I don't understand what hair you're attempting to split there, or why it's meaningful. Unless you are claiming that a so called "rich" culture would be equally likely to come up with the blues.
my point is that not only is not all black culture a result of poverty, but not all "poor" cultures would have produced the same products black culture produced in america. there's a unique combination of circumstances that resulted in what we have today. so to say poor culture = black culture is beyond false and offensive. the generalization jakobagger made was untenable. I think thats pretty clear...
my point is that not only is not all black culture a result of poverty
so on the other hand we have poverty being an obvious major influence in black art and presumably on other aspects of "black culture," but... that culture isn't a result of poverty
that doesn't seem like it makes sense
but not all "poor" cultures would have produced the same products black culture produced in america
I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this line.
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it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
my point is that not only is not all black culture a result of poverty
so on the other hand we have poverty being an obvious major influence in black art and presumably on other aspects of "black culture," but... that culture isn't a result of poverty
that doesn't seem like it makes sense
The Harlem Renaissance and Bronzeville were more influenced by appealing to middle/upper class black people. It was not art born from poverty, however it produced unquestionably African/African-American art and has had lasting impact on "black culture."
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jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
Oh man, I forgot to follow this thread and didn't notice what I'd started. The thing about black culture was really just an aside, and it seems I expressed myself pretty poorly. I think I just meant that the vast majority of African Americans are living below the poverty line, and are especially over-represented among the urban poor, and that this is a big influence on culture.
Also, that when people (nerds) are afraid of 'the blacks', it is because they conflate race with class, which is easy to do in America.
I'm really sorry if it came across as bigoted or ignorant, that certainly wasn't how I meant it.
All that said, my main point was actually more about sub-cultures. Geeks, stoners, punks, emos, whatever. High school cliques. The borders between these groups seem to be more sharply drawn up in the US and Canada than here. Regarding ethnic sub-cultures/immigrant communities, yeah that's something Europe is still super bad at dealing with. Though Scandinavia is still quite far from a banlieue situation.
The stories I hear about nerds on the forums, I've just never seen anything that extreme here. And I've LARP'ed.
Certainly geeks are marginalized in some contexts. That we are mostly white & male doesn't mean we're not marginalized ever - an individual can be part of the dominant group in one context and a minority group in another context. I don't think that it's a social problem in the sense of racism or homophobia; I don't want to dramatize it. I don't think that geeks are being politically oppressed, and I don't think there's any reason for a persecution complex. If we're being intellectually honest, though, to say that geeks are not marginalized is as much an oversimplification as to say that geeks are marginalized.
See, I would agree with this except for the fact that everyone is marginalized in that way. You had mentioned earlier how you can feel like an outsider around your co-workers because they're big into the NFL while you're into MMO's. When I read that I didn't really interpret it as the marginalization/outsider-ing of your geekiness but rather as a simple fact of adulthood. You're a captive audience to the people you work with, more or less, and having to feign interest or deal with shit that other people care about is just part and parcel to that.
I worked at an office once with people who fawned over their newborns. To be blunt, I just don't give a damn about other people's kids unless they are friends or family. Even then, it can get grating. (Unless the kid is actually there and being adorable.) This is not making me part of an out-group because of my lack of kids, it's just parents being proud and talking to each other. In a different office I wouldn't be surprised if older folks felt uncomfortable bringing up their kids because they're surrounded by yuppies who wouldn't relate. That's just life. People should definitely try to be more conscious and considerate of these things but that's true of everybody, and for a lot more than just geekiness.
See, while this is all true, I think what you are missing is that certain types of groups are much more prevalent. It's not true for everybody to the same degree Geeks generally are a sort of minority compared to, say, sports fans. Get a random group together (like say, at a workplace) and it's more likely people will be chatting about sports then Star Trek.
It's the same kind of soft marginalization you are talking about with parents talking about their kids or whatever. Get a group of middle-class workers together and being the one without kids will probably make you the odd one out.
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my point is that not only is not all black culture a result of poverty, but not all "poor" cultures would have produced the same products black culture produced in america. there's a unique combination of circumstances that resulted in what we have today. so to say poor culture = black culture is beyond false and offensive. the generalization jakobagger made was untenable. I think thats pretty clear...
so on the other hand we have poverty being an obvious major influence in black art and presumably on other aspects of "black culture," but... that culture isn't a result of poverty
that doesn't seem like it makes sense
I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this line.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The Harlem Renaissance and Bronzeville were more influenced by appealing to middle/upper class black people. It was not art born from poverty, however it produced unquestionably African/African-American art and has had lasting impact on "black culture."
Also, that when people (nerds) are afraid of 'the blacks', it is because they conflate race with class, which is easy to do in America.
I'm really sorry if it came across as bigoted or ignorant, that certainly wasn't how I meant it.
All that said, my main point was actually more about sub-cultures. Geeks, stoners, punks, emos, whatever. High school cliques. The borders between these groups seem to be more sharply drawn up in the US and Canada than here. Regarding ethnic sub-cultures/immigrant communities, yeah that's something Europe is still super bad at dealing with. Though Scandinavia is still quite far from a banlieue situation.
The stories I hear about nerds on the forums, I've just never seen anything that extreme here. And I've LARP'ed.
Until their computer breaks.
See, while this is all true, I think what you are missing is that certain types of groups are much more prevalent. It's not true for everybody to the same degree Geeks generally are a sort of minority compared to, say, sports fans. Get a random group together (like say, at a workplace) and it's more likely people will be chatting about sports then Star Trek.
It's the same kind of soft marginalization you are talking about with parents talking about their kids or whatever. Get a group of middle-class workers together and being the one without kids will probably make you the odd one out.