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NEETs and Basement Dwellers: Are Men Today Taking Longer to Grow Up?

GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
edited March 2011 in Debate and/or Discourse
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/28/134134731/As-America-Changes-Manhood-Does-Too
Once upon a time in America, boys "became men" when they went to war or started a family. Those milestones still hold true for some, but Kay Hymowitz, author of Manning Up: How The Rise Of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys, says too many young men today are stuck in a stage of extended adolescence. In the new "pre-adulthood," she argues, young men are choosing video games or reruns on the Cartoon Network over adult responsibilities — namely, marriage.
The resulting message to young men, says Hymowitz, "is that they're sort of optional to family life. And I think when you tell a whole generation of men [that] we can take them or leave them, you're going to get a rebellion on their part."

How accurate is this assessment? I read a similar article about how young Japanese males are abandoning the salary-man lifestyle of their parents' generation to pursue hobbies and careers that allow for more individual expression. And I've personally seen a lot more men my age in recent years still living with their parents or with girlfriends who work multiple jobs to provide for the both of them right here in America.

Is this just a passing trend or an emergent paradigm of our generation?

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Glyph on
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Posts

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Any girl who abides working multiple jobs to support a boyfriend who just plays video games all day has seriously got some fucked up priorities. Not as fucked up as the boyfriend, though.

    Javen on
  • kdrudykdrudy Registered User
    edited March 2011
    I've read articles about this book in the past, there seems to be this singular idea of what being an adult is that is honestly insulting. You don't have to abandon the things you enjoyed in the past to be a responsible member of society and especially not just because you are a husband or father which isn't the be-all-end-all of manhood that seems to be suggested.

    kdrudy on
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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    The general assessment that video games and awesome cartoon shows are to blame makes it sound like the author just has a bone to pick with things she doesn't like.

    Henroid on
    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    In terms of the isuse of young men living in their parents' basements, the current status quo is a little unusual. We're in a really terrible economy that has been really hard on younger people just entering the workforce. A lot of younger guys (and chicks, too) are living in their parents' basement not due to any lack of ambition or motivation in life, but because they have to.

    As for the issue of marriage and family, why is that automatically an indication of growing up? I'm married with kids, but that was a personal decision on my part. It wasn't some conscious attempt to become an adult. Where is it written that people have to marry and start having kids at a certain age?

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Since when is marriage an "adult responsibility"?

    Disclaimer: I am married. Full time, well paying job. Also working on having a kid at some point soon. I also have all 3 consoles and a 61" TV I enjoy them on. My Christmas present from my wife last year was a trip to PAX East.

    The concept of the guy who hits 18, gets a job and a wife, buys a house and settles down is an antiquated 1950s ideal that never existed in the first place. Men don't have to do anything. We can be as mature or immature as we please, or in some cases, as overprotective or over-enabling parents/significant others allow us to.

    matt has a problem on
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  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    So the only way to be an adult is to get hitched and pump out kids?

    I've always hated the idea that that was supposed to be my goal in life. I coulda had kids when I was 15, and got married right after, then what?

    And for every dude "in a basement" or living with his parents there are two more quietly doing their shit without any fanfare or hoopla, while still playing video games.

    Malkor on
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  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    From the book in the article:
    "The idea that men were going to eventually be husbands and fathers really provided a kind of structure ... an understanding of their role within the society."

    Fuck

    That

    Shit

    If a guy wrote a book bemoaning the fact that women weren't in the kitchen making him a sandwich he'd be burned at the stake.

    matt has a problem on
    nibXTE7.png
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    From the book in the article:
    "The idea that men were going to eventually be husbands and fathers really provided a kind of structure ... an understanding of their role within the society."

    Fuck

    That

    Shit

    If a guy wrote a book bemoaning the fact that women weren't in the kitchen making him a sandwich he'd be burned at the stake.
    Interesting point. It's almost like the female author of that book wants to eat her cake and have it too. Saying that women have a narrow role in society that they have to follow would get her pilloried, and rightfully so. It's hypocritical to say that women can choose to be career-women or mothers (or something else) while men should be required to have an "understanding of their role within the society" that involves marriage and children by a certain age.

    And, to be honest, when it comes to marriage and children, guys have plenty of flexibility. They can wait until they're 35-40 and marry a woman in her 20's without any real issues regarding fertility. Historically, it's been pretty common that men waited until they were established in life and then married a younger woman. It's only relatively recently that the norm has become marrying someone of a similar age.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    It's an unexpected consequence of the feminist movement. This isn't a slight at the feminist movement. While it enabled women to seek out something beyond being a housewife, it enabled the obverse for men. Men don't have to be the breadwinners any more. We can dick around.

    matt has a problem on
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Henroid wrote: »
    The general assessment that video games and awesome cartoon shows are to blame makes it sound like the author just has a bone to pick with things she doesn't like.

    In fairness, I think she's poking at pastimes that are both rather time consuming, and often isolated (at least physically isolated). Things which exclude your partner, assuming your partner doesn't share your love or the toons and the vidja. And which guys of this age are known to exclude their partners in favor of.

    However, I'd point out that you seldom hear similar complaints about more "manly" isolationist pursuits. I know plenty of dudes that can ignore their wives for an evening to go turn wrenches on their old project car, and that's absolutely fine. But that same dude plops down in his comfy chair to get his CoD on? Oh fuck no.

    Since when is marriage an "adult responsibility"?

    Disclaimer: I am married. Full time, well paying job. Also working on having a kid at some point soon. I also have all 3 consoles and a 61" TV I enjoy them on. My Christmas present from my wife last year was a trip to PAX East.

    The concept of the guy who hits 18, gets a job and a wife, buys a house and settles down is an antiquated 1950s ideal that never existed in the first place. Men don't have to do anything. We can be as mature or immature as we please, or in some cases, as overprotective or over-enabling parents/significant others allow us to.

    Don't forget a briefcase. He must absolutely carry a briefcase. That, or workboots, depending on the color of his collar.

    Malkor wrote: »
    So the only way to be an adult is to get hitched and pump out kids?

    I've always hated the idea that that was supposed to be my goal in life. I coulda had kids when I was 15, and got married right after, then what?

    And for every dude "in a basement" or living with his parents there are two more quietly doing their shit without any fanfare or hoopla, while still playing video games.

    Sup!

    Modern Man wrote: »
    From the book in the article:
    "The idea that men were going to eventually be husbands and fathers really provided a kind of structure ... an understanding of their role within the society."

    Fuck

    That

    Shit

    If a guy wrote a book bemoaning the fact that women weren't in the kitchen making him a sandwich he'd be burned at the stake.
    Interesting point. It's almost like the female author of that book wants to eat her cake and have it too. Saying that women have a narrow role in society that they have to follow would get her pilloried, and rightfully so. It's hypocritical to say that women can choose to be career-women or mothers (or something else) while men should be required to have an "understanding of their role within the society" that involves marriage and children by a certain age.

    And, to be honest, when it comes to marriage and children, guys have plenty of flexibility. They can wait until they're 35-40 and marry a woman in her 20's without any real issues regarding fertility. Historically, it's been pretty common that men waited until they were established in life and then married a younger woman. It's only relatively recently that the norm has become marrying someone of a similar age.

    If we wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt, it's possible that she intends to refer to a more gender-neutral concept of the "role" of adulthood, and only uses the gendered terms (man and father) because her entire premise seems to be that men have the market cornered on failing to fill this role.

    If.

    Personally, color me skeptical.

    Instead, she strikes me as the breed of feminist where women can be anything and do anything, but men get to keep the same role thrust on them since the dawn of time. Whether she chooses a power career, mommy track, or full-time mom duties he's expected to grind it out and bring home the bacon (whether she chooses to add to that bacon is up to her, of course). She may pay lip service to the principles of equality and the value of the stay-at-home dad...but I'd bet money she'd never ever ever allow such an arrangement to exist in her house.


    EDIT: As for NEETs in particular, the economy blows ass right now. I know plenty of perfectly hard-working dudes that can't get anything going, and I know it's not for lack of trying.

    mcdermott on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    From the book in the article:
    "The idea that men were going to eventually be husbands and fathers really provided a kind of structure ... an understanding of their role within the society."

    Fuck

    That

    Shit

    If a guy wrote a book bemoaning the fact that women weren't in the kitchen making him a sandwich he'd be burned at the stake.

    Absolutely. The authors won't be taken to task for this article, though.

    Here, fill in the blank: Fitzwilliam Darcy : Masculinity :: _________ : Femininity

    Salvation122 on
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Oh, while I'm here I'll point out that the glory of modern warfare is that you can, if you're lucky, stay an adolescent all the way through it. Sure, you go out on patrols and occasionally get shot at...but at night it's back to the FOB to chill with the bros and play some Xbox. We bring the videogames with us now.

    mcdermott on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Malkor wrote: »
    So the only way to be an adult is to get hitched and pump out kids?

    I've always hated the idea that that was supposed to be my goal in life. I coulda had kids when I was 15, and got married right after, then what?

    And for every dude "in a basement" or living with his parents there are two more quietly doing their shit without any fanfare or hoopla, while still playing video games.

    18 years of raising them, then work 'til you retire and off to Boca.

    Then you die.

    Have fun!

    mcdermott on
  • StraygatsbyStraygatsby Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Until we can decant perfect babies out of a crystalline vat with age and gender irrelevant genetic material, this is going to be a trendy study to put out every now and then. It's worthless, but graduate students and social scientists need *something* to do.

    Straygatsby on
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    My dad will be 60 in two years. For his birthday this year I got him CODBLOPS and the Golden Age Looney Tunes Collection vol. 3.

    matt has a problem on
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    That warms the cockles of my heart.

    mcdermott on
  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Modern Man wrote: »
    From the book in the article:
    "The idea that men were going to eventually be husbands and fathers really provided a kind of structure ... an understanding of their role within the society."

    Fuck

    That

    Shit

    If a guy wrote a book bemoaning the fact that women weren't in the kitchen making him a sandwich he'd be burned at the stake.
    Interesting point. It's almost like the female author of that book wants to eat her cake and have it too. Saying that women have a narrow role in society that they have to follow would get her pilloried, and rightfully so. It's hypocritical to say that women can choose to be career-women or mothers (or something else) while men should be required to have an "understanding of their role within the society" that involves marriage and children by a certain age.

    And, to be honest, when it comes to marriage and children, guys have plenty of flexibility. They can wait until they're 35-40 and marry a woman in her 20's without any real issues regarding fertility. Historically, it's been pretty common that men waited until they were established in life and then married a younger woman. It's only relatively recently that the norm has become marrying someone of a similar age.

    Pretty much this. The "concerns" being raised largely seem to be filtered through the lens that women should be able to have it all in all endeavors in life, even when it comes to the behavior of their partner and said partner's perceived role in society. Just as she wouldn't accept some one suggesting that women need to have "an understanding of their role in society", she probably also wouldn't accept the aspects of the traditional male role in society that she finds offensive. This kind of thing is akin to some neckbeard whining that all women are worthless because he can't find one who looks like a centerfold and is sexually available, but simultaneously isn't put off by his odious personal habits and also shares his deep appreciation for Naruto.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


    Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    It's an unexpected consequence of the feminist movement. This isn't a slight at the feminist movement. While it enabled women to seek out something beyond being a housewife, it enabled the obverse for men. Men don't have to be the breadwinners any more. We can dick around.

    The second article in the OP implies the men who dick around aren't men anymore. Some women who were shaped by the constant "I am a strong and independent woman" mantras of feminism must not be able to turn the mantra's echo off in their minds - they are more disgusted with seeing any adult be dependent on another than should be reasonable.

    Will the feminist movement branch out and now start uplifting men as well as women?

    emnmnme on
  • DecomposeyDecomposey Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    The implication that a male is not 'grown up' unless he's secured a mate and started fathering children is as insulting and sexist as someone telling me I'm not a grown up yet because I've chosen not to fire spawn out of my nethers like a baby gatling gun.

    It seems the author misses something. She claims men find themselves optional to family life, with out stopping to consider if it's not family life that is the option. An option many decide not to take.

    Decomposey on
    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    emnmnme wrote: »
    It's an unexpected consequence of the feminist movement. This isn't a slight at the feminist movement. While it enabled women to seek out something beyond being a housewife, it enabled the obverse for men. Men don't have to be the breadwinners any more. We can dick around.

    The second article in the OP implies the men who dick around aren't men anymore. Some women who were shaped by the constant "I am a strong and independent woman" mantras of feminism must not be able to turn the mantra's echo off in their minds - they are more disgusted with seeing any adult be dependent on another than should be reasonable.

    Will the feminist movement branch out and now start uplifting men as well as women?
    Reading the actual excerpt from her book was nails-on-chalkboard bad.

    matt has a problem on
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  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2011
    People like this shouldn't even be given the recognition of a thread on a moderately sized web forum.

    JustinSane07 on
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    I mean seriously?
    "We are sick of hooking up with guys," she writes, and by "guys" she means males who are not boys or men but something else entirely. "Guys talk about Star Wars like it's not a movie made for people half their age; a guy's idea of a perfect night is to hang around the PlayStation with his bandmates, or a trip to Vegas with his college friends. Guys feed you Chipotle and ride their bikes in traffic. They are more like the kids we babysat than the dads who drove us home." One female reviewer of Klausner's touchingly funny book wrote, "I had to stop several times while reading and think: wait, did I date this same guy?"

    Translation: "I've made bad choices about who I've dated and I'm seeking to blame society for this."

    Fuck everything about this.

    matt has a problem on
    nibXTE7.png
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Compared to what it must be like dating that person, stabbing myself in the dick is a "perfect night".

    matt has a problem on
    nibXTE7.png
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Pretty much this. The "concerns" being raised largely seem to be filtered through the lens that women should be able to have it all in all endeavors in life, even when it comes to the behavior of their partner and said partner's perceived role in society. Just as she wouldn't accept some one suggesting that women need to have "an understanding of their role in society", she probably also wouldn't accept the aspects of the traditional male role in society that she finds offensive. This kind of thing is akin to some neckbeard whining that all women are worthless because he can't find one who looks like a centerfold and is sexually available, but simultaneously isn't put off by his odious personal habits and also shares his deep appreciation for Naruto.
    Her position is reflective of the attitude of a lot of women. They want life, and the men in their life, to follow their particular timetable. They'd be just as unhappy if the average guy was pushing them to get married and start having kids at age 21. A lot of professional, educated women have strong control-freak tendencies and expect everything in life to follow a certain checklist.

    There is also the question of fertility. An unmarried 35 year-old woman who wants to have kids will start to panic, as her fertility is on a downward slope at that point. Her 35 year-old male contemporary doesn't have the same biological concerns, and he has no real reason to worry about her issues. He can always go marry some younger woman in a couple of years if he wants kids.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    This kind of thing is akin to some neckbeard whining that all women are worthless because he can't find one who looks like a centerfold and is sexually available, but simultaneously isn't put off by his odious personal habits and also shares his deep appreciation for Naruto.

    Screw you, man! She'll answer my eHarmony profile any day now!

    /HOTPOCKET
    /NOMNOM

    Deebaser on
    YOLO. Swag. Whatever. Fuck it. Lets do this.
  • armageddonboundarmageddonbound Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    When do I get to complain that girl-women are only interested in the inane, such as shoes, purses, office gossip and that hip new little diner?

    armageddonbound on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    When do I get to complain that girl-women are only interested in the inane, such as shoes, purses, office gossip and that hip new little diner?

    *checksflowchart*

    OH, SNAP!

    mcdermott on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    I mean seriously?
    "We are sick of hooking up with guys," she writes, and by "guys" she means males who are not boys or men but something else entirely. "Guys talk about Star Wars like it's not a movie made for people half their age; a guy's idea of a perfect night is to hang around the PlayStation with his bandmates, or a trip to Vegas with his college friends. Guys feed you Chipotle and ride their bikes in traffic. They are more like the kids we babysat than the dads who drove us home." One female reviewer of Klausner's touchingly funny book wrote, "I had to stop several times while reading and think: wait, did I date this same guy?"

    Translation: "I've made bad choices about who I've dated and I'm seeking to blame society for this."

    Fuck everything about this.
    Honestly, are any of these things automatically indicative of an immature person? Adults can't like Star Wars, or be in a band, occasionally go to Vegas with old friends and commute by bike?

    This woman sounds like zero fun. Her idea of a fun time probably involves bed-skirt shopping at Bed Bath and Beyond, followed by some antiquing. She likely only gives blowjobs on birthdays.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    She has a MA in English Literature, I'm not sure how qualified that makes her to make sweeping generalizations based only upon what I can only assume are personal anecdotes.

    Frankly after reading a bit about her and reviews of her other works, I'm beginning to believe she really has no basis for any of her beliefs and doesn't really back up any of her "statistics." Like reading about how she doesn't think there is a marriage crisis (well, so long as you're a college educated, high income white woman; if you're black or poor then you don't even wait for the paint to dry to get out), she says that the number of white, college educated women getting a divorce has fallen, but then doesn't say whether or not the number getting married has increased, decreased or stayed the same.

    Invisible on
  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2011
    And she absolutely refuses to swallow so you have to get like, a washcloth or something.

    JustinSane07 on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Modern Man wrote: »
    I mean seriously?
    "We are sick of hooking up with guys," she writes, and by "guys" she means males who are not boys or men but something else entirely. "Guys talk about Star Wars like it's not a movie made for people half their age; a guy's idea of a perfect night is to hang around the PlayStation with his bandmates, or a trip to Vegas with his college friends. Guys feed you Chipotle and ride their bikes in traffic. They are more like the kids we babysat than the dads who drove us home." One female reviewer of Klausner's touchingly funny book wrote, "I had to stop several times while reading and think: wait, did I date this same guy?"

    Translation: "I've made bad choices about who I've dated and I'm seeking to blame society for this."

    Fuck everything about this.
    Honestly, are any of these things automatically indicative of an immature person? Adults can't like Star Wars, or be in a band, occasionally go to Vegas with old friends and commute by bike?

    Man, I kinda like Chipolte too. Though Cheesecake is better.

    From what I can tell, "guys" are just men who refuse to act like they're into everything she's into, and preferably only those things.
    This woman sounds like zero fun. Her idea of a fun time probably involves bed-skirt shopping at Bed Bath and Beyond, followed by some antiquing. She likely only gives blowjobs on birthdays.

    Anniversaries, too.

    mcdermott on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    When do I get to complain that girl-women are only interested in the inane, such as shoes, purses, office gossip and that hip new little diner?

    You don't. That's a sexist stereotype that belittles hard-working women who merely want to look decent and eat fish tacos at that diner one or two nights a week. Women are not vapid, women are strong and independent, women are strong and independent.

    emnmnme on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Looks like nearly everything I wanted to say was already said. The author is just gender-policing based on what she finds attractive in men. This article is flavored by a whole lot of sexism, a little bit of classism, and no small helping of narcissism.

    I do want to throw out there, though, that despite this article, adolescence in the first-world is taking longer than in prior generations. Part of this is because we spend more time in school before we can enter the workforce. Part of this is because we have higher expectations for "adulthood" now - it's not strictly unique to US, western europe, & Japan to expect each generation to live in a new home detached from prior generations, but it is a little unusual. In a lot of cultures, there's nothing juvenile at all about sharing a home with your parents (and/or your grandparents).

    This may be a good thing or a bad thing, but if it's a bad thing, it's certainly not a bad thing for the reasons described in the article.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    I mean seriously?
    "We are sick of hooking up with guys," she writes, and by "guys" she means males who are not boys or men but something else entirely. "Guys talk about Star Wars like it's not a movie made for people half their age; a guy's idea of a perfect night is to hang around the PlayStation with his bandmates, or a trip to Vegas with his college friends. Guys feed you Chipotle and ride their bikes in traffic. They are more like the kids we babysat than the dads who drove us home." One female reviewer of Klausner's touchingly funny book wrote, "I had to stop several times while reading and think: wait, did I date this same guy?"

    Translation: "I've made bad choices about who I've dated and I'm seeking to blame society for this."

    Fuck everything about this.

    Movies now have a maximum age limit as well as a minimum one? Star Wars is for kids? My girlfriend is going to be heartbroken to hear this! Video games are absolutely juevenille pursuits, despite research showing that women of all ages are picking up gaming of one sort or another in greater numbers every year? Why the hell would going to Vegas be a bad thing? What's wrong with Chipolte (as a quick bite to eat, not something I'd suggest for an anniversary or something)? Why is having a bike and riding it where it's supposed to be ridden a bad thing? Where else would one ride it? The sidewalk where it's not supposed to be?

    Also, that bit about being "more like the kids we babysat than the dads who drove us home" comes across as kind of creepy.

    Edit: gentlemen, let's not be uncouth about this. You know who you are.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    mcdermott wrote: »
    From what I can tell, "guys" are just men who refuse to act like they're into everything she's into, and preferably only those things.
    Yeah. In all fairness, this isn't an exclusively female character flaw. But it does seem to be much more common in women than men.

    Any guy who ends up involved with this woman will quickly find himself cut off and isolated from his friends and browbeaten into giving up his interests and hobbies. It's kind of a trope of movies and TV, and women who do that are portrayed in a mildly negative manner, while guys who do so are considered to be borderline abusive.
    Forar wrote: »
    Also, that bit about being "more like the kids we babysat than the dads who drove us home" comes across as kind of creepy.
    No kidding.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Of course, manly honor being attacked by an article attracts the male PA posters who disagree with it but I want to know what the lady PA posters think about this idea.

    emnmnme on
  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Pretty much this. The "concerns" being raised largely seem to be filtered through the lens that women should be able to have it all in all endeavors in life, even when it comes to the behavior of their partner and said partner's perceived role in society. Just as she wouldn't accept some one suggesting that women need to have "an understanding of their role in society", she probably also wouldn't accept the aspects of the traditional male role in society that she finds offensive. This kind of thing is akin to some neckbeard whining that all women are worthless because he can't find one who looks like a centerfold and is sexually available, but simultaneously isn't put off by his odious personal habits and also shares his deep appreciation for Naruto.
    Her position is reflective of the attitude of a lot of women. They want life, and the men in their life, to follow their particular timetable. They'd be just as unhappy if the average guy was pushing them to get married and start having kids at age 21. A lot of professional, educated women have strong control-freak tendencies and expect everything in life to follow a certain checklist.

    There is also the question of fertility. An unmarried 35 year-old woman who wants to have kids will start to panic, as her fertility is on a downward slope at that point. Her 35 year-old male contemporary doesn't have the same biological concerns, and he has no real reason to worry about her issues. He can always go marry some younger woman in a couple of years if he wants kids.

    Very true. I know more than a few of them. I guess I just find it striking how contradictory the whole thing is, because the kind of man who meets the requirements is much more likely to perceive himself as the dominant partner in a relationship and less likely to want to be in a relationship where the other party is trying to set the agenda.

    By way of analogy - in my household, I've always been the breadwinner, and in some ways the relationship is very traditional. My partner doesn't even drive a car. I pay all the bills and handle all the money, even her money. I've always pulled down a decent salary, and I'm headed back to school to get an MBA. But apparently I'm still a "boy" because my idea of a good time is yakking about Star Wars and video games while my buddies and I split a pizza (we don't have Chipolte around here) over a game of Dungeons and Dragons. Somehow, if I swapped that out for a game of golf with the exact same group of guys (because the biggest slacker is a radiology tech, and we've got a doctor and a lawyer in the group), I'd be a "man". It's a ridiculous standard.

    Definitely going to go home from work today and tell my significant other how much I love her, though.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


    Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Also what the fuck is a NEET

    Salvation122 on
    sig.png
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Also what the fuck is a NEET

    Yeah, I hate people that don't define uncommon acronyms.

    Not in Employment, Education, or Training.

    mcdermott on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Of course, manly honor being attacked by an article attracts the male PA posters who disagree with it but I want to know what the lady PA posters think about this idea.
    Fair's fair, there are plenty of undateable guys out there. But there are also plenty of undateable women, too. Character flaws know no gender bounds.

    The author seems to think that men are somehow worse than women when it comes to their maturity level, and that the level of male immaturity is approaching epidemic levels.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
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