All of those things are proven, the Jackson stuff is alleged and unprovable. It's literally a man who is dead versus people who in some cases have previously outright denied what they are now claiming.
All of those things are proven, the Jackson stuff is alleged and unprovable. It's literally a man who is dead versus people who in some cases have previously outright denied what they are now claiming.
Jackson dieing when he did helped his legacy in a way that makes me angry then and still does now. Being in NYC that weekend you could hear his music spilling out of every bar and restaurant damn near in tribute of a credibly accused pedophile.
You don't settle for the amount of money he did unless your afraid of the police investigation being corroborative of the victims statements.
And unlike a potential willing sexual partner there is no realistic reason a child should be able to describe your genitals to detectives with any sort of intimate knowledge unless something fucking happened.
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But again, the allegations are decades old. It’s a shift in how the public and media are dealing with these issues, and arguably a good one, but definitely a dramatic one. Same way Polanski was winning Oscars and working with many of the best in Hollywood up until just a few years ago. Same way Cosby’s accusations were out there for anybody who cared to look, which is why Hannibal’s joke worked. Jackson’s accusations have been a late night punchline for a quarter of a century, and Leaving Neverland didn’t really change much. Or at lest it shouldn’t have.
Same way R. Kelly married an underaged girl...a famous underaged girl...on a fake birth certificate twenty years ago. That shit was all on paper and part of the public record. But a Lifetime doc finally made it matter? Nah, what we’ve seen is a cultural shift in the last couple years toward believing victims and (perhaps more importantly, since at least two of the above were well documented and not contested in the slightest) caring. The doc didn’t do anything but remind us of that thing we always knew but kept pretending we didn’t.
Still not sure how I feel about throwing episodes or movies or other media in the memory hole though. That episode is part of the series, and should still be available, I think. But we as a society are gonna have to figure out how we deal with that as well, as more and more huge cultural figures get outed as offenders.
You're literally describing the evolution of culture, which is what would or wouldn't influence the acceptance of something like an episode of a television series. It's the sort of action that makes sense in the context of a cultural shift.
Also, while allegations around these individuals have indeed been late night joke fodder for ages, this is definitely the first time I've heard the testimony of an actual victim of Jackson speak at length. That sort of thing really crystallizes an issue.
But again, the allegations are decades old. It’s a shift in how the public and media are dealing with these issues, and arguably a good one, but definitely a dramatic one. Same way Polanski was winning Oscars and working with many of the best in Hollywood up until just a few years ago. Same way Cosby’s accusations were out there for anybody who cared to look, which is why Hannibal’s joke worked. Jackson’s accusations have been a late night punchline for a quarter of a century, and Leaving Neverland didn’t really change much. Or at lest it shouldn’t have.
Same way R. Kelly married an underaged girl...a famous underaged girl...on a fake birth certificate twenty years ago. That shit was all on paper and part of the public record. But a Lifetime doc finally made it matter? Nah, what we’ve seen is a cultural shift in the last couple years toward believing victims and (perhaps more importantly, since at least two of the above were well documented and not contested in the slightest) caring. The doc didn’t do anything but remind us of that thing we always knew but kept pretending we didn’t.
Still not sure how I feel about throwing episodes or movies or other media in the memory hole though. That episode is part of the series, and should still be available, I think. But we as a society are gonna have to figure out how we deal with that as well, as more and more huge cultural figures get outed as offenders.
You're literally describing the evolution of culture, which is what would or wouldn't influence the acceptance of something like an episode of a television series. It's the sort of action that makes sense in the context of a cultural shift.
Also, while allegations around these individuals have indeed been late night joke fodder for ages, this is definitely the first time I've heard the testimony of an actual victim of Jackson speak at length. That sort of thing really crystallizes an issue.
For sure it's an evolution, and to be clear I think it's more of a positive than a negative. What's striking to me is how rapid and dramatic the shift has been. And how now, even with relatively little actual new information, we can go from celebrating an episode to disappearing it. We can argue over whether hearing their stories counts as "new information," but obviously in my mind it isn't. Hearing their story direction will for many people make what Jackson did (or allegedly did) more real, but this is always what we were joking about or laughing about or just trying to ignore. We always knew what it was, we just didn't want to hear it directly. Now we do, which is why now this doc exists, which is also part of that cultural shift.
I do hate seeing culture disappeared though. I can understand taking it out of the standard syndication rotation, possibly even removing it from the streaming service, but this is an episode that a few months ago made a lot of top-ten of the series lists. It existed, it's part of the series, and it should still be obtainable. Bury it in the special features or on a separate disc in the physical releases or whatever, but it shouldn't just "go away."
But again, the allegations are decades old. It’s a shift in how the public and media are dealing with these issues, and arguably a good one, but definitely a dramatic one. Same way Polanski was winning Oscars and working with many of the best in Hollywood up until just a few years ago. Same way Cosby’s accusations were out there for anybody who cared to look, which is why Hannibal’s joke worked. Jackson’s accusations have been a late night punchline for a quarter of a century, and Leaving Neverland didn’t really change much. Or at lest it shouldn’t have.
Same way R. Kelly married an underaged girl...a famous underaged girl...on a fake birth certificate twenty years ago. That shit was all on paper and part of the public record. But a Lifetime doc finally made it matter? Nah, what we’ve seen is a cultural shift in the last couple years toward believing victims and (perhaps more importantly, since at least two of the above were well documented and not contested in the slightest) caring. The doc didn’t do anything but remind us of that thing we always knew but kept pretending we didn’t.
Still not sure how I feel about throwing episodes or movies or other media in the memory hole though. That episode is part of the series, and should still be available, I think. But we as a society are gonna have to figure out how we deal with that as well, as more and more huge cultural figures get outed as offenders.
You're literally describing the evolution of culture, which is what would or wouldn't influence the acceptance of something like an episode of a television series. It's the sort of action that makes sense in the context of a cultural shift.
Also, while allegations around these individuals have indeed been late night joke fodder for ages, this is definitely the first time I've heard the testimony of an actual victim of Jackson speak at length. That sort of thing really crystallizes an issue.
For sure it's an evolution, and to be clear I think it's more of a positive than a negative. What's striking to me is how rapid and dramatic the shift has been. And how now, even with relatively little actual new information, we can go from celebrating an episode to disappearing it. We can argue over whether hearing their stories counts as "new information," but obviously in my mind it isn't. Hearing their story direction will for many people make what Jackson did (or allegedly did) more real, but this is always what we were joking about or laughing about or just trying to ignore. We always knew what it was, we just didn't want to hear it directly. Now we do, which is why now this doc exists, which is also part of that cultural shift.
I do hate seeing culture disappeared though. I can understand taking it out of the standard syndication rotation, possibly even removing it from the streaming service, but this is an episode that a few months ago made a lot of top-ten of the series lists. It existed, it's part of the series, and it should still be obtainable. Bury it in the special features or on a separate disc in the physical releases or whatever, but it shouldn't just "go away."
In a weird way, this mirrors the way perceptions of predators change, who are (despite some depictions to the contrary) often quite charismatic and ingratiating. The way the families of these victims talk about Jackson still involves a hint of praise or reverence. The episode in question is kind of no exception. If the allegations are true, then the way the episode won over our hearts isn't all that dissimilar from the way he won over those kids and families.
I recognize how fucked up that is, but it makes some sense. The glamor of these figures holds a lot of power.
Wait have most people not had to have the hard reconciliation between the fact that Micheal Jackson was a monster and the fact he made an indelible mark on music at a global scale and that his music is infuriatingly good.
I think a lot of people tried to handwave MJ's behavior as a result of his troubled childhood and admittedly shithead father. But it's long since been proven that just because you were abused, does not mean you get away with abusing others.
I think a lot of people tried to handwave MJ's behavior as a result of his troubled childhood and admittedly shithead father. But it's long since been proven that just because you were abused, does not mean you get away with abusing others.
Also I think a lot of people tried to convince themselves that maybe his behavior was inappropriate, but not like super rapey. That maybe it inhabited that gray area of "bad, but not completely awful" that you could handwave away due to the aforementioned abuse, and ultimately ignore because damn his music was soooo good.
I can still enjoy his music personally, because he's dead so whatever.
I think a lot of people tried to handwave MJ's behavior as a result of his troubled childhood and admittedly shithead father. But it's long since been proven that just because you were abused, does not mean you get away with abusing others.
Also I think a lot of people tried to convince themselves that maybe his behavior was inappropriate, but not like super rapey. That maybe it inhabited that gray area of "bad, but not completely awful" that you could handwave away due to the aforementioned abuse, and ultimately ignore because damn his music was soooo good.
I can still enjoy his music personally, because he's dead so whatever.
I remember being a kid and MTV pre empting whatever they were showing to put Micheal Jackson on to tell everyone that the police had mistreated him and taken photos of his junk amidst allegations.
Like even then I was pretty confident that it was a big deal
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Oh hey look, a better and more thoughtful way to deal with something like this than just randomly disappearing things
I don't like the idea of disappearing media in general. That said, like the creators said, this is their work, they have the right to control it, and they don't want it available anymore.
I can respect that.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I don't like the idea of disappearing media in general. That said, like the creators said, this is their work, they have the right to control it, and they don't want it available anymore.
I can respect that.
In an age where things don't enter the public domain anymore within living memory, I'm not sure that creators should have the right to disappear their own works. The bargain of copyright is that eventually things become free at some point, but now that that's gone the least we can ask is that things remain available.
I don't like the idea of disappearing media in general. That said, like the creators said, this is their work, they have the right to control it, and they don't want it available anymore.
I can respect that.
In an age where things don't enter the public domain anymore within living memory, I'm not sure that creators should have the right to disappear their own works. The bargain of copyright is that eventually things become free at some point, but now that that's gone the least we can ask is that things remain available.
It's not like they're breaking into your house and stealing all your DVDs. They're electing to no longer actively distribute one episode of their work because said work specifically promotes a serial child rapist, going so far as to mimic the behaviors that rapist used to charm and manipulate his victims.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
In this day and age, taking an episode out is mostly a way to say they do not think people should watch it rather than actually preventing people who want to watch it from watching it. Even legally, there are bunches of ways to still view most such recent works. For older works, it mostly means only having inferior non-remastered pirated copies available like the Star Wars Holiday Special.
Granted, it is different for things like a lot of games where they can permanently remove stuff and prevent people from ever accessing it again.
Oh hey look, a better and more thoughtful way to deal with something like this than just randomly disappearing things
Warner Bros. still doesn't have any of the Censored Eleven legally available. Some are in the public domain now, but most are not. There were plans to release them uncut on DVD but I do not think that ever happened.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I find it stupid that Groening and co. are removing the Michael Jackson episode from their catalog, but not the Mel Gibson episode, despite the fact that Gibson has a well-known history of being a violent, racist, anti-semitic misogynist drunkard. Like, you know who these people are when you ask them to be on your show, Matt. Just fucking own it you coward.
I find it stupid that Groening and co. are removing the Michael Jackson episode from their catalog, but not the Mel Gibson episode, despite the fact that Gibson has a well-known history of being a violent, racist, anti-semitic misogynist drunkard. Like, you know who these people are when you ask them to be on your show, Matt. Just fucking own it you coward.
Gibson was on the show in 1999 and his scumbaggery became a huge thing in 2006.
You could make an argument that the MJ episodes isnt being pulled just because of what MJ did but also the discourse around him. Nobody doubts what Gibson did. They make excuses for him sure but even those people acknowledge the basic facts of Gibsons history. Its still up in the air where the culture will fall on MJ. This act says something. It says "we believe the people coming forward. We believe Jackson was a child molester" and that message of believing victims does matter. It creates discourse.
Would taking the Gibson episode out of circulation do the same?
Well Al just got fired if what happened to Harlan Ellison is any indication
A few hours after arriving for his first day of work at Disney Studios, Ellison and several fellow writers headed off to the studio commissary for lunch. Once there, Ellison jokingly suggested they “do a Disney porn flick” and proceeded to act out the parts while imitating the voices of several animated Disney characters. Unbeknownst to him, Roy Disney and the other studio heads were sitting adjacent to his table. Ellison claims that he returned to his office to find a pink slip on his desk and the name on his parking space whited out.
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
Well Al just got fired if what happened to Harlan Ellison is any indication
A few hours after arriving for his first day of work at Disney Studios, Ellison and several fellow writers headed off to the studio commissary for lunch. Once there, Ellison jokingly suggested they “do a Disney porn flick” and proceeded to act out the parts while imitating the voices of several animated Disney characters. Unbeknownst to him, Roy Disney and the other studio heads were sitting adjacent to his table. Ellison claims that he returned to his office to find a pink slip on his desk and the name on his parking space whited out.
I know nothing would please you more, but the "Matt Groening" on the image is a dead giveaway it was approved. And even if it wasn't, these aren't the same circumstances. Your seething hatred of his position on the show will likely continue.
I think seething hatred is a bit much. I don't hate Al Jean I just think hes bad at his job and he's held onto it out of some weird gatekeeper mentality for 15 years.
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
I think seething hatred is a bit much. I don't hate Al Jean I just think hes bad at his job and he's held onto it out of some weird gatekeeper mentality for 15 years.
You've griped about his existence twice on this page alone, neither of which had anything to do with what he actually did.
Listen man you're free to put me on ignore if it bothers you so much
What bothers me is that I get accused of "being trollish" if I post anything in here about The Simpsons that is neutral to positive. I couldn't even post that silly picture of Homer strangling Mickey without it becoming an Al Jean bashathon. And I'm not necessarily a fan of Al Jean! The whole thing has made me not want to post anything in this thread, since any attempt at honest criticism of modern-day Simpsons turns into bashing the show because it changed 20 years ago. I don't try to start a conversation about why I thought last week's episode sucked because it would turn into knee-jerk "jerkass Homer" and "they never would have done X in the golden age!" (when in fact 90 percent of the time the golden age did indeed do X all the time.) I didn't post the thing about the Simpsons being renewed through season 32 because I figured it would turn into yet another Two Minutes Hate. I just don't post stuff here much because it always turns into people flaming the show without any real thought.
tl;dr: Yes, I know it's fun and cathartic to mindlessly bash the Simpsons, but it stifles real conversation.
Well Al just got fired if what happened to Harlan Ellison is any indication
A few hours after arriving for his first day of work at Disney Studios, Ellison and several fellow writers headed off to the studio commissary for lunch. Once there, Ellison jokingly suggested they “do a Disney porn flick” and proceeded to act out the parts while imitating the voices of several animated Disney characters. Unbeknownst to him, Roy Disney and the other studio heads were sitting adjacent to his table. Ellison claims that he returned to his office to find a pink slip on his desk and the name on his parking space whited out.
Eh, mixing porn and Disney characters is basically an instant-fire if you get caught, and has been for decades. This isn't that.
Well Al just got fired if what happened to Harlan Ellison is any indication
A few hours after arriving for his first day of work at Disney Studios, Ellison and several fellow writers headed off to the studio commissary for lunch. Once there, Ellison jokingly suggested they “do a Disney porn flick” and proceeded to act out the parts while imitating the voices of several animated Disney characters. Unbeknownst to him, Roy Disney and the other studio heads were sitting adjacent to his table. Ellison claims that he returned to his office to find a pink slip on his desk and the name on his parking space whited out.
Eh, mixing porn and Disney characters is basically an instant-fire if you get caught, and has been for decades. This isn't that.
Also, y'know, "Ha-ha, ha-ha, you take it Goofy~!" right in front of Roy Disney himself. That's gonna go over well. :rotate:
My wife and I try to go to Universal Studios every year because we like the rides better and it's cheaper.
It's going to be VERY weird this year when we go to Marvel's Adventure Island and Springfield - 2 Disney owned properties legally not allowed to be at Disney
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
My wife and I try to go to Universal Studios every year because we like the rides better and it's cheaper.
It's going to be VERY weird this year when we go to Marvel's Adventure Island and Springfield - 2 Disney owned properties legally not allowed to be at Disney
The Magic Kingdom now has cassus belli to annex Universal Studios territory.
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Jackson dieing when he did helped his legacy in a way that makes me angry then and still does now. Being in NYC that weekend you could hear his music spilling out of every bar and restaurant damn near in tribute of a credibly accused pedophile.
You don't settle for the amount of money he did unless your afraid of the police investigation being corroborative of the victims statements.
And unlike a potential willing sexual partner there is no realistic reason a child should be able to describe your genitals to detectives with any sort of intimate knowledge unless something fucking happened.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
You're literally describing the evolution of culture, which is what would or wouldn't influence the acceptance of something like an episode of a television series. It's the sort of action that makes sense in the context of a cultural shift.
Also, while allegations around these individuals have indeed been late night joke fodder for ages, this is definitely the first time I've heard the testimony of an actual victim of Jackson speak at length. That sort of thing really crystallizes an issue.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
For sure it's an evolution, and to be clear I think it's more of a positive than a negative. What's striking to me is how rapid and dramatic the shift has been. And how now, even with relatively little actual new information, we can go from celebrating an episode to disappearing it. We can argue over whether hearing their stories counts as "new information," but obviously in my mind it isn't. Hearing their story direction will for many people make what Jackson did (or allegedly did) more real, but this is always what we were joking about or laughing about or just trying to ignore. We always knew what it was, we just didn't want to hear it directly. Now we do, which is why now this doc exists, which is also part of that cultural shift.
I do hate seeing culture disappeared though. I can understand taking it out of the standard syndication rotation, possibly even removing it from the streaming service, but this is an episode that a few months ago made a lot of top-ten of the series lists. It existed, it's part of the series, and it should still be obtainable. Bury it in the special features or on a separate disc in the physical releases or whatever, but it shouldn't just "go away."
In a weird way, this mirrors the way perceptions of predators change, who are (despite some depictions to the contrary) often quite charismatic and ingratiating. The way the families of these victims talk about Jackson still involves a hint of praise or reverence. The episode in question is kind of no exception. If the allegations are true, then the way the episode won over our hearts isn't all that dissimilar from the way he won over those kids and families.
I recognize how fucked up that is, but it makes some sense. The glamor of these figures holds a lot of power.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
Still they havent pulled Mel Gibsons or Elon Musks episodes so it strikes me has half hearted
Also I think a lot of people tried to convince themselves that maybe his behavior was inappropriate, but not like super rapey. That maybe it inhabited that gray area of "bad, but not completely awful" that you could handwave away due to the aforementioned abuse, and ultimately ignore because damn his music was soooo good.
I can still enjoy his music personally, because he's dead so whatever.
I remember being a kid and MTV pre empting whatever they were showing to put Micheal Jackson on to tell everyone that the police had mistreated him and taken photos of his junk amidst allegations.
Like even then I was pretty confident that it was a big deal
Come Overwatch with meeeee
Oh hey look, a better and more thoughtful way to deal with something like this than just randomly disappearing things
I can respect that.
In an age where things don't enter the public domain anymore within living memory, I'm not sure that creators should have the right to disappear their own works. The bargain of copyright is that eventually things become free at some point, but now that that's gone the least we can ask is that things remain available.
To be fair, the quote is from James L. Brooks, while the temper tantrum in regards to Apu was by Al Jean.
As for Al Jean, well...
For reference, this is the last time he mentioned Michael Jackson on his Twitter.
Steam: pazython
It's not like they're breaking into your house and stealing all your DVDs. They're electing to no longer actively distribute one episode of their work because said work specifically promotes a serial child rapist, going so far as to mimic the behaviors that rapist used to charm and manipulate his victims.
I don't get it.
Granted, it is different for things like a lot of games where they can permanently remove stuff and prevent people from ever accessing it again.
Warner Bros. still doesn't have any of the Censored Eleven legally available. Some are in the public domain now, but most are not. There were plans to release them uncut on DVD but I do not think that ever happened.
Nope, he's still technically involved (Futurama too), and has enough influence to sign off on the episode being pulled.
Granted he's probably not doing much heavy lifting on the show, so to speak.
Gibson was on the show in 1999 and his scumbaggery became a huge thing in 2006.
You could make an argument that the MJ episodes isnt being pulled just because of what MJ did but also the discourse around him. Nobody doubts what Gibson did. They make excuses for him sure but even those people acknowledge the basic facts of Gibsons history. Its still up in the air where the culture will fall on MJ. This act says something. It says "we believe the people coming forward. We believe Jackson was a child molester" and that message of believing victims does matter. It creates discourse.
Would taking the Gibson episode out of circulation do the same?
I know nothing would please you more, but the "Matt Groening" on the image is a dead giveaway it was approved. And even if it wasn't, these aren't the same circumstances. Your seething hatred of his position on the show will likely continue.
You've griped about his existence twice on this page alone, neither of which had anything to do with what he actually did.
I call seething hatred.
What bothers me is that I get accused of "being trollish" if I post anything in here about The Simpsons that is neutral to positive. I couldn't even post that silly picture of Homer strangling Mickey without it becoming an Al Jean bashathon. And I'm not necessarily a fan of Al Jean! The whole thing has made me not want to post anything in this thread, since any attempt at honest criticism of modern-day Simpsons turns into bashing the show because it changed 20 years ago. I don't try to start a conversation about why I thought last week's episode sucked because it would turn into knee-jerk "jerkass Homer" and "they never would have done X in the golden age!" (when in fact 90 percent of the time the golden age did indeed do X all the time.) I didn't post the thing about the Simpsons being renewed through season 32 because I figured it would turn into yet another Two Minutes Hate. I just don't post stuff here much because it always turns into people flaming the show without any real thought.
tl;dr: Yes, I know it's fun and cathartic to mindlessly bash the Simpsons, but it stifles real conversation.
Eh, mixing porn and Disney characters is basically an instant-fire if you get caught, and has been for decades. This isn't that.
Churros are still 12 bucks after employee discount though
Also, y'know, "Ha-ha, ha-ha, you take it Goofy~!" right in front of Roy Disney himself. That's gonna go over well. :rotate:
It's going to be VERY weird this year when we go to Marvel's Adventure Island and Springfield - 2 Disney owned properties legally not allowed to be at Disney
The Magic Kingdom now has cassus belli to annex Universal Studios territory.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State