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[WOW] [CHAT] thread. 4.2 on the PTR, time to chuck woodland animals.

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Posts

  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I don't get it. How bad is that change? It doesn't seem bad. Maybe you're playing the game wrong and expending too much mana? It's always the developer's fault, it's never the player's fault.

    There's being upset with a nerf, and then there's this. Go take a chill pill.

    Well, Blizzards method of tweaking stuff tends to be either "Make it the next big thing" or "cripple it uselessly". Moreso if it's related to PvP (in which case if it's good, expect it to be nerfed into the ground. If it's bad, expect to never get away from it again.)

    I've never, ever, ever had that mindset with changes made to this game. I mean I recognize when things get buffed to be super badass, but nothing has ever broken the game for me to make a class unfun or unplayable. I am relatively casual with my involvement in the game content so I guess I don't share the "I MUST SUCCEED" mentality.

    If you don't heal, or raid, on a resto shaman, why don't you just go back to posting e-rp stories.

    No one knows how the revamped water shields is going to handle in the next tier of content, but people are going to start that tier in this tiers gear.

    Resto shamans are the 4th best healer in the game. Remember when they had to straight buff our heals by increasing the mastery by 10%?

    The reason they're changing this is because shamans can be so ineffective as healers that some top tier guilds were making them into mana batteries in 25 man (basically a fucked up Telluric currents crappy dps who stacked spirit for their mana tides every 3 minutes so that paladins and druids could heal more).

    If it's just a "fucking game" then why do you care what other people think about it? On paper, even with the change to Water shield, it looks like a nerf to a class that's already lagging behind the other 3 classes. Have you even seen Spirit link totem, either?

    Said exactly what I wanted to say, but better.

    Also, I hate when they do that. Nerf something that's GOING TO BECOME an issue. Half way through the patch when we're farming the last boss of a raid, or planning alt runs, that's one thing. It's a good chance that everyone has seen it, or at least most of it, if they wanted to or had any chance of it. Now the gears out there, the numbers are in, and it's looking a bit overpowered for Class A, Spec B. But at the BEGINNING in ANTICIPATION for these new stats, it's ridiculous.

    It's like going outside to find you have a ticket on your car because a passing police officer knows you might speed home after work. If our damage/healing/regen isn't out of control yet, why nerf it?

    As for nerfing it because Shaman were basically just Mana batteries for Druids and Paladins, that makes the nerf even worse. It went from "I get a raid spot because they need my one totem to make THEM better" to "I don't get a raid spot".
    Yeah but didn't you see the huge buff crit is getting for all healers? Its literally a doubling of the bonus healing a crit provides, pushing it from 150% of a normal heal to 200% of a normal heal. I imagine crit is going to be A LOT more attractive for healers.
    That's fallacious.
    First of all, it's a doubling of the bonus. Which went from 50% to 100%. It's only a 50% OVERALL increase.

    Second of all, all healers get it. Meaning any gap has been increased by 50% as well.

    Third, that's irrelevant if the new Improved Water Shield isn't better overall for our personal regen, or our heals aren't individually buffed so that we're not sat out because "Well now they don't even have Mana Tide!"

    The Muffin Man on
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    It is rather annoying they are doing this to healers because of the set bonus on the firelands gear :rotate:
    Not everyone raids

    Brainleech on
  • DacDac Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Again, you are being a complete goose and focusing on only the Mana Tide nerf while ignoring Resurgence, the details of which have been stated MULTIPLE TIMES over the last couple pages.

    Dac on
    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
  • DrHookensteinDrHookenstein Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I don't get it. How bad is that change? It doesn't seem bad. Maybe you're playing the game wrong and expending too much mana? It's always the developer's fault, it's never the player's fault.

    There's being upset with a nerf, and then there's this. Go take a chill pill.

    Well, Blizzards method of tweaking stuff tends to be either "Make it the next big thing" or "cripple it uselessly". Moreso if it's related to PvP (in which case if it's good, expect it to be nerfed into the ground. If it's bad, expect to never get away from it again.)

    I've never, ever, ever had that mindset with changes made to this game. I mean I recognize when things get buffed to be super badass, but nothing has ever broken the game for me to make a class unfun or unplayable. I am relatively casual with my involvement in the game content so I guess I don't share the "I MUST SUCCEED" mentality.

    If you don't heal, or raid, on a resto shaman, why don't you just go back to posting e-rp stories.

    No one knows how the revamped water shields is going to handle in the next tier of content, but people are going to start that tier in this tiers gear.

    Resto shamans are the 4th best healer in the game. Remember when they had to straight buff our heals by increasing the mastery by 10%?

    The reason they're changing this is because shamans can be so ineffective as healers that some top tier guilds were making them into mana batteries in 25 man (basically a fucked up Telluric currents crappy dps who stacked spirit for their mana tides every 3 minutes so that paladins and druids could heal more).

    If it's just a "fucking game" then why do you care what other people think about it? On paper, even with the change to Water shield, it looks like a nerf to a class that's already lagging behind the other 3 classes. Have you even seen Spirit link totem, either?

    Said exactly what I wanted to say, but better.

    Also, I hate when they do that. Nerf something that's GOING TO BECOME an issue. Half way through the patch when we're farming the last boss of a raid, or planning alt runs, that's one thing. It's a good chance that everyone has seen it, or at least most of it, if they wanted to or had any chance of it. Now the gears out there, the numbers are in, and it's looking a bit overpowered for Class A, Spec B. But at the BEGINNING in ANTICIPATION for these new stats, it's ridiculous.

    It's like going outside to find you have a ticket on your car because a passing police officer knows you might speed home after work. If our damage/healing/regen isn't out of control yet, why nerf it?

    As for nerfing it because Shaman were basically just Mana batteries for Druids and Paladins, that makes the nerf even worse. It went from "I get a raid spot because they need my one totem to make THEM better" to "I don't get a raid spot".
    Yeah but didn't you see the huge buff crit is getting for all healers? Its literally a doubling of the bonus healing a crit provides, pushing it from 150% of a normal heal to 200% of a normal heal. I imagine crit is going to be A LOT more attractive for healers.
    That's fallacious.
    First of all, it's a doubling of the bonus. Which went from 50% to 100%. It's only a 50% OVERALL increase.

    Second of all, all healers get it. Meaning any gap has been increased by 50% as well.

    Third, that's irrelevant if the new Improved Water Shield isn't better overall for our personal regen, or our heals aren't individually buffed so that we're not sat out because "Well now they don't even have Mana Tide!"

    Pretty big "if" since that's the whole point of its change.

    Frankly, gaining a raid spot because of a niche role is a great way to corner the class out of the game. It'd be far better to balance our healing capacity (if that's the problem) than rely on this crutch.

    DrHookenstein on
    "He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2011
    ToddJewell wrote: »
    Managed to get some new dps to our guild so we had a full raid last night. I finally got to heal heroic halfus, fun fight. Three shot him, one shot the rest of BoT [normal], then did magmaw/omnitron in quick fashion so we could get a few attempts in at heroic chimaeron before we called it a night.

    As a healer, fights like this stress me out the whole time, ha. We got in three attempts, the last one we got him to 30%. I think a lot of the healers were healing way too much, where my strategy is just to get everyone to about 11k and then try to just regen my mana. My problem comes with going to the group up phase, sinceI keep my group lower to begin with, I lost a couple people right at the start of feud from not getting their health up fast enough. I need to reach some happy medium with that I guess.

    Chim's kind of a jerk (but not as big of a jerk as Magmaw). My guild positions our three healing shamans so they're healing rains will cover the whole raid to help deal with healing everyone up over 10k. With tanking, we rotate three tanks. Tank A tanks Chim and Tank B taunts for Double Strikes. Tank C just kinda chills. Tank B then taunts for System's Failure. Tank B then tanks Chim and Tank C taunts for Double Strikes while Tank A just chills. Then, of course, Tank C tanks System's Failure and when that ends, tanks Chim while Tank A is now on Double Strikes and Tank B chills out.

    JustinSane07 on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Javen wrote: »
    It seems the mana issue wouldn't be so bad if they actually stuck to their original cataclysm deal of "heal smarter, not harder" mantra. Tanks can still go from full to nothing in no time flat, healers still had better use every single GCD possible or else people start dying, the whole dynamic seems pretty identical to Wrath, except much less effective now that mana regen is a very real issue.

    forty on
  • MonstyMonsty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    Grobian wrote: »
    Resurgence will always proc on crits, only that HS and CH will proc less mana than HW and GHW. At least that's how I understood it.

    A crit HW now procs 1500 mana. In 4.2 it will proc 2250 mana. A crit HS now has a 60% chance to proc 1500 mana. In 4.2 it will always proc 1350 mana.

    Interesting. I still think it should scale with gear and return like 3% mana per crit or something along those lines. Flat returns will quickly be outpaced by %returns.

    Right, but mana costs don't change with gear. Your mana lasts longer as you get more mana overall. Scaling mana returns would be much harder to balance than flat ones, I'd guess.

    All other healing classes have a percent based mana regen function. Shamans do not.
    Priests and druids scale with mana pools(and are on 12 second cooldowns). Shamans mana regen scales with crit. Either way, better gear means more regen.

    Monsty on
  • ToddJewellToddJewell Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Chim's kind of a jerk (but not as big of a jerk as Magmaw). My guild positions our three healing shamans so they're healing rains will cover the whole raid to help deal with healing everyone up over 10k. With tanking, we rotate three tanks. Tank A tanks Chim and Tank B taunts for Double Strikes. Tank C just kinda chills. Tank B then taunts for System's Failure. Tank B then tanks Chim and Tank C taunts for Double Strikes while Tank A just chills. Then, of course, Tank C tanks System's Failure and when that ends, tanks Chim while Tank A is now on Double Strikes and Tank B chills out.
    I believe that is what our tanks were doing -- we had prot paladin MT, warrior OT, and a druid who would switch from cat to bear for a bit. Our heal team is different than yours, however.

    We have two holy paladins, two druids, a disc priest and for the first time last night, a shaman [recruited one, no more 5 healer runs woohoo].

    ToddJewell on
  • Smaug6Smaug6 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Monsty wrote: »
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    Grobian wrote: »
    Resurgence will always proc on crits, only that HS and CH will proc less mana than HW and GHW. At least that's how I understood it.

    A crit HW now procs 1500 mana. In 4.2 it will proc 2250 mana. A crit HS now has a 60% chance to proc 1500 mana. In 4.2 it will always proc 1350 mana.

    Interesting. I still think it should scale with gear and return like 3% mana per crit or something along those lines. Flat returns will quickly be outpaced by %returns.

    Right, but mana costs don't change with gear. Your mana lasts longer as you get more mana overall. Scaling mana returns would be much harder to balance than flat ones, I'd guess.

    All other healing classes have a percent based mana regen function. Shamans do not.
    Priests and druids scale with mana pools(and are on 12 second cooldowns). Shamans mana regen scales with crit. Either way, better gear means more regen.


    Part of the problem with this is that higher ilevel gear always has more int. You can't get an upgrade and see your regen go down because it has mastery and haste on it. An upgrade always gives you more int and thus better regen.

    Plus you gem for int, enhant for int, etc. Ints just a better stat than crit.

    Second the new talent won't be mana positive (i.e. the expected return on casting a spell is plus mana) until a crit rating of roughly 78% crit for HW, impossible for GHW. Thus, we should look at it as a cost reducer not a mana regen talent.

    Plus the value is static, so going forward you will proc it more often, but the differential is worse than if you got a percent return on your mana pool.

    I don't know I feel like I am complaining too much, but I think that the change is going to make 4.2 mana regen a serious issue for most shamans until higher level of gear, which I don't think is fair considering that this change is probably the result of trying to keep Other classes mana regen under control.

    Smaug6 on
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  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2011
    Hahaha. They rolled back the Balance changes for the lunar energy shit.

    JustinSane07 on
  • DacDac Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Divine Plea, glyphed, restores 18% of your total mana.

    Let us for the moment assume a mana pool of 100k for the purposes of simplicity.

    Divine Plea will thus restore 18k mana every two minutes. That sound about right?

    The current Improved Water Shield restores ~1711 mana every time a HW, GHW, or Riptide crits (don't ask me why WoWhead lists ~1500, that's not right), with a 30% chance for it to happen on Healing Surge crits, and a 15% chance for it to happen on Chain Heal crits.

    Currently, it takes approximately 10 procs from Improved Water Shield over two minutes to surpass Divine Plea's total amount of mana given.

    Post patch, it will take approximately 7 procs (generated by HW/GHW) over two minutes to surpass Divine Plea.

    However, 100k mana is a little low. Let us inflate our numbers to something a little more reasonable, like 125k.

    In this case, Divine Plea restores 22500 mana over two minutes.

    It therefore would take approximately 9 procs of Resurgence from HW/GHW over the same amount of time to equal that amount. (22500/2500)

    When Shamans shift to crit, I don't see this as being a hard target to reach. Therefore, the idea that Resurgence is gimped vs. Divine Plea is mistaken.

    But in truth, it was erroneous from the beginning, because comparing Resurgence to Divine Plea isn't fair. It would be more accurate to compare Resurgence to Seal of Insight, and Divine Plea to Mana Tide.

    Dac on
    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
  • DrHookensteinDrHookenstein Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    Monsty wrote: »
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    Grobian wrote: »
    Resurgence will always proc on crits, only that HS and CH will proc less mana than HW and GHW. At least that's how I understood it.

    A crit HW now procs 1500 mana. In 4.2 it will proc 2250 mana. A crit HS now has a 60% chance to proc 1500 mana. In 4.2 it will always proc 1350 mana.

    Interesting. I still think it should scale with gear and return like 3% mana per crit or something along those lines. Flat returns will quickly be outpaced by %returns.

    Right, but mana costs don't change with gear. Your mana lasts longer as you get more mana overall. Scaling mana returns would be much harder to balance than flat ones, I'd guess.

    All other healing classes have a percent based mana regen function. Shamans do not.
    Priests and druids scale with mana pools(and are on 12 second cooldowns). Shamans mana regen scales with crit. Either way, better gear means more regen.


    Part of the problem with this is that higher ilevel gear always has more int. You can't get an upgrade and see your regen go down because it has mastery and haste on it. An upgrade always gives you more int and thus better regen.

    Plus you gem for int, enhant for int, etc. Ints just a better stat than crit.

    Second the new talent won't be mana positive (i.e. the expected return on casting a spell is plus mana) until a crit rating of roughly 78% crit for HW, impossible for GHW. Thus, we should look at it as a cost reducer not a mana regen talent.

    Plus the value is static, so going forward you will proc it more often, but the differential is worse than if you got a percent return on your mana pool.

    I don't know I feel like I am complaining too much, but I think that the change is going to make 4.2 mana regen a serious issue for most shamans until higher level of gear, which I don't think is fair considering that this change is probably the result of trying to keep Other classes mana regen under control.

    Yeah, I kinda hate that part of it. :(

    DrHookenstein on
    "He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
  • Smaug6Smaug6 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Dac wrote: »
    Divine Plea, glyphed, restores 18% of your total mana.

    Let us for the moment assume a mana pool of 100k for the purposes of simplicity.

    Divine Plea will thus restore 18k mana every two minutes. That sound about right?

    The current Improved Water Shield restores ~1711 mana every time a HW, GHW, or Riptide crits (don't ask me why WoWhead lists ~1500, that's not right), with a 30% chance for it to happen on Healing Surge crits, and a 15% chance for it to happen on Chain Heal crits.

    Currently, it takes approximately 10 procs from Improved Water Shield over two minutes to surpass Divine Plea's total amount of mana given.

    Post patch, it will take approximately 7 procs (generated by HW/GHW) over two minutes to surpass Divine Plea.

    However, 100k mana is a little low. Let us inflate our numbers to something a little more reasonable, like 125k.

    In this case, Divine Plea restores 22500 mana over two minutes.

    It therefore would take approximately 9 procs of Resurgence from HW/GHW over the same amount of time to equal that amount. (22500/2500)

    When Shamans shift to crit, I don't see this as being a hard target to reach. Therefore, the idea that Resurgence is gimped vs. Divine Plea is mistaken.

    But in truth, it was erroneous from the beginning, because comparing Resurgence to Divine Plea isn't fair. It would be more accurate to compare Resurgence to Seal of Insight, and Divine Plea to Mana Tide.

    How much mana does Seal of Insight restore and whats the basis for it?

    Divine Plea came up just to show that every other class has percentage based mana returns. In addition, 9 procs of resurgence doesn't count the mana cost of the spells used to proc it.

    Also if Divine Plea is on a 2 min CD, glyphed, you are looking at a return of 27% of your mana every 3 min, slightly lower than Mana Tide. With the new change mana tide will restore roughly 17% of the caster's mana every 3 min.

    Not sure what the efficency is for seal of insight vs resurgence.

    Smaug6 on
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  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Smaug6 wrote: »

    How much mana does Seal of Insight restore and whats the basis for it?

    Divine Plea came up just to show that every other class has percentage based mana returns. In addition, 9 procs of resurgence doesn't count the mana cost of the spells used to proc it.

    Also if Divine Plea is on a 2 min CD, glyphed, you are looking at a return of 27% of your mana every 3 min, slightly lower than Mana Tide. With the new change mana tide will restore roughly 17% of the caster's mana every 3 min.

    Not sure what the efficency is for seal of insight vs resurgence.

    Seal of Insight has a chance to return 937 mana back on on a melee hit (lol) or 3.5k mana back on Judgement (a 2.4k net gain in mana). There's a critical distinction, though, because Resurgence returns mana while you're healing - Insight returns mana when you're not healing, either by meleeing or using a GCD on Judgement (heals from Enlightened Judgements nonwithstanding).

    Grundlestiltskin on
    3DS FC: 2079-6424-8577 | PSN: KaeruX65 | Steam: Karulytic | FFXIV: Wonder Boy
  • ShawnaseeShawnasee Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I'm finding it hilarious that people are bitching about other people bitching.

    Shawnasee on
  • JadedJaded Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I'd like to pull away from the healer debate for a second to ask what the hell is making groups fail at Jin'do. Never used to have an issue clearing that sumofabitch before but I've had 2 straight nights now of nothing but failed attempts on him.

    Night 1. 5/5 guild group. We just couldn't get it done. Maybe get a chain down and another to 1/2 in P2. 12 tries before disband.

    Night 2. PuG. After trying to coach people through the fight at best got a chain down. 10 tries before disband.

    Can anyone offer me some advice to give to groups (and for myself) on how the hell to whomp this bitch?
    My toon is a frost DK. My bro who usually heals it is a druid.

    Jaded on
    I can't think of anything clever.
  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Jaded wrote: »
    I'd like to pull away from the healer debate for a second to ask what the hell is making groups fail at Jin'do. Never used to have an issue clearing that sumofabitch before but I've had 2 straight nights now of nothing but failed attempts on him.

    Night 1. 5/5 guild group. We just couldn't get it done. Maybe get a chain down and another to 1/2 in P2. 12 tries before disband.

    Night 2. PuG. After trying to coach people through the fight at best got a chain down. 10 tries before disband.

    Can anyone offer me some advice to give to groups (and for myself) on how the hell to whomp this bitch?
    My toon is a frost DK. My bro who usually heals it is a druid.

    It's all about Phase 2.

    Tank gets a berserker. Berserker destroys chain. Group kills berserker, then burns the chain down while the tank cleans up the smaller adds. Once adds are under control, tank gets another berserker.

    That's the easiest way to do it. You can keep a berserker up for more than one jump, or break more than one chain at a time, but it's ultimately just making more work for the healer than is really necessary.

    Grundlestiltskin on
    3DS FC: 2079-6424-8577 | PSN: KaeruX65 | Steam: Karulytic | FFXIV: Wonder Boy
  • DacDac Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Smaug6 wrote: »

    How much mana does Seal of Insight restore and whats the basis for it?

    Divine Plea came up just to show that every other class has percentage based mana returns. In addition, 9 procs of resurgence doesn't count the mana cost of the spells used to proc it.

    Also if Divine Plea is on a 2 min CD, glyphed, you are looking at a return of 27% of your mana every 3 min, slightly lower than Mana Tide. With the new change mana tide will restore roughly 17% of the caster's mana every 3 min.

    Not sure what the efficency is for seal of insight vs resurgence.

    Seal of Insight has a chance to return 937 mana back on on a melee hit (lol) or 3.5k mana back on Judgement (a 2.4k net gain in mana). There's a critical distinction, though, because Resurgence returns mana while you're healing - Insight returns mana when you're not healing, either by meleeing or using a GCD on Judgement (heals from Enlightened Judgements nonwithstanding).

    This about sums it up.

    As for Mana Tide, it may give less back than Divine Plea post nerf, but remember that you're giving it to everyone in the party and raid. That's a pretty big difference.

    There are other factors to consider, too, like the cost of Paladin heals getting jacked up in 4.2, the fact that Divine Plea cuts healing done by the Paladin in half for its duration, etc.

    Dac on
    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
  • FightTestFightTest Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Jaded wrote: »
    Can anyone offer me some advice to give to groups (and for myself) on how the hell to whomp this bitch?

    The reason people fail is because they try to do too much and get overwhelmed.

    If your group is bad just tell them to not dps the chains at all until all 3 are broken. Make their only jobs to stay near an unbroken chain in case of a slam, to dps any shades to save the healer, and to not stand in shit. Groups fail because dps gets a boner on the slam-zoned chains and ignore shadow bolts incoming, slams incoming, and/or shades on the healer.

    The fight is not a race, it is a leisurely walk in the park and you can calmly walk from chain to chain once the berserker slamming is all done and shades are under control. For some reason people think it's necessary to dps the chains when they have the slam zone on it. It isn't, and if you do that you'll probably wipe because people get tunnel vision.

    FightTest on
    MOBA DOTA.
  • DrHookensteinDrHookenstein Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I thought the spawn rate on ghosts increased as the fight went on?

    DrHookenstein on
    "He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
  • Smaug6Smaug6 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Dac wrote: »
    Smaug6 wrote: »

    How much mana does Seal of Insight restore and whats the basis for it?

    Divine Plea came up just to show that every other class has percentage based mana returns. In addition, 9 procs of resurgence doesn't count the mana cost of the spells used to proc it.

    Also if Divine Plea is on a 2 min CD, glyphed, you are looking at a return of 27% of your mana every 3 min, slightly lower than Mana Tide. With the new change mana tide will restore roughly 17% of the caster's mana every 3 min.

    Not sure what the efficency is for seal of insight vs resurgence.

    Seal of Insight has a chance to return 937 mana back on on a melee hit (lol) or 3.5k mana back on Judgement (a 2.4k net gain in mana). There's a critical distinction, though, because Resurgence returns mana while you're healing - Insight returns mana when you're not healing, either by meleeing or using a GCD on Judgement (heals from Enlightened Judgements nonwithstanding).

    This about sums it up.

    As for Mana Tide, it may give less back than Divine Plea post nerf, but remember that you're giving it to everyone in the party and raid. That's a pretty big difference.

    There are other factors to consider, too, like the cost of Paladin heals getting jacked up in 4.2, the fact that Divine Plea cuts healing done by the Paladin in half for its duration, etc.

    Yeah not saying that Pally regen is great, just that as shaman I have a hard time with mana as it is, and with these changes I will see less personal regen, stressing an already difficult issue.

    Not sure if the mana changes will kill pally healing efficency or not, no idea.

    Smaug6 on
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  • IshtaarIshtaar Fun is underrated. Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Jaded wrote: »
    I'd like to pull away from the healer debate for a second to ask what the hell is making groups fail at Jin'do. Never used to have an issue clearing that sumofabitch before but I've had 2 straight nights now of nothing but failed attempts on him.

    Night 1. 5/5 guild group. We just couldn't get it done. Maybe get a chain down and another to 1/2 in P2. 12 tries before disband.

    Night 2. PuG. After trying to coach people through the fight at best got a chain down. 10 tries before disband.

    Can anyone offer me some advice to give to groups (and for myself) on how the hell to whomp this bitch?
    My toon is a frost DK. My bro who usually heals it is a druid.

    Adds. I can guarantee it's adds; The ghost things hit for like 30k on cloth.

    Basically, have one person on adds full time. The big guy should be killed as soon as one of the chains is broken out, his damage goes up over time. After that, just dodge shadowbolts, kill adds, and work on chains as a last priority. The nightmare run I was in the other day a DPS died immediately, and we still killed it with no issue. (In 11 minutes /wrist) As long as adds are dead and people dodge shadowbolts, healer mana will never be an issue.

    Ishtaar on
    FFXIV: Sith Lord ~ D3: Ish ~ Steam:Ishie
  • FightTestFightTest Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I have no idea, but they have pitiful hp and are easily aoe'd down by most any class, so really all it takes is one person who isn't terrible to babysit the healer and it's irrelevant.

    FightTest on
    MOBA DOTA.
  • DrHookensteinDrHookenstein Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    FightTest wrote: »
    I have no idea, but they have pitiful hp and are easily aoe'd down by most any class, so really all it takes is one person who isn't terrible to babysit the healer and it's irrelevant.

    ...and we're right back to where we started. The Tank, Healer, and one DPS can't be terrible... which is 3/5 of the group already.

    DrHookenstein on
    "He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Well yeah, it's an execution fight. Execution fights are hard when people are terrible. That's why you have to make it as simple as possible and make people do one thing at a time.

    Grundlestiltskin on
    3DS FC: 2079-6424-8577 | PSN: KaeruX65 | Steam: Karulytic | FFXIV: Wonder Boy
  • DacDac Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    Dac wrote: »
    Smaug6 wrote: »

    How much mana does Seal of Insight restore and whats the basis for it?

    Divine Plea came up just to show that every other class has percentage based mana returns. In addition, 9 procs of resurgence doesn't count the mana cost of the spells used to proc it.

    Also if Divine Plea is on a 2 min CD, glyphed, you are looking at a return of 27% of your mana every 3 min, slightly lower than Mana Tide. With the new change mana tide will restore roughly 17% of the caster's mana every 3 min.

    Not sure what the efficency is for seal of insight vs resurgence.

    Seal of Insight has a chance to return 937 mana back on on a melee hit (lol) or 3.5k mana back on Judgement (a 2.4k net gain in mana). There's a critical distinction, though, because Resurgence returns mana while you're healing - Insight returns mana when you're not healing, either by meleeing or using a GCD on Judgement (heals from Enlightened Judgements nonwithstanding).

    This about sums it up.

    As for Mana Tide, it may give less back than Divine Plea post nerf, but remember that you're giving it to everyone in the party and raid. That's a pretty big difference.

    There are other factors to consider, too, like the cost of Paladin heals getting jacked up in 4.2, the fact that Divine Plea cuts healing done by the Paladin in half for its duration, etc.

    Yeah not saying that Pally regen is great, just that as shaman I have a hard time with mana as it is, and with these changes I will see less personal regen, stressing an already difficult issue.

    Not sure if the mana changes will kill pally healing efficency or not, no idea.

    I'm not sure you will see a hit to your personal mana regen issues, though. Outside of Mana Tide, you will do unambiguously better than you did before, assuming a reasonable amount of crit.

    Dac on
    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
  • Fig-DFig-D Tustin, CA, USRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The changes to Paladin spell costs will hardly be noticeable. With crits hitting harder, and causing crit heals to benefit more from mastery, I'm foreseeing little change in the speed at which a paladin will go through their mana.

    Fig-D on
    SteamID - Fig-D :: PSN - Fig-D
  • DacDac Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Fig-D wrote: »
    The changes to Paladin spell costs will hardly be noticeable. With crits hitting harder, and causing crit heals to benefit more from mastery, I'm foreseeing little change in the speed at which a paladin will go through their mana.

    Paladins are probably still going to be using most of their GCDs on healing, just like before, even with better crits.

    The 'time spent not healing' because of better crits is not going to cover the 15-20% increase in Paladin healing costs.

    Dac on
    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    ToddJewell wrote: »
    My problem comes with going to the group up phase, sinceI keep my group lower to begin with, I lost a couple people right at the start of feud from not getting their health up fast enough. I need to reach some happy medium with that I guess.
    ?

    Feud always immediately follows a Massacre, so even someone doing a bunch of excessive healing is going to have their heal targets going into Feud with the same amount of health as yours. And the first Feud damage doesn't actually come until about 15 seconds into the Feud, so no one should be dying at the start of it (of course dying to the first spit volley is certainly possible).

    forty on
  • CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I don't get it. How bad is that change? It doesn't seem bad. Maybe you're playing the game wrong and expending too much mana? It's always the developer's fault, it's never the player's fault.

    There's being upset with a nerf, and then there's this. Go take a chill pill.

    Well, Blizzards method of tweaking stuff tends to be either "Make it the next big thing" or "cripple it uselessly". Moreso if it's related to PvP (in which case if it's good, expect it to be nerfed into the ground. If it's bad, expect to never get away from it again.)

    I've never, ever, ever had that mindset with changes made to this game. I mean I recognize when things get buffed to be super badass, but nothing has ever broken the game for me to make a class unfun or unplayable. I am relatively casual with my involvement in the game content so I guess I don't share the "I MUST SUCCEED" mentality.

    If you don't heal, or raid, on a resto shaman, why don't you just go back to posting e-rp stories.

    No one knows how the revamped water shields is going to handle in the next tier of content, but people are going to start that tier in this tiers gear.

    Resto shamans are the 4th best healer in the game. Remember when they had to straight buff our heals by increasing the mastery by 10%?

    The reason they're changing this is because shamans can be so ineffective as healers that some top tier guilds were making them into mana batteries in 25 man (basically a fucked up Telluric currents crappy dps who stacked spirit for their mana tides every 3 minutes so that paladins and druids could heal more).

    If it's just a "fucking game" then why do you care what other people think about it? On paper, even with the change to Water shield, it looks like a nerf to a class that's already lagging behind the other 3 classes. Have you even seen Spirit link totem, either?

    Said exactly what I wanted to say, but better.

    Also, I hate when they do that. Nerf something that's GOING TO BECOME an issue. Half way through the patch when we're farming the last boss of a raid, or planning alt runs, that's one thing. It's a good chance that everyone has seen it, or at least most of it, if they wanted to or had any chance of it. Now the gears out there, the numbers are in, and it's looking a bit overpowered for Class A, Spec B. But at the BEGINNING in ANTICIPATION for these new stats, it's ridiculous.

    It's like going outside to find you have a ticket on your car because a passing police officer knows you might speed home after work. If our damage/healing/regen isn't out of control yet, why nerf it?

    As for nerfing it because Shaman were basically just Mana batteries for Druids and Paladins, that makes the nerf even worse. It went from "I get a raid spot because they need my one totem to make THEM better" to "I don't get a raid spot".
    Yeah but didn't you see the huge buff crit is getting for all healers? Its literally a doubling of the bonus healing a crit provides, pushing it from 150% of a normal heal to 200% of a normal heal. I imagine crit is going to be A LOT more attractive for healers.
    That's fallacious.
    First of all, it's a doubling of the bonus. Which went from 50% to 100%. It's only a 50% OVERALL increase.

    Second of all, all healers get it. Meaning any gap has been increased by 50% as well.

    Third, that's irrelevant if the new Improved Water Shield isn't better overall for our personal regen, or our heals aren't individually buffed so that we're not sat out because "Well now they don't even have Mana Tide!"

    First, You might want to re-read what I wrote. I said nothing fallacious.

    Secondly, Shamans benefit more from crit than other classes.

    Thirdly, I was merely pointing out that crit, while currently the worst stat, looks like it may no longer be the worst stat.

    edit: So if crit becomes better it wont be irrelevant to regen for shamans, because shamans will stack more crit and therefore have more regen due to an increase in their stacked crit

    CasedOut on
    452773-1.png
  • MonstyMonsty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Has there been any talk of consolidating the WoW threads here? Maybe it's just me, but discussion seems to be stagnating... especially for some of the class threads(two months since the last post in the rogue thread, assuming I'm not missing a new thread somewhere). Does a 5% subscriber drop truly account for it?

    I think we're brewing a case of "perception is reality" here, and could possibly reinvigorate some folks' interest in WoW with a centralized and more lively chat thread. Or does this sound like the rambling of a crazy man?

    Monsty on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The chat thread is already pretty lively. It's already become the de facto raid discussion thread.

    Speaking of raid discussion, last night the server I raid on was all fucked up. Couldn't zone into instances (beyond the BH we started with), and a lot of people were having disconnection issues. After wasting people's time hoping things would get better, we called it for the night. I wonder if we'll get an explanation. I doubt we'll get any compensation.

    I think at this point, appropriate compensation would be the implementation tri-spec. Your move, Blizzard.

    forty on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    We were having issues on H magmaw with chains not responding.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    forty wrote: »
    I think at this point, appropriate compensation would be the implementation tri-spec. Your move, Blizzard.

    Bigger main backpack or tabard tab imo. Or dance studio.

    Grundlestiltskin on
    3DS FC: 2079-6424-8577 | PSN: KaeruX65 | Steam: Karulytic | FFXIV: Wonder Boy
  • ShawnaseeShawnasee Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Bigger main backpack and a quest items bag(akin to the keys bag)...even though I know the latter is me being greedy.

    Well, since you don't even have to dig through your bags to find the quest item that "does shit" anymore maybe it's not so greedy after all.

    Shawnasee on
  • LarsLars Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    forty wrote: »
    I think at this point, appropriate compensation would be the implementation tri-spec. Your move, Blizzard.

    Bigger main backpack or tabard tab imo. Or dance studio.

    They either need to implement tri-spec or allow me to have more than ten characters per server. I'd even be fine if they went the City of Heroes route and had me pay (once, not monthly) to add more character slots to a specific server.

    As a side note, according to the latest patch notes on MMOChampion, they're taking away Aggressive stance from Hunter's pets. Guess they're trying whatever they can to make pugs more bearable.

    Lars on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Hunter pets? Or all pets? I don't know why you'd apply it to one class' pets and not the others.

    Anyway, that's a minor pseudo-nerf to PvP hunters (or all pet classes) since aggressive mode can be useful to flick on when you're defending a node. Occasionally your pet will react faster to a spotted, stealthed rogue than you do and ferret them out before they land Sap/an opener.

    forty on
  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Ishtaar wrote: »
    Jaded wrote: »
    I'd like to pull away from the healer debate for a second to ask what the hell is making groups fail at Jin'do. Never used to have an issue clearing that sumofabitch before but I've had 2 straight nights now of nothing but failed attempts on him.

    Night 1. 5/5 guild group. We just couldn't get it done. Maybe get a chain down and another to 1/2 in P2. 12 tries before disband.

    Night 2. PuG. After trying to coach people through the fight at best got a chain down. 10 tries before disband.

    Can anyone offer me some advice to give to groups (and for myself) on how the hell to whomp this bitch?
    My toon is a frost DK. My bro who usually heals it is a druid.

    Adds. I can guarantee it's adds; The ghost things hit for like 30k on cloth.

    Basically, have one person on adds full time. The big guy should be killed as soon as one of the chains is broken out, his damage goes up over time. After that, just dodge shadowbolts, kill adds, and work on chains as a last priority. The nightmare run I was in the other day a DPS died immediately, and we still killed it with no issue. (In 11 minutes /wrist) As long as adds are dead and people dodge shadowbolts, healer mana will never be an issue.

    They hit that hard on everyone, since their melee swings do shadow damage. Those things are just god awful. Also, the DPS on the adds should preferably be a ranged, since it sucks to get hit even once by those things.

    Zomro on
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Jin'do kills pugs because they want to rush through it without thinking about how much group damage is being tossed out. Here's what I do:

    Phase 1 is cake. Your tank can even just stand in place if he can't handle moving him around. A good tank though will set it up so Jin'do's outside the zone while he's inside so then the magic dps isn't gimped to hell for the entire phase.

    Phase 2, your tank picks up the add. The rule here is 2/3 stomps and then kill the add, regardless of how many chains were hit. He has a stacking debuff that will murder your tank: if your tank and healer are raid geared then you can go to 3 stomps before killing him, otherwise kill after 2.

    All ranged dps is on ghosts 100% of the time. Ghosts are what wipe pugs. If you only have 1 ranged dps, then whichever melee dps you have that has higher burst should help him out. If there's no ghosts out then kill chains/big add based on if it's time for him to die or not.

    The last dps is in charge of focusing on the chains. If there's a chain up they should be dpsing on it. The only time this isn't true is if they get targetted for stomp and thus need to run to another chain so it gets hit.

    Opty on
  • ParagonParagon Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Had about 7 wipes in a row on Jin'do two days ago because we only had 1 ranged DPS: a Warlock that did 6k.

    We finally got it eventually, thanks to me kiting 20 adds around the room and Fading. Honestly, I wish Blizzard would stop making so many hard encounters that fuck over melee completely.

    Paragon on
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