I personally max Q first, but I am in general agreement with Rent
I would gladly give up my second blue buff for a good Anivia or Kassadin because their impact on the game with blue is much larger than mine with blue.
then again I generally dislike itemizing for mana and I think manamune Ezreal is stupid
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
no you couldn't because ww isn't a carry (unless you're doing like magewick) and the whole purpose of carries are high damage output
Warwick may not be a carry, but he CAN carry. Even if you're not going magewick. A lot of champs can carry that aren't classified as carries. Trundle, Cho, Mundo, Garen...
you can't solo dragon pre 6 as ww anyways, even with blue and red
and even at 6, dragon is super sketchy without minirazor
the main point though is there's no reason to start at blue as ww
biggest mistake first time jungle wws make, starting at blue
1) Yes you can, you can do it as early as 4 with minirazors you just need some lucky procs.
2)starting at blue makes your jungle faster since you can spam your Q for the extra damage
1) the jungle changes have made it impossible for ww to solo dragon at 4. it. is. impossible.
2) starting at minis makes your jungle faster, AND you'll gain more experience, since you'll have Q and W for blue, thus making it take less time and you'll do more damage and have more health, you'll have popped the minis so by the time you're done with wolves they'll have popped again, and you'll have blue at a more optimal time (you'll still have it for a good time after getting red, meaning you'll have stronger ganks with it)
oh also starting at minis prevents yourself from getting ganked at blue, which is where 90% of ganks happen
very, very few teams have presence of mind to gank at minis
no you couldn't because ww isn't a carry (unless you're doing like magewick) and the whole purpose of carries are high damage output
Warwick may not be a carry, but he CAN carry. Even if you're not going magewick. A lot of champs can carry that aren't classified as carries. Trundle, Cho, Mundo, Garen...
I agree with this. I played against a solo-mid WW the other day who built AP. He was really f-ing annoying due to his immense damage output.
2) starting at minis makes your jungle faster, AND you'll gain more experience, since you'll have Q and W for blue, thus making it take less time and you'll do more damage and have more health, you'll have popped the minis so by the time you're done with wolves they'll have popped again, and you'll have blue at a more optimal time (you'll still have it for a good time after getting red, meaning you'll have stronger ganks with it)
oh also starting at minis prevents yourself from getting ganked at blue, which is where 90% of ganks happen
very, very few teams have presence of mind to gank at minis
Problem with this is the other team is likely going to take your blue, so it won't be there for you to do.
you can't solo dragon pre 6 as ww anyways, even with blue and red
and even at 6, dragon is super sketchy without minirazor
the main point though is there's no reason to start at blue as ww
biggest mistake first time jungle wws make, starting at blue
1) Yes you can, you can do it as early as 4 with minirazors you just need some lucky procs.
2)starting at blue makes your jungle faster since you can spam your Q for the extra damage
1) the jungle changes have made it impossible for ww to solo dragon at 4. it. is. impossible.
2) starting at minis makes your jungle faster, AND you'll gain more experience, since you'll have Q and W for blue, thus making it take less time and you'll do more damage and have more health, you'll have popped the minis so by the time you're done with wolves they'll have popped again, and you'll have blue at a more optimal time (you'll still have it for a good time after getting red, meaning you'll have stronger ganks with it)
oh also starting at minis prevents yourself from getting ganked at blue, which is where 90% of ganks happen
very, very few teams have presence of mind to gank at minis
For ww I think blue/wolves/wraiths/red/golems is the best path with no smite. Buy cloth armor, 2 pots, and a ward. Use ward to prevent blue stealing/gank. You can gank at level 4 with roughly 70% life. If you can get a kill you can buy malreds + boots and own hard.
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no you couldn't because ww isn't a carry (unless you're doing like magewick) and the whole purpose of carries are high damage output
Warwick may not be a carry, but he CAN carry. Even if you're not going magewick. A lot of champs can carry that aren't classified as carries. Trundle, Cho, Mundo, Garen...
I agree with this. I played against a solo-mid WW the other day who built AP. He was really f-ing annoying due to his immense damage output.
I carried a 4v5 as WW. went 15/2/27 and was the only one on the team with a record that looked like that. If you can set up kills without dying, you can carry in my book
In your earlier post you mentioned Mini-Razor then Wriggles. I don't understand that logic at all. The point of both of those items is the minion proc, but you spend 525 more on Wriggles so you can get a reuseable ward. Go one or the other, but not both, to me that would completely gimp your later game items.
Had extreme success last night as a level 11 summoner doing the following:
ArP Red / Dodge Yellow / AS Blue / ArP Quint
6/0/5 (Enough to get one point in improved XP)
Mini-Golems (Level 2 Now) -> Wraiths -> Wolves -> Blue. I just don't have the runes to do Blue this early.
I felt kind of bad. At about 1 AM I got with a completely noob group that sent three top lane and 1 mid. I suggested that two from top go bottom lane, 1 at a bare minimum. Annie proceeds to "Help me kill Mini-golems." Prevents me from getting level 2 before wraiths. I then have to leech off of Ashe in mid to hit 2 to do Wraiths well enough. Proceed to Wolves and Blue, not looking at my minimap - they're both gone. I immediately assume we got counterjungled, as that's all fair in love and war. Until Level 6 Shen runs across my screen out of the top lane, sporting the blue buff, with 0 kills.
It was 1 AM. I was tired. I feel like a complete douchebag, hell, I am a douchebag, I told them all they could go fornicate with a railroad spike and quit at 7 minutes in.
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
no you turn mini razor into wriggles
or madreds
whatever works
also runeless you can start at blue as ww
like i'm nearly absolutely sure you can start at blue as runeless ww
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
okay running 11/0/0 masteries as jungle ww, with my jax runepage (Which is pretty much the exact opposite of a runepage you want to run as jungle ww, since it doesn't give any armor or health or cdr), running cloth + 5 pots (which is really the worst way to run jungle ww, blade + 1 pot is the way to go), I was able to down blue with one health pot with about 25% life remaining
this is not at 2, which would be the optimal and safe way, starting with my w
so yeah runeless ww starting at blue is totes possible
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
Also mini razor and wriggles are separate proc effects (last I checked) so it isn't completely stupid to get both
For ww I think blue/wolves/wraiths/red/golems is the best path with no smite.
No Smite = no ability to last-hit map objectives against an enemy jungler with Smite. Don't do it!
If you run smite its very hard to gank at level 4. Also smite is pretty useless late game. I understand that smite can help you with dragon or baron late, but if you are getting those stolen by someone with smite you probably have a lot bigger problems. Like not buying wards.
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
For ww I think blue/wolves/wraiths/red/golems is the best path with no smite.
No Smite = no ability to last-hit map objectives against an enemy jungler with Smite. Don't do it!
If you run smite its very hard to gank at level 4. Also smite is pretty useless late game. I understand that smite can help you with dragon or baron late, but if you are getting those stolen by someone with smite you probably have a lot bigger problems. Like not buying wards.
What do you guys run on your Junglers then? I've been alternating between Smite/Teleport, Smite/Flash, and Smite/Exhaust. Would love to hear the virtues of other methods. I'm just not convinced yet that I'd have the DPS to go to blue at level 1 without Smite and live to tell the tale.
Combine this with the fact that I'm a pansy and don't want to die at low levels because of how it completely dicks my Warwick for the rest of the game.
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
smite/flash is what i usually run on ww
some people run smite/ghost but I like the instant close flash provides
For ww I think blue/wolves/wraiths/red/golems is the best path with no smite.
No Smite = no ability to last-hit map objectives against an enemy jungler with Smite. Don't do it!
If you run smite its very hard to gank at level 4. Also smite is pretty useless late game. I understand that smite can help you with dragon or baron late, but if you are getting those stolen by someone with smite you probably have a lot bigger problems. Like not buying wards.
Please stop giving horrible advice.
1 copy of smite is practically required on both teams. Unless you do want to lose baron.
I have stolen baron so many times in so many games where the enemy team did not have smite, or improperly used it. There are a very few abilities that have the potential to do as much one shot damage as smite does. And in most cases they don't.
Baron control late game is one of the most important aspects. Not only does baron give 300 gold, it gives a huge boost to your teams stats, especially regen allowing a sustained push. Also smite lets you complete your jungle run faster, so not only will you be ganking earlier, you will be a higher comparative level when attempting to gank. Without smite you will have trouble keeping level with even the bottom lane with several junglers. And when you do go gank you might get countered by the enemy jungle, who will be a higher level than you. Or the enemy jungle ganked your bottom/top first, and you can only go there to stop them from pushing your tower.
TL;lDR
Smite is important on junglers, and it infact helps your ganking.
@rent I like ghost better simply because it helps you keep on people in teamfights through all the junk that gets tossed on you. And staying on people helps you sigificantly on warwick. I do like flash though and it lets you pop next to someone with red buff on. So ghost is inferior for dropping a gank on someone. (Also flash, ult is nice to get around a ward you know is placed). Matter of preference I think.
so if the other team is trash talking when you're getting rolled /mute enemy is such a good decision. then it's just like they're circling jerking each other.
I seem to have a lot of success starting at blue with Q and cloth armor + 5 pots when I can actually hit all 3 of the little shits. I can usually go all the way and get red at level 3. But after that I don't know if I should because I can't gank all that effectively without boots and I'm usually a little low on hp. Should I just go back, get boots, and then go gank?
I seem to have a lot of success starting at blue with Q and cloth armor + 5 pots when I can actually hit all 3 of the little shits. I can usually go all the way and get red at level 3. But after that I don't know if I should because I can't gank all that effectively without boots and I'm usually a little low on hp. Should I just go back, get boots, and then go gank?
It's best for Olaf to do his jungle at low health since it increases his attack speed due to his passive, so having low health while you complete your jungle isn't a bad thing and there is nothing wrong with backing and buying boots before you go ganking
Runes: HP, Armor, or Armor Pen quints; Armor Pen or Armor marks; Dodge, Armor, or Attack Speed Seals; Attack Speed or Magic Resist glyphs. They all work just fine, depending on what you want to do.
Masteries: 9/11/10 if I'm doing dodge seals or going against team autoattack, 1/19/10 for more defense, 21/0/9 if I'm feeling brave.
Spells: Smite and Ghost. I rarely trade Smite for Ignite if I'm doing ranked and the team needs it. I don't like Flash on WW, it can help surprise initiate but your ult is over before the rest of your team can arrive unless they're super on top of things (they won't be). It can let you dive, but you shouldn't be diving most of the time at your level/experience. It can let you escape, but you should ward or watch the map to avoid needing to escape. Ghost gives you really good mobility, which is awesome as a jungler. It lets you do all sorts of good things.
Skill order: W, Q, Q, E, Q, R; R>Q>W>E
Items:
Cloth Armor + 5 health potions
Madred's Razor
Boots 1
Wriggle's Lantern
Mercury Treads
Spirit Visage
Sunfire Cape
Guardian Angel
(Bloodrazor here if you're getting it)
Magic Resist Item of your choice
I buy defensive items whenever I need them, then finish their items later - Chainmail (eventually to Sunfire), Negatron (eventually to MR item), Null Mantle/Cloth Armor (eventually to Guardian Angel).
If they have a super beefy team AND if one or two other teammates cannot or will not get Madred's Bloodrazor, get it instead of Wriggles but not until you're at least done with your Sunfire Cape and either Null Mantle or Negatron Cloak. I don't bother with it otherwise.
Jungle route:
Blue (have middle leash it for you), Wolves, Wraiths, Golems, Red, Gank. Your goal is to get the enemy to blow summoners and/or leave lane. You generally don't get a kill here, so don't waste much time. Recall, buy some items, run through the jungle again, hit 6, then start getting kills.
Alternate jungle route if you're slower or at low health:
Blue, Wolves, Wraiths, Golems, Recall to buy, Wolves, Wraiths, Golems, Red, Recall to buy, Gank.
Route that I find amusing v. someone who definitely starts at Blue:
Their golems, recall, ghost, Your golems, wraiths, wolves, blue, red, gank.
If you're initiating as WW, make it VERY VERY CLEAR to your team that you will ult on Squishy1 or Squishy2 the moment they are in range of you, and that your team has about 2 seconds to kill them or stun them again, and that if they do so your team will probably win the team fight, so your team should stay right on your ass during the pre-teamfight skirmish.
tl;dr - Tankwick is the man. If you want to build AP play a mage, if you want to build AS play a ranged carry.
even if you don't like getting MBR for some strange reason(I get it right after mercs, he doesn't need tank gear early on) the recurve bow that builds into madred's is far more useful than wriggles since it gives you a big damage increase on top of upping your madred procs and passive, and builds into an end game item instead of nothing. When I get that I pretty much know we can take dragon if we have not already.
even if you don't like getting MBR for some strange reason(I get it right after mercs, he doesn't need tank gear early on) the recurve bow that builds into madred's is far more useful than wriggles since it gives you a big damage increase on top of upping your madred procs and passive, and builds into an end game item instead of nothing. When I get that I pretty much know we can take dragon if we have not already.
The only thing I don't like about MBR right now is it's prohibitive early cost. When I do get it though, I can usually clean up for a while, enough to buy SV outright and the first three components of GA. It just torques me off because I'm rarely, rarely ever in a game that lasts long enough for me to get 1/2 way through my build. In the rare few, I just dominate the other team late game with MBR/Mercs/SV/GA/Wit'sEnd/Randuins or Bloodthirster.
I do occasionally get SV before finishing MBR though, typically if I'm up against Nunu or MF or Annie, I find they do some weird shit to me that burns.
I can't convince myself to buy Wriggles however. Even if I use the ward every 3 minutes for 30 minutes, I'd save at best 250 gold by the end of the game. I'd rather put that money towards something else and use regular wards.
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I would gladly give up my second blue buff for a good Anivia or Kassadin because their impact on the game with blue is much larger than mine with blue.
then again I generally dislike itemizing for mana and I think manamune Ezreal is stupid
Warwick may not be a carry, but he CAN carry. Even if you're not going magewick. A lot of champs can carry that aren't classified as carries. Trundle, Cho, Mundo, Garen...
1) Yes you can, you can do it as early as 4 with minirazors you just need some lucky procs.
2)starting at blue makes your jungle faster since you can spam your Q for the extra damage
I can start literally anywhere in the jungle with WW and make it work, but I usually start at blue. I've had it stolen too many times.
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Now I need to really buckle down and master some characters.
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1) the jungle changes have made it impossible for ww to solo dragon at 4. it. is. impossible.
2) starting at minis makes your jungle faster, AND you'll gain more experience, since you'll have Q and W for blue, thus making it take less time and you'll do more damage and have more health, you'll have popped the minis so by the time you're done with wolves they'll have popped again, and you'll have blue at a more optimal time (you'll still have it for a good time after getting red, meaning you'll have stronger ganks with it)
oh also starting at minis prevents yourself from getting ganked at blue, which is where 90% of ganks happen
very, very few teams have presence of mind to gank at minis
Did you consume more alcohol after the bot-game?
I agree with this. I played against a solo-mid WW the other day who built AP. He was really f-ing annoying due to his immense damage output.
Problem with this is the other team is likely going to take your blue, so it won't be there for you to do.
http://www.mediafire.com/?jjfmt5nhbw56wcl
replay of me doing Dragon as WW at 4 with red buff
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I was Maokai, Neal was Garen, we're facing Lux and Amumu.
Lux is super low on life, running away, sappling JUST comes off coolodown.
I fling it, good lord I fling it for all I'm worth.
"Lux has been slain!"
"mmmm BOOOM!"
I carried a 4v5 as WW. went 15/2/27 and was the only one on the team with a record that looked like that. If you can set up kills without dying, you can carry in my book
I assume you're just runing wrong.
No Smite = no ability to last-hit map objectives against an enemy jungler with Smite. Don't do it!
In your earlier post you mentioned Mini-Razor then Wriggles. I don't understand that logic at all. The point of both of those items is the minion proc, but you spend 525 more on Wriggles so you can get a reuseable ward. Go one or the other, but not both, to me that would completely gimp your later game items.
Had extreme success last night as a level 11 summoner doing the following:
ArP Red / Dodge Yellow / AS Blue / ArP Quint
6/0/5 (Enough to get one point in improved XP)
Mini-Golems (Level 2 Now) -> Wraiths -> Wolves -> Blue. I just don't have the runes to do Blue this early.
I felt kind of bad. At about 1 AM I got with a completely noob group that sent three top lane and 1 mid. I suggested that two from top go bottom lane, 1 at a bare minimum. Annie proceeds to "Help me kill Mini-golems." Prevents me from getting level 2 before wraiths. I then have to leech off of Ashe in mid to hit 2 to do Wraiths well enough. Proceed to Wolves and Blue, not looking at my minimap - they're both gone. I immediately assume we got counterjungled, as that's all fair in love and war. Until Level 6 Shen runs across my screen out of the top lane, sporting the blue buff, with 0 kills.
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
It was 1 AM. I was tired. I feel like a complete douchebag, hell, I am a douchebag, I told them all they could go fornicate with a railroad spike and quit at 7 minutes in.
or madreds
whatever works
also runeless you can start at blue as ww
like i'm nearly absolutely sure you can start at blue as runeless ww
also run armor over dodge yellows
more like best killsteal ever
you probably don't know this but I ignited the bitch, son
gotta admit that was a sweetass sapling toss though
"Was cursing, in broken english at his team, and at our team. made fun of dead family members and mentioned he had sex with a dog."
"Hope he dies tbh but a ban would do."
this is not at 2, which would be the optimal and safe way, starting with my w
so yeah runeless ww starting at blue is totes possible
just mostly
akali's mark isn't a debuff
it is literally just a mark she can proc for more damage
so, no
really? armor pen reds, armor yellows, cdr blues and quints is my way to go
If you run smite its very hard to gank at level 4. Also smite is pretty useless late game. I understand that smite can help you with dragon or baron late, but if you are getting those stolen by someone with smite you probably have a lot bigger problems. Like not buying wards.
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what? no it's not
so many map objectives which benefit from smite
What do you guys run on your Junglers then? I've been alternating between Smite/Teleport, Smite/Flash, and Smite/Exhaust. Would love to hear the virtues of other methods. I'm just not convinced yet that I'd have the DPS to go to blue at level 1 without Smite and live to tell the tale.
Combine this with the fact that I'm a pansy and don't want to die at low levels because of how it completely dicks my Warwick for the rest of the game.
"Was cursing, in broken english at his team, and at our team. made fun of dead family members and mentioned he had sex with a dog."
"Hope he dies tbh but a ban would do."
some people run smite/ghost but I like the instant close flash provides
better for tower diving too
Please stop giving horrible advice.
1 copy of smite is practically required on both teams. Unless you do want to lose baron.
I have stolen baron so many times in so many games where the enemy team did not have smite, or improperly used it. There are a very few abilities that have the potential to do as much one shot damage as smite does. And in most cases they don't.
Baron control late game is one of the most important aspects. Not only does baron give 300 gold, it gives a huge boost to your teams stats, especially regen allowing a sustained push. Also smite lets you complete your jungle run faster, so not only will you be ganking earlier, you will be a higher comparative level when attempting to gank. Without smite you will have trouble keeping level with even the bottom lane with several junglers. And when you do go gank you might get countered by the enemy jungle, who will be a higher level than you. Or the enemy jungle ganked your bottom/top first, and you can only go there to stop them from pushing your tower.
TL;lDR
Smite is important on junglers, and it infact helps your ganking.
@rent I like ghost better simply because it helps you keep on people in teamfights through all the junk that gets tossed on you. And staying on people helps you sigificantly on warwick. I do like flash though and it lets you pop next to someone with red buff on. So ghost is inferior for dropping a gank on someone. (Also flash, ult is nice to get around a ward you know is placed). Matter of preference I think.
I seem to have a lot of success starting at blue with Q and cloth armor + 5 pots when I can actually hit all 3 of the little shits. I can usually go all the way and get red at level 3. But after that I don't know if I should because I can't gank all that effectively without boots and I'm usually a little low on hp. Should I just go back, get boots, and then go gank?
It's best for Olaf to do his jungle at low health since it increases his attack speed due to his passive, so having low health while you complete your jungle isn't a bad thing and there is nothing wrong with backing and buying boots before you go ganking
I run flash on warwick for those sexy flash ults on that ashe that thinks she can dance around in front shooting off volleys. not this time
Masteries: 9/11/10 if I'm doing dodge seals or going against team autoattack, 1/19/10 for more defense, 21/0/9 if I'm feeling brave.
Spells: Smite and Ghost. I rarely trade Smite for Ignite if I'm doing ranked and the team needs it. I don't like Flash on WW, it can help surprise initiate but your ult is over before the rest of your team can arrive unless they're super on top of things (they won't be). It can let you dive, but you shouldn't be diving most of the time at your level/experience. It can let you escape, but you should ward or watch the map to avoid needing to escape. Ghost gives you really good mobility, which is awesome as a jungler. It lets you do all sorts of good things.
Skill order: W, Q, Q, E, Q, R; R>Q>W>E
Items:
Cloth Armor + 5 health potions
Madred's Razor
Boots 1
Wriggle's Lantern
Mercury Treads
Spirit Visage
Sunfire Cape
Guardian Angel
(Bloodrazor here if you're getting it)
Magic Resist Item of your choice
I buy defensive items whenever I need them, then finish their items later - Chainmail (eventually to Sunfire), Negatron (eventually to MR item), Null Mantle/Cloth Armor (eventually to Guardian Angel).
If they have a super beefy team AND if one or two other teammates cannot or will not get Madred's Bloodrazor, get it instead of Wriggles but not until you're at least done with your Sunfire Cape and either Null Mantle or Negatron Cloak. I don't bother with it otherwise.
Jungle route:
Blue (have middle leash it for you), Wolves, Wraiths, Golems, Red, Gank. Your goal is to get the enemy to blow summoners and/or leave lane. You generally don't get a kill here, so don't waste much time. Recall, buy some items, run through the jungle again, hit 6, then start getting kills.
Alternate jungle route if you're slower or at low health:
Blue, Wolves, Wraiths, Golems, Recall to buy, Wolves, Wraiths, Golems, Red, Recall to buy, Gank.
Route that I find amusing v. someone who definitely starts at Blue:
Their golems, recall, ghost, Your golems, wraiths, wolves, blue, red, gank.
If you're initiating as WW, make it VERY VERY CLEAR to your team that you will ult on Squishy1 or Squishy2 the moment they are in range of you, and that your team has about 2 seconds to kill them or stun them again, and that if they do so your team will probably win the team fight, so your team should stay right on your ass during the pre-teamfight skirmish.
tl;dr - Tankwick is the man. If you want to build AP play a mage, if you want to build AS play a ranged carry.
The only thing I don't like about MBR right now is it's prohibitive early cost. When I do get it though, I can usually clean up for a while, enough to buy SV outright and the first three components of GA. It just torques me off because I'm rarely, rarely ever in a game that lasts long enough for me to get 1/2 way through my build. In the rare few, I just dominate the other team late game with MBR/Mercs/SV/GA/Wit'sEnd/Randuins or Bloodthirster.
I do occasionally get SV before finishing MBR though, typically if I'm up against Nunu or MF or Annie, I find they do some weird shit to me that burns.
I can't convince myself to buy Wriggles however. Even if I use the ward every 3 minutes for 30 minutes, I'd save at best 250 gold by the end of the game. I'd rather put that money towards something else and use regular wards.
I'm too new to know you, but considering the general attitude on the forums towards you, apparently that isn't a tough accomplishment?