then pull back. Then you want to trap the marines with FFs so your zealots can do damage, and then focus fire the banshees with your stalkers. It isn't easy to hold but it is possible.
Couldn't you get out a warp prism and drop some burly angry zealots into his mineral lines pretty easily with that build? If he's pushing for multiple starports with banshees, he probably going to have to expand quickly for the gas and won't have the money for good turret coverage.
If you keep up the harassment on his mineral lines, he'll have to divert resources away from banshees and towards making vikings/turrets to ward off the drop harassment, giving you some breathing room to get up some money units like void rays, collosi etc
Couldn't you get out a warp prism and drop some burly angry zealots into his mineral lines pretty easily with that build? If he's pushing for multiple starports with banshees, he probably going to have to expand quickly for the gas and won't have the money for good turret coverage.
If you keep up the harassment on his mineral lines, he'll have to divert resources away from banshees and towards making vikings/turrets to ward off the drop harassment, giving you some breathing room to get up some money units like void rays, collosi etc
The build in question is a one base all-in, and it is possible to support constant banshee production from two starports on one base. So no, warp prism harass would be almost completely useless.
The real answer to 2 port banshee is a phoenix. Lately that's been my standard reaction to a starport with a techlab is to throw down my stargate.
If he harasses with a banshee, it will die because I can chase it forever. If he's using them as part of his army then the phoenix just add some tasty DPS, with the added bonus of also killing his ravens. Plus, the map control Phoenix give you is amazing.
Yeah, Phoenixes are far and away the best response and completely shut down the build. The trouble is scouting it in time to get a stargate down. If you see a bunker at the front with pure marines, you might as well open up Phoenix though, because there is a good chance the T is either going cloaked banshee or marine tank, both of which a Phoenix opening is good against.
mEEksa on
0
MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
The only problem dealing with it in my mind is that you still need the robo. If you have any suspicion he's going banshee you need observers. It's all well and good to try and go phoenix...but it's expensive to go both robo and stargate at that point in the game. Honestly, I would probably go stargate into HT's every game against terran if it wasn't for my fear of cloaked banshees.
My hatred of cloaked banshees skews my viewpoint a bit...but I feel trying to open phoenix against it is risky, b/c you HAVE to catch his banshees in transit and force cloak early. Otherwise...sure you will kill his banshee, after it's killed most of your probes. I just find opening starport against banshee is risky IMO. But maybe it's easier to shut it down with phoenixes than I'm assuming.
With the raven/banshees+cloak??!? you'll be able to easily support robo + stargate. Theres no transition from it, it's an all-in. As meeks said, Phoenixes and forcing PDD stomp the shit out of it.
What on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
the lack of a 1 food zerg attacking unit makes swarming very difficult.
....zerglings?[/QUOTE]
That's a .5 food attacking unit silly. :P[/QUOTE]
and the next unit that's meant to be part of your army comp is either the .5 baneling or the 2 food roach.
In BW, after ling next unit was a 1 food hydra. First, I think they made a mistake moving hydras to Lair, second, making a zerg unit 2 food doubles the amount of larva to OLs you need, and greatly limits the size of the army that you can produce.
Roach, great unit to implement. Move it to lair, bring the hydra den back to hatch, lower food cost to 1, normal range 4, upgrade range 5, and bring back the speed upgrade (attack rate may need to be lowered a little). Buff the roaches a bit to make them tankier, increase their cost, but move them to Lair, and they can still cost 2 food.
Wonderful things would happen when you got 40-50 hydras, and a shitload of lings to go with them. But its not a viable strat when you've hit the food ceiling, and everything you have is squishy.
Roaches are at T1 for a reason--they're larva efficient and they're tough as hell. They're the unit that lets zerg fend off early game armies, and they complement zerglings weaknesses nicely. If you swapped them with hydras it seems to be that zerg would be highly vulnerable to stim pushes and zealot rushes. We'd probably see the rise of the 5-gate against zerg--get just enough gas to research warpgate, then move the probes back to minerals and just flood your opponent with zealots.
Roaches are good.
e: also making hydras one food, let alone moving their tiers around, would require you to nerf the absolute shit out of their damage since you could get so many more of them, which would reduce zerg's ability to deal with air even further. Not a good change. There's a good reason these units are strong and higher food--it reduces the larva bottleneck.
lings are larvae intensive which makes them not as useful as they should be for a while
ok, I don't understand. For every 4 roaches you make, you need 1 more OL. For every 16 lings (8 larva if you want to count from there), you need 1 OL. If either roaches, or hydras back at tier one were 1 food, you'd be looking at similar math.
I think that 2 lings beats 1 marine, and 4 beats 1 zealot, so they're efficient, or at least damn close, mineral wise. Plus, with a pool, you double your larvae production as soon as your Queen pops.
Your point is moot Joe, as those kind of sweeping changes aren't ever going to happen. I like roaches as 1.5 tier and hydras as 2nd, but maybe that's because I never played BW.
On a slightly related note, a question to the higher ranked zergies out there. If I manage to run my lings into an opponents base, what's the best method of attack. Do I go for probes, or supply structures or what? I guess this also depends on how many lings I get in too. I always go for the probes and end up suiciding, seemingly without doing much damage...
Roaches are at T1 for a reason--they're larva efficient and they're tough as hell. They're the unit that lets zerg fend off early game armies, and they complement zerglings weaknesses nicely. If you swapped them with hydras it seems to be that zerg would be highly vulnerable to stim pushes and zealot rushes. We'd probably see the rise of the 5-gate against zerg--get just enough gas to research warpgate, then move the probes back to minerals and just flood your opponent with zealots.
Roaches are good.
e: also making hydras one food, let alone moving their tiers around, would require you to nerf the absolute shit out of their damage since you could get so many more of them, which would reduce zerg's ability to deal with air even further. Not a good change. There's a good reason these units are strong and higher food--it reduces the larva bottleneck.
I never said that roaches weren't good, I was arguing that the lack of a 1 food fighter made it tough to get "swarmy" numbers. I also think that it was a mistake to move the first anti-air (outside of queen, and yes, they are good anti-air) to second tier for only one race.
as for nerfing their damage - BW hydras did 10, SC2 do 12, they have identical HPs. I can't really translate their DPS as one BW is giving it to me in "cooldown 15" and SC2 is "speed 0.83", and i don't know the conversion rate there . They also cost as much as a roach (well, less because of the food differential).
What would a zealot army do against a meatshield of lings, backed by hydras? (prbly get stalkers).
Your point is moot Joe, as those kind of sweeping changes aren't ever going to happen. I like roaches as 1.5 tier and hydras as 2nd, but maybe that's because I never played BW.
I agree completely. It doesn't change my opinion that there should be a Tier 1, 1 food unit attacker for zerg.
Posts
Vulture micro.
Nuff' said.
(those were some sexy, sexy units)
...
sexy
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I love FFA's. In BW, the most goodest way to learn macro was island hop FFA's (the group of guys I was playing with made me play to their level). I love FFA's, although we'll need to turn off locked alliances next time for some true backstabbing fun.
There is nothing more enjoyable than being able to come back from having 1 peon and quietly rebuilding while everyone else is killing each other. oh, and the backstabs... the backstabs...
Joe's Stream.
There was a strong dropoff in efficiency of workers per patch at about 1.5-2. I think that increasing the efficiency to be perfect at 3 takes away from the game.
also, small maps suck, geysers at every expansion make me cry, and the lack of a 1 food zerg attacking unit makes swarming very difficult.
Joe's Stream.
....zerglings?
Resources also seem harder to spend in BW, even if you play with easy mechanics in sc2bw.
And, there were a lot more area of denial units (lurkers/tanks + mines/defilers) which also made all the little chokes and high-ground pods and stuff we see in maps a lot of more rewarding to control.
-
How would you guys feel about doing a sc2bw tournament?
That's a .5 food attacking unit silly. :P
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
We can all read the same theorycraft he does, and even the worst player among us can put it into play better than he can, so he's really just not worth listening to. About anything remotely related to SC2.
---
On another note, I am still yet to have a Terran explain to me how to beat the build that Debo has been showcasing for a few weeks TvP on his stream.
In essence, its a 1-1-1 build that attacks early with 2 marauders, a marine and 3 scvs to check for a sentry or lack of sentry. So far, if there is one there, he backs off and loses nothing. If there isn't, he goes up and kills the zealot and stalker and forces probe pulls. From there its into cloaked banshees, then adding a second port, and going all-in with marines, scvs, 5-6 banshees and a raven.
And I cannot possibly see how Protoss can hold it. I'm not claiming its impossible, but someone as good as Debo should be able to tell us how it can be countered, and so far the best thing anyone has come up with is some crap about 1 base high templar. Which is not a build that can be done, so I don't know why people even talk about it.
Not only this, but the build isn't all-in until the moment you actually pull those scvs and go, because it does not cut worker production at all, so if the Protoss does the correct counter, for example perhaps he expands after fending off that initial attack with a sentry, using a 1gate FE, you back off and continue with standard 2port banshee because anything he does will be delayed until that expansion is up.
I'm open to suggestions, but I can't even think of a unit composition that could beat 15 scvs, 20-25 marines, a raven, and 5-6 cloaked banshees at the time into the game mark that it hits (I think it was 9-10mins), let alone a unit composition that is actually achievable, and by achievable I don't just mean you can front the resources to get it, I mean you can scout whats happening, and have time to prepare such a composition.
Such a composition could potentially include templar, but not psi storm as you won't have time to get it.
Debo suggested a spamming of stalkers as the way to hold it off, and I agree, that probably would, but given the map control that the early attack provides, there's no way you wouldn't see such a huge concentration of forces, and you cut a couple banshees to get a heap of marauders. And to be honest, you don't even really need to do that, as everytime I've seen Debo do it on his stream he's been floating 500-700 gas by the time he makes the attack ,it could easily be in marauders instead of marines and whoops suddenly the stalkers get completely murdered.
This is not a doom and gloom post. I'm not crying imbalance, I'm just questioning why no one seems to be able to propose an effective unit combination against this that would actually be feasible in a real game. If anyone knows the build that Debo does TvP, I would love to sit down for a couple hours with you and try to figure out a way to hold it off consistently.
From all TL Opens so far. Around 7000 players. First chart of it's kind I've seen with a relevant sample size.
Makes me proud to be Zerg... actually.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
I hope the tourneys pay these casters big cheese, because being paid per page view is going to be small bucks for such a capital intensive thing like video streaming. Yes you get people watching ads but you gotta pay the upload bandwidth costs for each viewer.
Well for sample size its relevant on the left side. On the right size, there have been 13 winners, 26 finalists, 52 Ro4 so its much less so. If you look at GSLs, Terrans are overrepresented (11 of the 16 Semi Finalists) but Z have the best winning percentage and most overall wins. Protoss are 114-141 in the GSL1-4, Terrans are 171-158 and Zerg are 136-122.
In other words, I'm not positive these prove anything yet. Results certainly suggest Terrans might be OP either in general or on the current maps but I don't think we know definitively whether we need nerfs/buffs.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Sounds like a fairly typical 2port build. I used to do it all the time back in the day. It is most definitely possible to hold. Ideally you want to scout it and respond with phoenixes, but if you don't it just comes down to good army control. The most important thing is to force the PDD down away from the engagement. Scout it coming, move out and force the raven to drop a PDD, then pull back. Then you want to trap the marines with FFs so your zealots can do damage, and then focus fire the banshees with your stalkers. It isn't easy to hold but it is possible.
If you keep up the harassment on his mineral lines, he'll have to divert resources away from banshees and towards making vikings/turrets to ward off the drop harassment, giving you some breathing room to get up some money units like void rays, collosi etc
Steam: adamjnet
The build in question is a one base all-in, and it is possible to support constant banshee production from two starports on one base. So no, warp prism harass would be almost completely useless.
If he harasses with a banshee, it will die because I can chase it forever. If he's using them as part of his army then the phoenix just add some tasty DPS, with the added bonus of also killing his ravens. Plus, the map control Phoenix give you is amazing.
My hatred of cloaked banshees skews my viewpoint a bit...but I feel trying to open phoenix against it is risky, b/c you HAVE to catch his banshees in transit and force cloak early. Otherwise...sure you will kill his banshee, after it's killed most of your probes. I just find opening starport against banshee is risky IMO. But maybe it's easier to shut it down with phoenixes than I'm assuming.
With the raven/banshees+cloak??!? you'll be able to easily support robo + stargate. Theres no transition from it, it's an all-in. As meeks said, Phoenixes and forcing PDD stomp the shit out of it.
Sometimes it's the case that you lose.
Sometimes they win, though.
....zerglings?[/QUOTE]
That's a .5 food attacking unit silly. :P[/QUOTE]
and the next unit that's meant to be part of your army comp is either the .5 baneling or the 2 food roach.
In BW, after ling next unit was a 1 food hydra. First, I think they made a mistake moving hydras to Lair, second, making a zerg unit 2 food doubles the amount of larva to OLs you need, and greatly limits the size of the army that you can produce.
Roach, great unit to implement. Move it to lair, bring the hydra den back to hatch, lower food cost to 1, normal range 4, upgrade range 5, and bring back the speed upgrade (attack rate may need to be lowered a little). Buff the roaches a bit to make them tankier, increase their cost, but move them to Lair, and they can still cost 2 food.
Wonderful things would happen when you got 40-50 hydras, and a shitload of lings to go with them. But its not a viable strat when you've hit the food ceiling, and everything you have is squishy.
Joe's Stream.
everytime i play a random, i expect a cheese.
Joe's Stream.
Roaches are good.
e: also making hydras one food, let alone moving their tiers around, would require you to nerf the absolute shit out of their damage since you could get so many more of them, which would reduce zerg's ability to deal with air even further. Not a good change. There's a good reason these units are strong and higher food--it reduces the larva bottleneck.
ok, I don't understand. For every 4 roaches you make, you need 1 more OL. For every 16 lings (8 larva if you want to count from there), you need 1 OL. If either roaches, or hydras back at tier one were 1 food, you'd be looking at similar math.
I think that 2 lings beats 1 marine, and 4 beats 1 zealot, so they're efficient, or at least damn close, mineral wise. Plus, with a pool, you double your larvae production as soon as your Queen pops.
Joe's Stream.
On a slightly related note, a question to the higher ranked zergies out there. If I manage to run my lings into an opponents base, what's the best method of attack. Do I go for probes, or supply structures or what? I guess this also depends on how many lings I get in too. I always go for the probes and end up suiciding, seemingly without doing much damage...
http://steamcommunity.com/id/pablocampy
I never said that roaches weren't good, I was arguing that the lack of a 1 food fighter made it tough to get "swarmy" numbers. I also think that it was a mistake to move the first anti-air (outside of queen, and yes, they are good anti-air) to second tier for only one race.
as for nerfing their damage - BW hydras did 10, SC2 do 12, they have identical HPs. I can't really translate their DPS as one BW is giving it to me in "cooldown 15" and SC2 is "speed 0.83", and i don't know the conversion rate there . They also cost as much as a roach (well, less because of the food differential).
What would a zealot army do against a meatshield of lings, backed by hydras? (prbly get stalkers).
Joe's Stream.
I agree completely. It doesn't change my opinion that there should be a Tier 1, 1 food unit attacker for zerg.
Joe's Stream.