[WoW] Druids: If only Dorothy had gotten her PvP trinket.

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  • Liquid GhostLiquid Ghost DO YOU HEAR THE VOICES, TOO?! Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    So the armor/health nerfs didn't hurt a whole lot, but I'm more worried about the hit to DPS/threat generation. This could very well wind up affecting more than just druids, I think.

    Liquid Ghost on
  • SpongeCakeSpongeCake Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Apologies to all you Feral dudes out there, but 400% Armour for Moonkin, whooo!

    SpongeCake on
  • FodderFodder Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Not to mention that almost every fucking mob is immune to lacerate anyway...

    Fodder on
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  • mirarantmirarant Registered User
    edited February 2007
    SpongeCake wrote: »
    Apologies to all you Feral dudes out there, but 400% Armour for Moonkin, whooo!

    Congratulations on your minor buff you certainly needed it, unfortunately your lack of an effective aggro reducer still means that you're off spec for raids.

    No I'm not trying to piss you off just saying how things are, hopefully Blizzard will pull their heads out of their asses and see what Moonkins really need.

    mirarant on
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Actually if you run the numbers, the reduction in health and armor is about a 5-10% reduction in survivability. It's a great deal really.

    shadowane on
    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • ToldoToldo But actually, WeegianRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    So our armor, health and DPS output has been nerfed. We need something in return to remain viable.

    Swipe needs to get its threat multiplier back. It was removed when we were "overpowered", and now we sorely need it.

    Lacerate needs to be changed. There are simply too many mobs immune to it.

    Maul needs to generate more aggro.

    Mangle is now... what? An instant maul?

    Toldo on
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Horray for not getting crit by 2k mangles by level 65's anymore D:

    TheCrumblyCracker on
  • jhunter46jhunter46 Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Toldo wrote: »
    So our armor, health and DPS output has been nerfed. We need something in return to remain viable.

    Swipe needs to get its threat multiplier back. It was removed when we were "overpowered", and now we sorely need it.

    Lacerate needs to be changed. There are simply too many mobs immune to it.

    Maul needs to generate more aggro.

    Mangle is now... what? An instant maul?

    No, I wish Mangle was an instant Maul. Maul at least has the static threat addition, I can't find a use for bear mangle outside of increasing the damage to lacerate.

    I can understand wanting to nerf bear damage from a PVP perspective, but this totally breaks bear PVE. I've been playing on the PTR and I'm hard pressed to find a use for Bear Mangle if you're not bleeding a target.

    We used to have low damage + high threat modifiers

    so the changed it to

    higher damage + no threat modifier (white damage threat generated through mangle crits)

    and that's devolved into

    lower damage no threat modifier

    I don't understand the balance there.

    I seem to recall Blue's stating that Druids would be an option for tanking. Did they change their minds?

    I'm just curious to see the logic behind this decision.

    jhunter46 on
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    I'm just curious to see the logic behind this decision.

    I think the devs want the feral tree to focus around the catform as it is the more "hybrid" of the two forms. When DPSing, you can shift out and throw a heal or two, but you can't do that while tanking. And having the feral tree be good for both tanking and DPS at the same time might be a bit of an overkill.

    It's still stupid, though, but that's what I think the devs are thinking in regards to feral druids.

    reVerse on
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Horray for not getting crit by 2k mangles by level 65's anymore D:
    I'm guessing you are a mage or cloth class as on mobs I reach about 1k mangles when I'm by myself. So you're probably just lying and being a douche.

    edit: To add to the conversation with something other than calling a douche a douche, they should make Savage Fury add 10% threat to the bear moves instead of damage. That won't affect pvp at all and allow bears to continue to be viable tanks.

    shadowane on
    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • AngryAngry The glory I had witnessed was just a sleight of handRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    i've been bear mangled for 2.6k..

    the mobs in outlands have extremely high armor ratings, the players don't.

    Angry on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    jhunter46 wrote: »

    I'm just curious to see the logic behind this decision.

    There was logic behind it, I just don't agree with it. The devs specifically wanted to nerf dps, as well as threat generation.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • AngryAngry The glory I had witnessed was just a sleight of handRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    nerfing dps was needed, nerfing the threat generation wasn't. druid was already second string to prot warriors on the fights that mattered. i don't see a need to depreciate their value as tanks.

    Angry on
  • jhunter46jhunter46 Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I'm not sure that I'm going to spec into Mangle if I decide to keep tanking. It's a six second Maul minus the extra threat, how is this still a 41 point talent?

    jhunter46 on
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    I'm not sure that I'm going to spec into Mangle if I decide to keep tanking. It's a six second Maul minus the extra threat, how is this still a 41 point talent?

    Cats?

    Dehumanized on
  • jhunter46jhunter46 Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    So a 41 point talent that only works for half of the tree? That should be lower in the tree or trainable.

    jhunter46 on
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    So a 41 point talent that only works for half of the tree? That should be lower in the tree or trainable.

    There are 41 point talents that don't work at all. They remain as 41 point talents.

    Take a look at Circle of Healing.

    Dehumanized on
  • ToldoToldo But actually, WeegianRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I just came from tanking Steamvault, Sethekk Halls and Shadow Labyrinth. I hope the nerfs won't ruin the fun of tanking, though.

    Toldo on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    So a 41 point talent that only works for half of the tree? That should be lower in the tree or trainable.

    There are 41 point talents that don't work at all. They remain as 41 point talents.

    Take a look at Circle of Healing.

    So one bad design choice justifies other talents being brought down? Hell, warriors sucked right as 2.0 was released, Blizzard ought to have slashed the bonuses of abilities of all classes across the board.
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    I'm not sure that I'm going to spec into Mangle if I decide to keep tanking. It's a six second Maul minus the extra threat, how is this still a 41 point talent?

    Maul doesn't get extra threat anymore.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Septus wrote: »
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    So a 41 point talent that only works for half of the tree? That should be lower in the tree or trainable.

    There are 41 point talents that don't work at all. They remain as 41 point talents.

    Take a look at Circle of Healing.

    So one bad design choice justifies other talents being brought down? Hell, warriors sucked right as 2.0 was released, Blizzard ought to have slashed the bonuses of abilities of all classes across the board.

    I'm mostly just QQing about my own class' poor design... but really, mangle is still a damn useful cat spell and saying it should be trainable just because it's not good for one of the two ways you can use it is a bit over the top.

    My personal opinion on the druid changes, after having talked with a few of our own feral druids and looking at the numbers a bit is that the damage nerf is probably justified... but there needs to be some more threat returned to keep things in order. The mitigation changes? I don't think they were really necessary, but I'm not entirely sure how they'll turn out in actual play.

    If every talent was as bad as Circle of Healing, though...

    Dehumanized on
  • jhunter46jhunter46 Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Septus wrote: »
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    So a 41 point talent that only works for half of the tree? That should be lower in the tree or trainable.

    There are 41 point talents that don't work at all. They remain as 41 point talents.

    Take a look at Circle of Healing.

    So one bad design choice justifies other talents being brought down? Hell, warriors sucked right as 2.0 was released, Blizzard ought to have slashed the bonuses of abilities of all classes across the board.
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    I'm not sure that I'm going to spec into Mangle if I decide to keep tanking. It's a six second Maul minus the extra threat, how is this still a 41 point talent?

    Maul doesn't get extra threat anymore.

    Unless they took it away, Maul generates a static amount of threat, similar to heroic strike.

    jhunter46 on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    Septus wrote: »
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    So a 41 point talent that only works for half of the tree? That should be lower in the tree or trainable.

    There are 41 point talents that don't work at all. They remain as 41 point talents.

    Take a look at Circle of Healing.

    So one bad design choice justifies other talents being brought down? Hell, warriors sucked right as 2.0 was released, Blizzard ought to have slashed the bonuses of abilities of all classes across the board.
    jhunter46 wrote: »
    I'm not sure that I'm going to spec into Mangle if I decide to keep tanking. It's a six second Maul minus the extra threat, how is this still a 41 point talent?

    Maul doesn't get extra threat anymore.

    Unless they took it away, Maul generates a static amount of threat, similar to heroic strike.

    Er, I'm stupid, forgot about it.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • zilozilo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    The survivability hit is going to be the worst, followed closely by the threat nerf. I could give a shit about bearform DPS as long as I'm holding agro but too much shit is immune to lacerate as it is; it's not hard to lose agro on bleed-immune mobs as it stands, it's going to be awful after the patch. So much for offtanking Karazhan.

    zilo on
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited February 2007
    shadowane wrote: »
    Horray for not getting crit by 2k mangles by level 65's anymore D:
    I'm guessing you are a mage or cloth class as on mobs I reach about 1k mangles when I'm by myself. So you're probably just lying and being a douche.

    edit: To add to the conversation with something other than calling a douche a douche, they should make Savage Fury add 10% threat to the bear moves instead of damage. That won't affect pvp at all and allow bears to continue to be viable tanks.

    Leather. olololol

    TheCrumblyCracker on
  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    zilo wrote: »
    The survivability hit is going to be the worst, followed closely by the threat nerf. I could give a shit about bearform DPS as long as I'm holding agro but too much shit is immune to lacerate as it is; it's not hard to lose agro on bleed-immune mobs as it stands, it's going to be awful after the patch. So much for offtanking Karazhan.

    That is my biggest concern with it. If they wanted to nerf bear mangle so that people will actually view lacerate as the main new tanking skill, they need to make it effective at generating threat on all mob types, not just the humanoids/beasts.

    riz on
    Organichu wrote:
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  • CaptHighSpeedCaptHighSpeed Registered User
    edited February 2007
    i was off-tanking in karazhan and once my mob would die, i'd just hop over to the next mob which was usually being MT'd by a prot warrior in nice gear, i could pull aggro off pretty quick and even just auto-attacking the warrior would have to his ass off to get aggro off of me on the taunt-immune mobs/bosses. if you're having trouble keeping aggro after the nerf, learn to play. seriously.

    i needed a nerf :P l2p.

    CaptHighSpeed on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    In PvE I'm actually getting a buff because I'm a balance druid (more armor. Thanks but I'm still wearing alot of cloth.)

    I still think this blows though. Druids are going to be second string no matter what now. When the warriors have hit 70 and gear up druid tanks are going to be laughed at again.

    I hate whiny little bitches. Warriors now make that list.

    Derrick on
    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    i was off-tanking in karazhan and once my mob would die, i'd just hop over to the next mob which was usually being MT'd by a prot warrior in nice gear, i could pull aggro off pretty quick and even just auto-attacking the warrior would have to his ass off to get aggro off of me on the taunt-immune mobs/bosses. if you're having trouble keeping aggro after the nerf, learn to play. seriously.

    i needed a nerf :P l2p.

    Why should druids be nerfed because warriors suck?

    AND

    Druids can more easily pull aggro off of warriors BECAUSE SUNDER ARMOR DRASTICALLY INCREASES THE THREAT WE CAN GENERATE.

    Why does nobody notice this?

    Garthor on
  • s3rial ones3rial one Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I'm mostly just QQing about my own class' poor design... but really, mangle is still a damn useful cat spell and saying it should be trainable just because it's not good for one of the two ways you can use it is a bit over the top.

    My personal opinion on the druid changes, after having talked with a few of our own feral druids and looking at the numbers a bit is that the damage nerf is probably justified... but there needs to be some more threat returned to keep things in order. The mitigation changes? I don't think they were really necessary, but I'm not entirely sure how they'll turn out in actual play.

    If every talent was as bad as Circle of Healing, though...
    They should've made bear mangle a stackable (say, 5 times) DoT with extra aggro generation, so, kind of like Sunder Armor, but with DoT instead of armor reduction.

    Problem solved: no more crazy-ass crits, and bear druids have a good reason to take Mangle.

    s3rial one on
  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    s3rial one wrote: »
    I'm mostly just QQing about my own class' poor design... but really, mangle is still a damn useful cat spell and saying it should be trainable just because it's not good for one of the two ways you can use it is a bit over the top.

    My personal opinion on the druid changes, after having talked with a few of our own feral druids and looking at the numbers a bit is that the damage nerf is probably justified... but there needs to be some more threat returned to keep things in order. The mitigation changes? I don't think they were really necessary, but I'm not entirely sure how they'll turn out in actual play.

    If every talent was as bad as Circle of Healing, though...
    They should've made bear mangle a stackable (say, 5 times) DoT with extra aggro generation, so, kind of like Sunder Armor, but with DoT instead of armor reduction.

    Problem solved: no more crazy-ass crits, and bear druids have a good reason to take Mangle.

    It's called Lacerate.

    It sucks.

    Garthor on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    i was off-tanking in karazhan and once my mob would die, i'd just hop over to the next mob which was usually being MT'd by a prot warrior in nice gear, i could pull aggro off pretty quick and even just auto-attacking the warrior would have to his ass off to get aggro off of me on the taunt-immune mobs/bosses. if you're having trouble keeping aggro after the nerf, learn to play. seriously.

    i needed a nerf :P l2p.


    So you're saying your guild's prot warrior is so awful that they can't pull aggro off you from auto-attack threat alone? Might I reccomend a new warrior?

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • s3rial ones3rial one Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    s3rial one wrote: »
    I'm mostly just QQing about my own class' poor design... but really, mangle is still a damn useful cat spell and saying it should be trainable just because it's not good for one of the two ways you can use it is a bit over the top.

    My personal opinion on the druid changes, after having talked with a few of our own feral druids and looking at the numbers a bit is that the damage nerf is probably justified... but there needs to be some more threat returned to keep things in order. The mitigation changes? I don't think they were really necessary, but I'm not entirely sure how they'll turn out in actual play.

    If every talent was as bad as Circle of Healing, though...
    They should've made bear mangle a stackable (say, 5 times) DoT with extra aggro generation, so, kind of like Sunder Armor, but with DoT instead of armor reduction.

    Problem solved: no more crazy-ass crits, and bear druids have a good reason to take Mangle.

    It's called Lacerate.

    It sucks.
    You'd think I would remember that. Shows you how often I tank.

    *shrug*

    I'm feral myself, but I only shift into bear form when I have to, and then I usually just spam Maul.

    Really, sucks for tanking druids. :(

    s3rial one on
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    If things turn out for the worst I can't wait for warriors to start complaining about being expected to tank again. Being forced to be prot for them is just like being forced to be resto for Druids only now they've dug their own graves so to speak.

    Opty on
  • exisexis Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Opty wrote: »
    If things turn out for the worst I can't wait for warriors to start complaining about being expected to tank again. Being forced to be prot for them is just like being forced to be resto for Druids only now they've dug their own graves so to speak.

    Difference being that there are more healers required per raid than tanks, while you usually only need one of each in a 5-man. Warriors being expected to DPS in 25-mans, while expected to tank in 5-mans? Yeah, that's just like druids being expected to spec into a tree which is actually useful in both circumstances.

    exis on
  • DizzenDizzen Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    exis wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    If things turn out for the worst I can't wait for warriors to start complaining about being expected to tank again. Being forced to be prot for them is just like being forced to be resto for Druids only now they've dug their own graves so to speak.

    Difference being that there are more healers required per raid than tanks, while you usually only need one of each in a 5-man. Warriors being expected to DPS in 25-mans, while expected to tank in 5-mans? Yeah, that's just like druids being expected to spec into a tree which is actually useful in both circumstances.
    Does a warrior generally have to be prot spec to tank a 5-man instance? I am very much under the impression that this is not the case.

    Dizzen on
    Dichotomy wrote: »
    it'd be like Jurassic Park, but with bananas
  • zilozilo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Not at all.

    Heroic, maybe. Still probably not.

    zilo on
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Dizzen wrote: »
    exis wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    If things turn out for the worst I can't wait for warriors to start complaining about being expected to tank again. Being forced to be prot for them is just like being forced to be resto for Druids only now they've dug their own graves so to speak.

    Difference being that there are more healers required per raid than tanks, while you usually only need one of each in a 5-man. Warriors being expected to DPS in 25-mans, while expected to tank in 5-mans? Yeah, that's just like druids being expected to spec into a tree which is actually useful in both circumstances.
    Does a warrior generally have to be prot spec to tank a 5-man instance? I am very much under the impression that this is not the case.


    Nah. I don't think I've had a warrior tank yet who was prot spec and it all works out fine.

    Derrick on
    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Non-prot warrior tanking is adequate for 5-mans. Some-prot tanking (like, 15 points into the tree) is great for 5-mans, adequate for heroics, and pretty ideal for off-tanking in raids. Full prot (40+ points) tanking is your heroic/raid MT monster dealie. Overkill for standard 5-mans, though.

    Dehumanized on
  • CaptHighSpeedCaptHighSpeed Registered User
    edited February 2007
    the warriors i was pulling off are veteran warriors. they were our main tanks from when we were wiping on lucifron through our attempts at aq40. they weren't noobs. it wouldn't be bad if my dmg in bear was less that much less than the rogues.

    for karazhan, i'm in cat for trash unless i'm needed to off-tank something. we get to attumen, i OT his horse, the warrior gets him. stage two, attumen aggroes me w/o me hitting it, o autoattack, warrior gets his sunders up, starts to devastates etc, i still have aggro, stop autoattacking, warrior finally gets aggro, i pop out, go to cat, cower and just autoattack a bit, FFF, mangle, shred, etc pull aggro back , cower, lose it, hop into bear, and just tank him to the end.

    my dmg for the trash and attumen was only 50k less than the rogue and mages.

    the other thing, i did not have to instance grind my ass off for decent gear. the warriors did. i hit revered with each instance group and said fuck em for the most part. i have the health and mitigation than theprot warriors do while doing many more times the dmg...

    bears are also not meant to be a dmg dealing class. mangles should not be hitting for what 2-handers hit for =/

    CaptHighSpeed on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • exisexis Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    the warriors i was pulling off are veteran warriors. they were our main tanks from when we were wiping on lucifron through our attempts at aq40. they weren't noobs. it wouldn't be bad if my dmg in bear was less that much less than the rogues.

    for karazhan, i'm in cat for trash unless i'm needed to off-tank something. we get to attumen, i OT his horse, the warrior gets him. stage two, attumen aggroes me w/o me hitting it, o autoattack, warrior gets his sunders up, starts to devastates etc, i still have aggro, stop autoattacking, warrior finally gets aggro, i pop out, go to cat, cower and just autoattack a bit, FFF, mangle, shred, etc pull aggro back , cower, lose it, hop into bear, and just tank him to the end.

    my dmg for the trash and attumen was only 50k less than the rogue and mages.

    the other thing, i did not have to instance grind my ass off for decent gear. the warriors did. i hit revered with each instance group and said fuck em for the most part. i have the health and mitigation than theprot warriors do while doing many more times the dmg...

    bears are also not meant to be a dmg dealing class. mangles should not be hitting for what 2-handers hit for =/

    You're not a good druid at all. You're meant to be bitching and whining, what the hell.

    exis on
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