Well, my point was that even though the duration itself is longer in DAoC, it's still more manageable. Given WoW's damage levels, its CC durations are too long. We're agreeing.
Oh, my mistake. I still think that shit was out of control in DAoC too, though. "Manageable" or not, 20 seconds of CC'd dick holding is not a good design for PvP.
Anyway, I think Blizzard really needs to reconsider PvP CC and link a lot more shit onto similar DRs. Ridiculous crap like going from a 7 second counterspell into a 5 second stun into an 8 second fear into a blind, etc. is just asinine.
Also, does the 15-second DR reset timer start at the time of application or the time of fading of the last relevant CC effect?
Edit: Oh, and while I'm complaining about terrible PvP design decisions, why the fuck doesn't playing BGs give guild XP?
How are you guys doing this season and what comps are you running?
Im doing relatively well in 2's with a resto shammy... both of our first season with our respective toons and we just went over 1560 pretty much goofing around for points.
I'm running shadowcleave for 3's (UH DK, Aff Lock, Resto Drood) and we started out really well but have gone into a big slide. I think its becuase the lock is losing interest or the collective nerfs are starting to take their toll... we're getting discouraged.
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If I can match a dps class's damage cooldowns with my own I usually survive, but in bgs where you're rarely going to have those line up just right it can go south quick. I haven't noticed DKs murdering me as often as fury or arms warriors. That whole "next five yellow hits auto-crit" thing they get every give minutes seems to just liquify people.
I take it most of the players on this board are PvE heroes... damn I want some decent PvP discussion but posting on the WoW forums sucks and Arena Junkies is lurk central for me..
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
I'm still playing Resto Shaman (me) + Feral. We got hit pretty hard with 4.06 and also we play only once a week, so we're only barely above 1550. We were at 1700 but meeting like 10 frost mage + X teams in a row kills our rating.
I'd want to find a 3s team, but I'm on a Rp-PvE server so my options are very limited.
My partner is a resto shaman. She's improved leaps and bounds this season. When I first took her into 2's to get conquest points, she would be dead within 30 seconds and then I would solo the team by myself. Now shes in full bloodthirsty/vicious and we're kicking ass. Resto Shaman are amazing when they know what theyre doing.
My 3's team is in shambles. I'd leave it but they're my irl friends and I don't need drama.
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
To elaborate: I think they overnerfed Feral in 4.06. Cats went from great mobility, uptime and damage to basically zero uptime (if undispelled) and ok damage. This shifted my role considerably. Before 4.06 I could put out a lot of pressure with Purge. Now, I have to use most of my gcds to dispel my partner just so he can do anything at all. (the Purge nerf doesn't help either)
On the other hand, Frost mages weren't nerfed enough, or at least not in the right way. Their burst was nerfed, but their control remained intact. A Frost Mage can still take me out of the fight for too long and also has lot's of ways to keep my partner from reaching him. Pre 4.06 ferals were hard counters to Frost Mages, now it's the other way round.
Blizz apparently agrees on both of these points, because they adress them in 4.1, giving ferals some mobility back and nerfing Frost roots slightly.
While we don't win 100% of course, we have far far less problems against teams without a mage.
(ed: I armoried you and I'm better geared than your Shammy, so this is not a gear issue)
I agree they did overnerf a bit but you guys were totally insane before hand. Your uptime was near 100 percent and the bleed damage was nutso. My 3's team started out UH DK, Destro Warlock and Feral Drood... something was dead within 10 seconds every time. When they nerf batted ferals we went to traditional Shadowcleave (UH DK, AFF Lock, Resto Druid) and did well for awhile.
I love seeing mages on the other side, its almost like a garunteed win for us.
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On the other hand, Frost mages weren't nerfed enough, or at least not in the right way. Their burst was nerfed, but their control remained intact. A Frost Mage can still take me out of the fight for too long and also has lot's of ways to keep my partner from reaching him. Pre 4.06 ferals were hard counters to Frost Mages, now it's the other way round.
At 2.2k mages are almost non-existent, you just train them into the ground. They have no mitigation, the only way to get a nova to stick is to burn a blanket CS into a healer and then sheep, poly is probably the worst it has ever been without dispel buffers. Keybind wind shock, grounding, and l2p bro.
edit: never mind, low-skill players talking about issues that aren't there
I honestly do not understand where this crying about CC being too powerful is coming from. Caster CC has never been worse than it is right now with resto druids and resto shamans having access to magic dispels and dispel buffers being removed. Your healer get CCed and they're about to dump burst on you? Blow shield wall, intervene + start pillaring, go ghost wolf + pillar, you have options to survive.
Also, cleansing waters is hard confirm/confirm
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
I am talking about 2s and I am the healer, so Cleansing CC on myself is not an option.
And yeah, it's often blanket CS + sheep, so I can't Wind Shear. I can Grounding, but only if it doesn't get eaten by the Water Ele first. I can't use Grounding if it's just Deep Freeze (or Impact) + sheep.
It's funny that you go on a Warrior tangent, because I wasn't talking about them and Intervene of course is a root break for Arms (that Ferals no longer have). My cat partner can blow his cooldowns and/or go bear and then just sit there and take the damage until I come out of the CC. So maybe we did survive that. Now we lost our CDs and they still have theirs. Also we're still on the defensive, because we put no damage on anyone.
"Training the mage into the ground" is not an option for ferals anymore. And while I can dispel my partner, this still leaves the mages partner to do whatever (so mostly either starting the CC chain on me if it's a rogue or just mana burning me if it's a priest)
I'm not claiming that we are only held back by our comp. But I do see that we win 80% against non-mage teams and lose 80% against mage teams. Maybe you're right and we just haven't found the right way to deal with them. Ig guess I can try to get my partner to pillar more and hardcast more Cyclones.
Would you let the disc priest just run off to drink and try to put some pressure on the mage in that time or would you follow him?
And yeah, it's often blanket CS + sheep, so I can't Wind Shear. I can Grounding, but only if it doesn't get eaten by the Water Ele first. I can't use Grounding if it's just Deep Freeze (or Impact) + sheep.
Impact stun doesn't last long enough to get a polymorph off, the fire blast triggers a GCD.
You can still pillar while silenced. Mage novas are on a CD, cleanse isn't; purge the crap out of the mage (you're healing what little damage he's doing with it), shift the snares, use cyclone to keep up game momentum. Once mage healer is oom you make a swap and finish him.
If you were a paladin, complaining about mages might be somewhat valid. Resto druids and shaman though? No.
I take it most of the players on this board are PvE heroes... damn I want some decent PvP discussion but posting on the WoW forums sucks and Arena Junkies is lurk central for me..
Most people have gotten fed up with it and don't pvp anymore.
I run 2s as a resto shaman with a Frost DK. Its very painful and I just want the points. We were at 1600 with crap gear at one point, but that last few weeks have been brutal. I have a real hard time with shadowpriest and mage combo. The amount of silences, fears and polys is usually too much for my 2k resil partner to survive.
Also tremor totems cd being so long really hurts the cause.
I run 2s as a resto shaman with a Frost DK. Its very painful and I just want the points. We were at 1600 with crap gear at one point, but that last few weeks have been brutal. I have a real hard time with shadowpriest and mage combo. The amount of silences, fears and polys is usually too much for my 2k resil partner to survive.
Also tremor totems cd being so long really hurts the cause.
Sound like you need more resil, and or your partner needs to play somewhat more defensively. I see a lot of players who are on a healer team to play hyper aggressively, which of course gets them killed.
I run 2s as a resto shaman with a Frost DK. Its very painful and I just want the points. We were at 1600 with crap gear at one point, but that last few weeks have been brutal. I have a real hard time with shadowpriest and mage combo. The amount of silences, fears and polys is usually too much for my 2k resil partner to survive.
Also tremor totems cd being so long really hurts the cause.
Sound like you need more resil, and or your partner needs to play somewhat more defensively. I see a lot of players who are on a healer team to play hyper aggressively, which of course gets them killed.
Yeah I have 2800 resil. I think is the hyper aggressive thing. I have been talking to him about LoSing on double dps, so I can actually heal him and not spend the entire cc'd or out of LoS on him. But for whatever reeason that comp tends to screw me up the most.
I run 2s as a resto shaman with a Frost DK. Its very painful and I just want the points. We were at 1600 with crap gear at one point, but that last few weeks have been brutal. I have a real hard time with shadowpriest and mage combo. The amount of silences, fears and polys is usually too much for my 2k resil partner to survive.
Also tremor totems cd being so long really hurts the cause.
I run Shaman/UH DK and we obliterate mage/SP teams. I would reccomend trying Unholy. With the ghoul utility/Stronger death coils and buffed AMS casters like Spriests, Mages and Warlocks are easy pickings. Also your Shaman should be sprinting towards 4k resil. You can be satisfied at about 3500 but any after that is just butter.
MistaCreepy on
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If you're losing as resto shaman/DK against mage/SP post-bloodlust nerf, you're doing it wrong. Between wind shear, grounding and tremor you should never ever be caught in a full CC chain when your DK's defensive cooldowns aren't up.
I realize there aren't many players who are above 2k, but someone tell me how to beat tree-version shadowcleave as RMP.
- Can't stay on druid due to travel form and desecrations all over the pillar.
- DK is a horrible target due to AMS being up between CC DRs and mind-numb not affecting him.
- Warlock... nuff said.
Tree shadowcleave is exactly what I run (not at 2k) and they usually train me. The kill order is usually Death Knight -> Druid -> Warlock. If you lock the DK down it takes alot of damage and control away from the team. If theyre smart theyre locking your mage down so make sure your rogue tries his best to peel the DK off the mage. If your mage can get free you guys can win but to be honest its hard to keep me off a mage and Im not the best DK.
MistaCreepy on
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The problem's less one of keeping the DK off the mage and much more one of control and keeping ahead of healing. If the mage counterspells the druid's cyclone, the warlock is free to get fears off and ruin positioning. If the mage counterspells fear, the druid is free to go offensive and get cyclones off.
Is your problem with this set-up vs yours, going to be solved by the "nerf" resto druids are going to get with regards to their bloom?
Not unless the druid is bad and doesn't catform mana burns.
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
Oh, that reminds me: Does anyone else think they'll remove Mana Burn eventually?
Since they removed it from the other classes, the writing's been on the wall for priests, too. It's one of the few unique abilities remaining and Blizz doesn't look to kindly on those, imo.
(Disclaimer: I'm not hating on the spell, personally, I'd rather have it left in.)
Oh, that reminds me: Does anyone else think they'll remove Mana Burn eventually?
Since they removed it from the other classes, the writing's been on the wall for priests, too. It's one of the few unique abilities remaining and Blizz doesn't look to kindly on those, imo.
(Disclaimer: I'm not hating on the spell, personally, I'd rather have it left in.)
Oh, that reminds me: Does anyone else think they'll remove Mana Burn eventually?
Since they removed it from the other classes, the writing's been on the wall for priests, too. It's one of the few unique abilities remaining and Blizz doesn't look to kindly on those, imo.
(Disclaimer: I'm not hating on the spell, personally, I'd rather have it left in.)
Mana Burn and Drain Mana are / were suitably different enough.
Drain Mana was removed, because it was instant cast and channelled in the sense that if you then went around a corner having been hit by it, it still kept on hitting you (i.e. it was almost impossible to avoid). Furthermore, by the time you interrupted the thing, it had done most of it's draining. It wasn't really "fair".
Mana Burn at least requires a cast time meaning you can avoid / interrupt it. If Mana burn is going to be removed, it should be for other reasons, and not just because Locks lost Mana drain.
It's a bit rough if you're stuck in one place and a priest is burning you, but then I suppose you could argue that your team mates should be helping you in that kind of situation.
It could be argued though that mana burn should break fear (as in, I'm pretty sure you can get burned a fair few times without fear breaking) quicker than it should.
Mana Burn and Drain Mana are / were suitably different enough.
Drain Mana was removed, because it was instant cast and channelled in the sense that if you then went around a corner having been hit by it, it still kept on hitting you (i.e. it was almost impossible to avoid). Furthermore, by the time you interrupted the thing, it had done most of it's draining. It wasn't really "fair".
Mana Burn at least requires a cast time meaning you can avoid / interrupt it. If Mana burn is going to be removed, it should be for other reasons, and not just because Locks lost Mana drain.
It's a bit rough if you're stuck in one place and a priest is burning you, but then I suppose you could argue that your team mates should be helping you in that kind of situation.
It could be argued though that mana burn should break fear (as in, I'm pretty sure you can get burned a fair few times without fear breaking) quicker than it should.
They should have just reworked mana drain to make it more fair, not just completely remove it.
Mana Burn and Drain Mana are / were suitably different enough.
Drain Mana was removed, because it was instant cast and channelled in the sense that if you then went around a corner having been hit by it, it still kept on hitting you (i.e. it was almost impossible to avoid). Furthermore, by the time you interrupted the thing, it had done most of it's draining. It wasn't really "fair".
Mana Burn at least requires a cast time meaning you can avoid / interrupt it. If Mana burn is going to be removed, it should be for other reasons, and not just because Locks lost Mana drain.
It's a bit rough if you're stuck in one place and a priest is burning you, but then I suppose you could argue that your team mates should be helping you in that kind of situation.
It could be argued though that mana burn should break fear (as in, I'm pretty sure you can get burned a fair few times without fear breaking) quicker than it should.
They should have just reworked mana drain to make it more fair, not just completely remove it.
I'm not going to get drawn into whether it should have been removed or reworked.
All I can say is that Mana Drain in it's old form wasn't exactly fair, and that you can't compare Mana Drain and Mana Burn like for like (because the differences between the 2 are significant) and use that as justification in the latter being removed.
The Q&A about pvp did hint that Blizzard are trying to balance pvp with rated BG's in mind and not just arena, so who is to say that Mana Burn won't be removed for that reason (there's noticeably less cover in BG's).
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
I thought Mana Drain and Viper Sting were removed because they didn't fit into Blizz' vision of the new healing paradigm in Cata. The spells are very different but at their core all three represent an outside effect on healer's mana pools. Imo, Mana Burn was kept, because it would have needed some additional reworking of priests mana (like steel-angel said) that could have further consequences.
I could be wrong and Viper Sting was just axed because it's strange to have a non-mana class affect mana and mana Drain was axed because they couldn't make it play nice (see: redcoats posts)
In TBC I know it was an issue in that it could make a healer run dry pretty quickly if they couldn't dispel the poison, while in WotLK it hardly had any effect (made worse by the fact that most healers didn't really go oom) so it just got put out of it's misery and removed.
Viper Sting was definitely around in WotLK. I think WotLK is when it changed from a static mana drain to a % based one, though, so it wasn't overpowered against mana-based DPS specs like ret, enhancement, and hunters.
Oh yeah. So I read that Ask Blizzard thing last night. It felt gratifying in a "told you so" sense to see Blizzard note that rated BGs aren't getting the play that they hoped for/expected. No shit, guys. I called that last year.
Although their comment about rated BGs not giving rewards comparable to the time/organization effort and thus people just making "5 wins a week" arena teams like in TBC makes me think they're going to swing the pendulum back like they did before and nerf arena rewards as their "solution" to rated BGs being the dud we knew they would be.
Yeah, I think a lot of PvPers were very hopeful for RBGs when there was the initial announcement of them with Cata. Then around the middle of last year, they released the information on how they were going to work, and a bunch of us immediately went, "yeah, that's not gonna work. Thanks for trying, I guess?"
I'd love to see numbers on RBG participation, since all the anecdotal evidence I've seen seems to point to them being pretty desolate. My raiding guild on a PvP server did a weekly RBG day for the first month or so of Cata, and I think that was it.
Its the fact that queue times are nutso and if even 1 person leaves you have to replace that person and then other people start to leave etc etc and you end up spending 2 hours for 2 or 3 matches if you're lucky and by then you couldve won 5 2v2's, had dinner, took a shower, fapped and been back at the computer. Not to mention since there is no real penalty for losing RBGs even shitty players can get 2200 and tier 2 weapons. Its all kind of a joke and that sucks becuase having choices is pretty cool.
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I would suspect queue times are nutso due to a lack of participation. And presumably from being on the faction with more teams queuing (do alliance have fast RBG queues?). All I can do is cackle in my throne of misery as I saw this coming miles away.
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I also wish Dark Simularcrum wasnt so damn unyeildy to use I'd love to kick a cyclone right back onto a druid sometime.
Anyway, I think Blizzard really needs to reconsider PvP CC and link a lot more shit onto similar DRs. Ridiculous crap like going from a 7 second counterspell into a 5 second stun into an 8 second fear into a blind, etc. is just asinine.
Also, does the 15-second DR reset timer start at the time of application or the time of fading of the last relevant CC effect?
Edit: Oh, and while I'm complaining about terrible PvP design decisions, why the fuck doesn't playing BGs give guild XP?
Im doing relatively well in 2's with a resto shammy... both of our first season with our respective toons and we just went over 1560 pretty much goofing around for points.
I'm running shadowcleave for 3's (UH DK, Aff Lock, Resto Drood) and we started out really well but have gone into a big slide. I think its becuase the lock is losing interest or the collective nerfs are starting to take their toll... we're getting discouraged.
I'd want to find a 3s team, but I'm on a Rp-PvE server so my options are very limited.
My 3's team is in shambles. I'd leave it but they're my irl friends and I don't need drama.
On the other hand, Frost mages weren't nerfed enough, or at least not in the right way. Their burst was nerfed, but their control remained intact. A Frost Mage can still take me out of the fight for too long and also has lot's of ways to keep my partner from reaching him. Pre 4.06 ferals were hard counters to Frost Mages, now it's the other way round.
Blizz apparently agrees on both of these points, because they adress them in 4.1, giving ferals some mobility back and nerfing Frost roots slightly.
While we don't win 100% of course, we have far far less problems against teams without a mage.
(ed: I armoried you and I'm better geared than your Shammy, so this is not a gear issue)
I love seeing mages on the other side, its almost like a garunteed win for us.
At 2.2k mages are almost non-existent, you just train them into the ground. They have no mitigation, the only way to get a nova to stick is to burn a blanket CS into a healer and then sheep, poly is probably the worst it has ever been without dispel buffers. Keybind wind shock, grounding, and l2p bro.
edit: never mind, low-skill players talking about issues that aren't there
I honestly do not understand where this crying about CC being too powerful is coming from. Caster CC has never been worse than it is right now with resto druids and resto shamans having access to magic dispels and dispel buffers being removed. Your healer get CCed and they're about to dump burst on you? Blow shield wall, intervene + start pillaring, go ghost wolf + pillar, you have options to survive.
Also, cleansing waters is hard confirm/confirm
And yeah, it's often blanket CS + sheep, so I can't Wind Shear. I can Grounding, but only if it doesn't get eaten by the Water Ele first. I can't use Grounding if it's just Deep Freeze (or Impact) + sheep.
It's funny that you go on a Warrior tangent, because I wasn't talking about them and Intervene of course is a root break for Arms (that Ferals no longer have). My cat partner can blow his cooldowns and/or go bear and then just sit there and take the damage until I come out of the CC. So maybe we did survive that. Now we lost our CDs and they still have theirs. Also we're still on the defensive, because we put no damage on anyone.
"Training the mage into the ground" is not an option for ferals anymore. And while I can dispel my partner, this still leaves the mages partner to do whatever (so mostly either starting the CC chain on me if it's a rogue or just mana burning me if it's a priest)
I'm not claiming that we are only held back by our comp. But I do see that we win 80% against non-mage teams and lose 80% against mage teams. Maybe you're right and we just haven't found the right way to deal with them. Ig guess I can try to get my partner to pillar more and hardcast more Cyclones.
Would you let the disc priest just run off to drink and try to put some pressure on the mage in that time or would you follow him?
Impact stun doesn't last long enough to get a polymorph off, the fire blast triggers a GCD.
You can still pillar while silenced. Mage novas are on a CD, cleanse isn't; purge the crap out of the mage (you're healing what little damage he's doing with it), shift the snares, use cyclone to keep up game momentum. Once mage healer is oom you make a swap and finish him.
If you were a paladin, complaining about mages might be somewhat valid. Resto druids and shaman though? No.
Most people have gotten fed up with it and don't pvp anymore.
Also tremor totems cd being so long really hurts the cause.
Sound like you need more resil, and or your partner needs to play somewhat more defensively. I see a lot of players who are on a healer team to play hyper aggressively, which of course gets them killed.
Yeah I have 2800 resil. I think is the hyper aggressive thing. I have been talking to him about LoSing on double dps, so I can actually heal him and not spend the entire cc'd or out of LoS on him. But for whatever reeason that comp tends to screw me up the most.
I run Shaman/UH DK and we obliterate mage/SP teams. I would reccomend trying Unholy. With the ghoul utility/Stronger death coils and buffed AMS casters like Spriests, Mages and Warlocks are easy pickings. Also your Shaman should be sprinting towards 4k resil. You can be satisfied at about 3500 but any after that is just butter.
- Can't stay on druid due to travel form and desecrations all over the pillar.
- DK is a horrible target due to AMS being up between CC DRs and mind-numb not affecting him.
- Warlock... nuff said.
Not unless the druid is bad and doesn't catform mana burns.
Since they removed it from the other classes, the writing's been on the wall for priests, too. It's one of the few unique abilities remaining and Blizz doesn't look to kindly on those, imo.
(Disclaimer: I'm not hating on the spell, personally, I'd rather have it left in.)
the real answer is to bring it back for warlocks
locks are the most balanced class right now so no
Drain Mana was removed, because it was instant cast and channelled in the sense that if you then went around a corner having been hit by it, it still kept on hitting you (i.e. it was almost impossible to avoid). Furthermore, by the time you interrupted the thing, it had done most of it's draining. It wasn't really "fair".
Mana Burn at least requires a cast time meaning you can avoid / interrupt it. If Mana burn is going to be removed, it should be for other reasons, and not just because Locks lost Mana drain.
It's a bit rough if you're stuck in one place and a priest is burning you, but then I suppose you could argue that your team mates should be helping you in that kind of situation.
It could be argued though that mana burn should break fear (as in, I'm pretty sure you can get burned a fair few times without fear breaking) quicker than it should.
They should have just reworked mana drain to make it more fair, not just completely remove it.
I'm not going to get drawn into whether it should have been removed or reworked.
All I can say is that Mana Drain in it's old form wasn't exactly fair, and that you can't compare Mana Drain and Mana Burn like for like (because the differences between the 2 are significant) and use that as justification in the latter being removed.
The Q&A about pvp did hint that Blizzard are trying to balance pvp with rated BG's in mind and not just arena, so who is to say that Mana Burn won't be removed for that reason (there's noticeably less cover in BG's).
I could be wrong and Viper Sting was just axed because it's strange to have a non-mana class affect mana and mana Drain was axed because they couldn't make it play nice (see: redcoats posts)
In TBC I know it was an issue in that it could make a healer run dry pretty quickly if they couldn't dispel the poison, while in WotLK it hardly had any effect (made worse by the fact that most healers didn't really go oom) so it just got put out of it's misery and removed.
Although their comment about rated BGs not giving rewards comparable to the time/organization effort and thus people just making "5 wins a week" arena teams like in TBC makes me think they're going to swing the pendulum back like they did before and nerf arena rewards as their "solution" to rated BGs being the dud we knew they would be.
I'd love to see numbers on RBG participation, since all the anecdotal evidence I've seen seems to point to them being pretty desolate. My raiding guild on a PvP server did a weekly RBG day for the first month or so of Cata, and I think that was it.
Having to put together a full team of 10 to get in? Yeah...ain't happening
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