pvz is an interesting follow up to my point, hitting a timing right can be the easiest of victories, hitting a timing wrong can be utter demolition, especially early game timings
I'm not sure that that anecdote is exactly reinforcing the point you're making.
Oops!
What I meant to say.
Is that sometimes I pretty much alternate 10-1, 1-12, etc, with my laddering.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
0
tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
By the way, I think there's a little bit of ZvP metagame going on by the TSL Zerg players, if recent matches are any indicator. Let me see if I can lay it out:
The new GSL maps are much larger and have relatively safe home territory (except for TDA) to expand on. Well and good; this encourages players (especially Zerg) to expand quickly, even FE, and macro up for a more interesting midgame. Protoss and Terran players thus expect Zerg to quick-hatch and feel pressured to expand relatively quickly themselves, so that their economy can keep pace.
What we've seen a couple of times now is that TSL's Zerg players are using this assumption to go with one or two-hatch one-base all-ins, hitting that 6-8 minute window where an FEing Protoss player has their nexus up, but has only a forge, core, and one gate (with more gates coming, but not ready). Fruitdealer's method is the quick nydus speedling bust; Revival tried to go mass roach. Both strategies worked very well, catching the opponent at a very weak point (but FD's method was better and Revival's targetting was atrocious). It's definitely an 'all-in' play, but I almost want to say that it's the _right_ play, because after that initial scout the Protoss player has no idea what you're up to until a flying unit hits the field.
Addendum: Of course, FD's nydus play wouldn't have worked nearly as well if Genius had spread his pylons around a little better. But again, it does take advantage of the mindset of 'how many pylons will he have at this point, and where is he likely to put them'? Definitely risky, but calculated.
Agreed, this was definitely a case of the players creating the outcome and not the matchup/builds.
Revival didn't play well, but HuK also deserves credit for exploiting Revival's mistakes absolutely perfectly.
In game 3 Revival should've been hitting HuK from every angel instead of trying to contain a 2 base toss with a roach army. Seriously, who thinks that will work? 2 Base toss can easily get immortals or templar out.
By the way, I think there's a little bit of ZvP metagame going on by the TSL Zerg players, if recent matches are any indicator. Let me see if I can lay it out:
The new GSL maps are much larger and have relatively safe home territory (except for TDA) to expand on. Well and good; this encourages players (especially Zerg) to expand quickly, even FE, and macro up for a more interesting midgame. Protoss and Terran players thus expect Zerg to quick-hatch and feel pressured to expand relatively quickly themselves, so that their economy can keep pace.
What we've seen a couple of times now is that TSL's Zerg players are using this assumption to go with one or two-hatch one-base all-ins, hitting that 6-8 minute window where an FEing Protoss player has their nexus up, but has only a forge, core, and one gate (with more gates coming, but not ready). Fruitdealer's method is the quick nydus speedling bust; Revival tried to go mass roach. Both strategies worked very well, catching the opponent at a very weak point (but FD's method was better and Revival's targetting was atrocious). It's definitely an 'all-in' play, but I almost want to say that it's the _right_ play, because after that initial scout the Protoss player has no idea what you're up to until a flying unit hits the field.
Addendum: Of course, FD's nydus play wouldn't have worked nearly as well if Genius had spread his pylons around a little better. But again, it does take advantage of the mindset of 'how many pylons will he have at this point, and where is he likely to put them'? Definitely risky, but calculated.
Next thing you know, zergs will be stimming banelings and zerglings.
Jutranjo on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Agreed, this was definitely a case of the players creating the outcome and not the matchup/builds.
Revival didn't play well, but HuK also deserves credit for exploiting Revival's mistakes absolutely perfectly.
In game 3 Revival should've been hitting HuK from every angel instead of trying to contain a 2 base toss with a roach army. Seriously, who thinks that will work? 2 Base toss can easily get immortals or templar out.
Immortals will thrash Roaches. Templar are the wrong choice.
Agreed, this was definitely a case of the players creating the outcome and not the matchup/builds.
Revival didn't play well, but HuK also deserves credit for exploiting Revival's mistakes absolutely perfectly.
In game 3 Revival should've been hitting HuK from every angel instead of trying to contain a 2 base toss with a roach army. Seriously, who thinks that will work? 2 Base toss can easily get immortals or templar out.
I felt that Revival's biggest flaw was not getting hydras at all. I know Zergs are always worries about toss "forcing" hydras, but hydras also force Colossus. Colossus balls are immobile and require a lot of support. If he wanted to contain Huk, he needed hydras. Then he could have attacked Huk's main with mutas or lings or drops or nydus whenever he left the base and he could have been on like 6 bases + Hive before the deathball came out.
ed
By that I mean hydra-roach deals with everything the toss can come out with that doesn't have a Colossus given equal control/positioning.
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
it is the right play. zerg can produce a lot of units at that point (after both races FE) and to not use that advantage is silly. granted it goes against the repeated way that people say to play the race but it actually wins games so
tyler is streaming btw I think he's watching iem replays
also on the metagame:
Toss and Terran can proxy or just even send in an early timing attack and catch a zerg off guard though.
Zerg can't just blindly assume all FEs are safe.
T and P don't need to be so greedy though. Both races can literarily run 20 min games on a single base with constant harass.
also on the metagame: Toss and Terran can proxy or just even send in an early timing attack and catch a zerg off guard though.
Zerg can't just blindly assume all FEs are safe.
T and P don't need to be so greedy though. Both races can literarily run 20 min games on a single base with constant harass.
This here is why i get hallucinate before expo on 3 gate expand, if a zerg tries a sneeky third thinking i cant push i cut the probes and take care of it knowing he has absolutely nothing, from there the game is formulaic. On occasion too you will catch a zerg going 2 base quick lair to get mutas or hydra rush, in that case you can just kill them with 2 rounds of warp on 3 gates.
Agreed, this was definitely a case of the players creating the outcome and not the matchup/builds.
Revival didn't play well, but HuK also deserves credit for exploiting Revival's mistakes absolutely perfectly.
In game 3 Revival should've been hitting HuK from every angel instead of trying to contain a 2 base toss with a roach army. Seriously, who thinks that will work? 2 Base toss can easily get immortals or templar out.
I felt that Revival's biggest flaw was not getting hydras at all. I know Zergs are always worries about toss "forcing" hydras, but hydras also force Colossus. Colossus balls are immobile and require a lot of support. If he wanted to contain Huk, he needed hydras. Then he could have attacked Huk's main with mutas or lings or drops or nydus whenever he left the base and he could have been on like 6 bases + Hive before the deathball came out.
ed
By that I mean hydra-roach deals with everything the toss can come out with that doesn't have a Colossus given equal control/positioning.
I agree that Revival made some shitty decisions in the end, but it's important to remember that Huk had plenty of templar with storm throughout the game. The obvious tech switches that would have crushed stalker+immortal (lings/hydra) would have been very weak to storm.
Agreed, this was definitely a case of the players creating the outcome and not the matchup/builds.
Revival didn't play well, but HuK also deserves credit for exploiting Revival's mistakes absolutely perfectly.
In game 3 Revival should've been hitting HuK from every angel instead of trying to contain a 2 base toss with a roach army. Seriously, who thinks that will work? 2 Base toss can easily get immortals or templar out.
I felt that Revival's biggest flaw was not getting hydras at all. I know Zergs are always worries about toss "forcing" hydras, but hydras also force Colossus. Colossus balls are immobile and require a lot of support. If he wanted to contain Huk, he needed hydras. Then he could have attacked Huk's main with mutas or lings or drops or nydus whenever he left the base and he could have been on like 6 bases + Hive before the deathball came out.
ed
By that I mean hydra-roach deals with everything the toss can come out with that doesn't have a Colossus given equal control/positioning.
I agree that Revival made some shitty decisions in the end, but it's important to remember that Huk had plenty of templar with storm throughout the game. The obvious tech switches that would have crushed stalker+immortal (lings/hydra) would have been very weak to storm.
Indeed, what he needed to do is actually pressure HuK. While a 2-base contain is certainly tense, it's actually not such a big deal for a Toss or even Terran vs Zerg, both races are capable of producing very very strong armies out of those 2 bases which can be used to take a third.
If Revival had really done ANYTHING to put HuK on more of a back foot (flank, muta harass, nydus, etc), really just SOMETHING to dictate the matchup in any way more than "You're stuck on those two bases for now", then the outcome would've been different.
Hell, even a well timed 300 food push with those roaches/lings would've worked. He would've lost his army, sure, but HuK can't reinforce nearly as fast as he can.
Immortals will thrash Roaches. Templar are the wrong choice.
I didn't mention was a roach/ling contain, not just roaches, hence the need for storm.
EDIT:
Separate but relevant, I wonder what the worker counts were in that game. There were several maxed vs maxed fights, but HuK undoubtedly had fewer workers. That probably make an already inherently weaker Zerg max army even more handicapped. Huk's army may have been 20 food bigger given how many bases the Zerg had saturated.
Posts
Not super huge in this country but compared to many european countries and Korea it's pretty big.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
He's only a little shorter than I am.
Patch is live!
Patch is live!
Patch is live!
It was worthless, something about single player games not loading or something.
I've been there.
I went like 10-1, then 12-1, then 10-1.
e: Whoops.
I'm not sure that that anecdote is exactly reinforcing the point you're making.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
So THAT'S cool.
I'm blaming revival
That would be a fair assessment, to be totally honest.
When I saw he was going for units first and not the forge in game 2, my jaw dropped open and stayed there for the rest of the game.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Oops!
What I meant to say.
Is that sometimes I pretty much alternate 10-1, 1-12, etc, with my laddering.
The new GSL maps are much larger and have relatively safe home territory (except for TDA) to expand on. Well and good; this encourages players (especially Zerg) to expand quickly, even FE, and macro up for a more interesting midgame. Protoss and Terran players thus expect Zerg to quick-hatch and feel pressured to expand relatively quickly themselves, so that their economy can keep pace.
What we've seen a couple of times now is that TSL's Zerg players are using this assumption to go with one or two-hatch one-base all-ins, hitting that 6-8 minute window where an FEing Protoss player has their nexus up, but has only a forge, core, and one gate (with more gates coming, but not ready). Fruitdealer's method is the quick nydus speedling bust; Revival tried to go mass roach. Both strategies worked very well, catching the opponent at a very weak point (but FD's method was better and Revival's targetting was atrocious). It's definitely an 'all-in' play, but I almost want to say that it's the _right_ play, because after that initial scout the Protoss player has no idea what you're up to until a flying unit hits the field.
Addendum: Of course, FD's nydus play wouldn't have worked nearly as well if Genius had spread his pylons around a little better. But again, it does take advantage of the mindset of 'how many pylons will he have at this point, and where is he likely to put them'? Definitely risky, but calculated.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Agreed, this was definitely a case of the players creating the outcome and not the matchup/builds.
Revival didn't play well, but HuK also deserves credit for exploiting Revival's mistakes absolutely perfectly.
In game 3 Revival should've been hitting HuK from every angel instead of trying to contain a 2 base toss with a roach army. Seriously, who thinks that will work? 2 Base toss can easily get immortals or templar out.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
Next thing you know, zergs will be stimming banelings and zerglings.
Immortals will thrash Roaches. Templar are the wrong choice.
I felt that Revival's biggest flaw was not getting hydras at all. I know Zergs are always worries about toss "forcing" hydras, but hydras also force Colossus. Colossus balls are immobile and require a lot of support. If he wanted to contain Huk, he needed hydras. Then he could have attacked Huk's main with mutas or lings or drops or nydus whenever he left the base and he could have been on like 6 bases + Hive before the deathball came out.
ed
By that I mean hydra-roach deals with everything the toss can come out with that doesn't have a Colossus given equal control/positioning.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
tyler is streaming btw I think he's watching iem replays
also on the metagame:
Toss and Terran can proxy or just even send in an early timing attack and catch a zerg off guard though.
Zerg can't just blindly assume all FEs are safe.
T and P don't need to be so greedy though. Both races can literarily run 20 min games on a single base with constant harass.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
This here is why i get hallucinate before expo on 3 gate expand, if a zerg tries a sneeky third thinking i cant push i cut the probes and take care of it knowing he has absolutely nothing, from there the game is formulaic. On occasion too you will catch a zerg going 2 base quick lair to get mutas or hydra rush, in that case you can just kill them with 2 rounds of warp on 3 gates.
Hallucinate is baller as shit
I agree that Revival made some shitty decisions in the end, but it's important to remember that Huk had plenty of templar with storm throughout the game. The obvious tech switches that would have crushed stalker+immortal (lings/hydra) would have been very weak to storm.
he is the bon diggity
I have always heard bomb diggity.
http://www.justin.tv/liquidtyler
I get the feeling I need a proxy.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Indeed, what he needed to do is actually pressure HuK. While a 2-base contain is certainly tense, it's actually not such a big deal for a Toss or even Terran vs Zerg, both races are capable of producing very very strong armies out of those 2 bases which can be used to take a third.
If Revival had really done ANYTHING to put HuK on more of a back foot (flank, muta harass, nydus, etc), really just SOMETHING to dictate the matchup in any way more than "You're stuck on those two bases for now", then the outcome would've been different.
Hell, even a well timed 300 food push with those roaches/lings would've worked. He would've lost his army, sure, but HuK can't reinforce nearly as fast as he can.
I didn't mention was a roach/ling contain, not just roaches, hence the need for storm.
EDIT:
Separate but relevant, I wonder what the worker counts were in that game. There were several maxed vs maxed fights, but HuK undoubtedly had fewer workers. That probably make an already inherently weaker Zerg max army even more handicapped. Huk's army may have been 20 food bigger given how many bases the Zerg had saturated.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
I feel like something may be blocked. (That's not an excuse for GOM, though, I want my VODs.)
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
And listening to his analysis of these games is really interesting.
This is what happens when I try to watch at work or when I'm connected to my company's VPN.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+