Am I the only one who doesn't like Zabraks? I feel like they are way too overused these days. I would have enjoyed that Sith Inquisitor video a whole lot more if the character were anything other than a zabrak.
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Am I the only one who doesn't like Zabraks? I feel like they are way too overused these days. I would have enjoyed that Sith Inquisitor video a whole lot more if the character were anything other than a zabrak.
Am I the only one who doesn't like Zabraks? I feel like they are way too overused these days. I would have enjoyed that Sith Inquisitor video a whole lot more if the character were anything other than a zabrak.
I am not racist.
Seriously though whats wrong with zabraks?
It's like, there was one Zabrak in one of the horrible prequel movies, and that one Zabrak happened to be kind of a bad ass, and now every game has to feature a Zabrak who is kind of a bad ass because how can you have horns sticking out of your head and tattoos all over your face unless you're some kind of bad ass?
Like, oh shit, kids, there's a Zabrak walking this way. Quick, cross the street!
Am I the only one who doesn't like Zabraks? I feel like they are way too overused these days. I would have enjoyed that Sith Inquisitor video a whole lot more if the character were anything other than a zabrak.
I am not racist.
Seriously though whats wrong with zabraks?
It's like, there was one Zabrak in one of the horrible prequel movies, and that one Zabrak happened to be kind of a bad ass, and now every game has to feature a Zabrak who is kind of a bad ass because how can you have horns sticking out of your head and tattoos all over your face unless you're some kind of bad ass?
Like, oh shit, kids, there's a Zabrak walking this way. Quick, cross the street!
Its Star Wars, all the races are a cheap stereotypes based off of one character from a movie.
Am I the only one who doesn't like Zabraks? I feel like they are way too overused these days. I would have enjoyed that Sith Inquisitor video a whole lot more if the character were anything other than a zabrak.
I am not racist.
Seriously though whats wrong with zabraks?
It's like, there was one Zabrak in one of the horrible prequel movies, and that one Zabrak happened to be kind of a bad ass, and now every game has to feature a Zabrak who is kind of a bad ass because how can you have horns sticking out of your head and tattoos all over your face unless you're some kind of bad ass?
Like, oh shit, kids, there's a Zabrak walking this way. Quick, cross the street!
Its Star Wars, all the races are a cheap stereotypes based off of one character from a movie.
Yes, well, it's much easier for people in this thread to roll their eyes and say "fuckin' Zabraks" than it is for us to go through the same gesture and go "fuckin' Star Wars." Though in fairness, it is sort of the fault of the intellectual property and those to whom it's licensed out for its perpetuation that we never see Zabrak bus boys at an interstellar T.G.I. Fridays and not the fault of the Zabrak per se.
Am I the only one who doesn't like Zabraks? I feel like they are way too overused these days. I would have enjoyed that Sith Inquisitor video a whole lot more if the character were anything other than a zabrak.
I am not racist.
Seriously though whats wrong with zabraks?
It's like, there was one Zabrak in one of the horrible prequel movies, and that one Zabrak happened to be kind of a bad ass, and now every game has to feature a Zabrak who is kind of a bad ass because how can you have horns sticking out of your head and tattoos all over your face unless you're some kind of bad ass?
Like, oh shit, kids, there's a Zabrak walking this way. Quick, cross the street!
Its Star Wars, all the races are a cheap stereotypes based off of one character from a movie.
Yes, well, it's much easier for people in this thread to roll their eyes and say "fuckin' Zabraks" than it is for us to go through the same gesture and go "fuckin' Star Wars." Though in fairness, it is sort of the fault of the intellectual property and those to whom it's licensed out for its perpetuation that we never see Zabrak bus boys at an interstellar T.G.I. Fridays and not the fault of the Zabrak per se.
Every Bothan is a spy, every Twi`Lek is a whore, it is the way of the universe.
That is the reason I don't want to play MMOs anymore actually, very little skill involved, mostly just gear. I quit PvP before the Arena but WoW was kind of a joke really, almost entirely item dependent. Maybe TOR will be a little different, who knows until it comes out though.
If there was no skill involved in MMOS, people wouldn't suck so much at them. There's tons of people with good gear who just can't fucking play. And the reason that distinction exists is because skill is quite important.
I disagree with that, WoW was completely a gear dependent game its just that most of the time people had similar gear.
This is by design. Sure you can outgear content, but the idea of any MMO is to put current content at the level where it isn't possible to outgear it.
PvP obviously throws a wrench in the works somewhat and many games are still trying to figure out how to handle that. How to balance the RPG part (where you get gear or something else to improve your character) with a competitive environment where you want everyone on a roughly equal footing.
There just isn't anything you can do when you are out geared, skill goes out the window.
It's rather hard in WoW pvp to outgear the opposition enough that skill goes out the window. I don't even think it's possible these days.
We won't really know until we start playing. But it does sound like Bioware is aware of that from WoW and wants TOR to be different.
From interviews I've read they seem to want PvP to be partially about gear, partially your skill as a player, and partially about you and your team working together.
How is that any different from any other game?
PvP in any game (not just MMOs) is always partiall about player skill and partially about team-work. And then ther may or may not be a "gear" component of some sort. But it's always the first 2 and then maybe the 3rd one.
That is the reason I don't want to play MMOs anymore actually, very little skill involved, mostly just gear. I quit PvP before the Arena but WoW was kind of a joke really, almost entirely item dependent. Maybe TOR will be a little different, who knows until it comes out though.
We won't really know until we start playing. But it does sound like Bioware is aware of that from WoW and wants TOR to be different.
From interviews I've read they seem to want PvP to be partially about gear, partially your skill as a player, and partially about you and your team working together.
You can see this in some of the recent features they've announced.
Resolve makes you immune to CC. So that immediately makes CC more strategic (you could actually lose a fight because you went too CC heavy at the start and ended up fighting a bunch of immune players - can't say that about WoW).
Guard lets tanks be viable in PvP as meat shields, with positioning being a big part of it. And the taunt will let you cut a teams DPS down.
Plus they've promised combat in general is going to be a bit less about rotations like in WoW, with a lot more situational skills that could make or break a fight.
I am all for getting rid of the rotation, the rotation was idiotic. Rogues were the worst actually, and another reason why the stats can fail/why I hate crit/miss. Just based on your gear and some numbers that should have nothing to do with the fight you can lose because you missed, or you can win because you got a lucky streak of 4 crits in a row. Its idiotic and random and has no place in PvP.
How do you design a class that doesn't have a rotation or priority system? (which are basically the same thing)
Saying you are going to replace rotations with "more situational skills that could make or break a fight" doesn't even make any sense.
Re: MMOs & skill, I have a hard time buying that argument wholesale when there are situations you can come up against where skill simply does not matter. In early WoW, if my Warrior came up against a halfway descent Mage, I was toast. Didn't matter how "skillful" I was; the best Warrior player in existence wouldn't be able to break the myriad of CC long enough to do enough damage.
It's certainly a factor, but it's never going to be about just skill (or even mostly skill) as long as there's an uneven playing field.
There's the important part. You are still talking about a certain level of skill.
That is the reason I don't want to play MMOs anymore actually, very little skill involved, mostly just gear. I quit PvP before the Arena but WoW was kind of a joke really, almost entirely item dependent. Maybe TOR will be a little different, who knows until it comes out though.
We won't really know until we start playing. But it does sound like Bioware is aware of that from WoW and wants TOR to be different.
From interviews I've read they seem to want PvP to be partially about gear, partially your skill as a player, and partially about you and your team working together.
You can see this in some of the recent features they've announced.
Resolve makes you immune to CC. So that immediately makes CC more strategic (you could actually lose a fight because you went too CC heavy at the start and ended up fighting a bunch of immune players - can't say that about WoW).
Guard lets tanks be viable in PvP as meat shields, with positioning being a big part of it. And the taunt will let you cut a teams DPS down.
Plus they've promised combat in general is going to be a bit less about rotations like in WoW, with a lot more situational skills that could make or break a fight.
I am all for getting rid of the rotation, the rotation was idiotic. Rogues were the worst actually, and another reason why the stats can fail/why I hate crit/miss. Just based on your gear and some numbers that should have nothing to do with the fight you can lose because you missed, or you can win because you got a lucky streak of 4 crits in a row. Its idiotic and random and has no place in PvP.
How do you design a class that doesn't have a rotation or priority system? (which are basically the same thing)
Saying you are going to replace rotations with "more situational skills that could make or break a fight" doesn't even make any sense.
A rotation and a priority system aren't the same thing. A rotation is "I press this, then that, then that, then repeat." Its a set, brainless rotation of skills that never changes.
Priorites are a step up in complexity. You have skills you prefer, but depending on what is going on you need to change things up. Often they'd be a mix of offensive and defensive skills. Personally I used to love old school shaman because my totem set and the skills I used were completely different depending on who I was fighting.
Situational skills are like what I explained earlier with CC. Take Warlocks or Priests in WoW right now. Somebody gets in their face, they blow their fears. No though, no strategy. Its a reaction. Take that to TOR and if you're in a 4v4 and your team blows all of their CC at the beginning, toward the end of the fight you're going to find yourself at a disadvantage.
Same for guarding and taunting with the tank type classes. are you lazy and just keep a guard on one person? Or do you move it around trying to put it on somebody who's getting focuses? Can you pick out somebody beating on a friend and use your taunt to mitigate some of the damage?
Re: MMOs & skill, I have a hard time buying that argument wholesale when there are situations you can come up against where skill simply does not matter. In early WoW, if my Warrior came up against a halfway descent Mage, I was toast. Didn't matter how "skillful" I was; the best Warrior player in existence wouldn't be able to break the myriad of CC long enough to do enough damage.
It's certainly a factor, but it's never going to be about just skill (or even mostly skill) as long as there's an uneven playing field.
There's the important part. You are still talking about a certain level of skill.
You're right, it's partly hyperbole. But the point remains salient.
When the level of skill is less important than the quality of gear (or classes of the participants), skill is not the main determinant of the result.
if (low skill Mage > high skill Warrior), the skill part of the equation is irrelevant.
I think folks need to realize there are always going to be multiple factors in determining the outcome of a fight - all with big shade of grey.
The question for me is how much emphasis is placed on each of those pieces?
If you're looking at a 1v1 fight, determinants are ...
The trick for any game with PvP is to find the right balancing act between each of those when creating their combat system.
For me, WoW has too much of their chips pushed toward gear and your class. There are players out there who are horrible, but run around kicking the snot out of folks because they play a FOTM class and are well geared.
I'm hoping TOR pushes more of the outcome toward skill, with classes being a bit more balanced between each other and gear playing a factor but not the biggest factor.
Balance becomes more or less difficult based on how many things you're trying to balance for in the same game as well. It's plausible, imo, to balance for PvE and group PvP. Adding 1v1 to the mix and it gets more complicated.
In Aion, I just learned to accept that 1v1 combat was not balanced and would not be balanced. As a Gladiator, I was simply meat to be beat by all the other classes. But in group combat, when my team was playing smart, I was a cog in a glorious machine and my skill mattered in the process of dividing and conquering the enemy.
Not that a game should necessarily model itself after Aion, but I just don't think whether or not a Smuggler can win against a Sith Warrior in a 1 on 1 duel should have much affect on future nerfs and upgrades.
That is the reason I don't want to play MMOs anymore actually, very little skill involved, mostly just gear. I quit PvP before the Arena but WoW was kind of a joke really, almost entirely item dependent. Maybe TOR will be a little different, who knows until it comes out though.
We won't really know until we start playing. But it does sound like Bioware is aware of that from WoW and wants TOR to be different.
From interviews I've read they seem to want PvP to be partially about gear, partially your skill as a player, and partially about you and your team working together.
You can see this in some of the recent features they've announced.
Resolve makes you immune to CC. So that immediately makes CC more strategic (you could actually lose a fight because you went too CC heavy at the start and ended up fighting a bunch of immune players - can't say that about WoW).
Guard lets tanks be viable in PvP as meat shields, with positioning being a big part of it. And the taunt will let you cut a teams DPS down.
Plus they've promised combat in general is going to be a bit less about rotations like in WoW, with a lot more situational skills that could make or break a fight.
I am all for getting rid of the rotation, the rotation was idiotic. Rogues were the worst actually, and another reason why the stats can fail/why I hate crit/miss. Just based on your gear and some numbers that should have nothing to do with the fight you can lose because you missed, or you can win because you got a lucky streak of 4 crits in a row. Its idiotic and random and has no place in PvP.
How do you design a class that doesn't have a rotation or priority system? (which are basically the same thing)
Saying you are going to replace rotations with "more situational skills that could make or break a fight" doesn't even make any sense.
A rotation and a priority system aren't the same thing. A rotation is "I press this, then that, then that, then repeat." Its a set, brainless rotation of skills that never changes.
Priorites are a step up in complexity. You have skills you prefer, but depending on what is going on you need to change things up. Often they'd be a mix of offensive and defensive skills. Personally I used to love old school shaman because my totem set and the skills I used were completely different depending on who I was fighting.
Situational skills are like what I explained earlier with CC. Take Warlocks or Priests in WoW right now. Somebody gets in their face, they blow their fears. No though, no strategy. Its a reaction. Take that to TOR and if you're in a 4v4 and your team blows all of their CC at the beginning, toward the end of the fight you're going to find yourself at a disadvantage.
Same for guarding and taunting with the tank type classes. are you lazy and just keep a guard on one person? Or do you move it around trying to put it on somebody who's getting focuses? Can you pick out somebody beating on a friend and use your taunt to mitigate some of the damage?
A priority system is just a rotation. It's just usually expressed differently to make it easier to understand. But the varying cooldowns and such on abilities in a priority system make it a rotation, though usually on a longer time frame.
And neither effects the presense of situational abilities. Unless your class design is really barebones, it doesn't matter how rigid or short your rotation or priority system is, situational abilities will always fall outside it and be used when appropriate. That's the definition of a situational ability.
The only difference in TOR appears to be the Resolve system, which is a good idea. But I'm assuming for now it recharges fairly quickly and is more meant to prevent complete lockdown for long periods.
Re: MMOs & skill, I have a hard time buying that argument wholesale when there are situations you can come up against where skill simply does not matter. In early WoW, if my Warrior came up against a halfway descent Mage, I was toast. Didn't matter how "skillful" I was; the best Warrior player in existence wouldn't be able to break the myriad of CC long enough to do enough damage.
It's certainly a factor, but it's never going to be about just skill (or even mostly skill) as long as there's an uneven playing field.
There's the important part. You are still talking about a certain level of skill.
You're right, it's partly hyperbole. But the point remains salient.
When the level of skill is less important than the quality of gear (or classes of the participants), skill is not the main determinant of the result.
if (low skill Mage > high skill Warrior), the skill part of the equation is irrelevant.
If you don't want time spent and items gained/used to matter in PvP, I don't think RPGs are the right PvP environments for you.
What? Time spent is a factor in nearly everything, you don't learn geography by not practicing it. Items affecting it are a different story.
You are missing his point.
It's an RPG. In an RPG, that time you spent learning geography in real life is expressed instead as a set amount of skill points (or something similar) in your Geography Skill.
Items are the same. They are a way to express how your character has improved in game, through time and effort.
In any RPG, time spent is going to effect your performance based on some sort of stat system because that's the whole point of RPG systems.
Yeah, that'll be me siphoning the life outta chumps to fuel my own dark desires. Oh yes it will.
Right before I fry the crap out of them with a lightning storm.
That last bit of the trailer made me think less of Star Wars and more of Highlander.
Now is the time of the Gathering, when the stroke of a sword and the fall of the head will release the power of the Quickening. In the end, there can be only one.
HEEEEERE WE ARE....
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edited May 2011
Doesn't the inquisitor double as the stealthy-Sith character too? Or are they working that into the other Sith class? Because with the invisibility nonsense, it works here.
Doesn't the inquisitor double as the stealthy-Sith character too? Or are they working that into the other Sith class? Because with the invisibility nonsense, it works here.
Yeah, the Inquisitor has a stealth focus for it's melee DPS I think.
Doesn't the inquisitor double as the stealthy-Sith character too? Or are they working that into the other Sith class? Because with the invisibility nonsense, it works here.
Yeah, the Inquisitor has a stealth focus for it's melee DPS I think.
Both Sith classes might actually.
Just the Inquisitor/Consular
The Assassin/Shadow Advanced classes get the staff saber, the melee DPS and invisibility stuff and a tanking tree.
Re: MMOs & skill, I have a hard time buying that argument wholesale when there are situations you can come up against where skill simply does not matter. In early WoW, if my Warrior came up against a halfway descent Mage, I was toast. Didn't matter how "skillful" I was; the best Warrior player in existence wouldn't be able to break the myriad of CC long enough to do enough damage.
It's certainly a factor, but it's never going to be about just skill (or even mostly skill) as long as there's an uneven playing field.
There's the important part. You are still talking about a certain level of skill.
You're right, it's partly hyperbole. But the point remains salient.
When the level of skill is less important than the quality of gear (or classes of the participants), skill is not the main determinant of the result.
if (low skill Mage > high skill Warrior), the skill part of the equation is irrelevant.
That's just a class balance problem though.
I don't see TOR eliminating those.
...that's not "just a class balance problem", that tends to be the design philosophy behind PvP in MMOs. Class A beats Class B, etc, etc. Which removes skill from the equation, which was the point of the discussion.
Not really. No one designs around hard counters that I've ever seen.
They do usually let some imbalance go because they can't/don't want to balance for 1v1 with every class. They go for a soft counter system and balance around group PvP cause otherwise classes get awfully samey.
Soft Counters mean skill (and gear) is still a large part of the equation. It's just that all things being equal, they are going to beat you.
Doesn't the inquisitor double as the stealthy-Sith character too? Or are they working that into the other Sith class? Because with the invisibility nonsense, it works here.
Yeah, the Inquisitor has a stealth focus for it's melee DPS I think.
Both Sith classes might actually.
Just the Inquisitor/Consular
The Assassin/Shadow Advanced classes get the staff saber, the melee DPS and invisibility stuff and a tanking tree.
So Knight/Warriors get Tank/DPS with single saber as one advanaced class and two sabers but no stealth as another?
Doesn't the inquisitor double as the stealthy-Sith character too? Or are they working that into the other Sith class? Because with the invisibility nonsense, it works here.
Yeah, the Inquisitor has a stealth focus for it's melee DPS I think.
Both Sith classes might actually.
Just the Inquisitor/Consular
The Assassin/Shadow Advanced classes get the staff saber, the melee DPS and invisibility stuff and a tanking tree.
So Knight/Warriors get Tank/DPS with single saber as one advanaced class and two sabers but no stealth as another?
They get tank/dps with both. One is more tanky one is more dpsy.
Which, humorously enough, came shortly after this:
Our opinion is until we're ready to commit to a narrower window or a specific date, we're not going to do that.
Or until the EA CEO and CFO basically blows up your silly game of not narrowing the window by narrowing it themselves, when you have no intention of releasing it in the next couple months.
Which, humorously enough, came shortly after this:
Our opinion is until we're ready to commit to a narrower window or a specific date, we're not going to do that.
Or until the EA CEO and CFO basically blows up your silly game of not narrowing the window by narrowing it themselves, when you have no intention of releasing it in the next couple months.
...that's not "just a class balance problem", that tends to be the design philosophy behind PvP in MMOs. Class A beats Class B, etc, etc. Which removes skill from the equation, which was the point of the discussion.
Not really. No one designs around hard counters that I've ever seen.
They do usually let some imbalance go because they can't/don't want to balance for 1v1 with every class. They go for a soft counter system and balance around group PvP cause otherwise classes get awfully samey.
Soft Counters mean skill (and gear) is still a large part of the equation. It's just that all things being equal, they are going to beat you.
No one designs around "hard counters"? Please see (to my knowledge) all PvP-based RPG MMOs since DAoC. If you could cite any concrete examples of group-based PvP, I'd be really interested.
Regardless: how is skill a meaningful part of the equation in the "soft counter" example? Where is the player's skill the determinant factor, on both sides of the encounter?
If Class A beats Class B, and Class B is present, that factors in to the engagement regardless of the size of the encounter.
I don't think you are at all understanding the distinction between a hard and soft counter. Or anything else I'm saying really. Shit, your last paragraph makes me think you've never PvPed in an MMO, since it's so thick with misunderstanding.
A soft counter means that class has an advantage over you, but not an incermountable one given a gear or skill differential. A hard counter would be if you were basically fucked no matter what.
No major MMO with PvP I'm aware of (let alone played) designs around hard counters. Generally they let soft counters go simply because it's impossible to have every class perfectly theoretically balanced with every other one in a 1v1 situation. Not just realistically, but even designing in that direction leads to massive amounts of genericness.
They focus on group PvP because that makes it possible to make most groups balanced without having to give every class the same stuff. One classes deficiencies can be covered by another memeber of the groups strengths and vice versa.
Now, if you wanna say "Well, at one point in Game X, Class A had no chance against Class B no matter what", that would again be a balance issue. It's a balance problem, not a design descision. They aren't trying to design hard counters, they are simply not acheiving their balance goal. That's really really fundamentally different.
But anyway, back to class balance, the point is in a soft counter system, skill plays a large role because that's what can balance out any inherent weaknesses your class has vs another class. If you have enough more skill then them, you can win (assuming all other factors being equal).
Skill comes into play even more in group situations where the teams are balanced (even if individual classes are not) and it's your personal skill and your team mates skills and your skill in working together that will often tip the balance.
And finally, to touch on your last paragraph:
If Class A beats Class B, and Class B is present, that factors in to the engagement regardless of the size of the encounter.
This is completely off base and again makes me wonder if you've ever done group PvP. The point is that if Class A has an advantage over Class B solo, in a group situation the might not because Class B's buddy, Class C, can negate that advantage.
To use an example, if Class A is a ranged class that has alot of ways to root it's opponents and Class B is a low mobility ranged class, Class B is gonna lose to Class A solo. In a group though, Class C could brings dispells that negate Class Bs disadvantages.
The point is, B and C cooperate. That is the point of being in a group. The size of the encounter can balance things out by B and C each bringing skills to bear in support of one another to negate their various short comings.
Yeah, it's not like in a group you just throw an ally at the enemy he's strong against like it's Fire Emblem or something. Each group member has a role that keeps the destruction machine going. For some it's going to be absorbing or negating hits, for others it's going to be the actual act of destruction, or making the enemy stay still.
The whole PvP thing falls apart in WoW though, when classes are capable of doing so much utter destructive burst dps that they can completely eliminate an entire player from the field of battle in literally one second of play.
Ever go up against a ret paladin during their prime in WoLK, when they could literally burst down an enemy plate wearer with a single round of cooldowns? Blow everything and one guy is dead.
There's no way to balance team combat when you can eliminate a player from the field as soon as the battle begins.
Of course, WoW is also the worst example of MMO pvp.
The whole PvP thing falls apart in WoW though, when classes are capable of doing so much utter destructive burst dps that they can completely eliminate an entire player from the field of battle in literally one second of play.
Ever go up against a ret paladin during their prime in WoLK, when they could literally burst down an enemy plate wearer with a single round of cooldowns? Blow everything and one guy is dead.
There's no way to balance team combat when you can eliminate a player from the field as soon as the battle begins.
Of course, WoW is also the worst example of MMO pvp.
And everything said so far about TOR PvP emphasizes the pace of combat being much more measured than that.
They are designing such that one-hit KOs and massive burst damage kills do not occur. I can't speak to their success, the game isn't out yet, but those have been the stated design goals.
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Seriously though whats wrong with zabraks?
It's like, there was one Zabrak in one of the horrible prequel movies, and that one Zabrak happened to be kind of a bad ass, and now every game has to feature a Zabrak who is kind of a bad ass because how can you have horns sticking out of your head and tattoos all over your face unless you're some kind of bad ass?
Like, oh shit, kids, there's a Zabrak walking this way. Quick, cross the street!
Yes, well, it's much easier for people in this thread to roll their eyes and say "fuckin' Zabraks" than it is for us to go through the same gesture and go "fuckin' Star Wars." Though in fairness, it is sort of the fault of the intellectual property and those to whom it's licensed out for its perpetuation that we never see Zabrak bus boys at an interstellar T.G.I. Fridays and not the fault of the Zabrak per se.
If there was no skill involved in MMOS, people wouldn't suck so much at them. There's tons of people with good gear who just can't fucking play. And the reason that distinction exists is because skill is quite important.
This is by design. Sure you can outgear content, but the idea of any MMO is to put current content at the level where it isn't possible to outgear it.
PvP obviously throws a wrench in the works somewhat and many games are still trying to figure out how to handle that. How to balance the RPG part (where you get gear or something else to improve your character) with a competitive environment where you want everyone on a roughly equal footing.
It's rather hard in WoW pvp to outgear the opposition enough that skill goes out the window. I don't even think it's possible these days.
How is that any different from any other game?
PvP in any game (not just MMOs) is always partiall about player skill and partially about team-work. And then ther may or may not be a "gear" component of some sort. But it's always the first 2 and then maybe the 3rd one.
How do you design a class that doesn't have a rotation or priority system? (which are basically the same thing)
Saying you are going to replace rotations with "more situational skills that could make or break a fight" doesn't even make any sense.
There's the important part. You are still talking about a certain level of skill.
A rotation and a priority system aren't the same thing. A rotation is "I press this, then that, then that, then repeat." Its a set, brainless rotation of skills that never changes.
Priorites are a step up in complexity. You have skills you prefer, but depending on what is going on you need to change things up. Often they'd be a mix of offensive and defensive skills. Personally I used to love old school shaman because my totem set and the skills I used were completely different depending on who I was fighting.
Situational skills are like what I explained earlier with CC. Take Warlocks or Priests in WoW right now. Somebody gets in their face, they blow their fears. No though, no strategy. Its a reaction. Take that to TOR and if you're in a 4v4 and your team blows all of their CC at the beginning, toward the end of the fight you're going to find yourself at a disadvantage.
Same for guarding and taunting with the tank type classes. are you lazy and just keep a guard on one person? Or do you move it around trying to put it on somebody who's getting focuses? Can you pick out somebody beating on a friend and use your taunt to mitigate some of the damage?
Empire - Veela Server
I think folks need to realize there are always going to be multiple factors in determining the outcome of a fight - all with big shade of grey.
The question for me is how much emphasis is placed on each of those pieces?
If you're looking at a 1v1 fight, determinants are ...
1 - Skill
2 - Classes
3 - Gear
4 - Consumables
5 - Plain dumb luck
The trick for any game with PvP is to find the right balancing act between each of those when creating their combat system.
For me, WoW has too much of their chips pushed toward gear and your class. There are players out there who are horrible, but run around kicking the snot out of folks because they play a FOTM class and are well geared.
I'm hoping TOR pushes more of the outcome toward skill, with classes being a bit more balanced between each other and gear playing a factor but not the biggest factor.
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Yeah, that'll be me siphoning the life outta chumps to fuel my own dark desires. Oh yes it will.
Right before I fry the crap out of them with a lightning storm.
In Aion, I just learned to accept that 1v1 combat was not balanced and would not be balanced. As a Gladiator, I was simply meat to be beat by all the other classes. But in group combat, when my team was playing smart, I was a cog in a glorious machine and my skill mattered in the process of dividing and conquering the enemy.
Not that a game should necessarily model itself after Aion, but I just don't think whether or not a Smuggler can win against a Sith Warrior in a 1 on 1 duel should have much affect on future nerfs and upgrades.
A priority system is just a rotation. It's just usually expressed differently to make it easier to understand. But the varying cooldowns and such on abilities in a priority system make it a rotation, though usually on a longer time frame.
And neither effects the presense of situational abilities. Unless your class design is really barebones, it doesn't matter how rigid or short your rotation or priority system is, situational abilities will always fall outside it and be used when appropriate. That's the definition of a situational ability.
The only difference in TOR appears to be the Resolve system, which is a good idea. But I'm assuming for now it recharges fairly quickly and is more meant to prevent complete lockdown for long periods.
That's just a class balance problem though.
I don't see TOR eliminating those.
You are missing his point.
It's an RPG. In an RPG, that time you spent learning geography in real life is expressed instead as a set amount of skill points (or something similar) in your Geography Skill.
Items are the same. They are a way to express how your character has improved in game, through time and effort.
In any RPG, time spent is going to effect your performance based on some sort of stat system because that's the whole point of RPG systems.
That last bit of the trailer made me think less of Star Wars and more of Highlander.
Now is the time of the Gathering, when the stroke of a sword and the fall of the head will release the power of the Quickening. In the end, there can be only one.
HEEEEERE WE ARE....
Yeah, the Inquisitor has a stealth focus for it's melee DPS I think.
Both Sith classes might actually.
Just the Inquisitor/Consular
The Assassin/Shadow Advanced classes get the staff saber, the melee DPS and invisibility stuff and a tanking tree.
Not really. No one designs around hard counters that I've ever seen.
They do usually let some imbalance go because they can't/don't want to balance for 1v1 with every class. They go for a soft counter system and balance around group PvP cause otherwise classes get awfully samey.
Soft Counters mean skill (and gear) is still a large part of the equation. It's just that all things being equal, they are going to beat you.
So Knight/Warriors get Tank/DPS with single saber as one advanaced class and two sabers but no stealth as another?
They get tank/dps with both. One is more tanky one is more dpsy.
From Bioware surreptitiously changing the release window after the investor meeting in Stephen Reid's post from February about the release date? Yes.
Here is the ammended post.
Which, humorously enough, came shortly after this:
Or until the EA CEO and CFO basically blows up your silly game of not narrowing the window by narrowing it themselves, when you have no intention of releasing it in the next couple months.
SteamID: devCharles
twitter: https://twitter.com/charlesewise
Sorry, I meant EA, not Sony.
I don't think you are at all understanding the distinction between a hard and soft counter. Or anything else I'm saying really. Shit, your last paragraph makes me think you've never PvPed in an MMO, since it's so thick with misunderstanding.
A soft counter means that class has an advantage over you, but not an incermountable one given a gear or skill differential. A hard counter would be if you were basically fucked no matter what.
No major MMO with PvP I'm aware of (let alone played) designs around hard counters. Generally they let soft counters go simply because it's impossible to have every class perfectly theoretically balanced with every other one in a 1v1 situation. Not just realistically, but even designing in that direction leads to massive amounts of genericness.
They focus on group PvP because that makes it possible to make most groups balanced without having to give every class the same stuff. One classes deficiencies can be covered by another memeber of the groups strengths and vice versa.
Now, if you wanna say "Well, at one point in Game X, Class A had no chance against Class B no matter what", that would again be a balance issue. It's a balance problem, not a design descision. They aren't trying to design hard counters, they are simply not acheiving their balance goal. That's really really fundamentally different.
But anyway, back to class balance, the point is in a soft counter system, skill plays a large role because that's what can balance out any inherent weaknesses your class has vs another class. If you have enough more skill then them, you can win (assuming all other factors being equal).
Skill comes into play even more in group situations where the teams are balanced (even if individual classes are not) and it's your personal skill and your team mates skills and your skill in working together that will often tip the balance.
And finally, to touch on your last paragraph:
This is completely off base and again makes me wonder if you've ever done group PvP. The point is that if Class A has an advantage over Class B solo, in a group situation the might not because Class B's buddy, Class C, can negate that advantage.
To use an example, if Class A is a ranged class that has alot of ways to root it's opponents and Class B is a low mobility ranged class, Class B is gonna lose to Class A solo. In a group though, Class C could brings dispells that negate Class Bs disadvantages.
The point is, B and C cooperate. That is the point of being in a group. The size of the encounter can balance things out by B and C each bringing skills to bear in support of one another to negate their various short comings.
Which is way awesome.
They really need to start providing links to the HD Youtube versions of their videos.
Ever go up against a ret paladin during their prime in WoLK, when they could literally burst down an enemy plate wearer with a single round of cooldowns? Blow everything and one guy is dead.
There's no way to balance team combat when you can eliminate a player from the field as soon as the battle begins.
Of course, WoW is also the worst example of MMO pvp.
And everything said so far about TOR PvP emphasizes the pace of combat being much more measured than that.
They are designing such that one-hit KOs and massive burst damage kills do not occur. I can't speak to their success, the game isn't out yet, but those have been the stated design goals.
We'll see how it goes with TOR.