So go ahead and have a templar as their travel partner when they go off to visit their family. Make sure that they get rotated every so often so that the templar assigned to them can maintain objectivity.
By the same coin: Make sure that a solid screening process is done for the templars so that they aren't brutal dicks or weak willed or such.
Current status quo doesn't mean that the situation can't shift a little more in the favor of mages.
I agree with this. I believe I've already suggested as much, but villages instead of towers is simple poor planning.
You know, everyone is down on Anders, but it's like you don't realize...
The Templars kill everyone, innocent or not, in a circle every time they exercise the "Right of Annulment." Basically, they gave a name to their terrorism so that makes it nice and civil. Ha! They get a single dose of their own medicine and instead of seeing how awful they are, on the whole, they can only see the length of their own noses.
Qunari mages understand their place and would rather die than live without purpose and fall to demons. Those guys are doing something right.
You realize that doesn't just apply to mages, right? In the Qun, your assigned a role. If you don't like that role or want a different role, feel free to 'release' yourself. By "release yourself" I mean slit your own throat. Sounds like a lovely system. The freedom of the qun is the freedom from having to choose your own path.
As for the mage v. templar argument. I don't think any of the pro-mage people would think the templars should be disposed of all together. I think everyone here agrees that the templars are needed to police the mages. The only question is the extent of their control over the mages.
Citing Tivinter as justification that the circle is necessary is a logical fallacy. They're citing one example of mages taking over when not under strict control, and assuming it applies to the entire population.
Fuck Kirkwall. Mage Liberation! Whatever happens to Kirkwall is on the heads of the Templars and their chantry masters who turned it into a prison camp. We will have freedom or we'll bury your precious little world in blood and demons, you oppressive assholes.
DA3 has the potential to be mega epic.
Yeah, I like where DA2 left off.
What this all is reminding me of is the Christian Reformation.
I shudder at the thought of painting Anders in the roll of Martin Luther though.
You know, everyone is down on Anders, but it's like you don't realize...
The Templars kill everyone, innocent or not, in a circle every time they exercise the "Right of Annulment." Basically, they gave a name to their terrorism so that makes it nice and civil. Ha! They get a single dose of their own medicine and instead of seeing how awful they are, on the whole, they can only see the length of their own noses.
Pitiful.
...hey. That's something I hadn't thought of at all. Nice one!
(Note: not being sarcastic here, that's genuinely a comparison/perspective that I hadn't thought of.)
Citing Tivinter as justification that the circle is necessary is a logical fallacy. They're citing one example of mages taking over when not under strict control, and assuming it applies to the entire population.
Why wouldn't we assume that? Humans, when presented with power, will nine times out of ten apply that power towards obtaining more power. Mages are in a better position to do so and with more disastrous results as history has shown us. Mages don't need Circles being big meanies in order to be huge assholes. Tevinter predates the Chantry, by a lot!
This is an assumption predicated on human nature. Not an unreasonable one.
As for blood magic, I think it's a different level of magical might, if you will. I've always thought of it as such: common housewife mage A can toss a bit of fire. Cute. Not super city-level danger or anything. But should she use blood magic then suddenly she can enslave minds and summon nasties as if she were Evil Gandalf(tm).
There is an entry in the game that goes into more detail about blood magic. Virtually all magic can be boosted by its application and some spells can only be cast through its use.
Yeah, the right of annulment is their for when the situation is completely out of control and in the case of the ferelden circle: it was justified since most of the mages were either dead or converted. God only knows how bad the situation would have gotten if they had been left to their own devices.
Citing Tivinter as justification that the circle is necessary is a logical fallacy. They're citing one example of mages taking over when not under strict control, and assuming it applies to the entire population.
Why wouldn't we assume that? Humans, when presented with power, will nine times out of ten apply that power towards obtaining more power. Mages are in a better position to do so and with more disastrous results as history has shown us. Mages don't need Circles being big meanies in order to be huge assholes. Tevinter predates the Chantry, by a lot!
This is an assumption predicated on human nature. Not an unreasonable one.
You assume only the darker aspects of human nature exist in mages, then?
There are also aspirations of excellence, of helping your fellow man, of making the world a better place. Mages are also in a better position to do this.
Also, your argument is self-defeating. The Templars were given power, and look what happened? They became jailors, rapists, torturers and above all- murders. If you really want to get into how people can become evil, look at the Milgram experiment. Given even the hint of an authority structure, people will kill innocent people on that alone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
Setting up such a system is deplorable, further, it is stupid. You want to equate a mage's power with nukes? Fair enough. There's a reason you don't invade countries with nuclear capability.
Yeah, the right of annulment is their for when the situation is completely out of control and in the case of the ferelden circle: it was justified since most of the mages were either dead or converted. God only knows how bad the situation would have gotten if they had been left to their own devices.
Or, in the DA2 case, for when the Templars do want to appease the general populace instead of doing the right thing. Fuck the paperwork, let's just nuke it all, right? Right.
If something does go horribly wrong, it's a lot easier to keep it in a tower than in a village.
See: Fereldan Tower scenario.
as far as I remember both scenarios end with the hero walking in and handling business.
Number of fatalities and danger were about the same (Templar were about to get massively wiped any way since they were just letting demons amass power and until they bust out).
So really the sensible thing to do is invest in more heroes, because they go though demons like prunes though an old lady.
Okay, seriously, can we go one day without a Mage vs Templar argument. I'm quoting Varric here when I'm saying, "I don't know about you, but I'm sick of Mages and Templars."
Only the darker aspects in mages? No, but those aspects are inevitably going to come out and have considerably more unfortunate results than in normal people. Any system of authority can be abused, Templar abuses are unfortunate and yes inevitable.
They're considerably preferable to the inevitable abuses resulting from mage freedom. I've yet to hear a single argument for Mage freedom that doesn't ultimately boil down to "Well the current system is imperfect therefore lets let them free and hope that they won't be dicks".
Okay, seriously, can we go one day without a Mage vs Templar argument. I'm quoting Varric here when I'm saying, "I don't know about you, but I'm sick of Mages and Templars."
But it's the best thing about the DA setting! Come on, what else are we gonna talk about? slutty pirate queens? that goddamn Act 2 duel? enchantment?
Okay, seriously, can we go one day without a Mage vs Templar argument. I'm quoting Varric here when I'm saying, "I don't know about you, but I'm sick of Mages and Templars."
But it's the best thing about the DA setting! Come on, what else are we gonna talk about? slutty pirate queens? that goddamn Act 2 duel? enchantment?
Speaking of enchantment did anyone else catch this phrase
Sandal: One day the magic will come back - all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide.
Bodahn: Huh? What's this?
Sandal: When he rises, everyone will see.
Bodahn: By the ancestors! What has gotten into you, my boy?
Sandal: Enchantment!
Bodahn: That's more like it!
Only the darker aspects in mages? No, but those aspects are inevitably going to come out and have considerably more unfortunate results than in normal people. Any system of authority can be abused, Templar abuses are unfortunate and yes inevitable.
They're considerably preferable to the inevitable abuses resulting from mage freedom. I've yet to hear a single argument for Mage freedom that doesn't ultimately boil down to "Well the current system is imperfect therefore lets let them free and hope that they won't be dicks".
That's not much of a plan.
You're stopping too short. Setting up the Templar system leads inevitably to abuses, which leads inevitably to revolt. Those revolutionaries have nukes.
Inevitably, the system self-destructs. It cannot be used even in a practical sense.
Re: Enchantment-
That was actually the most interesting thing about DA:2 for me. Just that little snippet of conversation. I think it's rather obvious that Sandal is referring to Morrigan's God-Child. That's either going to be the protagonist or antagonist of DA:3, I would guess.
It'll be nice to see a resurgence of magic in a world. I don't know about you, but I tend to hate the "magic is fading!" tripe that's part of like, every fantasy setting ever. I realize it's an easy way for the author to tie a fantasy past to the present but A) You don't have to do that and the shit has been done a thousand times. Stop already.
Only the darker aspects in mages? No, but those aspects are inevitably going to come out and have considerably more unfortunate results than in normal people. Any system of authority can be abused, Templar abuses are unfortunate and yes inevitable.
They're considerably preferable to the inevitable abuses resulting from mage freedom. I've yet to hear a single argument for Mage freedom that doesn't ultimately boil down to "Well the current system is imperfect therefore lets let them free and hope that they won't be dicks".
That's not much of a plan.
You're stopping too short. Setting up the Templar system leads inevitably to abuses, which leads inevitably to revolt. Those revolutionaries have nukes.
Inevitably, the system self-destructs. It cannot be used even in a practical sense.
Re: Enchantment-
That was actually the most interesting thing about DA:2 for me. Just that little snippet of conversation. I think it's rather obvious that Sandal is referring to Morrigan's God-Child. That's either going to be the protagonist or antagonist of DA:3, I would guess.
It'll be nice to see a resurgence of magic in a world. I don't know about you, but I tend to hate the "magic is fading!" tripe that's part of like, every fantasy setting ever. I realize it's an easy way for the author to tie a fantasy past to the present but A) You don't have to do that and the shit has been done a thousand times. Stop already.
DA3 spoilers:
Sandal is Morrigan's time-traveling, enchantment-slinging, first-dwarven-mage God-Child. Dwarf was canon race for DA:O
This is in no way fuelled by my desire for Sandal to be the protagonist of the next game
Man, this game is pretty hard. I just beat Rock Wraith boss (barely). God, I hate the suicidal AI of my companions.
I was pretty pissed that Bethany dies from infection of the blight. Is there a way to save her?
I read somewhere that if you don't bring her along for the Deep Roads expedition she gets incarcerated by the templars and made into a tranquil mage of the circle; thus you lose her. So I bought her along instead of Anders (I wanted to bring Anders since he can actually revive people mid-battle).
This game has a steep curve when fighting an end chapter boss. This is my first play through and I chose to be a rogue on nightmare mode (no wussying out and lowering difficulty at any time). 500+ saves later and at the end boss of chapter one (I bought Fenris and Bethany) and promptly got murdered by that rock wraith. I was going to kite him back, then noticed "D'oh. Bastard put a magical forcefield to keep us in."
A short time later, he kills Fenris with ease, since I can't keep his health up with heals and potions on cooldown. I had to load an hour save prior to the deep roads, to bring in Aveline (the only tank). Which I find out Aveline sucks at tanking without continuous pausing action and queueing up the next action. Her AI tactics suck donkey balls. If I don't monitor closely, she will lose aggro and the boss will go around murdering the dps/healer (learned this from 10 failed attempts, which I wonder why the boss kept on getting loose).
Is the game supposed to be this way? If your main character is not a tank, you need to split most of your time managing the tank and your char?
As for Derrick's suggestion, does Sandal only say that if you import a god-baby game?
He acts nothing like a HUMAN Tranquil. Sandal seems to act very much like a Tranquil part of the time....the other part of the time he seems to get is shit straight and is capable of tremendous things. He is definitely a dwarven mage of some power. He also dreams.
Man, this game is pretty hard. I just beat Rock Wraith boss (barely). God, I hate the suicidal AI of my companions.
I was pretty pissed that Bethany dies from infection of the blight. Is there a way to save her?
I read somewhere that if you don't bring her along for the Deep Roads expedition she gets incarcerated by the templars and made into a tranquil mage of the circle; thus you lose her. So I bought her along instead of Anders (I wanted to bring Anders since he can actually revive people mid-battle).
This game has a steep curve when fighting an end chapter boss. This is my first play through and I chose to be a rogue on nightmare mode (no wussying out and lowering difficulty at any time). 500+ saves later and at the end boss of chapter one (I bought Fenris and Bethany) and promptly got murdered by that rock wraith. I was going to kite him back, then noticed "D'oh. Bastard put a magical forcefield to keep us in."
A short time later, he kills Fenris with ease, since I can't keep his health up with heals and potions on cooldown. I had to load an hour save prior to the deep roads, to bring in Aveline (the only tank). Which I find out Aveline sucks at tanking without continuous pausing action and queueing up the next action. Her AI tactics suck donkey balls. If I don't monitor closely, she will lose aggro and the boss will go around murdering the dps/healer (learned this from 10 failed attempts, which I wonder why the boss kept on getting loose).
Is the game supposed to be this way? If your main character is not a tank, you need to split most of your time managing the tank and your char?
Someone lied to you. She doesn't become Tranquil. If you take her to the Deep Roads, she dies, as you know.
If you leave her at home, she is taken by the Templars to the Circle.
If you take her and Anders, she becomes a Grey Warden.
In all three, she is unavailable for all of Act 2. In the second and third, she can rejoin at the end of the game.
Man, this game is pretty hard. I just beat Rock Wraith boss (barely). God, I hate the suicidal AI of my companions.
I was pretty pissed that Bethany dies from infection of the blight. Is there a way to save her?
I read somewhere that if you don't bring her along for the Deep Roads expedition she gets incarcerated by the templars and made into a tranquil mage of the circle; thus you lose her. So I bought her along instead of Anders (I wanted to bring Anders since he can actually revive people mid-battle).
This game has a steep curve when fighting an end chapter boss. This is my first play through and I chose to be a rogue on nightmare mode (no wussying out and lowering difficulty at any time). 500+ saves later and at the end boss of chapter one (I bought Fenris and Bethany) and promptly got murdered by that rock wraith. I was going to kite him back, then noticed "D'oh. Bastard put a magical forcefield to keep us in."
A short time later, he kills Fenris with ease, since I can't keep his health up with heals and potions on cooldown. I had to load an hour save prior to the deep roads, to bring in Aveline (the only tank). Which I find out Aveline sucks at tanking without continuous pausing action and queueing up the next action. Her AI tactics suck donkey balls. If I don't monitor closely, she will lose aggro and the boss will go around murdering the dps/healer (learned this from 10 failed attempts, which I wonder why the boss kept on getting loose).
Is the game supposed to be this way? If your main character is not a tank, you need to split most of your time managing the tank and your char?
If you're playing on nightmare, I think the expectation is that you're micromanaging pretty intensely. As in, issuing just about ever order to every character. That or have some insanely refined tactics.
Also, this fight will last for fucking ages. Attempting melee damage is risky, so just take pot shots at him from a distance and deal damage when he's vulnerable, or when he's attacking your tank and you know you can get in and out with your DPS without risking damage. If you have paralyzing spells or good debuffs, they help a lot.
If it makes you feel any better, the Act II boss is arguably not as bad. Arguably.
Only the darker aspects in mages? No, but those aspects are inevitably going to come out and have considerably more unfortunate results than in normal people. Any system of authority can be abused, Templar abuses are unfortunate and yes inevitable.
They're considerably preferable to the inevitable abuses resulting from mage freedom. I've yet to hear a single argument for Mage freedom that doesn't ultimately boil down to "Well the current system is imperfect therefore lets let them free and hope that they won't be dicks".
That's not much of a plan.
You're stopping too short. Setting up the Templar system leads inevitably to abuses, which leads inevitably to revolt. Those revolutionaries have nukes.
Inevitably, the system self-destructs. It cannot be used even in a practical sense.
Nonsense. You're treating the Mages as far more powerful than they are. They are absolutely dangerous. Uncontrollable? Undefeatable? Hardly. Need I remind you that in the Tevinter Imperium/Qunari conflict the Imperium is losing? That, by all indications, the only reason the Imperium hasn't lost already is that the Qunari aren't playing for the Imperium, they're playing for Thedas?
At the end of the day Mages obey the laws of logistics just like anyone else in a pitched conflict, they're harder to replace than common men, and they're few in number.
Qunari mages understand their place and would rather die than live without purpose and fall to demons. Those guys are doing something right.
You realize that doesn't just apply to mages, right? In the Qun, your assigned a role. If you don't like that role or want a different role, feel free to 'release' yourself. By "release yourself" I mean slit your own throat. Sounds like a lovely system. The freedom of the qun is the freedom from having to choose your own path.
Man, you can leave the qunari if you want. The Arishok doesn't care, he'd rather not have weakness poisoning the qun. Mages don't have that luxury, but they actually understand why and aren't dumb maleficars that try to recreate the Imperium. Freedom is struggle, but in the Qun there is nothing to struggle against.
Only the darker aspects in mages? No, but those aspects are inevitably going to come out and have considerably more unfortunate results than in normal people. Any system of authority can be abused, Templar abuses are unfortunate and yes inevitable.
They're considerably preferable to the inevitable abuses resulting from mage freedom. I've yet to hear a single argument for Mage freedom that doesn't ultimately boil down to "Well the current system is imperfect therefore lets let them free and hope that they won't be dicks".
That's not much of a plan.
You're stopping too short. Setting up the Templar system leads inevitably to abuses, which leads inevitably to revolt. Those revolutionaries have nukes.
Inevitably, the system self-destructs. It cannot be used even in a practical sense.
Nonsense. You're treating the Mages as far more powerful than they are. They are absolutely dangerous. Uncontrollable? Undefeatable? Hardly. Need I remind you that in the Tevinter Imperium/Qunari conflict the Imperium is losing? That, by all indications, the only reason the Imperium hasn't lost already is that the Qunari aren't playing for the Imperium, they're playing for Thedas?
At the end of the day Mages obey the laws of logistics just like anyone else in a pitched conflict, they're harder to replace than common men, and they're few in number.
If I remember my codexs right, it was a conflict the Imperium was losing, until the New Exalted March forced it into a stalemate where mages hold the ground, countering Qunari cannons and (seemingly) Rennisance-era tech blow for blow with magic.
In fact, unless everyone suddenly wants to join the Qun, mages are probably the biggest advantage most of Thedas has against a Qunari invasion, at least untill someone steals/invents the secrets to thier military tech.
Qunari mages understand their place and would rather die than live without purpose and fall to demons. Those guys are doing something right.
You realize that doesn't just apply to mages, right? In the Qun, your assigned a role. If you don't like that role or want a different role, feel free to 'release' yourself. By "release yourself" I mean slit your own throat. Sounds like a lovely system. The freedom of the qun is the freedom from having to choose your own path.
Man, you can leave the qunari if you want. The Arishok doesn't care, he'd rather not have weakness poisoning the qun. Mages don't have that luxury, but they actually understand why and aren't dumb maleficars that try to recreate the Imperium. Freedom is struggle, but in the Qun there is nothing to struggle against.
I am hesitant to place my trust in a society founded by a man who was inspired by a plague of locust, but that is just me. :P
Only the darker aspects in mages? No, but those aspects are inevitably going to come out and have considerably more unfortunate results than in normal people. Any system of authority can be abused, Templar abuses are unfortunate and yes inevitable.
They're considerably preferable to the inevitable abuses resulting from mage freedom. I've yet to hear a single argument for Mage freedom that doesn't ultimately boil down to "Well the current system is imperfect therefore lets let them free and hope that they won't be dicks".
That's not much of a plan.
You're stopping too short. Setting up the Templar system leads inevitably to abuses, which leads inevitably to revolt. Those revolutionaries have nukes.
Inevitably, the system self-destructs. It cannot be used even in a practical sense.
Nonsense. You're treating the Mages as far more powerful than they are. They are absolutely dangerous. Uncontrollable? Undefeatable? Hardly. Need I remind you that in the Tevinter Imperium/Qunari conflict the Imperium is losing? That, by all indications, the only reason the Imperium hasn't lost already is that the Qunari aren't playing for the Imperium, they're playing for Thedas?
At the end of the day Mages obey the laws of logistics just like anyone else in a pitched conflict, they're harder to replace than common men, and they're few in number.
If I remember my codexs right, it was a conflict the Imperium was losing, until the New Exalted March forced it into a stalemate where mages hold the ground, countering Qunari cannons and (seemingly) Rennisance-era tech blow for blow with magic.
In fact, unless everyone suddenly wants to join the Qun, mages are probably the biggest advantage most of Thedas has against a Qunari invasion, at least untill someone steals/invents the secrets to thier military tech.
It's a fight they're still losing. The Qunari took the island of Seheron with little difficulty, and haven't bothered to push further because they have no need to do so. They're mounting for a Thedas scale invasion and all Tevinter attempts to retake Seheron, which will presumably be the springboard for such an attack, have ended in pitiable failure.
Mages are indeed important to any defense against the Qunari but one must always look to the big picture. Give them an inch, be prepared for them to take a mile.
Know what would have been interesting? If right at the start, Bethany had been forced to use Blood Magic to save you from the Darkspawn. That would have worked a lot better than Merrill's whole "I really want to risk my life to fix this mirror" schtick , Bethany would have been more interesting and Anders wouldn't have been forced to become such a lamer.
Couple that with Wesley surviving and you could have had a really in-depth, personal look at both sides of the argument.
I really like that Bethany stays legitimate. I can't even say that about either protagonist.
Oh, me too. One good egg in a whole basketful of rotten ones, because she grew up safely away from Kirkwall's evil influence :P
But...all the mage companions are from Ferelden :?
Know what would have been interesting? If right at the start, Bethany had been forced to use Blood Magic to save you from the Darkspawn. That would have worked a lot better than Merrill's whole "I really want to risk my life to fix this mirror" schtick , Bethany would have been more interesting and Anders wouldn't have been forced to become such a lamer.
Couple that with Wesley surviving and you could have had a really in-depth, personal look at both sides of the argument.
I really like that Bethany stays legitimate. I can't even say that about either protagonist.
Oh, me too. One good egg in a whole basketful of rotten ones, because she grew up safely away from Kirkwall's evil influence :P
But...all the mage companions are from Ferelden :?
I meant Kirkwall mages, not party members. Merrill isn't rotten, just dumb, and Anders was a dude before he decided to turn himself into an abomination.
They do seem to want to have their cake and eat it too with mages.
Mages are insanely dangerous uncontrolled fonts of magical power and demons and mind control and and
Oh but
The Tevinter Imperium is you know
Okay.
It's like, oppressive. But frankly, so are all the other kingdoms. And it's certainly not much of a power compared to all the other nations in the game. It's losing a war, on the way out as a major power, and apparently at the height of the nation's mystic might it lost to a slave rebellion/barbarian horde.
Also, none of the magisters are demons? I guess? I don't really get that. They constantly use the FORBIDDEN ARTS and yet apparently suffer no ill effects, they're just wicked douches.
Frankly, I wish they'd emphasized the mind-influence stuff as the danger rather than the idea of demons killing people. It seems way more convincingly dangerous and paranoia inducing than the fear of people becoming rather easily dispatched demons.
I would really like to see just how corrupt the magisters of the (current) Tevinter Imperium really are.
I mean, all we really have for an example is Fenris' description, (which is colored by him being a slave of...) Denarius (who is just one guy) and the codex entries (which are either about the Tevinter of old, who were undeniably cruel, or written by followers of the Chantry out of Val Royeaux.)
Are they as deep into Blood Magic as Fenris says? Is Denarius just a bad egg in a system that otherwise works (other than the slaves part, of course)? ...Or is it somewhere in the middle?
Damn, make a post, go to bed, and the thread adds ten pages by the next time you look it. Here comes my "the circle/templar arrangement isn't working" wall of text (spoilers).
The circle/templar arrangement isn't working. The arguments in favor of it tend to come from the premise that mages are a threat to the public, and that justifies the Templars' actions. It only justifies the Templars' actions if they work, and they don't. Here are some facts about mages and templars:
1. The Templars are not very good at catching mages. You can't swing a dead hurlock in either game without hitting an apostate mage. Practically every time you meet a group of enemies there's one, there are dozens of apostate NPCs, and at least one apostate party member in each game. You would expect this since it's way easier to avoid the Templars than for them to catch you. It doesn't require a plan any more complicated that "don't do magic in public." (And even if you do they may miss you - Anders did magic in public for years at his clinic and the Templars apparently never noticed) Mages can be born unexpectedly to families across ethnic and social boundaries. Furthermore, a mage's friends and family are more often than not (based on the examples we've seen) inclined to hide and support the mage, and merc/criminal groups also collect and protect them for their power (both the smuggler and merc group in the DA2 prologue are interested in your services in part because MageHawke/Bethany is a mage).
2. Once they have the mages caught, they can't contain them. This is an argument for the circle based on the example of the Ferelden circle. But that circle was the exception, not the rule - and it wasn't even really an exception since during DA:O you meet more than one mage who has escaped it. In Kirkwall they're escaping constantly, despite Kirkwall being (apparently) the strictest circle around. In the Ser Alrik quest that mage is apparently popping out just to visit her family. That Orlesian goofball escaped just because he wanted to get laid. And that's just in Kirkwall - in Starkhaven the entire goddamn circle got loose.
3. Once the mages escape, they can rarely recapture them. In the case of Kirkwall, this is because their tactics have so alienated a big chunk of the public and even some within their own ranks that no one will talk to them. That's Meredith's stated reason for enlisting you in act three - people won't talk to the Templars, and they can't find any of their escaped mages. The only ones I can think of that they do recapture are the ones in the cave in act two (that Thrask sends you a letter about) - and even then the only dangerous one promptly escapes again.
4. The Templars inspire distrust and resentment, which drives mages to bad behavior borne of desperation, and keeps the public from cooperating with the Templars. This was basically the entire point of Meredith's act three quest. I would say that in more than half the cases of demon possession you encounter in the DA series, they were driven to it to some degree or another by fear or hatred of the Templars. This doesn't excuse their behavior, but it is a reason for it.
5. The Templars' response to failure is typically to double down on the tactics that caused them to fail in the first place. This is Kirkwall pattern, summarized by Varric in the narration at the beginning of act 3: (paraphrased) "The more Meredith squeezed, the more the mages resisted, and the more they resisted, the more she squeezed." This, predictably, leads to an untenable situation, which is the powder keg that's set off following the events of DA2.
So the Templars drive the mages to worse behavior, can't catch the mages, can't keep ahold of them once they've caught them, and can't recapture them once they've escaped. And in the meantime they alienate the public and their own ranks. The Templar solution to the mage problem is unworkable in the most basic sense of the word: it just doesn't work. It has the net effect of putting the public more at risk from mages, not less.
I want to play Witch Hunt so I can see how that story plays out, as I had a relationship with Morrigan in the game. I'd be interested in playing Awakening too, though am less interested in it than Witch Hunt. I don't care much about the other DLC.
Is Awakening very good? Should I play that then Witch Hunt? Should I play Witch Hunt, then DA2, then float back to Awakening if I'm still interested?
I know DA2 as received some negative opinion, though a friend of mine rather liked it (accepting some faults). I'm kinda torn.
Anyone notice how some things (mattresses and the copy machines in Highrise) are totally impenetrable? A steel wall, yeah that makes sense, but bullets should obliterate copy machines.
I don't know about you, but I always buy a bullet proof printer. Its a lot more expensive, but I think the advantages are apparent.
Only the darker aspects in mages? No, but those aspects are inevitably going to come out and have considerably more unfortunate results than in normal people. Any system of authority can be abused, Templar abuses are unfortunate and yes inevitable.
They're considerably preferable to the inevitable abuses resulting from mage freedom. I've yet to hear a single argument for Mage freedom that doesn't ultimately boil down to "Well the current system is imperfect therefore lets let them free and hope that they won't be dicks".
That's not much of a plan.
You're stopping too short. Setting up the Templar system leads inevitably to abuses, which leads inevitably to revolt. Those revolutionaries have nukes.
Inevitably, the system self-destructs. It cannot be used even in a practical sense.
Nonsense. You're treating the Mages as far more powerful than they are. They are absolutely dangerous. Uncontrollable? Undefeatable? Hardly. Need I remind you that in the Tevinter Imperium/Qunari conflict the Imperium is losing? That, by all indications, the only reason the Imperium hasn't lost already is that the Qunari aren't playing for the Imperium, they're playing for Thedas?
At the end of the day Mages obey the laws of logistics just like anyone else in a pitched conflict, they're harder to replace than common men, and they're few in number.
That's because the Tevinters are the ones attacking, and the Qun have the defensive advantage at Par Vollen. I'm sure if the Qun were the ones attacking, it might be a different story. Also, the ones in power aren't necessarily the ones that march into battle... and the ones in power are the mages.
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I agree with this. I believe I've already suggested as much, but villages instead of towers is simple poor planning.
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The Templars kill everyone, innocent or not, in a circle every time they exercise the "Right of Annulment." Basically, they gave a name to their terrorism so that makes it nice and civil. Ha! They get a single dose of their own medicine and instead of seeing how awful they are, on the whole, they can only see the length of their own noses.
Pitiful.
You realize that doesn't just apply to mages, right? In the Qun, your assigned a role. If you don't like that role or want a different role, feel free to 'release' yourself. By "release yourself" I mean slit your own throat. Sounds like a lovely system. The freedom of the qun is the freedom from having to choose your own path.
As for the mage v. templar argument. I don't think any of the pro-mage people would think the templars should be disposed of all together. I think everyone here agrees that the templars are needed to police the mages. The only question is the extent of their control over the mages.
Citing Tivinter as justification that the circle is necessary is a logical fallacy. They're citing one example of mages taking over when not under strict control, and assuming it applies to the entire population.
What this all is reminding me of is the Christian Reformation.
I shudder at the thought of painting Anders in the roll of Martin Luther though.
...hey. That's something I hadn't thought of at all. Nice one!
(Note: not being sarcastic here, that's genuinely a comparison/perspective that I hadn't thought of.)
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Namely Blood Magic and Abominations, both of which can exist without significant outward signs.
Why wouldn't we assume that? Humans, when presented with power, will nine times out of ten apply that power towards obtaining more power. Mages are in a better position to do so and with more disastrous results as history has shown us. Mages don't need Circles being big meanies in order to be huge assholes. Tevinter predates the Chantry, by a lot!
This is an assumption predicated on human nature. Not an unreasonable one.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
There is an entry in the game that goes into more detail about blood magic. Virtually all magic can be boosted by its application and some spells can only be cast through its use.
You assume only the darker aspects of human nature exist in mages, then?
There are also aspirations of excellence, of helping your fellow man, of making the world a better place. Mages are also in a better position to do this.
Also, your argument is self-defeating. The Templars were given power, and look what happened? They became jailors, rapists, torturers and above all- murders. If you really want to get into how people can become evil, look at the Milgram experiment. Given even the hint of an authority structure, people will kill innocent people on that alone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
Setting up such a system is deplorable, further, it is stupid. You want to equate a mage's power with nukes? Fair enough. There's a reason you don't invade countries with nuclear capability.
Welcome to the fallout
Or, in the DA2 case, for when the Templars do want to appease the general populace instead of doing the right thing. Fuck the paperwork, let's just nuke it all, right? Right.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
as far as I remember both scenarios end with the hero walking in and handling business.
Number of fatalities and danger were about the same (Templar were about to get massively wiped any way since they were just letting demons amass power and until they bust out).
So really the sensible thing to do is invest in more heroes, because they go though demons like prunes though an old lady.
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They're considerably preferable to the inevitable abuses resulting from mage freedom. I've yet to hear a single argument for Mage freedom that doesn't ultimately boil down to "Well the current system is imperfect therefore lets let them free and hope that they won't be dicks".
That's not much of a plan.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
But it's the best thing about the DA setting! Come on, what else are we gonna talk about? slutty pirate queens? that goddamn Act 2 duel? enchantment?
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Speaking of enchantment did anyone else catch this phrase
Sandal: One day the magic will come back - all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide.
Bodahn: Huh? What's this?
Sandal: When he rises, everyone will see.
Bodahn: By the ancestors! What has gotten into you, my boy?
Sandal: Enchantment!
Bodahn: That's more like it!
A definite wtf moment.
You're stopping too short. Setting up the Templar system leads inevitably to abuses, which leads inevitably to revolt. Those revolutionaries have nukes.
Inevitably, the system self-destructs. It cannot be used even in a practical sense.
Re: Enchantment-
That was actually the most interesting thing about DA:2 for me. Just that little snippet of conversation. I think it's rather obvious that Sandal is referring to Morrigan's God-Child. That's either going to be the protagonist or antagonist of DA:3, I would guess.
It'll be nice to see a resurgence of magic in a world. I don't know about you, but I tend to hate the "magic is fading!" tripe that's part of like, every fantasy setting ever. I realize it's an easy way for the author to tie a fantasy past to the present but A) You don't have to do that and
DA3 spoilers:
This is in no way fuelled by my desire for Sandal to be the protagonist of the next game
YOU LIKES THE SHINEY?
As for Derrick's suggestion, does Sandal only say that if you import a god-baby game?
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
There are lots of things about Sandal that don't add up.
I read somewhere that if you don't bring her along for the Deep Roads expedition she gets incarcerated by the templars and made into a tranquil mage of the circle; thus you lose her. So I bought her along instead of Anders (I wanted to bring Anders since he can actually revive people mid-battle).
This game has a steep curve when fighting an end chapter boss. This is my first play through and I chose to be a rogue on nightmare mode (no wussying out and lowering difficulty at any time). 500+ saves later and at the end boss of chapter one (I bought Fenris and Bethany) and promptly got murdered by that rock wraith. I was going to kite him back, then noticed "D'oh. Bastard put a magical forcefield to keep us in."
A short time later, he kills Fenris with ease, since I can't keep his health up with heals and potions on cooldown. I had to load an hour save prior to the deep roads, to bring in Aveline (the only tank). Which I find out Aveline sucks at tanking without continuous pausing action and queueing up the next action. Her AI tactics suck donkey balls. If I don't monitor closely, she will lose aggro and the boss will go around murdering the dps/healer (learned this from 10 failed attempts, which I wonder why the boss kept on getting loose).
Is the game supposed to be this way? If your main character is not a tank, you need to split most of your time managing the tank and your char?
He acts nothing like a HUMAN Tranquil. Sandal seems to act very much like a Tranquil part of the time....the other part of the time he seems to get is shit straight and is capable of tremendous things. He is definitely a dwarven mage of some power. He also dreams.
If you leave her at home, she is taken by the Templars to the Circle.
If you take her and Anders, she becomes a Grey Warden.
In all three, she is unavailable for all of Act 2. In the second and third, she can rejoin at the end of the game.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
No. He said that in my non-god-baby import.
If you're playing on nightmare, I think the expectation is that you're micromanaging pretty intensely. As in, issuing just about ever order to every character. That or have some insanely refined tactics.
Also, this fight will last for fucking ages. Attempting melee damage is risky, so just take pot shots at him from a distance and deal damage when he's vulnerable, or when he's attacking your tank and you know you can get in and out with your DPS without risking damage. If you have paralyzing spells or good debuffs, they help a lot.
If it makes you feel any better, the Act II boss is arguably not as bad. Arguably.
Nonsense. You're treating the Mages as far more powerful than they are. They are absolutely dangerous. Uncontrollable? Undefeatable? Hardly. Need I remind you that in the Tevinter Imperium/Qunari conflict the Imperium is losing? That, by all indications, the only reason the Imperium hasn't lost already is that the Qunari aren't playing for the Imperium, they're playing for Thedas?
At the end of the day Mages obey the laws of logistics just like anyone else in a pitched conflict, they're harder to replace than common men, and they're few in number.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Man, you can leave the qunari if you want. The Arishok doesn't care, he'd rather not have weakness poisoning the qun. Mages don't have that luxury, but they actually understand why and aren't dumb maleficars that try to recreate the Imperium. Freedom is struggle, but in the Qun there is nothing to struggle against.
If I remember my codexs right, it was a conflict the Imperium was losing, until the New Exalted March forced it into a stalemate where mages hold the ground, countering Qunari cannons and (seemingly) Rennisance-era tech blow for blow with magic.
In fact, unless everyone suddenly wants to join the Qun, mages are probably the biggest advantage most of Thedas has against a Qunari invasion, at least untill someone steals/invents the secrets to thier military tech.
I am hesitant to place my trust in a society founded by a man who was inspired by a plague of locust, but that is just me. :P
It's a fight they're still losing. The Qunari took the island of Seheron with little difficulty, and haven't bothered to push further because they have no need to do so. They're mounting for a Thedas scale invasion and all Tevinter attempts to retake Seheron, which will presumably be the springboard for such an attack, have ended in pitiable failure.
Mages are indeed important to any defense against the Qunari but one must always look to the big picture. Give them an inch, be prepared for them to take a mile.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
But...all the mage companions are from Ferelden :?
I meant Kirkwall mages, not party members. Merrill isn't rotten, just dumb, and Anders was a dude before he decided to turn himself into an abomination.
Mages are insanely dangerous uncontrolled fonts of magical power and demons and mind control and and
Oh but
The Tevinter Imperium is you know
Okay.
It's like, oppressive. But frankly, so are all the other kingdoms. And it's certainly not much of a power compared to all the other nations in the game. It's losing a war, on the way out as a major power, and apparently at the height of the nation's mystic might it lost to a slave rebellion/barbarian horde.
Also, none of the magisters are demons? I guess? I don't really get that. They constantly use the FORBIDDEN ARTS and yet apparently suffer no ill effects, they're just wicked douches.
Frankly, I wish they'd emphasized the mind-influence stuff as the danger rather than the idea of demons killing people. It seems way more convincingly dangerous and paranoia inducing than the fear of people becoming rather easily dispatched demons.
I mean, all we really have for an example is Fenris' description, (which is colored by him being a slave of...) Denarius (who is just one guy) and the codex entries (which are either about the Tevinter of old, who were undeniably cruel, or written by followers of the Chantry out of Val Royeaux.)
Are they as deep into Blood Magic as Fenris says? Is Denarius just a bad egg in a system that otherwise works (other than the slaves part, of course)? ...Or is it somewhere in the middle?
1. The Templars are not very good at catching mages. You can't swing a dead hurlock in either game without hitting an apostate mage. Practically every time you meet a group of enemies there's one, there are dozens of apostate NPCs, and at least one apostate party member in each game. You would expect this since it's way easier to avoid the Templars than for them to catch you. It doesn't require a plan any more complicated that "don't do magic in public." (And even if you do they may miss you - Anders did magic in public for years at his clinic and the Templars apparently never noticed) Mages can be born unexpectedly to families across ethnic and social boundaries. Furthermore, a mage's friends and family are more often than not (based on the examples we've seen) inclined to hide and support the mage, and merc/criminal groups also collect and protect them for their power (both the smuggler and merc group in the DA2 prologue are interested in your services in part because MageHawke/Bethany is a mage).
2. Once they have the mages caught, they can't contain them. This is an argument for the circle based on the example of the Ferelden circle. But that circle was the exception, not the rule - and it wasn't even really an exception since during DA:O you meet more than one mage who has escaped it. In Kirkwall they're escaping constantly, despite Kirkwall being (apparently) the strictest circle around. In the Ser Alrik quest that mage is apparently popping out just to visit her family. That Orlesian goofball escaped just because he wanted to get laid. And that's just in Kirkwall - in Starkhaven the entire goddamn circle got loose.
3. Once the mages escape, they can rarely recapture them. In the case of Kirkwall, this is because their tactics have so alienated a big chunk of the public and even some within their own ranks that no one will talk to them. That's Meredith's stated reason for enlisting you in act three - people won't talk to the Templars, and they can't find any of their escaped mages. The only ones I can think of that they do recapture are the ones in the cave in act two (that Thrask sends you a letter about) - and even then the only dangerous one promptly escapes again.
4. The Templars inspire distrust and resentment, which drives mages to bad behavior borne of desperation, and keeps the public from cooperating with the Templars. This was basically the entire point of Meredith's act three quest. I would say that in more than half the cases of demon possession you encounter in the DA series, they were driven to it to some degree or another by fear or hatred of the Templars. This doesn't excuse their behavior, but it is a reason for it.
5. The Templars' response to failure is typically to double down on the tactics that caused them to fail in the first place. This is Kirkwall pattern, summarized by Varric in the narration at the beginning of act 3: (paraphrased) "The more Meredith squeezed, the more the mages resisted, and the more they resisted, the more she squeezed." This, predictably, leads to an untenable situation, which is the powder keg that's set off following the events of DA2.
So the Templars drive the mages to worse behavior, can't catch the mages, can't keep ahold of them once they've caught them, and can't recapture them once they've escaped. And in the meantime they alienate the public and their own ranks. The Templar solution to the mage problem is unworkable in the most basic sense of the word: it just doesn't work. It has the net effect of putting the public more at risk from mages, not less.
I just beat DA1. I own DA2.
I want to play Witch Hunt so I can see how that story plays out, as I had a relationship with Morrigan in the game. I'd be interested in playing Awakening too, though am less interested in it than Witch Hunt. I don't care much about the other DLC.
Is Awakening very good? Should I play that then Witch Hunt? Should I play Witch Hunt, then DA2, then float back to Awakening if I'm still interested?
I know DA2 as received some negative opinion, though a friend of mine rather liked it (accepting some faults). I'm kinda torn.
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That's because the Tevinters are the ones attacking, and the Qun have the defensive advantage at Par Vollen. I'm sure if the Qun were the ones attacking, it might be a different story. Also, the ones in power aren't necessarily the ones that march into battle... and the ones in power are the mages.
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