So I have a concern with the gateway build time reduction in PvZ.
I feel like its going to kill Gasless openings before they even get explored. A weakness has already been two gate opening but that was hidden as they are so unpopular right now.
Without speed a couple stalkers in your base is an absolute nightmare. This forces you to really almost blindly accentuate the non-economic parts of the build, like putting down your crawlers really really early and prioritizing queen production over anything else.
Proxy 2 gates will get more popular as well, and for example throwing two gates down in the middle of Shattered temple is very tough to deal with if you do not get an early speed.
I know its an intended PvP balance change but I feel like it might have its most profound changes in another matchup. At least for people trying exploratory openings in PvZ. Even a gas around 18-20 might be too late to negate damage.
I thought it was the scan that did it, forgot he had a raven as well.
I wonder how the hell you are supposed to stop that push once it gets rolling, mass gateway units just melt to hellions/thors, and strike cannons are amazing against colossi and immortals.
Not saying it's op mind you, just straight up wondering.
yeah i have no fucking idea
like, its similar to the thor/banshee/raven/marine allin
but better
and with higher numbers and higher upgrades
like, i can't think of anything that would help there, thorzain had enough vikings to target down the colossus and shit
maybe just attack him early? but he was so well defended
i want to hear mc's thoughts on this
or even tyler's by proxy
4 ways (that I know of).
Cheese/heavy early pressure like 4-gate (not perfect since the build incorporates a lot of bunkers) before the first thor/+1 armor finishes.
If it's a big map, you can harass him to death.
Mass mass mass Immortal, and engage in a position where only a few Thors can strike cannon at a time - you can kill the Thors during Strike being cast and clean up. Probably MC's best chance since you have to pass through a choke at some point to engage, but he spent a shit-ton of gass on HTs/sentries and didn't have nearly enough Immortals in addition to engaging on even ground
Mass mass mass VRs and hope the guy doesn't get enough vikings/marines (probably won't work).
Serpico on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
kas kinda gave this game to mc. he was behind really quick, and then that frontal attack during the drop was just bad.
Apparently Tyler is pissed about the impending 4gate change (tweeted about it). Said he's "tired of casual play negatively affecting pro play."
I don't know how he can think that the 4gate isn't a problem for PvP. Like, it's holding that matchup back so badly.
well at pro level i think most of them think that defensive 4 gate wins (which it does with great micro)
so offensive 4 gate really doesn't hurt them as much as it does others who can't pull off the defensive 4 gate
so them balancing out the 4 gate isnt really balancing at pro level
but i think for everyone else and spectators patching out 4 gate being good is alright
overall im mixed on the incoming changes, i think you should balance top down, but at the same time, pvp really isnt pleasant to watch most of the time
I've always thought that Gateways should have some advantage over Warpgates. Currently there is no reason to not have Warpgates, so I approve the changes.
I think that there should be something akin to Tech Labs vs Reactors. Have a unit that can only be produced while the Gateway isn't in Warpgate mode. Something powerful and worth it, or at least worth keeping a Gateway or two in normal mode.
Edit: Even better, have said Gateway unit only available after an upgrade in the Cybercore. That way, a player could scout a Cybercore upgrade spinning and not know whether it's Warpgate tech or the other tech. More mind games could occur if a scout sees Gateways and then dies. Protoss player then converts all his Warpgates back to Gateways and hits with the surprising tech switch. If the attack goes well, simply change your Gateways to Warpgates for a faster reinforce. So meta.
MNC Dover on
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Nothing concrete yet Ketherial, just a blue post saying they are planning to do something akin to increasing warpgate research, decreasing production time of certain units.
And MC just 4-0 Kas, heh.
Frozenzen on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
is he streaming currently?
... though I gotta leave in like 10 minutes anyway
So I've been struggling a lot lately vs the super heavy infestor usage that's become popular in PvZ. Basically, if they get enough infestors there is no death ball in the world that can save you. They also have become really popular in the midgame, which can be very frustrating to deal with.
I've been mulling over what the best way to tackle this problem is, and I feel like it has a lot to do with templar. For those Protoss of you who are also finding the heavy infestor usage to be problematic, here's a replay of me executing what I think is the best response to it.
Also: throw me into the boat of people who aren't thrilled about the warp gate change. Depending on the change, it could potentially change EVERYTHING about the way protoss opens. This is all at a time when the 'problem' matchup is rapidly evolving and shifting.
Well, let's see what the change is first before we assume it's going to drastically alter how Protoss plays.
Any kind of changes to gateway production buildtime is likely to have a large impact on how you open as protoss, might make attacking before warpgates are available feasible for one, which it isn't really at the moment.
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I think pure stalker does pretty well against thors, any ways?
At least, that sounds like the least inefficient option but I'm just throwing out ideas here.
Stop it before it gets rolling and thrash their base, because once it's up it's really really hard to stop.
Thors are actually really strong against void rays once you have a bunch of them thanks to the splash.
Heh, makes me think about magic boxing void rays, but I'm pretty sure there were marines there.
And stalkers are pretty bad against thors cost for cost last I checked, but probably better than zealots considering the blue flame hellions.
Oh! Boxer vs. HasuObs.
I feel like its going to kill Gasless openings before they even get explored. A weakness has already been two gate opening but that was hidden as they are so unpopular right now.
Without speed a couple stalkers in your base is an absolute nightmare. This forces you to really almost blindly accentuate the non-economic parts of the build, like putting down your crawlers really really early and prioritizing queen production over anything else.
Proxy 2 gates will get more popular as well, and for example throwing two gates down in the middle of Shattered temple is very tough to deal with if you do not get an early speed.
I know its an intended PvP balance change but I feel like it might have its most profound changes in another matchup. At least for people trying exploratory openings in PvZ. Even a gas around 18-20 might be too late to negate damage.
I don't know how he can think that the 4gate isn't a problem for PvP. Like, it's holding that matchup back so badly.
4 ways (that I know of).
Cheese/heavy early pressure like 4-gate (not perfect since the build incorporates a lot of bunkers) before the first thor/+1 armor finishes.
If it's a big map, you can harass him to death.
Mass mass mass Immortal, and engage in a position where only a few Thors can strike cannon at a time - you can kill the Thors during Strike being cast and clean up. Probably MC's best chance since you have to pass through a choke at some point to engage, but he spent a shit-ton of gass on HTs/sentries and didn't have nearly enough Immortals in addition to engaging on even ground
Mass mass mass VRs and hope the guy doesn't get enough vikings/marines (probably won't work).
well at pro level i think most of them think that defensive 4 gate wins (which it does with great micro)
so offensive 4 gate really doesn't hurt them as much as it does others who can't pull off the defensive 4 gate
so them balancing out the 4 gate isnt really balancing at pro level
but i think for everyone else and spectators patching out 4 gate being good is alright
overall im mixed on the incoming changes, i think you should balance top down, but at the same time, pvp really isnt pleasant to watch most of the time
i dont know
you gotta scout your base before gas
jeeeeesussssss
edit - thank god. I think he can hold this
that's just terrible
I think that there should be something akin to Tech Labs vs Reactors. Have a unit that can only be produced while the Gateway isn't in Warpgate mode. Something powerful and worth it, or at least worth keeping a Gateway or two in normal mode.
Edit: Even better, have said Gateway unit only available after an upgrade in the Cybercore. That way, a player could scout a Cybercore upgrade spinning and not know whether it's Warpgate tech or the other tech. More mind games could occur if a scout sees Gateways and then dies. Protoss player then converts all his Warpgates back to Gateways and hits with the surprising tech switch. If the attack goes well, simply change your Gateways to Warpgates for a faster reinforce. So meta.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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Dig that Adjutant's Korean voice.
And MC just 4-0 Kas, heh.
... though I gotta leave in like 10 minutes anyway
they havent actually said what changes are going to happen, other than 4gate is looking to be fixed in the upcoming patch
I've been mulling over what the best way to tackle this problem is, and I feel like it has a lot to do with templar. For those Protoss of you who are also finding the heavy infestor usage to be problematic, here's a replay of me executing what I think is the best response to it.
We have t-shirts.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
i havent seen too much evolution in pvp but maybe i havent watched enough games.
(never stop having bw nostalgia even though sc2 is sweet)
Any kind of changes to gateway production buildtime is likely to have a large impact on how you open as protoss, might make attacking before warpgates are available feasible for one, which it isn't really at the moment.