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Is the internet dead?

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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    The digital cable box uses the exact same infrastructure that my internet goes through. The problem isn't so much the infrastructure as the technology behind it. They can easily push that data through with what they have.

    FiOS and Coaxial both do it in similar ways. I don't lag on the internet when watching TV, or using my phone. Basically, and this is really watered down because I'm not too knowledgable about the specifics myself, each frequency/channel/spectrum is chosen for a specific purpose. The same way you can listen to different radio channels just by changing the frequency you look at. You don't need special equipment, really, you just need sufficient planning.

    I think standard home coax cable has a theoretical download throughput of 2 or so Gbit/sec. Obviously a majority of that is used for television.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited March 2011
    Bowen, it's not about the bandwidth that the cable can carry; it's about the distance that amount of data can travel on that medium, and the number of hops and different paths the data has to travel to get to you.

    Your digital cable box has a very different path to sending tv to you Netflix does, and it doesn't really matter that both are coming through the same cable.

    syndalis on
    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Oh I know, but imagine if you remove TV from that spectrum. Suddenly those hops don't really matter. Assuming you're not trying to stream through Russia or Ganfuckistan or something.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    schussschuss Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Even with 3 heavy internet users and downloaders (and 3 steam accounts), we never touched our Comcast cap. If you read into it, less than 1% of users were hitting the cap when they implemented it, and those were propbably hosting warez sites/were idiot bittorrenters. You always have the option to buy more, and the natural market push pull between ISP's and content providers will mean we'll never get truly draconian caps. If you really are streaming/downloading that much, you probably don't need to pay for cable TV, which frees up money to pay for a better line.

    schuss on
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    BenditBendit Cømþü†€r Šýš†emš Anålýš† Ðeñv€r¸ ColørådøRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Bowen I know what you mean. I think what you were describing was analog signal on copper wiring (where each station had different frequencies). Even though the COAX is still copper, I think TV is all digital (over copper) now. The signal is still analog (but then transformed into digital). Syndalis is right also, it's about latency, hops and other network fuckups like that. The cable provider serves from their servers and they make sure you get the best latency to their gear. But if you stream via the internet, from Netflix for example, that path is not "optimized" by the cable TV provider, heck, it's not their priority! I dont know, I am not an expert in digital cable TV, but I do have scattered servers that I serve data from. Ping, hops, that all matters. Ch€€rš!

    Bendit on
    My Live-Tracked Electronica: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhSn2rozrIo
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited March 2011
    bowen wrote: »
    Oh I know, but imagine if you remove TV from that spectrum. Suddenly those hops don't really matter. Assuming you're not trying to stream through Russia or Ganfuckistan or something.

    No, it really does matter.

    Lets say you want to watch an HD on-demand program from time warner.

    Your cable box sends the request to the local servers for your city, who then pass it through maybe 7-8 hops before getting to your cable box. Every single step of that chain is optimized for this kind of traffic, and they can utilize it to the fullest extent allowed to them by FCC frequency guidelines.


    Now, lets talk about netflix.

    You send a request to watch an HD program on netflix. Before it reaches you, it has to travel through multiple, multiple different networks, all of whom have limited bandwith, and all of whom charge each other for either the fatness of their pipe or the amount of GB/TB they pull in a month. So bandwidth gets throttled, shaped, and delayed throughout the journey BEFORE it reaches time warner, who also limits how fat your connection to these outside networks is and how much of it you can use, because they are paying for their connection to the larger network dearly.

    If all of these restrictions and bandwidth caps went away, the internet would not be a viable economic model for any of the larger players who facilitate the network, and to borrow a silly statement used poorly, the tubes would in fact become clogged.

    The nice thing is that we are constantly lighting up more dark fiber, we are seeing our capabilities growing decade after decade (america's dedication to broadband was stalled like you would not believe during the bush administration, but there are initiatives to get the ball rolling again), bandwidth caps which seem restrictive now will increase over time as faster pipes are offered to consumers, and a time will come where 1080p streaming for all will be a reality... the internet is simply not ready for that kind of traffic yet.

    syndalis on
    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    syndalis wrote: »
    Bowen, it's not about the bandwidth that the cable can carry; it's about the distance that amount of data can travel on that medium, and the number of hops and different paths the data has to travel to get to you.

    Your digital cable box has a very different path to sending tv to you Netflix does, and it doesn't really matter that both are coming through the same cable.

    I said I know that. What I'm basically getting at is that this infrastructure is extremely capable of carrying that data, and more.

    Whether TCP/UDP routing is affecting it, is not what I'm getting at. There are infrastructure changes that can happen to accommodate streaming. Such as, for instance, caching, or collocation. Or just a fundamental change to how we do media.

    Maybe Netflix gets a satellite, who knows, but the hindrance is not how much you eat a month. It is a complex problem, for sure, but monthly bandwidth limits do nothing but "scaring" your customers into not using their service. Which, I guess, achieves your ends for less cost than actually doing something.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited March 2011
    bowen wrote: »
    Maybe Netflix gets a satellite, who knows, but the hindrance is not how much you eat a month. It is a complex problem, for sure, but monthly bandwidth limits do nothing but "scaring" your customers into not using their service. Which, I guess, achieves your ends for less cost than actually doing something.

    No, these limits keep a very small minority of users from impacting the service for the majority while they continue to build out their network so that eventually more and better services are available to the masses.

    10 years ago I could not get a 60/8 megabit internet connection for 59 dollars; now I can. And who knows what it will look like another ten years from now?

    syndalis on
    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Our service hadn't changed in 10 years. Until FiOS rolled in.

    For the longest time it was 5/1. Now it's... significantly higher.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    Dark ShroudDark Shroud Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    It all depends on where you live.

    Right now I'm on U-verse with a 12/1.5 Mbps line. My family left Comcast with a grandfathered in plan of 25/5 Mbps.

    Right now only AT&T and Comcast are continually upgrading their networks. Comcast wants nationwide DOCSIS 3, which my area now has. And AT&T is running everything as IP based with the option of old style POTS phone lines. The issue is that they're placing priorities on some area over others. If this is a problem for you go with a local provider if you have the option, we also have Wide Open West. Wow is uncapped and rolling out some network upgrades. I'm trying to get my sister to go with them.

    Dark Shroud on
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    Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    ben0207 wrote: »
    Lord Jezo wrote: »
    You sir, are mistaken.

    I have a 12Mb/s ADSL2+ connection, and about 120GB/month cap in Western Australia. Never been near that. Granted, I don't download my games, I buy them on disc, but considering a heavy-usage month means I used about 1/3 of my cap, that leaves 80 GB for game downloads....

    You just said it there, 120 GB limit, which is tiny. Once you start streaming 1080p television at all times you will blow through that in hours. If the internet is to be used as a primary form of entertainment replacing standard cable television you will never be able to do it.

    Why in fuck would I stream 1080p television through my internet connection when I have satellite television?

    Why in fuck would you pay for a satelite connection when you can stream through your internet connection?

    Because my throughput-unlimited satellite connection is much faster and steadier (I can DVR two 1080p 5.1 films simultaneously from the satellite) than my internet connection can ever be, well, until the NBN comes to my house, that is. Fibre-optic to the wall socket yes please plans starting at 100/25 up/down oh my I'm coming over all a-flustered...

    Donovan Puppyfucker on
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    ReiRei New YorkRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Here in Long Island there's Optimum Online (Cablevision) and Verizon FiOS as the main internet companies. Neither have any caps and for 50 a month you get up to 15/2 from Optimum and 15/5 from FiOS, with options for faster speeds if necessary. I guess I never knew how lucky we had it here.

    I'm a bit ignorant on the workings of the infrastructure but if Optimum and Verizon can offer service to millions of people across the tri-state area, why does ATT or Comcast need caps?

    Rei on
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited March 2011
    Rei wrote: »
    Here in Long Island there's Optimum Online (Cablevision) and Verizon FiOS as the main internet companies. Neither have any caps and for 50 a month you get up to 15/2 from Optimum and 15/5 from FiOS, with options for faster speeds if necessary. I guess I never knew how lucky we had it here.

    I'm a bit ignorant on the workings of the infrastructure but if Optimum and Verizon can offer service to millions of people across the tri-state area, why does ATT or Comcast need caps?
    There are caps, I assure you.

    If you downloaded hundreds of gigs of content a month for a couple of months, they will send you a letter kindly asking you to stop, or they will just throttle your bandwidth.

    Invisible caps are even more prevalent in America than the caps you know.

    syndalis on
    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
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    ReiRei New YorkRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    syndalis wrote: »
    Rei wrote: »
    Here in Long Island there's Optimum Online (Cablevision) and Verizon FiOS as the main internet companies. Neither have any caps and for 50 a month you get up to 15/2 from Optimum and 15/5 from FiOS, with options for faster speeds if necessary. I guess I never knew how lucky we had it here.

    I'm a bit ignorant on the workings of the infrastructure but if Optimum and Verizon can offer service to millions of people across the tri-state area, why does ATT or Comcast need caps?
    There are caps, I assure you.

    If you downloaded hundreds of gigs of content a month for a couple of months, they will send you a letter kindly asking you to stop, or they will just throttle your bandwidth.

    Invisible caps are even more prevalent in America than the caps you know.

    Yeah I guess so, I did quite a bit of looking for some fine print for a cap some where and didn't see any. Then again, I didn't see the word "unlimited" anywhere either.

    Rei on
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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    syndalis wrote: »
    Rei wrote: »
    Here in Long Island there's Optimum Online (Cablevision) and Verizon FiOS as the main internet companies. Neither have any caps and for 50 a month you get up to 15/2 from Optimum and 15/5 from FiOS, with options for faster speeds if necessary. I guess I never knew how lucky we had it here.

    I'm a bit ignorant on the workings of the infrastructure but if Optimum and Verizon can offer service to millions of people across the tri-state area, why does ATT or Comcast need caps?
    There are caps, I assure you.

    If you downloaded hundreds of gigs of content a month for a couple of months, they will send you a letter kindly asking you to stop, or they will just throttle your bandwidth.

    Invisible caps are even more prevalent in America than the caps you know.

    If there is, they are insane.

    We talked about upgrading to business class at my house with my boss because I needed to move several hundred gigs in a couple weeks back and forth (was testing a backup).

    I never got a letter asking me to stop, and my monthly bandwidth had to be in the TBytes.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    rockmonkeyrockmonkey Little RockRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    What happened or is happening with the project Google wanted to undertake with the 1 gigabit connections and fiber to the homes that I heard about a year or two ago. I know something like that takes time, but last I heard they were taking submissions from communities and a quick google search returns just info on that and the entry process seems to have been closed for a while.

    Looks like it's called "Google Fiber for Communities"

    They wanted to start with providing it to anywhere from 50,000 - 500,000 people.

    We need more projects like that. Maybe netflix should consider jumping in the infrastructure ring more like Google decdied to do.

    rockmonkey on
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    BenditBendit Cømþü†€r Šýš†emš Anålýš† Ðeñv€r¸ ColørådøRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Man, fibre is nice. Here at work I have a 1 GIGABIT line straight out to the internet (and back). Full fibre. Wish the whole country was wired that way.

    Bendit on
    My Live-Tracked Electronica: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhSn2rozrIo
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Man where is this "Australia's internet is censored" thing coming from. That legislation seems to be in the midst of being quietly forgotten about, thankfully.

    electricitylikesme on
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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    As much as I hate Charter, I have to commend them for giving me 15 more megabits/s than I paid for, and not having any sort of caps. And where I live, the situation sucks out loud for people who use DSL, but if you've got cable, it's quite good.

    Maybe it's because I'm paying for 16 mb/s and getting nearly twice that, but the internet seems pretty great, bandwidth wise, right now.

    Synthesis on
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