If they all just up and leave, as previously mentioned, then you have a city left in anarchy with 90% of the ruling body or more dead in the conflict. Again, another reason why just killing them all in Annulment is preferable. Not to mention there is the issue of, should they all up and leave, where is such a large body of mages going to go with their magical caravan of supplies capable of supporting such a procession? Elsewhere in the Free Marches? Probably not, there are still other Templars in the region along with city representatives willing to assist. Towards Orlais? No, terrible idea. Tevinter? Ding ding ding, we have our most probable outcome. Bearing in mind that not amongst their suite of abilities is seeing the future (and thus being aware there would be uprisings to support their own, nevermind the logistics of meeting up with them) Tevinter would be their most likely destination.
No I am not suggesting dealing with the mages is easy, but it is necessary. They're a danger to themselves and to the world. Sadly, super powers aren't really all that much of a boon to society in practice. A cancer, yes, a boon no.
About the whole end decision and which is right...
We know from the Band Of Three messages that Kirkwall (and the surrounding area in general if the Bone Pit and Sundermount are any indication) is a very poor choice to host a Circle thanks to all the crap that the Tevinter mages did to the Veil prior to their ousting. But does any character in-game know this or have found/read these discoveries? Most likely no. What do the people know for sure?
1) Most Kirkwall mages tend to jump to Blood Magic and/or demons pretty quick, more so then any other place so far.
2) The Templars tend to have the city in a grip also more so then other locations. I haven't played DA:O yet but I haven't heard of any city/town in Fereldan or elsewhere where the Templars actually offed it's leader and put up one with less guts to challenge them.
Both sides have their good and bad points but in the end (barring any proper neutral choice), I still have to side with the mages. The people want blood? Then you take the responsible party, drag them to a public place, invite the whole town as well as representatives from the main Chantry branch if need be and then EXECUTE THE GUY WHO DID IT. And if you're still 'ehnnn' about the mages, you drag them off to some remote place (like the prison mentioned in the Mage Origin) and check them extensively. Yes, it's the mages' fault. And it's the Templars' fault (well, mainly Meredith's). But mainly it's Kirkwall's.
If what Anders did isn't justification for a Rite of Anulment I don't know what the fuck is
except he's not even a cirlce mage and has nothing to do with the circle....
Doesn't really matter.
Social realities don't just cease to exist because you don't like them. The Chantry going boom only has a few outcomes. Either A) The Templars declare the Rite of Annulment on a heavily compromised Circle or A rioting populace demands the mages be done away with now that Anders has reminded everyone why they're locked away in the first place (why hello there building disintegrating nukes!) and forces the issue.
In any circumstance in which the Mages win, you have a populace that hates and fears said Mages under the thumb of a compromised Circle. "Oh but you don't know how many are evil" who the fuck cares given how much damage just a few Blood Mages can do unchecked? Not to mention the more important issue: A Divine March.
Ultimately the death of the mages is in the best interests of Kirkwall as a whole. Tough shit, unstable living bioweapons.
What's laugh-worthy is that you assume they can all be killed.
Once the mages 86 all the phylacteries, have fun tracking them. What are the "Divine" going to march on exactly?
Your entire logical premise is faulty. You assume that mages are an underclass that can be kicked around once they rise up. If you pay attention to the epilogue, you'll realize this is not the case.
It's not that the mages can or cannot be contained, it's than an Exalted March would start by butchering the population of Kirkwall so that they can go, "Well, there are no more mages here! ...Or anyone else for that matter... Moving On!"
It's kinda like the Bhelen/Harrowmont choice in DA:O. On first brush, seems like the Mages are the ones that should be supported, because Meredith has obviously gone batshit by this point and calls annument on a Circle for an action caused by an apostate who was right there for you to execute/tranquil on the spot... thinking about what happens after however, it's politicaly better to side with the Templars, curb them from slaying those that don't deserve it, and be able to report to the Chantry that Kirkwall now has a clean bill of health, instead of overthrowing the local Templar Order, and in doing so, basicly ask the Chantry to go [strike]Extermanatus[/strike] Exalted March on Kirkwall.
...Of course, by the end of the day, all the insane shit that happens pretty much makes the point moot beyond philisophical and moral arguments :P
If you actually joined the Templar's side you can persuade them to not kill all the mages and spare those that didn't use blood magic to defend themselves.
Plus the resolution of the act 3 storyline from the Templar's side makes so much more sense, and you get to be the Viscount of Kirkwall.
I believe the Templar choice is the correct choice.
Instead of constantly being wishy-washy and vacillating between both sides, Hawke should just have come down hard on both of them, either to get them to get along or to smack them into submission. Hawke already has the support of the nobility following his defeat of the Qunari, the support of a sizable portion of the underworld through Varric, the respect of Cullen and some templars, possibly Elthina's tacit approval of Hawke as an alternative to the Meredith-Orsino feud, and a badass bunch of crazy mages/warriors/rogues. Hawke and his/her fellows are well-nigh unstoppable.
Yet by Act 3, he/she has been sitting on his/her hands for three years, doing nothing about the power vacuum following the Viscount's death, when the position as Champion could clearly be leveraged on. Rather than being presented with a binary choice at the end-game, Hawke should just have rallied the nobility, gathered his party and ground both sides into submission. No more boom.
man anders. if you played awakening and enjoyed having anders and justice as companions in that game [strike]the ending to[/strike] most of what he does in DA2 is just kinda depressing
If what Anders did isn't justification for a Rite of Anulment I don't know what the fuck is
If you talk to Kerras in the Gallows, he'll say Meredith already pleaded to the Divine to use the Rite of Annulment. What Anders did was plain wrong, but Meredith's mind was already set to annihilate the mages, she just used Anders' action as an excuse to do it right then and there without permission.
About the whole end decision and which is right...
We know from the Band Of Three messages that Kirkwall (and the surrounding area in general if the Bone Pit and Sundermount are any indication) is a very poor choice to host a Circle thanks to all the crap that the Tevinter mages did to the Veil prior to their ousting. But does any character in-game know this or have found/read these discoveries? Most likely no. What do the people know for sure?
1) Most Kirkwall mages tend to jump to Blood Magic and/or demons pretty quick, more so then any other place so far.
2) The Templars tend to have the city in a grip also more so then other locations. I haven't played DA:O yet but I haven't heard of any city/town in Fereldan or elsewhere where the Templars actually offed it's leader and put up one with less guts to challenge them.
Both sides have their good and bad points but in the end (barring any proper neutral choice), I still have to side with the mages. The people want blood? Then you take the responsible party, drag them to a public place, invite the whole town as well as representatives from the main Chantry branch if need be and then EXECUTE THE GUY WHO DID IT. And if you're still 'ehnnn' about the mages, you drag them off to some remote place (like the prison mentioned in the Mage Origin) and check them extensively. Yes, it's the mages' fault. And it's the Templars' fault (well, mainly Meredith's). But mainly it's Kirkwall's.
This is a good point. The Veil has been so thinned out in Kirkwall that corruption of mages is almost inevitable since Demons and Spirits have such easy access to try and tempt them. Hell Multiple super powerful demons are resting below KirkWall itself. Even though since I am the player I have access to information those in the game world don´t but Hawke should take the information he has found from the Band Of Three and other places and inform the people that the circle needs to be moved to a more secure location. No prison walls can contain a persons dreams so physically containing the mages isn´t going to be as effective as moving them to a place where demons have a harder time tempting them.
PWN_JuiCe_SuCKa on
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
Honestly, I kind of liked the whole end choice.
Mainly because
at the end of the day, it wasn't really a choice. Everything was going to hell in a handbasket and you were basically doing what you thought was best.
I can't say there was really a "best" outcome in that situation, just one that was. I think having something you can't just fix with CHARISMA! is pretty cool.
Dragkonias on
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
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Captain ElevenThe last card is a kronkRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
I wish the end would have a "screw you all" option.
Because honestly, just a bit into act III and I'm seriously ready to say screw the Templars AND the Circle. Kill 'em all and let the Fade sort 'em out.
So I'm playing Mage Hawke/Merril/Fenris/Isabella on hard. I'm deep in Act 2 and I'm busy with the bar fight in the Hanged Man. So I'm tossing dudes around like ragdolls with Mage Hawke while my party beats on the enemy leader dude. I'm flipping blokes, bouncing em, having a good time...so I turn around and there's my entire party: still beating on that one single solitary dude. And that's when it hits me: When some random barfly that means nothing at all to the setting has more hp than my entire party combined (twice over) then it kinda destroys the experience for me. Hard isn't so hard that it's really a headache but man, it totally wrecks that feeling of being a badass that you get by tearing through swarms of baddies like you're a freaking hurricane. And that's 99% of the fun of this combat system.
I dropped the difficulty back to normal and then spent the next 3 hours blissfully murdering everything in stylish ways. I haven't looked back since.
Where are you all getting that all of Kirkwall will be slaughtered by the Chantry if they don't invoke the rite of annulment? Cassandra's questioning happens three years after act 3, and if you side with the mages she doesn't mention anything about Kirkwall being slaughtered. The thing you're certain would happen DIDN'T happen.
Where are you all getting that all of Kirkwall will be slaughtered by the Chantry if they don't invoke the rite of annulment? Cassandra's questioning happens three years after act 3, and if you side with the mages she doesn't mention anything about Kirkwall being slaughtered. The thing you're certain would happen DIDN'T happen.
In Sebastian's last personal quest, the Divine has sent an agent to Kirkwall to assess the situation and that agent seems very certain that there will be an Exalted March on the city if the situation with the mages is not resolved and especially if the city were to fall to magic. To the point where the clergy are told to pack up their chantry's sacred relics and make for the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux.
Where are you all getting that all of Kirkwall will be slaughtered by the Chantry if they don't invoke the rite of annulment? Cassandra's questioning happens three years after act 3, and if you side with the mages she doesn't mention anything about Kirkwall being slaughtered. The thing you're certain would happen DIDN'T happen.
In Sebastian's last personal quest, the Divine has sent an agent to Kirkwall to assess the situation and seems very certain that there will be an Exalted March on the city if the situation with the mages is not resolved and especially if the city were to fall to magic. To the point where the clergy are told to pack up their chantry's sacred relics and make for the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
Where are you all getting that all of Kirkwall will be slaughtered by the Chantry if they don't invoke the rite of annulment? Cassandra's questioning happens three years after act 3, and if you side with the mages she doesn't mention anything about Kirkwall being slaughtered. The thing you're certain would happen DIDN'T happen.
In Sebastian's last personal quest, the Divine has sent an agent to Kirkwall to assess the situation and seems very certain that there will be an Exalted March on the city if the situation with the mages is not resolved and especially if the city were to fall to magic. To the point where the clergy are told to pack up their chantry's sacred relics and make for the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux.
Oooooooooo...
Damn that DLC!!!
Yeah, looking back on it, I'm really surprised that what, to me, is such an important piece of information was hidden away in DLC rather than being part of the main game. That piece of information is vital to me in regards to which side is better for the people of Kirkwall as a whole.
Fuck Kirkwall. Mage Liberation! Whatever happens to Kirkwall is on the heads of the Templars and their chantry masters who turned it into a prison camp. We will have freedom or we'll bury your precious little world in blood and demons, you oppressive assholes.
Fuck Kirkwall. Mage Liberation! Whatever happens to Kirkwall is on the heads of the Templars and their chantry masters who turned it into a prison camp. We will have freedom or we'll bury your precious little world in blood and demons, you oppressive assholes.
DA3 has the potential to be mega epic.
Yeah, I like where DA2 left off.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
We will have freedom or we'll bury your precious little world in blood and demons, you oppressive assholes.
Actually, that's what happens when they do have freedom.
Utterly debatable, especially since templar control seems to act as catalyst for mages to go bad on a regular basis anyway. Maybe mages would chill out if, you know, they weren't being kept under lock and key, watched 24/7, threated with mental neutering and death every other week of their lives. Also, if mages are really that dangerous (one rogue mage destroys towns! aiieee!) then honestly: open war with them is an insane idea. Even if you beat them on the battlefield you'll be chasing bitter, spiteful mage-terrorists for the rest of your goddamn days. Hope you build your guardhouses, palaces, templar barracks, town halls and churches out of explosion-proof stone, lads.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
Yea mages aren't so bad. Turning 1000 innocent people into magic kool-aid to fuel your new magic spell is totally fine. It's probably the best way to get the mage chicks swooning.
Lanrutcon: The Tevinter Imperium, you know the place that still has slaves, they are ruled by mages.
That worked out well for Fenris.
you're twisting that argument, I find.
No one is saying mages can't be assholes.
The tevinter imperium demonstrates, however, that mages can live outside of a circle and not destroy villages left right and center or use blood magic every hour.
the chantry is wrong and a hoax.
mage liberation front right here bitches
Blood comes from people. Put people together and they make more people, and therefore more blood. Tevinter magisters should be applauded for their efficient use of a renewable resource while at the same time discouraging the perpetuation of an inferior breed, ie. non-mages.
Most everyone seems to be going toward the polar ends of what should be done with the mages. "The mages must be caged!" "The mages must be completely free!" Why not a balance? Give them some freedoms, let them have families and leave the Circle for extended periods of time, but continue to make phylacteries, have a better education system, make sure they check in and have templars go out and monitor them every now and again, et cetera. Stuff like that.
And so I hope that BioWare will give us some kind of peaceful option in the end instead of detonating one group or the other.
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
The Magisters control the populace by infiltrating their dreams and mind controlling them. They don't need to nuke towns to be a danger.
bullshit.
A) dreamers are rare.
b) just because dreamers *can* mind control or kill people in their sleep doesn't mean they do it all the time
and besides, you're not changing the argument. some mages are bound to be assholes. And there's nothing stopping a dreamer from taking a circle and its templars apart.
The Magisters control the populace by infiltrating their dreams and mind controlling them. They don't need to nuke towns to be a danger.
bullshit.
A) dreamers are rare.
b) just because dreamers *can* mind control or kill people in their sleep doesn't mean they do it all the time
and besides, you're not changing the argument. some mages are bound to be assholes. And there's nothing stopping a dreamer from taking a circle and its templars apart.
go polish some helmets, templar scum
You don't have to be a dreamer to put yourself into someone else's dream, dude.
That's...kinda what you did in both Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2.
The game makes it pretty clear that Kirkwall mages were driven to insanity and desperation by unnecessarily abusive templar behavior. Mentally-ill-sociopath Quentin was pretty much the only person who was just an innately evil asshole.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
The Magisters control the populace by infiltrating their dreams and mind controlling them. They don't need to nuke towns to be a danger.
bullshit.
A) dreamers are rare.
b) just because dreamers *can* mind control or kill people in their sleep doesn't mean they do it all the time
and besides, you're not changing the argument. some mages are bound to be assholes. And there's nothing stopping a dreamer from taking a circle and its templars apart.
go polish some helmets, templar scum
You don't have to be a dreamer to put yourself into someone else's dream, dude.
That's...kinda what you did in both Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2.
and yet the only people that can mind control or slay other people in their sleep is a dreamer (according to the dalish keeper).
The game makes it pretty clear that Kirkwall mages were driven to insanity and desperation by the Tevinter mages of old ripping the Veil apart around the city. Mentally-ill-sociopath Quentin was pretty much the only person who was just an innately evil asshole.
Posts
No I am not suggesting dealing with the mages is easy, but it is necessary. They're a danger to themselves and to the world. Sadly, super powers aren't really all that much of a boon to society in practice. A cancer, yes, a boon no.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
1) Most Kirkwall mages tend to jump to Blood Magic and/or demons pretty quick, more so then any other place so far.
2) The Templars tend to have the city in a grip also more so then other locations. I haven't played DA:O yet but I haven't heard of any city/town in Fereldan or elsewhere where the Templars actually offed it's leader and put up one with less guts to challenge them.
Both sides have their good and bad points but in the end (barring any proper neutral choice), I still have to side with the mages. The people want blood? Then you take the responsible party, drag them to a public place, invite the whole town as well as representatives from the main Chantry branch if need be and then EXECUTE THE GUY WHO DID IT. And if you're still 'ehnnn' about the mages, you drag them off to some remote place (like the prison mentioned in the Mage Origin) and check them extensively. Yes, it's the mages' fault. And it's the Templars' fault (well, mainly Meredith's). But mainly it's Kirkwall's.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
It's kinda like the Bhelen/Harrowmont choice in DA:O. On first brush, seems like the Mages are the ones that should be supported, because Meredith has obviously gone batshit by this point and calls annument on a Circle for an action caused by an apostate who was right there for you to execute/tranquil on the spot... thinking about what happens after however, it's politicaly better to side with the Templars, curb them from slaying those that don't deserve it, and be able to report to the Chantry that Kirkwall now has a clean bill of health, instead of overthrowing the local Templar Order, and in doing so, basicly ask the Chantry to go [strike]Extermanatus[/strike] Exalted March on Kirkwall.
...Of course, by the end of the day, all the insane shit that happens pretty much makes the point moot beyond philisophical and moral arguments :P
Plus the resolution of the act 3 storyline from the Templar's side makes so much more sense, and you get to be the Viscount of Kirkwall.
I believe the Templar choice is the correct choice.
As for the end...
Yet by Act 3, he/she has been sitting on his/her hands for three years, doing nothing about the power vacuum following the Viscount's death, when the position as Champion could clearly be leveraged on. Rather than being presented with a binary choice at the end-game, Hawke should just have rallied the nobility, gathered his party and ground both sides into submission. No more boom.
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This made me laugh because, really, the best choices for the world are the ones we can't make.
I should probably finish my
God damn irrational people.
Mainly because
I can't say there was really a "best" outcome in that situation, just one that was. I think having something you can't just fix with CHARISMA! is pretty cool.
I am still getting new cheevos on my 3rd play.
Because honestly, just a bit into act III and I'm seriously ready to say screw the Templars AND the Circle. Kill 'em all and let the Fade sort 'em out.
I dropped the difficulty back to normal and then spent the next 3 hours blissfully murdering everything in stylish ways. I haven't looked back since.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Oooooooooo...
Damn that DLC!!!
Yeah, looking back on it, I'm really surprised that what, to me, is such an important piece of information was hidden away in DLC rather than being part of the main game. That piece of information is vital to me in regards to which side is better for the people of Kirkwall as a whole.
DA3 has the potential to be mega epic.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Yeah, I like where DA2 left off.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
Utterly debatable, especially since templar control seems to act as catalyst for mages to go bad on a regular basis anyway. Maybe mages would chill out if, you know, they weren't being kept under lock and key, watched 24/7, threated with mental neutering and death every other week of their lives. Also, if mages are really that dangerous (one rogue mage destroys towns! aiieee!) then honestly: open war with them is an insane idea. Even if you beat them on the battlefield you'll be chasing bitter, spiteful mage-terrorists for the rest of your goddamn days. Hope you build your guardhouses, palaces, templar barracks, town halls and churches out of explosion-proof stone, lads.
Dragon Age 3: The War on Arcane Terror.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
That worked out well for Fenris.
Even other mages can and will be sacrificed to power even more blood magic.
In the Tevinter Imperium, the streets are paved with blood, is what I'm saying.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
It's powered by the purest of McGuffin energies.
you're twisting that argument, I find.
No one is saying mages can't be assholes.
The tevinter imperium demonstrates, however, that mages can live outside of a circle and not destroy villages left right and center or use blood magic every hour.
the chantry is wrong and a hoax.
mage liberation front right here bitches
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
And so I hope that BioWare will give us some kind of peaceful option in the end instead of detonating one group or the other.
bullshit.
A) dreamers are rare.
b) just because dreamers *can* mind control or kill people in their sleep doesn't mean they do it all the time
and besides, you're not changing the argument. some mages are bound to be assholes. And there's nothing stopping a dreamer from taking a circle and its templars apart.
go polish some helmets, templar scum
That's...kinda what you did in both Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
and yet the only people that can mind control or slay other people in their sleep is a dreamer (according to the dalish keeper).