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Which War film shows War?
Altalicious
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
This is the kind of question that in Britain we would usually suspect to be a "Walt" enquiry - i.e. from someone with a bit of a military fetish but no experience, who pretends to be something he isn't. But bear with me until the end of this next paragraph.
War still intrigues people - either in practice or theory - and has done so for millenia. Even for those who have no interest, it becomes a pressing subject if it ends up on their doorstep, as happens with predictable regularity around the world. Yet aside from our Armed Forces, much of Western society is increasingly divorced from the realities of conflict. At the same time, war films are unfailingly popular, and more than any other form of art are increasingly capable of conveying some of the realities of war, even if it's only the visual and audio experience of a round passing close to your head, or seeing someone's limb blown off. For a population without any actual experience, these films are often the only reference point for popular opinions on War and all the decisions and attitudes towards starting, waging, ending, promoting or avoiding it. These are big decisions. So it's not a bad question to ask: which films get it right?
First, some caveats. No film is going to fully convey the experience of combat or war. That is as impossible as conveying the exhaustion of a marathon runner just from watching them - you have to do the 26 miles to understand what it feels like. But some are better than others. Second, peoples' experiences will differ due to both their own personalities, where they served, their military ethos, and a hundred other factors, so there is unlikely to be a "definitive" answer. But again, some will be better than others. Third, the type of conflict or war will radically alter one's perception of it - I don't believe that WW2 and Afghanistan are remotely comparable except on the most basic levels. To a large extent, war films will remain reflective of the type of conflict they portray, and this doesn't necessarily extend to all war.
Necessarily, I am mostly interested in responses from those who have actually served, though others are obviously welcome to join the discussion. It seems that PA has a decent enough smattering of people who have served, or are still serving, though the skewing towards recent experience from Iraq and Afghanistan (like my own) will inevitably bias the answer.
I'm also guessing that this will take two forms. First, who did you most identify with as the central character of most war films out there. Second, if anything, which film managed to get the actual experience right - or as close to it as is possible.
So, hit me. Were you...
____________
...rudderless neophyte Charlie Sheen in Platoon...testosterone-monkey Anthony Swofford in Jarhead..........
...that keen 2Lt that Hanks's kid played in Band of Brothers......
Perhaps we even have some Sgt Barnes-es or.................Colonel Kilgore's, though hopefully not too many.
Did you somehow manage to survive being a Pte Pyle?
And what did your war look like?
CASEVAC in contact?_________________________________________Apocalyptic destruction?
Downtime in a FOB?________________________________________________________________Like being on exercise?
My own answer is below:
I quite surprised myself when, thinking about this question out in Afghan one time, the answer I came up with was "Full Metal Jacket". That helmet captures what originally I never quite noticed in the film, but I now look at as the central point - Joker is like two parallel minds, one which wants to get some and be "the first kid on my street to get a confirmed kill", and the other which sees the bullshit, idiocy and often hypocrisy of the war and the military system. But this isn't a tension which ever gets resolved - he is both at the same time. That is a genius observation about war and the military. Quite possibly I like this largely because it pretty closely reflects my own experience, but I also think it reflects the experience of many soldiers today who have joined up voluntarily and in the knowledge that they will be sent out to fight, but don't always buy into everything the military is selling.
Though relatively brief, the actual depiction of conflict and patrolling - the extended scene at the end when they are in contact from the tank strike through being pinned by the sniper - is pretty spot on. But again, I recognise that this is specific to my experience of the past decade's counterinsurgency campaigns, and would not relate to the beaches of Normandy or the trenches of Ypres.
My runner-up would probably be Black Hawk Down, not particularly on the personal level this time (though some of the "why we fight" stuff rings true, I can't quite connect with the more American, gung-ho ethos), but because its depiction of chaos and being under unrelenting, heavy contact is pretty spectacular. Its portrayal of the steady degradation of the blokes over a 24 hour period, the constant "no plan survives contact" occurances which get them deeper into shit, and little details like getting hot casings down your shirt are all spot on. Full Metal Jacket gives a better general feel of what 95% of my experiences have been like on operations, but Black Hawk Down shows that last 5% of full-on, ally war stories which soldiers like to live off in the pub.
On the opposite end of the scale, my 'worst' war film would be The Thin Red Line. Whatever war looks like, what it is not is a self-congratulatory luvvie 'tone poem' for which the ejaculate from its intellectual masturbation is essentially: "Soldiers are either self-loathing warmongers, unimaginative box-tickers, or closet hippies. And they all think in iambic pentameter laced with regional American accents".
War still intrigues people - either in practice or theory - and has done so for millenia. Even for those who have no interest, it becomes a pressing subject if it ends up on their doorstep, as happens with predictable regularity around the world. Yet aside from our Armed Forces, much of Western society is increasingly divorced from the realities of conflict. At the same time, war films are unfailingly popular, and more than any other form of art are increasingly capable of conveying some of the realities of war, even if it's only the visual and audio experience of a round passing close to your head, or seeing someone's limb blown off. For a population without any actual experience, these films are often the only reference point for popular opinions on War and all the decisions and attitudes towards starting, waging, ending, promoting or avoiding it. These are big decisions. So it's not a bad question to ask: which films get it right?
First, some caveats. No film is going to fully convey the experience of combat or war. That is as impossible as conveying the exhaustion of a marathon runner just from watching them - you have to do the 26 miles to understand what it feels like. But some are better than others. Second, peoples' experiences will differ due to both their own personalities, where they served, their military ethos, and a hundred other factors, so there is unlikely to be a "definitive" answer. But again, some will be better than others. Third, the type of conflict or war will radically alter one's perception of it - I don't believe that WW2 and Afghanistan are remotely comparable except on the most basic levels. To a large extent, war films will remain reflective of the type of conflict they portray, and this doesn't necessarily extend to all war.
Necessarily, I am mostly interested in responses from those who have actually served, though others are obviously welcome to join the discussion. It seems that PA has a decent enough smattering of people who have served, or are still serving, though the skewing towards recent experience from Iraq and Afghanistan (like my own) will inevitably bias the answer.
I'm also guessing that this will take two forms. First, who did you most identify with as the central character of most war films out there. Second, if anything, which film managed to get the actual experience right - or as close to it as is possible.
So, hit me. Were you...
____________...rudderless neophyte Charlie Sheen in Platoon...testosterone-monkey Anthony Swofford in Jarhead..........
...that keen 2Lt that Hanks's kid played in Band of Brothers......
Perhaps we even have some Sgt Barnes-es or.................Colonel Kilgore's, though hopefully not too many.
Did you somehow manage to survive being a Pte Pyle?
And what did your war look like?
CASEVAC in contact?_________________________________________Apocalyptic destruction?
Downtime in a FOB?________________________________________________________________Like being on exercise?
My own answer is below:
I quite surprised myself when, thinking about this question out in Afghan one time, the answer I came up with was "Full Metal Jacket". That helmet captures what originally I never quite noticed in the film, but I now look at as the central point - Joker is like two parallel minds, one which wants to get some and be "the first kid on my street to get a confirmed kill", and the other which sees the bullshit, idiocy and often hypocrisy of the war and the military system. But this isn't a tension which ever gets resolved - he is both at the same time. That is a genius observation about war and the military. Quite possibly I like this largely because it pretty closely reflects my own experience, but I also think it reflects the experience of many soldiers today who have joined up voluntarily and in the knowledge that they will be sent out to fight, but don't always buy into everything the military is selling.
Though relatively brief, the actual depiction of conflict and patrolling - the extended scene at the end when they are in contact from the tank strike through being pinned by the sniper - is pretty spot on. But again, I recognise that this is specific to my experience of the past decade's counterinsurgency campaigns, and would not relate to the beaches of Normandy or the trenches of Ypres.
My runner-up would probably be Black Hawk Down, not particularly on the personal level this time (though some of the "why we fight" stuff rings true, I can't quite connect with the more American, gung-ho ethos), but because its depiction of chaos and being under unrelenting, heavy contact is pretty spectacular. Its portrayal of the steady degradation of the blokes over a 24 hour period, the constant "no plan survives contact" occurances which get them deeper into shit, and little details like getting hot casings down your shirt are all spot on. Full Metal Jacket gives a better general feel of what 95% of my experiences have been like on operations, but Black Hawk Down shows that last 5% of full-on, ally war stories which soldiers like to live off in the pub.
On the opposite end of the scale, my 'worst' war film would be The Thin Red Line. Whatever war looks like, what it is not is a self-congratulatory luvvie 'tone poem' for which the ejaculate from its intellectual masturbation is essentially: "Soldiers are either self-loathing warmongers, unimaginative box-tickers, or closet hippies. And they all think in iambic pentameter laced with regional American accents".
Altalicious on
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"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Granted, I still love my job and love being in the military, but I don't look through as rosy colored lenses these days. I have a much more pessimistic expectation of how things are going to be and how they will work out, and I hate that it tends to be true.
"Band of Brothers" was a very good watch, and it really connected with me. I think it does an amazing job of showing the human side of war and how it affects us. I've also been told that "We Were Soldiers" is a highly accurate portrayal of Vietnam, and I empathized with some of the characters.
I would love to see an accurate portrayal of the Korean war, especially having lived there for two years...
Plus the cinematography is excellent.
Just my two cents :P
Mind numbing boredom, massive incompetence, bureaucratic nightmares, disorganization, injustice, foul language.
Not that I've been to war, but this had the right feel.
Otherwise this is just another film appreciation thread, which wasn't quite the point.
Cheers!
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
But, like the two movies that Opium mentions (The Pianist and Hotel Rwanda), it focuses more on the effects those wars had on society around them, and on persons caught up in them.
So yeah, not a great depiction of the war itself, but a good movie based around the war period.
(the movie that is)
"Change the numbers on that Jeep"
So, speaking of other conscripts, I can tell you one movie that doesn't show war (in any sort of reality) though.
Seriously, I can appreciate the effort, sort of, but stay the fuck away from this wreck. Pearl Harbor and Starship Troopers probably have more to do with reality.
That was the first one that sprung to mind. Amazing film, depressing as fuck. It'll suck the romance out of...well, out of being a Russian child soldier in WW2.
Being a Belarusian is pretty awful for that time period. You go from bloody Polish occupation to Soviet collectivization to bloody German occupation.
That being said, it's an excellent film, and I usually hate that sort of "trippy" direction in films.
Sorry to inject more off topic opinion into this thread, but, man, that was a terrible film.
Having only played paintball, I have to give mad props to soldiers for being able to aim at all ever. Running 100 feet and then even trying to look around straight is hard enough. Trying to level the sights of your gun becomes a feat. Surely physical training is part of the key, but even then, tough stuff.
I went to just plain surrendering people, usually not an option in real war situations, whenever I was behind or on the side of them and they didn't see me.
but they're listening to every word I say
I thought it was an entertaining movie. I mean it was about a duel, not the war.
This is second-hand of course so take it with a grain of salt.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
- Pacific Theater: The Pacific, Flags of Our Fathers, Letters from Iwo Jima. Flags of our Fathers for early show casing of the growing divide between service members and civilians, treatment of returning veterans, how only dicks consider themselves heroes. These 3 really epitomizes the notion, "The heroes are the ones who died".
- European: Band of Brothers, The opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan. Saving Private Ryan because that intensity from the word go, the fear but the people around who are calm as shit directing traffic. Band of Brothers, because it just did so many things right.
If I had to pick a particular film/series from this war, it'd have to be the Pacific. Band of brothers is great and all, but you see so much upper echelon stuff. The Pacific is literally, the grunts view of the war. If you read the books the Pacific is based on, it nails all of it perfectly. The perception, the racism, the hatred, the intensity, the grotesqueness, the horror, everything.
Vietnam
- Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket. Apocalypse now because there are really groups in the military who are that bat shit insane (The CAV officer). Full Metal Jacket, because if we where left to our own devices without command, it'd be lord of the flies all over the place. But the ending scene of Full Metal Jacket, when they're walking away singing cadence, just hits it for me.
Iraq 1
- While I really, really dislike the film, Jarhead. The scene of the Highway of death is just, god damn. Seeing that the wreckage is still around in Iraq also has a profound affect on one's mental facilities.
Somali Conflict
- Black Hawk Down (The military developed powder to specifically stop arterial bleeding because of Black Hawk Down. Pour it into the wound and it cauterizes everything: while it stops the bleeding, it creates a horrible mess of a plug that needs to be cleaned out completely). But you see a bit of everything in this film: The intense rivalry between Rangers and Delta, the crushing weight of the bureaucracy of the military, how heroes are made (those 2 snipers requested to aid the down chopper pilot 3 times before being allowed to go), and Bana's Delta quote at the end, "some of our guys are still out there" really solidify's what it's like to be in a tight knit group: You'd do anything for each other, you're family.
Afghanistan
- Restrepo This is almost unfair, because it's a documentary, but it nails it perfectly. The complacency, the normalcy, what it's like to be shell shocked, what it's liked to be shelled and attacked everyday, what it's like to have incompetent leaders, and what it's like to see the loss of life.
Iraq 2
- With out a doubt, Generation Kill. Nothing else has come close, not even Hurt Locker. Hurt Locker may deal with PTSD, but it's portrayl of the war was grossly inaccurate. Generation Kill nails it spot on, from the language and attitudes, to the bureaucracy and layers of retardation.
Edit2: I hate "The Thin Red Line". That movie just seems so lazy, such a masturbation to itself, just...ugh. It made me, for the longest time, refuse to watch things with Sean Penn in it, until I saw Mystic River and Milk.
I really quite liked it too, but it would be out of place here - it's not the same sort of war movie as the others, it never pretends that it's a story about an ordinary soldier, but is closer to something out of a western (with the whole story about the story being part of the story thrown in as well). I think it does what it sets out to quite well - but that isn't to send some message about War and what it's like to be part of that.
No personal experience to share, but this movie seemed different than other war movies I have watched. Filmed from the inside of a tank, for one.
Comments?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0
I see and hear the best and worst in this video.
Pff, its not like we can verify the stories of the people who have actually seen war. I take the internet with a grain of salt.
Without the comedy of course.
True. Armadillo was good too, though not as good as Restrepo in my opinion.
I identify with 1LT Fick and CPL Person from Generation Kill. As a Radio Telephone Operator (like CPL Person) I had to battle track and keep my LTs apprised of the situation, and shoot down their frequently terrible ideas (even though doing so usually got me in trouble like 1LT Fick) that they had due to having less time in service than I, and being over eager to please our CO. I also loved making jokes over the radio (and our other forms of commo).
I can't really bring myself to say good. Worthwhile seems appropriate.
Sweet :^:
Gunner Palace, Restrepo, anything in that kind of category....those movies were PHENOMENAL. I have no doubt that they are an as accurate slice of life for the war at that time, for those people, as is possible. I've watched both of the two named, haven't seen Generation Kill, but they both struck a chord with me. Gunner Palace I saw before going to Iraq, and I will say that it's pretty damn solid. Yes, folks are generally no longer living like that, but the day to day is always going to be spot on.
Restrepo....I haven't been to Afghanistan, but my friends who've been have said it's really damn accurate.