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Is a high LSAT score enough?
Misteareus
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
(This is an alt. Too many people know my handle in real life).
Hey guys! I'm going to communicate the brunt of my history via bullet points, as I think it's easier to quickly read and comprehend.
+ I'm 22 years old.
+ About a year ago I graduated from a state university with a degree in Sociology.
+ My undergraduate GPA was abysmal (2.9, I believe).
+ I was overweight and very depressed, leading to me constantly ditching class to stay at home and mope around.
+ After graduation I started therapy and medication, along with a major lifestyle change.
+ In this past year I've lost 150 pounds and now I actually get stuff done instead of play video games all day.
+ About six months ago I realized I was really interested in becoming a lawyer.
+ I studied very hard for the LSAT.
+ I took the LSAT and scored 176.
And that's pretty much it!
Did I screw myself over by fucking up in undergrad? Or will my LSAT score be enough to get me into a fairly decent school? Obviously I'll be contacting universities myself, but I would like a general idea of what to expect.
Thanks!
Hey guys! I'm going to communicate the brunt of my history via bullet points, as I think it's easier to quickly read and comprehend.
+ I'm 22 years old.
+ About a year ago I graduated from a state university with a degree in Sociology.
+ My undergraduate GPA was abysmal (2.9, I believe).
+ I was overweight and very depressed, leading to me constantly ditching class to stay at home and mope around.
+ After graduation I started therapy and medication, along with a major lifestyle change.
+ In this past year I've lost 150 pounds and now I actually get stuff done instead of play video games all day.
+ About six months ago I realized I was really interested in becoming a lawyer.
+ I studied very hard for the LSAT.
+ I took the LSAT and scored 176.
And that's pretty much it!
Did I screw myself over by fucking up in undergrad? Or will my LSAT score be enough to get me into a fairly decent school? Obviously I'll be contacting universities myself, but I would like a general idea of what to expect.
Thanks!
Misteareus on
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This discussion has been closed.
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Honestly, the best place that will take me. I (obviously) can't afford to be picky.
Well, then yes. Do some research into which schools value LSAT over GPA and you'll be fine. 2.9 with a great LSAT will get you into some ok law schools. Not great, not even good probably, but decent. Send out as many applications as you can. Blanket the schools with them.
This obviously doesn't mean "Don't apply to your dream school(s)" it just means that you shouldn't expect to get in there. Apply to all the great schools, too. You never know until you ask.
If not, focus on crafting an excellent personal statement and getting good recommendations. I disagree with Esh. It is possible for you to get into a school in the 20-50 range of the US news rankings; they're not top 14 schools, but they are better than decent. It's going to be hit or miss, but someone will want that LSAT. But expect to be waitlisted.
So cast a wide net. And consult Law School Numbers. That site allows law school applicants to input their stats, identify the schools they applied to and let others know what & when they heard back from the schools. Helped me a lot ages ago. You can search through the current application cycle and for several years back. The link I provided should display results from students with numbers like your from last year's cycle.
When looking at the results, in addition to LSAT & GPA, always look to see if someone is a URM and how many years they've been out of school. Those are the biggest factors. Throw a hailmary at Northwestern (they love high LSATs) and GULC, definitely. It's unlikely, but it does happen. You're too late for this cycle, so take the next 9 months to start contacting recommenders and drafting your personal statement. Submit a polished application early (November or December) to get better results. Going early decision at GULC, Cornell or Northwestern might be a good idea, if you're prepared to make the commitment.
Also, I don't know if you were looking at Canadian schools at all, but don't. They place a much higher weight on GPA than LSAT.
College GPA: 3.7 in political science
LSAT: 158 (After taking the LSAT three times...so yeah, clearly the LSAT and I didn't agree with each other)
Coming from the University of Utah, that isn't much of an amazing score
What did I want to do? Politics and political law. I applied to schools I knew I would enjoy going to George Washington University was my top choice, Utah was my safety, and then I picked politically active communities I would enjoy being a part of, so Wisconsin, American university, Boston College and BU.
With my LSAT score, I wasn't breaking the bank for any of these schools, and I realized I would likely not get into my top choice, GW. As luck had it, I got into GW and am now a 3L. This is because my overall application, with letters, and my personal statement made it easy to gloss over my under average LSAT.
For your situation, you have a killer LSAT score, the kind that makes top10 schools a real possibility, despite your GPA. Here is the general admissions system that most schools use: The three pile or four pile method. The school separates out applications into the "Yes, Maybe yes, Maybe no, NO" categories. With your high LSAT score you should be able to, off of score alone, get into the maybe's section of the pile. After that, it will be your personal essay, letters of recommendation, and what you've done since college that puts your application into the yes pile.
My advice, apply to everywhere YOU THINK YOU'D LIKE. Research the schools, (I knew I'd hate going to schools with that "old money" feel), think about the things you want to do with your law degree. These are considerations:
-What do you want to do with the degree
-Will the school give you advanced knoweldge or access to great professors in your field (Some schools are ranked really poorly in terms of overall ranking, but are the top of their field in a specialized area of law, like Vt's Environmental law program, or Kent's IP program)
-If you don't know what area of law you like, do you like the professorial staff in general
-Do you like the climate of the law school location
-Do you like the overall environment, do you want a city or a small town feel?
-Will you go full time or part time (This is huge because some schools are high ranking but have terrible part time programs)
Remember, you have an extremely high LSAT score, and it plays a huge factor. Law schools aren't dumb, and they will likely recognize that you've gotten your shite together if you make an application that shows you've really matured since college (Without falling over yourself about how much you've grown up since college)
Apply to the best schools with the criteria above, then maybe apply to schools that are still high in the ranking, maybe top50 as safety schools. DO NOT apply to any t3 or below. You have too great of an LSAT to do that. There will be a school in the top50 who wants you, and likely a couple schools in the top 20 who are willing to give you a shot.
Good luck mate
Nothing against Cooley or their students, but no. Just don't. First, yes, you can get a scholarship for the first year, but depending on your performance as a 1L (a big if) all of that money could disappear later.
Second, Cooley is a third teir school. It's not well regarded and you will have difficulty finding a job from that school if you're in Michigan. Anywhere else and you'll have no chance.
If you're not going to a nationally recognized school (top 14), where ever you go to school is almost certainly where you're going to practice for at least the first 3-5 years. So, if you want to practice in Seattle, don't go to Case Western. Try to select schools in a region you won't mind spending a lot of time in. Because chances are you degree won't travel.
Third, the OP's numbers aren't that bad. Some schools are hungry for better stats. They would gladly take his LSAT score, to improve their selectivity stats.
Take DC for instance, you have an outside chance (really slim, maybe 15%) at Georgetown [#14]. You have a decent shot at George Washington University [#20](maybe 30%-60%) depending on when you apply. You will get into George Mason [#40] and you can probably get cash from American [#50] maybe from both.
My story: a 3.6 in business and a 160ish LSAT. I went to my school of choice, Creighton University, and was awarded scholarships totaling approximately 1.8 times the cost of tuition. I graduated in 2003 with no debt and a great job at a firm where I am now a partner.
Don't ignore the people that want to talk about tiers and prestige and all of that. The comment is well taken that, espcially in this market, a graduate from a non-top-20 school will only have a good chance of employment if they stay in the community where they went to school. However, don't take their advice to mean that a full ride to a non-ivy is worse than a job at Wal-Mart.
SO: If you go to GW, then your degree has really strong play in the DC,VA,Md area and GW is well represented in the midwest and atlantic seaboard (So NY, NJ, Ohio). GW is pretty well known and will get you far in the mountain region as well (like Utah, or COlorado) It will not do that much for you in California, where they already have crazy good law schools (Berkely, UCLA, USC, Stanford, Irvine to name a few).
Some schools in t2(50-100) are not nationally strong, but within their region are the key to getting great jobs. So, lets take my Brother, also a 3L in Utah. He has worse grades than me, and a lower ranked school than me. He also has a 100k starting associate position with a firm in Utah, wherein I couldn't even get the same firm to talk to me. Thats because regional schools matter if you plan on practicing in the schools region.
Finally, your numbers are not bad. and you shouldn't feel terribly limited from applying to major schools (Particularly berkely with their weird application process).
I hope I didn't give that impression. You can get a great job from schools outside the top 14. You'll just be confined in your search to a certain region. That region might be several states, but the limitation exists.
You are right that rank is not everything. In Georgia, the University of Georgia reigns supreme. Emory dropped in the rankings this year, so the gap isn't as large, but once upon a time it was ranked around #20, while UGA was in the high thirties. UGA still had better connections/job placement in Georgia. So, going to a lower ranked school and paying less in tuition (and probably getting offered more cash to go there) yielded better or comparable results. This sort of thing is not uncommon.
If you aren't going to a top 14, do your research and learn which schools have the best placement in the area your considering. Outcomes are not always tied to rank.
But I do think there is floor; applicants (especially ones with numbers like this) shouldn't consider schools below a certain threshold - especially if they are not getting scholarships and the like. In this market, with the amount of debt a student will have to take on to get their JD, I'm no sure I'd counsel someone to go to a third tier school.
Basically, I think you need to look at schools that have an average LSAT score for admitted students that is somewhere in the mid 160's. If your grades matched your LSAT, you could reasonably reach for more competitive schools.
The good news is that you should be pretty competitive for a number of top-tier schools, but at the lower end of the top-tier.
I concur. Unless you've got a sure thing lined up after graduation, such as taking over your grandfather's practice or something, or you end up in the top-5 in your class, a 3rd-tier school is very risky.
Fortunately, I don't think the OP needs to worry about that. He should be able to get into a good law school, either a respected national school or a strong regional one.
Rigorous Scholarship
Congrats on that LSAT score - top notch.
Also, before I start, don't apply to or enroll at Cooley. They're the butt of jokes for completely deserved reasons - for instance, they release their own ratings each year, making themselves #1.
I do law school application consulting for a living, so I see splitters all of the time (high LSAT, low GPA), though your LSAT score is, obviously, higher than most. That will help you a lot, as almost every law school weighs the LSAT significantly stronger than GPA (usually 60%/40%).
However, you're going to have to mitigate their fears about your academic abilities somehow, since the low GPA is a negative reflection on your work ethic.
What I would recommend doing is using your personal statement to talk about your battle with weight and depression. An additional essay will reinforce that your low grades in undergrad were because of this, and since you have lost the weight you've become productive. Don't be afraid to own your shortcomings, as law schools will see that as a sign that you've overcome them. The biggest thing you need to do is convince them that your troubles in undergrad will not continue into law school.
It's not going to be an easy sell, but it's definitely possible. Your LSAT will convince top schools that you're smart enough to handle the material; it's your work ethic that's called into question. I think that you could convince them that you possess a strong one through your success in losing that much weight (congrats on that, too, by the way!).
If you have any other questions, look up my company's blog (not sure on the posting rules here, so vague description - the blog is called Most Strongly Supported). There are daily articles for law applicants and a message board where consultants will answer any questions you have. Tell them Matt sent you if you want to get me some bonus points.
(You can also PM me if you have any additional questions)
Your high strength is your score, and like I said, schools use the pile method. Your score is high enough that most schools, aside from maybe the top 5, will put you in the maybe pile. Everything else is how you sell that you are serious about law school.
Now would be a good time to rekindle relationships with your favorite professors, maybe take them to lunch and see if they will write you a glowing recommendation.
Next, I would recommend that you consult Brian Leiter's law school blog. He's a philosopher at the University of Chicago who does a bunch of stuff in jurisprudence, and he runs a series of blogs on both graduate school in philosophy as well as law school in the United States. There's loads of useful information on there, but the main point that you'll find is that he recommends very strongly you investigate the placement record of the program you are interested in. You may find what looks like a great program only to discover that none of its graduates get jobs.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/
and
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/
There you go.
OP, you have a pretty good shot at Northwestern after getting at least a couple years of work experience. That's what I'd do in your situation, anyways.
You should apply widely because who takes you will depend a lot on profiles of other applicants for the cycle. Law school tuition is skyrocketing. It's absurdly expensive, and not a good return on investment for a lot of people because post-law school salaries are mediocre if you can find a job. In this climate i'd recommend minimizing your downside risk by going to the best place that will take you and pay your tuition.
Yes, I'll be casting quite a wide net out there. I'm primarily interested in the major cities on the East Coast, like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and DC. I would have no problem settling down in any one of those (I didn't realize that a law degree would be more powerful in the region you acquired it, though in hindsight it makes sense).
I plan to start in Fall of 2012. With all that time in between, do you think it would be wise to try my hand at the LSAT again? I only took it once, and I'm sure I could get it a point or two higher. The general consensus seems to be that my LSAT score will get my foot in the door, and the rest is up to me to convince them that I've changed. A higher score can only help, right? Or would it not be worth the effort?
In the past year since I graduated I've been working a part time job. I've also been volunteering a lot (mainly with Red Cross, a local homeless shelter, and a small hospice) for about thirty hours a week. Will this information help convince them that I'm not the same lazy kid I was before?
Yeah. It won't help admissions otherwise but it will show your GPA isn't as much of a problem. To be honest they don't so much care about what happens to you after you matriculate as long as you pass the bar.
And I'd be worried about getting a lower score. That's not an insult or anything, it's just something you should consider. I'm not sure the reward is worth the risk.
I think you're right to focus on volunteering and interesting activities to expand/supplement your resume. If you can find something legal related that would be nice as well.
Osgoode Hall does.
Right on. I have no idea what U.S. schools do. A number of Canadian schools aren't strictly numbers based for various reasons -- Osgoode Hall, which is usually considered the top common law school in the country (although it goes back and forth with U of Toronto) did away with a set formula for determining admissions some time ago. Even schools which still retain some kind of formula, like UBC or UVic, generally allow for 'drops' of your worst classes/credits/years.
The situation is amplified in Quebec, where the LSAT is irrelevant in every school except McGill. There it's only optional.