Almost right - warp storms are occuring as the Eldar civilisation collapses, and the birth of Slaanesh blows them all away (or sucks them into the Eye) setting the path in motion for the Great Crusade to leave Terra and reunite humanity now the warp storms are gone. The collapse of the Eldar civilisation pretty much drags all the other interplanetary civilisations with it (explaining why only humans and orks are really present during the age of the Imperium in any real numbers). The Ad Mech periodically sent ships out during brief lulls in the warp storms, founding the knight worlds, but weren't really an empire.
The main problem with 40K fluff is the interaction between the eldar and human pre imperium empire. It really doesn't pass a 'stress test' for them to coexist. I always felt that the alternate explanation that the eldar empire had already fallen, and Slaanesh was simply 'rising' from the warp as the humans had their golden age was better.
Oh, and your fluff for the early history should go....
Old Ones are the first race, they develop psychic powers and do what the hell they like.
Necrontyr (proto necrons) are jealous of the Old Ones, and do epic battle with them. They are smashed down, and retreat to a few stars. Old Ones leave them alone because they don't view them as any kind of threat.
Necrontyr discover C'Tan eating the stars. They worship them, and the C'Tan promise to rebuild them to defeat the old ones if they free them and build them new bodies.
The Necrontyr free the C'Tan, who promptly betray them and devour them and put their husks into machine bodies.
The Necrons and C'Tan engage the Old Ones, who are rapidly put on the back foot and seem to be doomed.
They manipulate/create their client races, the Orks, Eldar and others and begin to weaponize psychic powers.
With the C'Tan on one side, and the vast Psychic might of the Eldar and Old Ones on the other, the war stalemates into a brutal bloodbath.
This is when most of the classic eldar legends are born, with the Old Ones doing battle with the Necrons. These then repeat themselves later at the height of the eldar empire when their warp entity gods do the same thing.
There's so much killing, that the warp becomes full of demons who begin to possess and destroy everything. The C'Tan find they can gain no sustenance from demons, and fall back before them, deciding to wait. The Old Ones either flee or are destroyed
Was it really the killing that had daemons manifest in the warp? I thought it was the mere presence of these new warp-attuned races like orks and Eldar that caused the warp to go nuts and eventually spawn daemons
Specifically the "Enslavers" who destroyed most of all life causing the Necrons to fall back and Old Ones to go extinct
That talk about human AI before got me wondering whether or not the Tau are on a similar road. They have AI, although very limited, but with their technology progressing all the damn time, you have to wonder if they're sort of an alien look at a pre-golden age human society.
Nah, the Eldar would never let their little science project run away from them.
I'd say this gives evidence of a Tau/Eldar alliance more prominent but then I'd be run over by all the grimdark fans saying that I'm too carebear for this shit and that I need to be fucked over by daemons.
Indeed, you are still too carebear about this. The Tau aren't the Eldars friends, they're their pawns.
You need to think of it more in terms of the Soviet bloc. The Tau are an Eldar experiment with the specific purpose of giving them a meatshield race to send after this or that or what have you without endangering the increasingly less numerous, utterly superior Eldar race anymore than strictly necessary.
I also don't buy the 'Emperor dies, warp travel goes bust' theory. I've had it pitched to me before.
Emperor dies, warp travel gets hugely more dangerous, unpredictable and short ranged. Small scale multi star system empires could hold together, but keeping the entire imperium together would be impossible.
Before the emperor was serving as the astronomicon, the warp was much more stable since Slaanesh wasn't fully 'emerged' yet and the powers of chaos were far more dormant due to the low numbers of psychers at the time. It's why mankind could have it's golden age without all the aliens and robots just turning into demons all the time.
...they'll find a substitute for the Emperor in terms of being a beacon, like I said: daisy-chain some psykers or whatever. Bam. Problem solved.
They're literally sacrificing a thousand Psykers a day already to feed the Emperor's power. I wonder how many more psykers they'd need to kill daily to create a gestalt psychic beacon themselves if the focal point got lost.
Ah, but maybe the thousand psykers a day are the entirety of the beacon and that long withered husk no longer has anything to do with things? Just a (heretical) thought.
The Emperor maintains strict control over the development of humanity and contributes directly to its survival by utilising his powers. He plays a vital role in space travel within the Imperium; in order to steer a craft over great distances, a human navigator uses a mental homing signal, a sort of psychic beacon to guide him through warp space. To provide a mental signal throughout human controlled space would not be possible to any ordinary psyker. However, the Emperor is no ordinary psyker - his powers go beyond those of mortals. Even so, the strain of transmitting a continuous signal would prove far too strenuous, and he merely concentrates his powers on directing a signal created by others.
These are the imperial servants known as the Adeptus Astronomica, psykers whose bodies and souls are leeched of energy. This energy is projected by the mind of the Emperor in the form of the psychic beacon known as the Astronomican. The sheer quantity of mental energy is vast, and only the mind of the Emperor is sufficient to handle so much raw power. The fate of the Adeptus Astronomica is a sad one, for their efforts soon reduce them to empty husks of bone and dry flesh. Many die every day. They are not the only psykers who are asked to make the ultimate sacrifice, for the Emperor cannot eat as men eat, or drink fluids or breathe air. His life has passed beyond a point where such things can sustain him. For the Emperor the only viable sustenance is human life-force - soul - and he has a great and insatiable appetite. Nor will just any human suffice for this purpose, for the soul-donor must be a very special person in their own right, someone with psychic powers.
The Inquisition scours the Imperium in a tireless search for emergent psykers, individuals too vulnerable to be left alone. Some of these men and women will be recruited into the Adeptus Terra (especially the Adeptus Astronomica and Adeptus Astra Telepathica) but many more will serve their Emperor in a more gruesome way. Given up to the weird machinery that surrounds the Master of Mankind, their souls will be graduary leeched from their bodies to feed the Emperor's spirit.
Hundreds must die in this way every day if the Emperor, the Imperium and humanity are to survive.
Basically, there are a handful of (living) cells left of the Emperor that bind him to the Golden Throne. He isn't dead, but not really alive, either. Thus, he is The Carrion Lord of the Imperium. He uses his amassed power to take the psykers that act as a beacon on each plant to be a brighter beacon, which has the same effect as keeping a balloon connected to a helium cannister; eventually the balloon's eyes will explode and brain will leak out its ears as its soul sputters and fizzles out in the warp.
These beacon make up the Astronomican, which is essentially a super-highway that exists in the warp; if you ever get off of the highway, you'll wind up several lightyears from where you started, and possibly forward or backward in time.
Or is that what the corrupt Lords of Earth want you to think? That's the benefit of presenting most of their fluff from in universe reports. It's all mutable if the original author turns out to be wrong or lying.
Almost right - warp storms are occuring as the Eldar civilisation collapses, and the birth of Slaanesh blows them all away (or sucks them into the Eye) setting the path in motion for the Great Crusade to leave Terra and reunite humanity now the warp storms are gone. The collapse of the Eldar civilisation pretty much drags all the other interplanetary civilisations with it (explaining why only humans and orks are really present during the age of the Imperium in any real numbers). The Ad Mech periodically sent ships out during brief lulls in the warp storms, founding the knight worlds, but weren't really an empire.
The main problem with 40K fluff is the interaction between the eldar and human pre imperium empire. It really doesn't pass a 'stress test' for them to coexist. I always felt that the alternate explanation that the eldar empire had already fallen, and Slaanesh was simply 'rising' from the warp as the humans had their golden age was better.
I never really thought there was a human 'empire', just a few scattered worlds at the edge of sectors with few webway links or on worlds reclaimed form orks. Plus the Eldar weren't really at the height of their empire during the Dark Age but in their dwindling decadent phase - they might make an effort to shift alien colonists off Terraformed worlds but that's really just an excuse to play court intrigue and show someone up or set up a stable supply of slaves.
Humans start off at the edges and slowly encroach on the dwindling Eldar empire along with the Orks, whilst the Eldar themselves are too inwardly focused to put a stop to it until it's too late. They'd probably react violently if you actually interfered with them but are probably quite isolationist by then - leaving the central planets to fight a war is too risky in terms of losing favours and getting behind in political games and fashion to warrant it.
Or is that what the corrupt Lords of Earth want you to think? That's the benefit of presenting most of their fluff from in universe reports. It's all mutable if the original author turns out to be wrong or lying.
True, but the common thought of the Imperium as a whole is that the Emperor is still alive and wholly intact, sitting on the Golden Throne and directing the High Lords; only the High Lords and such know really know the truth. The author is presenting this as what is actually happening, rather than "this is what Imperials actually believe".
It may indeed be retconned into what you say, but as of now that bit of fluff has be repeated in most 40k books without change.
Waffles or whateverPreviously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen"Registered Userregular
edited April 2011
While I love Warhammer 40k lore and the grim dark universe something actually needs to happen. Like once every five years we get a major codex release (Most recent being that invasion of Cadia) where "fans" get to influence it. I use finger quotes because apparently at the tournaments Chaos got its ass on a platter. Games Workshop freaked out at the results and decided to retcon it so that Chaos wouldn't be utterly destroyed.
That's a small complaint, but my main point still stands. Why can't some catastrophic event take place effectively changing the universe? It doesn't necessarily have to change the table top game play, but for fucks sake. Lets get some storyline progression going. Why can't we see the Tyranids actually make it to Terra, or the C'tan God on Mars rise, a giant Crusade on the Eye of Terror to destroy the Chaos Gods, or even the Emperor DYING and (The Books say it) coming back as a God. Shit, MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN. You can literally figure out how Warhammer 40k storyline has gone with this copy paste chart
On the Imperium World of X, a Y occured forcing Z to happen
X - Type of Imperium World
Y - Orc, Chaos, Eldar, Tau, Necron, Tyranid, heretic revolt, etc.
Z - Exteriminatus
Because GW needs to keep selling their stuff. And their most popular stuff is Space Marine stuff.
One encounter with a tyranid hivefleet almost completely wiped out the Ultramarines. If the Tyranid main branch of hivefleets reached earth most space marines would be killed (or most tyranids) and it would fundamentally change the armies involved which might impact sales
- and sales is all they really care about, which is understandable.
Maybe in the future they'll launch a new line of toys called "Warhammer: 60.000" and reinvent the story from there while continuing the 40K stuff as its separate franchise.
They gotta be making some extra money on all these 40K and Warhammer fantasy games coming out
Besides, they've built everything up so damn much, they've made it so that anything interesting that could happen in the universe is a game-changing apocalypse of galactic proportions.
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
Does fantasy Warhammer have anything to do with 40K? Like, is the original the genesis and it turns out that humans of Warhammer killed all other races on the world and that led to the space age of humans where the other races had their own homeworlds? I know I'm not making much sense but I've been wondering for a while.
Old lore used to state that the Warhammer world was a planet in the 40K universe or a lost planet in the warp, but new lore seems to suggest that it is not the case anymore and that the two franchises are entirely separate
I think the old lore said something like a mystic (in warhammer fantasy) having a vision of space marines or something to that effect
40k is a setting, not a story. It's built in a way that characters can perform actions that effect trillions of people without moving the setting forward. This way they can sell oodles of Black Library books and make new, world destroying characters that work in a very large scope without having to have a consensus with the head fluff writers.
I very highly doubt that anything will ever happen with the Emperor or the Laughing God, unless there's a complete reboot of the setting in the future.
It's very hard to sell an ongoing story with regular updates to new comers as well. GW's main demographic doesn't play for very long, usually just a couple of years whilst at school.
Dude be calm. It's not worth an argument :P I'm loving this thread and my lurking in the CF 40K thread for nostalgia of a GW obsessed teenagehood, but people getting all worked up about things is one part of the Warhammer memory train I could live without!
literally no one is arguing, what are you talking about
Oh god the Laughing God. I'd kill a man to see that sub plot continue a little bit. Dude runs around the Webway guiding the Harlequins and protecting the Black Library. I want to know about his god like attributes and what he does to poke at Chaos.
Maybe in the future they'll launch a new line of toys called "Warhammer: 60.000" and reinvent the story from there while continuing the 40K stuff as its separate franchise.
They gotta be making some extra money on all these 40K and Warhammer fantasy games coming out
Nah GW is constantly plodding the 40k story forward. In the last couple years there have been some pretty big events going on with the necron awakening/pylon thing, Tau expanding, and a new hive fleet. They are leading upto some things going on it's just not a fast story in any sense of the word.
randombattle on
I never asked for this!
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Waffles or whateverPreviously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen"Registered Userregular
edited April 2011
You guys just got me looking at the Games Workshop stuff for Warhammer. Grey Knights are their own independent Army now? I'd consider making a Grey Knight Army if I got back into it. The cost is the only think that dissuades me from doing it. Even with a job Warhammer is damn expensive.
Maybe in the future they'll launch a new line of toys called "Warhammer: 60.000" and reinvent the story from there while continuing the 40K stuff as its separate franchise.
They gotta be making some extra money on all these 40K and Warhammer fantasy games coming out
Nah GW is constantly plodding the 40k story forward. In the last couple years there have been some pretty big events going on with the necron awakening/pylon thing, Tau expanding, and a new hive fleet. They are leading upto some things going on it's just not a fast story in any sense of the word.
It's a shame that they stopped doing the annual campaigns. That was a great way to move the story forward, while letting players have input on it.
I find it very interesting that the only piece of canon Warhammer to go into the 42nd Millenium is the Ciaphas Cain series.
Still doesn't mean that when the Emperor goes to that great battlebarge in the sky that the Emperium can't daisy-chain psykers together and create a substitute for him. I doubt his end will be the end of warp-travel, as some people like to sell it
while having their AI legions beating back orks and eldar and anything else that comes along the way.
...what?
Humanity used to use robots to do all the mundane stuff for them.
Then the Iron Men rebellion happened.
They don't use AIs anymore. At all.
No no, I know that. But I thought up until the fall of the Eldar (birth of Slaanesh, creation of the Eye of Terror) the Eldar were firmly in control of the Milky Way. As in: dominant species deluxe, height of their power, full control of their technology, large population, etc. So the thought of human robots beating the incredibly ancient god race back strikes me as...silly.
From what some of the fluff suggests Humanity and the Eldar Empire were a little more 'friendly' then they are currently in 40K. Now by no means were they best friends but I think they tended to avoid each other. But from the vague indications the Men of Iron were something not to be trifled with. Of course there is also the whole problem of who the Men of Stone were and if the Men of Gold was actually Humanity or giant overseer world computers or something.
But of course during this whole time the Emperor was farting around directing everything from the background and trying to subtly guide mankind to it's final destiny. Although given his current state I think he 'done goofed' just a little bit more than he expected.
They weren't doing that in the Horus Heresy books though were they? Think we're at the point where they've no idea what they are doing any more, but don't want to risk the end of the species to find out.
Well, they haven't even gotten to the battle for Terra yet, and apparently that marks the halfway point. So, yeah. It's basically an excuse to write as much as possible.
You guys just got me looking at the Games Workshop stuff for Warhammer. Grey Knights are their own independent Army now? I'd consider making a Grey Knight Army if I got back into it. The cost is the only think that dissuades me from doing it. Even with a job Warhammer is damn expensive.
Just going to say it: While the initial cost may look very high a harsh realization needs to be made. The money you spend on video games, computer upgrades, console games/subscriptions, MMO subscriptions, and just about any other hobby outside of reading/writting, is more expensive then Tabletop gaming when you calculate dollars to entertainment possibility.
If you buy a brand new computer game for 50 or 60 bucks, and get an average of 40 hours of play time (60+ with the high end RPG's, but those are few and far between), you're looking at $1.25 per hour of entertainment. This isn't necessarily true all the time either. For instance I bought DA2 on release day for $60, and got 32 hours of play time since I couldn't force myself to play it again, a pretty huge cost/entertainment loss.
Say you buy a box of Space Marines for MSRP of $37 bucks. Figuring you've already bought the $10-$15 bucks in beginners paints and brushes (very long shelf life, cost mitigated by this...It's like buying your favorite CD that you listen to a bajillion times). You will spend about 10-20 hours in assembly and painting. At this point you're at $2.46 (averaged 15 hours of build/paint time) per hour of entertainment.
Now you play a game of 40k, this takes 1 to 2 hours. $2.17 per hour. Let's say you play 40k for 6 months total. You play twice a month for 4 hours total. Totaling 39 hours of invested entertainment. Your 10 marines has produced a aggregate value of $0.94 per hour of entertainment.
Fresh entertainment, it changes each game you play. It makes you use mental skills, tactical acumen, fine motor skills, expresses creativity, helps you make friends, gives you a guaranteed opportunity to socialize...
It boils down to the math that a $37 dollar box of models and fun turns into pennies per hour of entertainment. It's a better deal then video games, and just about any other hobby in the long run. Short run? Yeah it's pretty crappy. But it's also a hobby that will be around forever. You can keep buying in small doses over the next year and will still provide you entertainment in a decade.
Yes this is a rant, but not directed at the quoted poster. I just like to get it out there that while it looks "OMG HUGE $$$!" it's really a good deal and you don't have to spend $300 at once, you can spread it out over a couple months and still probably be painting/assembling in between purchases.
While I love Warhammer 40k lore and the grim dark universe something actually needs to happen. Like once every five years we get a major codex release (Most recent being that invasion of Cadia) where "fans" get to influence it. I use finger quotes because apparently at the tournaments Chaos got its ass on a platter. Games Workshop freaked out at the results and decided to retcon it so that Chaos wouldn't be utterly destroyed.
That's a small complaint, but my main point still stands. Why can't some catastrophic event take place effectively changing the universe? It doesn't necessarily have to change the table top game play, but for fucks sake. Lets get some storyline progression going. Why can't we see the Tyranids actually make it to Terra, or the C'tan God on Mars rise, a giant Crusade on the Eye of Terror to destroy the Chaos Gods, or even the Emperor DYING and (The Books say it) coming back as a God. Shit, MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN. You can literally figure out how Warhammer 40k storyline has gone with this copy paste chart
On the Imperium World of X, a Y occured forcing Z to happen
X - Type of Imperium World
Y - Orc, Chaos, Eldar, Tau, Necron, Tyranid, heretic revolt, etc.
Z - Exteriminatus
GW did this for a couple of years and I (vaguely) remember following it, but supposedly there were massive instances of cheating / fixing the system, and when GW tried to fix it innocent people got caught under their wheels so they just stopped doing it altogether.
Tetra on
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
I just like to get it out there that while it looks "OMG HUGE $$$!
Yeah, but let's not let all this wondrous value detract from the fact that Games Workshop charge a ridiculous amount, especially for plastic kits.
I just like to get it out there that while it looks "OMG HUGE $$$!
Yeah, but let's not let all this wondrous value detract from the fact that Games Workshop charge a ridiculous amount, especially for plastic kits.
Also, I haven't paid $50 for a PC game in a LONG time. Services like Steam have made PC gaming way more affordable, and even without that, price drops pretty quickly for digital entertainment compared to tabletop stuff.
Not that I disagree with the hours/dollar argument, but you can't really assume that all hours of fun are the same. I've paid $10 for tickets to a good movie, and $10 for tickets to a great movie.
I haven't paid more than $50 for a COD game and have gotten over 3 weeks of gametime in each one. Some of those hours were way more fun than I have painting, but way less fun than I have playing 40k. Just pointing out that since everyone enjoys certain parts of the hobby, not all hours are equal.
For a time I realized that I didn't much enjoy playing the game in my locale, so I just bought models, painted, and sold them on eBay. I'm not an amazing painter, but on eBay I was making $15-$25 per HQ unit painted to tabletop standards. The profit/hour wasn't good, but considering that it's a net gain per hour for entertainment, it's definitely better than having boxes of mans on sprues sitting in your closet.
No no, I know that. But I thought up until the fall of the Eldar (birth of Slaanesh, creation of the Eye of Terror) the Eldar were firmly in control of the Milky Way. As in: dominant species deluxe, height of their power, full control of their technology, large population, etc. So the thought of human robots beating the incredibly ancient god race back strikes me as...silly.
From what some of the fluff suggests Humanity and the Eldar Empire were a little more 'friendly' then they are currently in 40K. Now by no means were they best friends but I think they tended to avoid each other. But from the vague indications the Men of Iron were something not to be trifled with. Of course there is also the whole problem of who the Men of Stone were and if the Men of Gold was actually Humanity or giant overseer world computers or something.
But of course during this whole time the Emperor was farting around directing everything from the background and trying to subtly guide mankind to it's final destiny. Although given his current state I think he 'done goofed' just a little bit more than he expected.
Humans were barely monkeys by the time The Fall happened. Hence why Eldar call them Mon'keigh.
There is also the interesting view that the outcome of the hous heresy resulted in the best possible outcome for the chaos gods, 10,000 years of war (and the resultant chaos) and legions of very durable champions. Horus winning would have actually resulted in a short term victory for chaos that would have collapsed quickly.
The "fluff" outcome of the cadia summer campaign resulting in a deadlock is much the same. Neither side wins but the chaos gods become "stronger/fed" from the fallout occuring due to the deadlock.
It makes the chaos space marines rather tragic pawns.
Humans were barely monkeys by the time The Fall happened. Hence why Eldar call them Mon'keigh.
That's just the Eldar name for humans. It doesn't literally mean "monkey". I don't think so, anyways.
I was always under the impression the name was an honest in-universe Eldar word, but a meta-joke. Players are meant to go "oh, ho, ho! humans are so lowly that Eldar coincidentally call them a word similar to monkey!"
Klash on
We don't even care... whether we care or not...
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LokiDon't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
Maybe in the future they'll launch a new line of toys called "Warhammer: 60.000" and reinvent the story from there while continuing the 40K stuff as its separate franchise.
They gotta be making some extra money on all these 40K and Warhammer fantasy games coming out
Nah GW is constantly plodding the 40k story forward. In the last couple years there have been some pretty big events going on with the necron awakening/pylon thing, Tau expanding, and a new hive fleet. They are leading upto some things going on it's just not a fast story in any sense of the word.
The last 3 things that happened were based on global campaigns. Armageddon, where neither side won, and is now in the fluff changed into a war mecca for Orks. The 13th Black Crusade, where Abaddon acheived landing on Cadia and not a whole lot more. Tau expanded their empire from nothing to nothing. Then Medusa V where... not a whole lot happened in the grand scheme of things.
The global campaigns are a cool way for the community to wite a little bit of 40k fluff through their actions, like the Ork community banding together to have all their wins counted on one planet and taking it, but they don't advance the story. The story hasn't really ever advanced, it's just expanded sideways. We hear about more happening at about the same time, but it's always 'mankind is on the edge of destruction in m40.999'.
No no, I know that. But I thought up until the fall of the Eldar (birth of Slaanesh, creation of the Eye of Terror) the Eldar were firmly in control of the Milky Way. As in: dominant species deluxe, height of their power, full control of their technology, large population, etc. So the thought of human robots beating the incredibly ancient god race back strikes me as...silly.
From what some of the fluff suggests Humanity and the Eldar Empire were a little more 'friendly' then they are currently in 40K. Now by no means were they best friends but I think they tended to avoid each other. But from the vague indications the Men of Iron were something not to be trifled with. Of course there is also the whole problem of who the Men of Stone were and if the Men of Gold was actually Humanity or giant overseer world computers or something.
But of course during this whole time the Emperor was farting around directing everything from the background and trying to subtly guide mankind to it's final destiny. Although given his current state I think he 'done goofed' just a little bit more than he expected.
Humans were barely monkeys by the time The Fall happened. Hence why Eldar call them Mon'keigh.
Uh, the Fall happened just prior to the great crusade. It's just a play on words.
No no, I know that. But I thought up until the fall of the Eldar (birth of Slaanesh, creation of the Eye of Terror) the Eldar were firmly in control of the Milky Way. As in: dominant species deluxe, height of their power, full control of their technology, large population, etc. So the thought of human robots beating the incredibly ancient god race back strikes me as...silly.
From what some of the fluff suggests Humanity and the Eldar Empire were a little more 'friendly' then they are currently in 40K. Now by no means were they best friends but I think they tended to avoid each other. But from the vague indications the Men of Iron were something not to be trifled with. Of course there is also the whole problem of who the Men of Stone were and if the Men of Gold was actually Humanity or giant overseer world computers or something.
But of course during this whole time the Emperor was farting around directing everything from the background and trying to subtly guide mankind to it's final destiny. Although given his current state I think he 'done goofed' just a little bit more than he expected.
Humans were barely monkeys by the time The Fall happened. Hence why Eldar call them Mon'keigh.
Uh, the Fall happened just prior to the great crusade. It's just a play on words.
Yup. We were rockin things when the Fall started, according to the official timeline.
No no, I know that. But I thought up until the fall of the Eldar (birth of Slaanesh, creation of the Eye of Terror) the Eldar were firmly in control of the Milky Way. As in: dominant species deluxe, height of their power, full control of their technology, large population, etc. So the thought of human robots beating the incredibly ancient god race back strikes me as...silly.
From what some of the fluff suggests Humanity and the Eldar Empire were a little more 'friendly' then they are currently in 40K. Now by no means were they best friends but I think they tended to avoid each other. But from the vague indications the Men of Iron were something not to be trifled with. Of course there is also the whole problem of who the Men of Stone were and if the Men of Gold was actually Humanity or giant overseer world computers or something.
But of course during this whole time the Emperor was farting around directing everything from the background and trying to subtly guide mankind to it's final destiny. Although given his current state I think he 'done goofed' just a little bit more than he expected.
Humans were barely monkeys by the time The Fall happened. Hence why Eldar call them Mon'keigh.
Uh, the Fall happened just prior to the great crusade. It's just a play on words.
Yeah, humans were actual real humans and had their civilizations going. However the Eldar saw themselves so superior to the humans (and still do) that they basically look at them as apes and beasts
No no, I know that. But I thought up until the fall of the Eldar (birth of Slaanesh, creation of the Eye of Terror) the Eldar were firmly in control of the Milky Way. As in: dominant species deluxe, height of their power, full control of their technology, large population, etc. So the thought of human robots beating the incredibly ancient god race back strikes me as...silly.
From what some of the fluff suggests Humanity and the Eldar Empire were a little more 'friendly' then they are currently in 40K. Now by no means were they best friends but I think they tended to avoid each other. But from the vague indications the Men of Iron were something not to be trifled with. Of course there is also the whole problem of who the Men of Stone were and if the Men of Gold was actually Humanity or giant overseer world computers or something.
But of course during this whole time the Emperor was farting around directing everything from the background and trying to subtly guide mankind to it's final destiny. Although given his current state I think he 'done goofed' just a little bit more than he expected.
Humans were barely monkeys by the time The Fall happened. Hence why Eldar call them Mon'keigh.
Uh, the Fall happened just prior to the great crusade. It's just a play on words.
Yeah, humans were actual real humans and had their civilizations going. However the Eldar saw themselves so superior to the humans (and still do) that they basically look at them as apes and beasts
And yet they wear the stupidest headgear in the entire setting.
No no, I know that. But I thought up until the fall of the Eldar (birth of Slaanesh, creation of the Eye of Terror) the Eldar were firmly in control of the Milky Way. As in: dominant species deluxe, height of their power, full control of their technology, large population, etc. So the thought of human robots beating the incredibly ancient god race back strikes me as...silly.
From what some of the fluff suggests Humanity and the Eldar Empire were a little more 'friendly' then they are currently in 40K. Now by no means were they best friends but I think they tended to avoid each other. But from the vague indications the Men of Iron were something not to be trifled with. Of course there is also the whole problem of who the Men of Stone were and if the Men of Gold was actually Humanity or giant overseer world computers or something.
But of course during this whole time the Emperor was farting around directing everything from the background and trying to subtly guide mankind to it's final destiny. Although given his current state I think he 'done goofed' just a little bit more than he expected.
Humans were barely monkeys by the time The Fall happened. Hence why Eldar call them Mon'keigh.
Uh, the Fall happened just prior to the great crusade. It's just a play on words.
Yeah, humans were actual real humans and had their civilizations going. However the Eldar saw themselves so superior to the humans (and still do) that they basically look at them as apes and beasts
And yet they wear the stupidest headgear in the entire setting.
Maybe to us simple monkey folk, but really it's a sign of great beauty in Eldar society. Our feeble minds will never be able to comprehend Eldar fashion.
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The main problem with 40K fluff is the interaction between the eldar and human pre imperium empire. It really doesn't pass a 'stress test' for them to coexist. I always felt that the alternate explanation that the eldar empire had already fallen, and Slaanesh was simply 'rising' from the warp as the humans had their golden age was better.
Oh, and your fluff for the early history should go....
Old Ones are the first race, they develop psychic powers and do what the hell they like.
Necrontyr (proto necrons) are jealous of the Old Ones, and do epic battle with them. They are smashed down, and retreat to a few stars. Old Ones leave them alone because they don't view them as any kind of threat.
Necrontyr discover C'Tan eating the stars. They worship them, and the C'Tan promise to rebuild them to defeat the old ones if they free them and build them new bodies.
The Necrontyr free the C'Tan, who promptly betray them and devour them and put their husks into machine bodies.
The Necrons and C'Tan engage the Old Ones, who are rapidly put on the back foot and seem to be doomed.
They manipulate/create their client races, the Orks, Eldar and others and begin to weaponize psychic powers.
With the C'Tan on one side, and the vast Psychic might of the Eldar and Old Ones on the other, the war stalemates into a brutal bloodbath.
This is when most of the classic eldar legends are born, with the Old Ones doing battle with the Necrons. These then repeat themselves later at the height of the eldar empire when their warp entity gods do the same thing.
There's so much killing, that the warp becomes full of demons who begin to possess and destroy everything. The C'Tan find they can gain no sustenance from demons, and fall back before them, deciding to wait. The Old Ones either flee or are destroyed
Specifically the "Enslavers" who destroyed most of all life causing the Necrons to fall back and Old Ones to go extinct
Indeed, you are still too carebear about this. The Tau aren't the Eldars friends, they're their pawns.
You need to think of it more in terms of the Soviet bloc. The Tau are an Eldar experiment with the specific purpose of giving them a meatshield race to send after this or that or what have you without endangering the increasingly less numerous, utterly superior Eldar race anymore than strictly necessary.
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Or is that what the corrupt Lords of Earth want you to think? That's the benefit of presenting most of their fluff from in universe reports. It's all mutable if the original author turns out to be wrong or lying.
I never really thought there was a human 'empire', just a few scattered worlds at the edge of sectors with few webway links or on worlds reclaimed form orks. Plus the Eldar weren't really at the height of their empire during the Dark Age but in their dwindling decadent phase - they might make an effort to shift alien colonists off Terraformed worlds but that's really just an excuse to play court intrigue and show someone up or set up a stable supply of slaves.
Humans start off at the edges and slowly encroach on the dwindling Eldar empire along with the Orks, whilst the Eldar themselves are too inwardly focused to put a stop to it until it's too late. They'd probably react violently if you actually interfered with them but are probably quite isolationist by then - leaving the central planets to fight a war is too risky in terms of losing favours and getting behind in political games and fashion to warrant it.
True, but the common thought of the Imperium as a whole is that the Emperor is still alive and wholly intact, sitting on the Golden Throne and directing the High Lords; only the High Lords and such know really know the truth. The author is presenting this as what is actually happening, rather than "this is what Imperials actually believe".
It may indeed be retconned into what you say, but as of now that bit of fluff has be repeated in most 40k books without change.
That's a small complaint, but my main point still stands. Why can't some catastrophic event take place effectively changing the universe? It doesn't necessarily have to change the table top game play, but for fucks sake. Lets get some storyline progression going. Why can't we see the Tyranids actually make it to Terra, or the C'tan God on Mars rise, a giant Crusade on the Eye of Terror to destroy the Chaos Gods, or even the Emperor DYING and (The Books say it) coming back as a God. Shit, MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN. You can literally figure out how Warhammer 40k storyline has gone with this copy paste chart
On the Imperium World of X, a Y occured forcing Z to happen
X - Type of Imperium World
Y - Orc, Chaos, Eldar, Tau, Necron, Tyranid, heretic revolt, etc.
Z - Exteriminatus
One encounter with a tyranid hivefleet almost completely wiped out the Ultramarines. If the Tyranid main branch of hivefleets reached earth most space marines would be killed (or most tyranids) and it would fundamentally change the armies involved which might impact sales
- and sales is all they really care about, which is understandable.
Maybe in the future they'll launch a new line of toys called "Warhammer: 60.000" and reinvent the story from there while continuing the 40K stuff as its separate franchise.
They gotta be making some extra money on all these 40K and Warhammer fantasy games coming out
I think the old lore said something like a mystic (in warhammer fantasy) having a vision of space marines or something to that effect
I very highly doubt that anything will ever happen with the Emperor or the Laughing God, unless there's a complete reboot of the setting in the future.
literally no one is arguing, what are you talking about
unless you think that clarification is arguing
Nah GW is constantly plodding the 40k story forward. In the last couple years there have been some pretty big events going on with the necron awakening/pylon thing, Tau expanding, and a new hive fleet. They are leading upto some things going on it's just not a fast story in any sense of the word.
I never asked for this!
To me, Warhammer has always been about the enormous library of lore and more recently also the dawn of war franchise.
I mean, if you like easily digested sci-fi you can't go wrong with 24 years worth of warhammer lore
I never asked for this!
It's a shame that they stopped doing the annual campaigns. That was a great way to move the story forward, while letting players have input on it.
I find it very interesting that the only piece of canon Warhammer to go into the 42nd Millenium is the Ciaphas Cain series.
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From what some of the fluff suggests Humanity and the Eldar Empire were a little more 'friendly' then they are currently in 40K. Now by no means were they best friends but I think they tended to avoid each other. But from the vague indications the Men of Iron were something not to be trifled with. Of course there is also the whole problem of who the Men of Stone were and if the Men of Gold was actually Humanity or giant overseer world computers or something.
But of course during this whole time the Emperor was farting around directing everything from the background and trying to subtly guide mankind to it's final destiny. Although given his current state I think he 'done goofed' just a little bit more than he expected.
Well, they haven't even gotten to the battle for Terra yet, and apparently that marks the halfway point. So, yeah. It's basically an excuse to write as much as possible.
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Just going to say it: While the initial cost may look very high a harsh realization needs to be made. The money you spend on video games, computer upgrades, console games/subscriptions, MMO subscriptions, and just about any other hobby outside of reading/writting, is more expensive then Tabletop gaming when you calculate dollars to entertainment possibility.
If you buy a brand new computer game for 50 or 60 bucks, and get an average of 40 hours of play time (60+ with the high end RPG's, but those are few and far between), you're looking at $1.25 per hour of entertainment. This isn't necessarily true all the time either. For instance I bought DA2 on release day for $60, and got 32 hours of play time since I couldn't force myself to play it again, a pretty huge cost/entertainment loss.
Say you buy a box of Space Marines for MSRP of $37 bucks. Figuring you've already bought the $10-$15 bucks in beginners paints and brushes (very long shelf life, cost mitigated by this...It's like buying your favorite CD that you listen to a bajillion times). You will spend about 10-20 hours in assembly and painting. At this point you're at $2.46 (averaged 15 hours of build/paint time) per hour of entertainment.
Now you play a game of 40k, this takes 1 to 2 hours. $2.17 per hour. Let's say you play 40k for 6 months total. You play twice a month for 4 hours total. Totaling 39 hours of invested entertainment. Your 10 marines has produced a aggregate value of $0.94 per hour of entertainment.
Fresh entertainment, it changes each game you play. It makes you use mental skills, tactical acumen, fine motor skills, expresses creativity, helps you make friends, gives you a guaranteed opportunity to socialize...
It boils down to the math that a $37 dollar box of models and fun turns into pennies per hour of entertainment. It's a better deal then video games, and just about any other hobby in the long run. Short run? Yeah it's pretty crappy. But it's also a hobby that will be around forever. You can keep buying in small doses over the next year and will still provide you entertainment in a decade.
Yes this is a rant, but not directed at the quoted poster. I just like to get it out there that while it looks "OMG HUGE $$$!" it's really a good deal and you don't have to spend $300 at once, you can spread it out over a couple months and still probably be painting/assembling in between purchases.
GW did this for a couple of years and I (vaguely) remember following it, but supposedly there were massive instances of cheating / fixing the system, and when GW tried to fix it innocent people got caught under their wheels so they just stopped doing it altogether.
Yeah, but let's not let all this wondrous value detract from the fact that Games Workshop charge a ridiculous amount, especially for plastic kits.
Also, I haven't paid $50 for a PC game in a LONG time. Services like Steam have made PC gaming way more affordable, and even without that, price drops pretty quickly for digital entertainment compared to tabletop stuff.
Granted, I'll be the first to bitch when I need to buy a Land Raider or something.
I haven't paid more than $50 for a COD game and have gotten over 3 weeks of gametime in each one. Some of those hours were way more fun than I have painting, but way less fun than I have playing 40k. Just pointing out that since everyone enjoys certain parts of the hobby, not all hours are equal.
For a time I realized that I didn't much enjoy playing the game in my locale, so I just bought models, painted, and sold them on eBay. I'm not an amazing painter, but on eBay I was making $15-$25 per HQ unit painted to tabletop standards. The profit/hour wasn't good, but considering that it's a net gain per hour for entertainment, it's definitely better than having boxes of mans on sprues sitting in your closet.
Humans were barely monkeys by the time The Fall happened. Hence why Eldar call them Mon'keigh.
The "fluff" outcome of the cadia summer campaign resulting in a deadlock is much the same. Neither side wins but the chaos gods become "stronger/fed" from the fallout occuring due to the deadlock.
It makes the chaos space marines rather tragic pawns.
That's just the Eldar name for humans. It doesn't literally mean "monkey". I don't think so, anyways.
I was always under the impression the name was an honest in-universe Eldar word, but a meta-joke. Players are meant to go "oh, ho, ho! humans are so lowly that Eldar coincidentally call them a word similar to monkey!"
The last 3 things that happened were based on global campaigns. Armageddon, where neither side won, and is now in the fluff changed into a war mecca for Orks. The 13th Black Crusade, where Abaddon acheived landing on Cadia and not a whole lot more. Tau expanded their empire from nothing to nothing. Then Medusa V where... not a whole lot happened in the grand scheme of things.
The global campaigns are a cool way for the community to wite a little bit of 40k fluff through their actions, like the Ork community banding together to have all their wins counted on one planet and taking it, but they don't advance the story. The story hasn't really ever advanced, it's just expanded sideways. We hear about more happening at about the same time, but it's always 'mankind is on the edge of destruction in m40.999'.
Uh, the Fall happened just prior to the great crusade. It's just a play on words.
Yup. We were rockin things when the Fall started, according to the official timeline.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Yeah, humans were actual real humans and had their civilizations going. However the Eldar saw themselves so superior to the humans (and still do) that they basically look at them as apes and beasts
And yet they wear the stupidest headgear in the entire setting.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Dark Eldar wins the MY HELMET IS HUGE prize
The opening to Lost Odyssey would like to dispute who has the most excessive helmets.
On topic: All of this 40k is making me want to get back into the miniature game now that I'm finally done with college.
Maybe to us simple monkey folk, but really it's a sign of great beauty in Eldar society. Our feeble minds will never be able to comprehend Eldar fashion.
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