God damnit Idra you dont half fuck up royal sometimes, its like he decides no matter what happens he has lost and just move commands his army sometimes.
well idras out and i dont wanna watch pvp and zvz!
why the hell aren't you guys watching GSL?
I'm not even remotely interested in watching IEM vods after seeing the results and how badly the Western gamers were, in the main, demolished by Squirtle and Ace.
Ace did demolish, yes.
But you do know that Squirtle only got 3rd, right? And he lost a lot of games and then had to fight through 4 tie-breaker rounds to get third place?
Socke and sjow played really well in those tie-breakers. It was just a matter of who managed to stay the most focused after playing for so long.
pretty much, squirtle was on thin ice honestly.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Squirtle and Ace aren't even the best that Korea has to offer by a long way.
I think the TSL is going to be an eyeopener to why the NASL isn't going to be as cool as everyone thinks it will be.
Well according to the thread posted last night only 2 applicants have applied for NASL, they overestimate how easy it is for teams to poke up $1250 in 10 days, especially given half the good players on NA are not on teams and a quater who are dont have heavy sponsorship.
Koreans are not much better at SC2 than the best westerners.
Squirtle knocked out, what, 3 code S players in the GSTL? Doesn't get much better than him.
And then 2 zerg players from the west man-handled him, I mean come on have a little self-respect.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
I'm losing so much respect for IdrA every day.
He's so arrogant and whiny.
He's like the worst kind of pretentious combined with my 6 year old cousin.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
Well I'm not really talking about how the NASL is over-regulating things when they are an up and comer who can't really afford to be overly draconian.
I'm mainly just talking about the fact that, at best, Western progamers are about equal with Korean progamers (DISCLAIMER: when I refer to Korean progamers I am referring to those who live and train in Korea, not those of Korean nationality. Nationality is irrelevant.).
As time goes on, any gap that may or may not be there right now is only going to get larger because Korean Starcraft training methods and structures are demonstrably more effective than the Western setup.
I mean, just look at how much better HuK has become in the last two months. If you watch his stream from now and then, the results aren't even close. He's massively better, in every way, especially in speed.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
Okay the headphones look silly but they're an apm meter.
That is pretty cool.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Well I'm not really talking about how the NASL is over-regulating things when they are an up and comer who can't really afford to be overly draconian.
I'm mainly just talking about the fact that, at best, Western progamers are about equal with Korean progamers (DISCLAIMER: when I refer to Korean progamers I am referring to those who live and train in Korea, not those of Korean nationality. Nationality is irrelevant.).
As time goes on, any gap that may or may not be there right now is only going to get larger because Korean Starcraft training methods and structures are demonstrably more effective than the Western setup.
They were more effective for BW. SC2 is a different beast.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Well I'm not really talking about how the NASL is over-regulating things when they are an up and comer who can't really afford to be overly draconian.
I'm mainly just talking about the fact that, at best, Western progamers are about equal with Korean progamers (DISCLAIMER: when I refer to Korean progamers I am referring to those who live and train in Korea, not those of Korean nationality. Nationality is irrelevant.).
As time goes on, any gap that may or may not be there right now is only going to get larger because Korean Starcraft training methods and structures are demonstrably more effective than the Western setup.
When i was playing pro evolution soccer at home everyday i got real good, when i moved to college and played with a friend i got, like 5% better. I assume this is a perfect example of what you are referring too?
As time goes on, any gap that may or may not be there right now is only going to get larger because Korean Starcraft training methods and structures are demonstrably more effective than the Western setup.
North America alone has more than twice as many active players, let alone Europe, SA, SEA.
That's basically all it takes to have more and stronger players in the western world; it's a numbers game and Korea has a dramatically smaller, less interested, less creative talent pool.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Well I'm not really talking about how the NASL is over-regulating things when they are an up and comer who can't really afford to be overly draconian.
I'm mainly just talking about the fact that, at best, Western progamers are about equal with Korean progamers (DISCLAIMER: when I refer to Korean progamers I am referring to those who live and train in Korea, not those of Korean nationality. Nationality is irrelevant.).
As time goes on, any gap that may or may not be there right now is only going to get larger because Korean Starcraft training methods and structures are demonstrably more effective than the Western setup.
They were more effective for BW. SC2 is a different beast.
Basic logic fail. Its not about the game. Its about the environment you're playing in. In that environment, they live, they breathe, they are Starcraft. They don't live in their own apartment and maybe play six or seven hours a day but still have day to day things to think about like paying rent, buying groceries, or anything like that.
I may be exaggerating slightly, but I don't think its a stretch to imagine a typical day in a Korean team house would go something like this
wake up
get in some games before breakfast while everyone else is waking up
breakfast with the team (maybe they eat alone but ill assume htey eat together), discuss strategies and ideas over the meal
try the ideas and strategies out, refine
practise builds until lunch
have lunch, same again, talk about experiences in the games, suggest changes, collaborate, ask for help on something specific
afternoon practise
and so on
and thats just such an effective training regimen. At least 70-80% of their time awake is spent thinking about or playing Starcraft, and its just a vastly superior training regimen. You could replace Starcraft with any other activity and if you trained in the same way it would be just as much better than other training methods would be.
As time goes on, any gap that may or may not be there right now is only going to get larger because Korean Starcraft training methods and structures are demonstrably more effective than the Western setup.
North America alone has more than twice as many active players, let alone Europe, SA, SEA.
That's basically all it takes to have more and stronger players in the western world; it's a numbers game and Korea has a dramatically smaller, less interested, less creative talent pool.
The USA also has a more spread out base of players, who primarily (there are exceptions) do not live with large numbers of other progamers, so a lot of practise is fundamentally done alone, and I think you're discounting the advantages of not having to worry about day to day living management like housing and food (the ST team house, at least, has a chef!) and being able to focus entirely on practise.
As time goes on, any gap that may or may not be there right now is only going to get larger because Korean Starcraft training methods and structures are demonstrably more effective than the Western setup.
North America alone has more than twice as many active players, let alone Europe, SA, SEA.
That's basically all it takes to have more and stronger players in the western world; it's a numbers game and Korea has a dramatically smaller, less interested, less creative talent pool.
Numbers only matter if the infrastructure is in place, which it currently is not. Korea will always be ahead when they have team houses and a team mentality.
But that's not a "Korean" thing, that's a "pro house" thing.
There's talk of starting Westerner houses styled the same way.
I just don't think that such a setup as Korea has is viable in the USA.
In Korea, most of the country is oriented around Seoul, and even if you're on the other side of the country, its not that far away to move to a team house. In the USA, its hours and hours by plane from one side of the country to the other, and moving to be in a team house is a much scarier, much more difficult, and much more of a commitment than it is to move to a team house, which I think will discourage a lot of progamers, unless teams start to make it a requirement.
Also, current Western teams are more like clans than really teams. The members live all over the place, interact online I'm sure but thats again more like a clan than a team. They interact as players, not as people, so the closeness isn't there the way it is in Korean teams. There are exceptions in Korea, for example NaDa does not live in the oGs house and I imagine BoxeR does not live in the SlayerS house (given that he's married, I think) but for the most part they all live together.
There are tons of westerners who play full time, talk about the game online with their teammates and friends daily, and knock Koreans out of the western tournaments they visit.
I think y'all are stuck on a Broodwar mindset that thus far has not borne out for SC2 and I doubt that it ever will.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
well it would be to the players benefit... moving a team out to cali near la doesn't seem weird to me.
edit - what do you mean it hasn't borne out? and why is it different for sc2 than bw? it's the same type of environmental difference
Also i was under the impression that NA is starting to lag quite behind EU in terms of quality recently, for whatever reason i dont know but ladder and tournament results are starting to heavily favour European players. Add this to the fact that alot of top NA players have abandoned the NA ladder in favour of the European one because it is more competitive at the top level.
As time goes on, any gap that may or may not be there right now is only going to get larger because Korean Starcraft training methods and structures are demonstrably more effective than the Western setup.
North America alone has more than twice as many active players, let alone Europe, SA, SEA.
That's basically all it takes to have more and stronger players in the western world; it's a numbers game and Korea has a dramatically smaller, less interested, less creative talent pool.
Numbers only matter if the infrastructure is in place, which it currently is not. Korea will always be ahead when they have team houses and a team mentality.
I might be alone in this, but I've started to enjoy the non-korean leagues more than GSL. The Koreans have the game down to a clockwork, it's like every player draws a strat from a hat and the one who was lucky to go for the best all-in against the other guys all-in wins. You're able to guess with great certainty who's going to win after 5 min just based on what all-in they are going for.
With how b.net works is there much use in being in a house, except maybe being able to discuss strats/etc face to face?
Incontrol said he grew to twice the player living a week with Idra and Artosis because they talked sc2, talked strategy and played all day. I really dont think one can understimate the impact of living the game with other people of similar or better skill.
they talk about it on tl and sotg, koreans got better at bw because they lived and breathed it day in and day out, training all day and living in team houses, where as foreigners just play in their spare time between school/uni/work etc mostly by themselves (or with friend, random clan member), and moved that method onto sc2
if that transfers over to other countries they obviously will get better the same way
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
There are tons of westerners who play full time, talk about the game online with their teammates and friends daily, and knock Koreans out of the western tournaments they visit.
I think y'all are stuck on a Broodwar mindset that thus far has not borne out for SC2 and I doubt that it ever will.
Brood War was in exactly the same situation as SC2 is right now, right up until even a couple of years after release. And the Koreans didn't have the advantage of already having infrastructure in place then, either.
Its a different situation, to be sure, but close enough that the parallels are still extremely relevant.
With how b.net works is there much use in being in a house, except maybe being able to discuss strats/etc face to face?
You shrug that last part off like its a small thing. You're still fundamentally missing the point. The Koreans will improve by leaps and bounds. There is a big difference between playing a game hardcore seriously (Like American and European progamers) and living and breathing that game (Like those within the Korean system).
Until America and/or Europe has a setup of team houses with close-knit teams the way Korea does, the gap will steadily get larger. Perhaps slowly, perhaps quickly, but it is inevitable.
And while I don't think team houses in the West are impossible, they are improbably due to logistical constraints.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Posts
Kpop is Kpop.
Koreans seem to like it. Non-Koreans, not so much.
Heathen
I think the TSL is going to be an eyeopener to why the NASL isn't going to be as cool as everyone thinks it will be.
pretty much, squirtle was on thin ice honestly.
That's defeatist talk, boy.
Well according to the thread posted last night only 2 applicants have applied for NASL, they overestimate how easy it is for teams to poke up $1250 in 10 days, especially given half the good players on NA are not on teams and a quater who are dont have heavy sponsorship.
"I already talked about this on my show."
Squirtle knocked out, what, 3 code S players in the GSTL? Doesn't get much better than him.
And then 2 zerg players from the west man-handled him, I mean come on have a little self-respect.
He's so arrogant and whiny.
He's like the worst kind of pretentious combined with my 6 year old cousin.
I'm mainly just talking about the fact that, at best, Western progamers are about equal with Korean progamers (DISCLAIMER: when I refer to Korean progamers I am referring to those who live and train in Korea, not those of Korean nationality. Nationality is irrelevant.).
As time goes on, any gap that may or may not be there right now is only going to get larger because Korean Starcraft training methods and structures are demonstrably more effective than the Western setup.
I mean, just look at how much better HuK has become in the last two months. If you watch his stream from now and then, the results aren't even close. He's massively better, in every way, especially in speed.
That is pretty cool.
They were more effective for BW. SC2 is a different beast.
hell yeah, high 5
had the sound going for both too. it was pretty wild.
but now jinro is playing, and he is my favorite player hands down.
When i was playing pro evolution soccer at home everyday i got real good, when i moved to college and played with a friend i got, like 5% better. I assume this is a perfect example of what you are referring too?
North America alone has more than twice as many active players, let alone Europe, SA, SEA.
That's basically all it takes to have more and stronger players in the western world; it's a numbers game and Korea has a dramatically smaller, less interested, less creative talent pool.
the nasl could, ideally, be part of what starts foreign players closing the gap on the koreans
that's what I'm hoping for
Basic logic fail. Its not about the game. Its about the environment you're playing in. In that environment, they live, they breathe, they are Starcraft. They don't live in their own apartment and maybe play six or seven hours a day but still have day to day things to think about like paying rent, buying groceries, or anything like that.
I may be exaggerating slightly, but I don't think its a stretch to imagine a typical day in a Korean team house would go something like this
wake up
get in some games before breakfast while everyone else is waking up
breakfast with the team (maybe they eat alone but ill assume htey eat together), discuss strategies and ideas over the meal
try the ideas and strategies out, refine
practise builds until lunch
have lunch, same again, talk about experiences in the games, suggest changes, collaborate, ask for help on something specific
afternoon practise
and so on
and thats just such an effective training regimen. At least 70-80% of their time awake is spent thinking about or playing Starcraft, and its just a vastly superior training regimen. You could replace Starcraft with any other activity and if you trained in the same way it would be just as much better than other training methods would be.
The USA also has a more spread out base of players, who primarily (there are exceptions) do not live with large numbers of other progamers, so a lot of practise is fundamentally done alone, and I think you're discounting the advantages of not having to worry about day to day living management like housing and food (the ST team house, at least, has a chef!) and being able to focus entirely on practise.
There's talk of starting Westerner houses styled the same way.
Numbers only matter if the infrastructure is in place, which it currently is not. Korea will always be ahead when they have team houses and a team mentality.
I just don't think that such a setup as Korea has is viable in the USA.
In Korea, most of the country is oriented around Seoul, and even if you're on the other side of the country, its not that far away to move to a team house. In the USA, its hours and hours by plane from one side of the country to the other, and moving to be in a team house is a much scarier, much more difficult, and much more of a commitment than it is to move to a team house, which I think will discourage a lot of progamers, unless teams start to make it a requirement.
Also, current Western teams are more like clans than really teams. The members live all over the place, interact online I'm sure but thats again more like a clan than a team. They interact as players, not as people, so the closeness isn't there the way it is in Korean teams. There are exceptions in Korea, for example NaDa does not live in the oGs house and I imagine BoxeR does not live in the SlayerS house (given that he's married, I think) but for the most part they all live together.
I think y'all are stuck on a Broodwar mindset that thus far has not borne out for SC2 and I doubt that it ever will.
edit - what do you mean it hasn't borne out? and why is it different for sc2 than bw? it's the same type of environmental difference
more like
y'dhal
I might be alone in this, but I've started to enjoy the non-korean leagues more than GSL. The Koreans have the game down to a clockwork, it's like every player draws a strat from a hat and the one who was lucky to go for the best all-in against the other guys all-in wins. You're able to guess with great certainty who's going to win after 5 min just based on what all-in they are going for.
I'm of course exaggerating a bit but still.
Incontrol said he grew to twice the player living a week with Idra and Artosis because they talked sc2, talked strategy and played all day. I really dont think one can understimate the impact of living the game with other people of similar or better skill.
if that transfers over to other countries they obviously will get better the same way
Brood War was in exactly the same situation as SC2 is right now, right up until even a couple of years after release. And the Koreans didn't have the advantage of already having infrastructure in place then, either.
Its a different situation, to be sure, but close enough that the parallels are still extremely relevant.
You shrug that last part off like its a small thing. You're still fundamentally missing the point. The Koreans will improve by leaps and bounds. There is a big difference between playing a game hardcore seriously (Like American and European progamers) and living and breathing that game (Like those within the Korean system).
Until America and/or Europe has a setup of team houses with close-knit teams the way Korea does, the gap will steadily get larger. Perhaps slowly, perhaps quickly, but it is inevitable.
And while I don't think team houses in the West are impossible, they are improbably due to logistical constraints.
so good