Having a solid BO is about as fundamental as macro.
I am going to disagree. Obviously you will have openings and such that modify how you play and what strategies you will be using initially, but I think anything beyond 20 or 30 supply should not be set in stone. You should be able to contort and conform with the game as it progresses. It's better to have a general idea of "I want to go X" and because of the massive amount of games you've played, you just naturally know that it will involve having to get a certain amount of resources, workers, and safety before being able to get there. I think revolving your play around build orders and not natural decision making is what puts a lot of gold and diamond players looking to advance in the rut. They focus too much on details and just end up getting beat by a player who can look and predict better.
I don't think I'd ever tell anyone sub-diamond to focus on build orders. Again, openings yes, build orders no
I had kind of a backwards approach to learning this game, I suppose? I started off by just learning BOs and practicing them against other people until I was comfortable with it. Through the process of optimizing and learning the build order I learned about economy management, macro, army control, and also improved my mechanics.
Having a solid BO is about as fundamental as macro.
I feel that worrying too much about your precise build order, and practicing in a vacuum using YABOT doesn't help you improve in the same way that laddering or just playing games will.
For instance, a bronze terran should be thinking "Ok, I'm going to be getting some barracks, trying not to get supply blocked, and then building a ton of units".
I have friends who are learning the game, and they worry far too much about the specific order of when to get things, or what they should be getting. For the most part I tell them, "Just get a lot of shit, don't get supply blocked and keep building workers". Every single time, this improves their play waaaay more than trying to guide them through the specifics of an exact build order.
And over time as they play this way, they realize that there is an optimal way that they should be getting things, based on the way they approach the game. This leads to them discovering their own 'build orders', which usually end up being completely functional.
I've also started getting more comfortable with the first 4 minutes or so of a match in SC2, which is a huggeee improvement! I actually have an okay amount of units at 7 minutes!
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
the good thing about a build order is learning things like constant production and facilitating that with building timing/tech timing and the amount of things to get.
but reading a build order off a page doesn't necessarily teach you that.
so if you want to go one route I say learn the basics and just play your ass off against real people.
from the other direction, yabot your ass off until you have a single flawless build. and I don't mean you hit it sometimes, I mean you know it inside out and upside down.
I think both of those paths can work but the former gives more weight to game knowledge and the latter gives more weight to hitting spots. the problem there is hitting spots is hard when you are playing a real person.
Eh, build order will let you win against someone who doesn't counter it, but your build order is less important until the upper teirs.
I think it's rather crucial to follow the day9 school of logic in that "you should build more shit" until you get good at that. One of my friends in master can school me handily using no set build order as any of the three races, and while I'm not great at starcraft I'm definitely not bronze level or anything
I think a good way to look at it is this. Playing the game gives you experience with the units, the abilities and the general timings. It gives you a basic "structure" of how most games will go. Once you understand that, a good build order allows you to exploit the basic timings and structure that you've already learned.
I agree on your point of the 50 supply - 5th Rax. However, I think knowing 14 Hatch/14 Pool, 10Supply/12Rax/13Ref, and 9 Pylon/12 Gate are essential. A solid, flexible BO with good macro will easily put any player into diamond. The point I see you're making supports a solid BO however. If he proxies/all-ins/cheeses you and you're not prepared, what do you do? Of course you'll deviate from your initial build, but after you've survived where do you go? Having a good BO with an objective in mind will help.
EDIT: I'm speaking more in terms of Plat/Diamond players. I heartily agree that practicing YABOT if you're in bronze is a waste of time.
What on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
and it is only half worthwhile, because you won't get harassed at all for your open with YABOT, and as soon as you make contact with the enemy, specific build orders succumb to chaos. (like when so many of you effing double gas steal on me)
But, if you want to make a tight fast hitting open? yeh, practice the shit out of it to see if you can shave seconds off of it. If you're learning a new FE style open, run through it a couple of times, just to make sure you have the timings down.
It isn't for real game simulation, its for getting the first 5-6 minutes TIGHT.
I have spent a little bit of time practicing different build orders, but not too much. Honestly the most important thing it taught me was that macro matters more than BOs--I would try to execute them, forget a pylon or get distracted scouting, and then suddenly I hit a major benchmark for the build and I'm 15 supply behind where I could have been.
So then I work on the build without even really thinking about it, just paying attention to supply, probe production, and getting buildings plopped down when I have the cash, and things work out well.
Then I do the same thing, but just winging the opening and getting the buildings I feel like making based on my scouting, and that works out really well too. The build order isn't all that important but it's a good tool to try and execute and realize "oh, shit, a guy with good macro doing this has way more crap than I do, despite doing exactly the same thing! I should improve my macro!"
which is why my current yabot practice is a macro-oriented open. i've got a killer early pressure/all-in down fairly tight, which requires good macro and micro (hitting all your queen injects, and producing lings when there's larvae sitting around, is still macro).
now its on to a tight universal macro oriented open.
a large part of macro is being able to keep it somewhat together while shit is going down
Yeah, this is actually a good point. I've played guitar for years, and when I start teaching new students, I ask them what they think the difference is between a 'good' and 'great' guitar player is.
They'll start saying 'Oh it's scales and fancy fast speed runs and oh mannnn', but I tell them the only main difference between being good and great, is how solid are they on their bad day.
Anyone can have an amazing day, or an amazing show, but a true test of skill is consistency, and the ability to make your quality great on a universal level.
I'm trying to take this mindset into SC2, but it's touuuggghhh
a large part of macro is being able to keep it somewhat together while shit is going down
Yes. But if you can't macro in a peaceful setting (more specifically, you don't know what your timings are or your composition looks like with ideal macro) you have no hope of macroing in a real game. Furthermore, without that experience, you have no way to how close your are to your ideal macro state to be able to improve.
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
I know everyone has said it, but all new players should really ignore build orders.
Build orders develop naturally from good macro: build out of every building, don't get supply blocked, build other buildings towards your end goal as you can, expand when it is safe to do so
Why is it 9 pylon, 13 gate? Because 9 pylon allows you to have close to continuous probe production without getting supply blocked during your opening. The different gateway timings are significant because of probe production as well 10 gate means you're going to miss a cycle of probe production, 12 gate means you'll have a small bump during probe production, and 13 or 14 gate allows for continuous probe production while you get your gateway up.
Eventually, knowing when you throw each of your buildings down in your opening is important to avoid macro bumps - but those timings develop because you're optimizing your plan execution.
The only thing I've been practicing in custom games is 10 depot/12 rax/13 gas/15 OC, and I'm feeling more comfortable with it, enough-so that I can do the full opening pretty clean with no supply blocking. Feels good!
My next order of business is to take it on ladder, then learn how to scout. I need to know exactly what I need to be looking for while I scout, and what specific things would mean. I feel that if I can properly read what my opponent is doing, while keeping my macro my main priority, I can get out of Bronze within a month or so.
I liked terran a lot more when we could build a barracks without a supply depot. Right now there is nothing else to do other than 10depot/12rax/13gas/15oc
The only thing I've been practicing in custom games is 10 depot/12 rax/13 gas/15 OC, and I'm feeling more comfortable with it, enough-so that I can do the full opening pretty clean with no supply blocking. Feels good!
This is the other part of BO. If you practice a build order you can execute it without thinking about it too much. If you can execute it without thinking too much about it, you can do other stuff with your scouting worker/overlord.
If you're constantly looking up "Ok in a second I'll have enough for a rax/gate/pool", that takes more brain power than having done the build a number of times and knowing when you need to. Most people have a build order, they may just not think of it that way.
The only thing I've been practicing in custom games is 10 depot/12 rax/13 gas/15 OC, and I'm feeling more comfortable with it, enough-so that I can do the full opening pretty clean with no supply blocking. Feels good!
My next order of business is to take it on ladder, then learn how to scout. I need to know exactly what I need to be looking for while I scout, and what specific things would mean. I feel that if I can properly read what my opponent is doing, while keeping my macro my main priority, I can get out of Bronze within a month or so.
Here's hoping!
Not to discourage scouting, because it is a skill you should learn - if only to spot early pressure/rush builds, but you don't need to scout to get out of bronze. If you macro well, you'll even beat most cheesers because bronze level cheese isn't executed well enough to beat a solid opening. Silver and gold level cheesers are likely to be more trouble.
My advice: do practice scouting and keeping your build together in the early game, but just macro hard and be aggressive. Most bronze level players rely on a "trick" or "power unit" to win - like DTs, mass void ray, cloak banshees, mutalisks, ect - so solid aggression in your can just straight up win you a lot of games there because they tend to try to tech too fast without macroing anything else. The other major strategy in bronze is cheese - which, again, is usually too sloppy to use against good macro. Lastly, you'll play other players like you - but you'll win if you have better macro.
I liked terran a lot more when we could build a barracks without a supply depot. Right now there is nothing else to do other than 10depot/12rax/13gas/15oc
sorry that this is late, but after just waking up from a myriad of exciting and big announcements, I find that kellymilkies is co casting the GSL in code A.
oh hell no
and I was actually excited for those matches too! god damn it.
PoolCue on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I foresee the Reaper making a useful comeback in future expansions. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this, but the days of having so many situational or near useless units and spells (ala BW) as a thing of the past.
MNC Dover on
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
I mean, I'll definitely watch the foreigner matches, but I have a high suspicion that I will not enjoy it in terms of the commentary. maybe I'll just mute the sound
Not to discourage scouting, because it is a skill you should learn - if only to spot early pressure/rush builds, but you don't need to scout to get out of bronze.
I'm pretty famous in my circle of friends for never scouting. Scouting with drones? Fuck that. Who needs that? I'll usually just hover my overlord over their natural. And once I have a few lings out, I'll run one up the ramp. But before that? Fuck no.
TheBog on
0
tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
I went ahead and found a few VODs of her doing various matches.
When it was over, I just kind of sighed and shook my head.
I mean, I'll definitely watch the foreigner matches, but I have a high suspicion that I will not enjoy it in terms of the commentary. maybe I'll just mute the sound
yeah this is pretty much what i'm going to do.
whose fucking retarded idea was it to let her cast?
there must have been dozens of people lining up to cast that shit.
you know you're scraping the bottom of the proverbial barrel when you ask kellymilkies to do it.
Posts
I am going to disagree. Obviously you will have openings and such that modify how you play and what strategies you will be using initially, but I think anything beyond 20 or 30 supply should not be set in stone. You should be able to contort and conform with the game as it progresses. It's better to have a general idea of "I want to go X" and because of the massive amount of games you've played, you just naturally know that it will involve having to get a certain amount of resources, workers, and safety before being able to get there. I think revolving your play around build orders and not natural decision making is what puts a lot of gold and diamond players looking to advance in the rut. They focus too much on details and just end up getting beat by a player who can look and predict better.
I don't think I'd ever tell anyone sub-diamond to focus on build orders. Again, openings yes, build orders no
I feel that worrying too much about your precise build order, and practicing in a vacuum using YABOT doesn't help you improve in the same way that laddering or just playing games will.
For instance, a bronze terran should be thinking "Ok, I'm going to be getting some barracks, trying not to get supply blocked, and then building a ton of units".
I have friends who are learning the game, and they worry far too much about the specific order of when to get things, or what they should be getting. For the most part I tell them, "Just get a lot of shit, don't get supply blocked and keep building workers". Every single time, this improves their play waaaay more than trying to guide them through the specifics of an exact build order.
And over time as they play this way, they realize that there is an optimal way that they should be getting things, based on the way they approach the game. This leads to them discovering their own 'build orders', which usually end up being completely functional.
Might be a big reason why I'm not Masters yet, but I'm OK with that.
Just play it like it was chess, on crack.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I've also started getting more comfortable with the first 4 minutes or so of a match in SC2, which is a huggeee improvement! I actually have an okay amount of units at 7 minutes!
but reading a build order off a page doesn't necessarily teach you that.
so if you want to go one route I say learn the basics and just play your ass off against real people.
from the other direction, yabot your ass off until you have a single flawless build. and I don't mean you hit it sometimes, I mean you know it inside out and upside down.
I think both of those paths can work but the former gives more weight to game knowledge and the latter gives more weight to hitting spots. the problem there is hitting spots is hard when you are playing a real person.
I think it's rather crucial to follow the day9 school of logic in that "you should build more shit" until you get good at that. One of my friends in master can school me handily using no set build order as any of the three races, and while I'm not great at starcraft I'm definitely not bronze level or anything
EDIT: I'm speaking more in terms of Plat/Diamond players. I heartily agree that practicing YABOT if you're in bronze is a waste of time.
>.>
i use YABOT to tighten openings. that's it.
and it is only half worthwhile, because you won't get harassed at all for your open with YABOT, and as soon as you make contact with the enemy, specific build orders succumb to chaos. (like when so many of you effing double gas steal on me)
But, if you want to make a tight fast hitting open? yeh, practice the shit out of it to see if you can shave seconds off of it. If you're learning a new FE style open, run through it a couple of times, just to make sure you have the timings down.
It isn't for real game simulation, its for getting the first 5-6 minutes TIGHT.
Joe's Stream.
I know, I was just teasing
this reminds me of what ben franklin said
"there are two things that are certain in life: duld owning"
I haven't changed any graphics settings, it didn't happen yesterday, before the update, and I haven't experienced performance problems in other games.
So then I work on the build without even really thinking about it, just paying attention to supply, probe production, and getting buildings plopped down when I have the cash, and things work out well.
Then I do the same thing, but just winging the opening and getting the buildings I feel like making based on my scouting, and that works out really well too. The build order isn't all that important but it's a good tool to try and execute and realize "oh, shit, a guy with good macro doing this has way more crap than I do, despite doing exactly the same thing! I should improve my macro!"
which is why my current yabot practice is a macro-oriented open. i've got a killer early pressure/all-in down fairly tight, which requires good macro and micro (hitting all your queen injects, and producing lings when there's larvae sitting around, is still macro).
now its on to a tight universal macro oriented open.
Joe's Stream.
Yeah, this is actually a good point. I've played guitar for years, and when I start teaching new students, I ask them what they think the difference is between a 'good' and 'great' guitar player is.
They'll start saying 'Oh it's scales and fancy fast speed runs and oh mannnn', but I tell them the only main difference between being good and great, is how solid are they on their bad day.
Anyone can have an amazing day, or an amazing show, but a true test of skill is consistency, and the ability to make your quality great on a universal level.
I'm trying to take this mindset into SC2, but it's touuuggghhh
Yes. But if you can't macro in a peaceful setting (more specifically, you don't know what your timings are or your composition looks like with ideal macro) you have no hope of macroing in a real game. Furthermore, without that experience, you have no way to how close your are to your ideal macro state to be able to improve.
Build orders develop naturally from good macro: build out of every building, don't get supply blocked, build other buildings towards your end goal as you can, expand when it is safe to do so
Why is it 9 pylon, 13 gate? Because 9 pylon allows you to have close to continuous probe production without getting supply blocked during your opening. The different gateway timings are significant because of probe production as well 10 gate means you're going to miss a cycle of probe production, 12 gate means you'll have a small bump during probe production, and 13 or 14 gate allows for continuous probe production while you get your gateway up.
Eventually, knowing when you throw each of your buildings down in your opening is important to avoid macro bumps - but those timings develop because you're optimizing your plan execution.
My next order of business is to take it on ladder, then learn how to scout. I need to know exactly what I need to be looking for while I scout, and what specific things would mean. I feel that if I can properly read what my opponent is doing, while keeping my macro my main priority, I can get out of Bronze within a month or so.
Here's hoping!
9rax repaer was so fun/
This is the other part of BO. If you practice a build order you can execute it without thinking about it too much. If you can execute it without thinking too much about it, you can do other stuff with your scouting worker/overlord.
If you're constantly looking up "Ok in a second I'll have enough for a rax/gate/pool", that takes more brain power than having done the build a number of times and knowing when you need to. Most people have a build order, they may just not think of it that way.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Not to discourage scouting, because it is a skill you should learn - if only to spot early pressure/rush builds, but you don't need to scout to get out of bronze. If you macro well, you'll even beat most cheesers because bronze level cheese isn't executed well enough to beat a solid opening. Silver and gold level cheesers are likely to be more trouble.
My advice: do practice scouting and keeping your build together in the early game, but just macro hard and be aggressive. Most bronze level players rely on a "trick" or "power unit" to win - like DTs, mass void ray, cloak banshees, mutalisks, ect - so solid aggression in your can just straight up win you a lot of games there because they tend to try to tech too fast without macroing anything else. The other major strategy in bronze is cheese - which, again, is usually too sloppy to use against good macro. Lastly, you'll play other players like you - but you'll win if you have better macro.
welcome to protoss?
oh hell no
and I was actually excited for those matches too! god damn it.
well guess i won't be watching it then...
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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I watched this new guy's casting, MatronStarcraft. He's a pretty top-notch analytical caster but he never, EVER gets excited.
Big deciding clash in the center of the map between max food armies? Same tone of voice he uses to describe worker scouting patterns.
you can do this with zerg though because aside from hatchery, gas, and pool timing, zerg doesn't really have any non-allin BOs.
I'm pretty famous in my circle of friends for never scouting. Scouting with drones? Fuck that. Who needs that? I'll usually just hover my overlord over their natural. And once I have a few lings out, I'll run one up the ramp. But before that? Fuck no.
When it was over, I just kind of sighed and shook my head.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
yeah this is pretty much what i'm going to do.
whose fucking retarded idea was it to let her cast?
there must have been dozens of people lining up to cast that shit.
you know you're scraping the bottom of the proverbial barrel when you ask kellymilkies to do it.