Then... what exactly is your point about the idol? Because it's clearly not the sole reason for Meredith's actions, just one instigator of them. Do you just think it's dumb because it's magic? It was established in the first game that lyrium is basically a power drug to templars, so she has a legitimate reason to want it.
Processed lyrium is like heroin, right, but it's common knowledge that touching raw lyrium fucks your brain up unless you're a dwarf or have other immunity, so why would Meredith go after it? Why would she ever touch it if she isn't completely retarded? Why would she, as the senior commander, personally oversee any investigation into the incredibly dangerous mindfucking evil artifact?
Re: Orsino again, those were baby mages. If every mage in there had their boss monster achievements maybe, but otherwise Orsino should realize that just because his cloistered tower lackeys can't handle it doesn't mean the super powerful, publicly-accepted apostate can't.
It made for a comically large disconnect between game and story. It was like, I have full fucking HP Orsino, what is your goddamn problem!?
And aside from that note earlier, was there any indication at all that Orsino was into blood magic?
SoundsPlush on
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ElixirSaving Your AssAlchemists and Belts EverywhereRegistered Userregular
Is this what I think it means? Because if it does, it is the best thing ever.
Ha, probably.
The fact that Hawke is immune to the idol simply because he is the PC. Same goes to why the Warden and Hawke can be Blood Mages and not be total fucktards.
Yes that's it.
Many many, MANY stories suffer from this.
I've just never seen it called as such.
Good show kind sir.
Thanks, I can't take full credit for it. I'm like 99% sure I read it on these boards before when I lurked as opposed to posting. It does ruin a lot of RPG's. At least in this case Hawke can be influenced bu some evil powers:
(see the quest where he almost ganks himself from the hooker-blood mage)
but the same shtick should have happened with the idol too.
Then... what exactly is your point about the idol? Because it's clearly not the sole reason for Meredith's actions, just one instigator of them. Do you just think it's dumb because it's magic? It was established in the first game that lyrium is basically a power drug to templars, so she has a legitimate reason to want it.
Processed lyrium is like heroin, right, but it's common knowledge that touching raw lyrium fucks your brain up unless you're a dwarf or have other immunity, so why would Meredith go after it? Why would she ever touch it if she isn't completely retarded? Why would she, as the senior commander, personally oversee any investigation into the incredibly dangerous mindfucking evil artifact?
Re: Orsino again, those were baby mages. If every mage in there had their boss monster achievements maybe, but otherwise Orsino should realize that just because his cloistered tower lackeys can't handle it doesn't mean the super powerful, publicly-accepted apostate can't.
It made for a comically large disconnect between game and story. It was like, I have full fucking HP Orsino, what is your goddamn problem!?
And aside from that note earlier, was there any indication at all that Orsino was into blood magic?
You do remember Orsino was trying to help those very baby mages who died right? Cared about them, felt responsible for them? They all died and he felt like even if he got out, none of the innocent mages would. And... he's pretty much right.
That would be another reason he freaks out and goes Harvester, and a fairly believeable one honestly.
Meredith was already repressing the mages before she picked up the crazy sword; she is using a perfectly normal sword at the end of Act 2. It's just that she went completely overboard after this.
Then... what exactly is your point about the idol? Because it's clearly not the sole reason for Meredith's actions, just one instigator of them. Do you just think it's dumb because it's magic? It was established in the first game that lyrium is basically a power drug to templars, so she has a legitimate reason to want it.
Why does Riordan jump off a tower to cripple the Archdemon's wings when clearly there is an unkillable Arcane Warrior at his side?
Again, it's clearly the sole reason for Meredith's actions. As I've said, there's no debate on that point. You keep bringing the opposite as an evident truth, while the game proves all by itself it is a fallacy. We will not discuss that, because that is self-evident by the construct of the story.
Meredith may be predisposed against mages or have good or bad reasons for ways she wants to handle them or whatever, but the idol is what makes her insane, and thus any insane actions she may do (which she does with frequency throughout the game) can all be blamed on that.
Since there is no layering, there is no distinction, the weakest link in the chain gets 100% of the blame, and that is the idol. There are several points where discussion and reason can be attempted, and they fail 100% of the time, and of all of the times they fail, they fail why? Not because the arguments can't be resolved, certainly (if you hold the belief that mass slaughter is the only answer to any kind of a problem, then we're just not going to discuss this for a myriad of other reasons).
It fails because she's fucking crazy and the "idol is making her do it", which is proven in the end when she goes apeshit because things aren't going her way, thus the last desperate attempt is to go full on out overt.
Again, I know you're trying to make the distinction that "It was all her, but then just at the end, that's when the idol took over". The game explicitly points out with definitive certainty that this line of reasoning is not the case, due to the information given during Varric's sidequest where him and his brother come into contact with the idol. They go full crazy within one second of touching it. Thus Meredith is affected from the moment she touches it.
I mean, this is about the third time I've tried to explain this, so I'm going to stop here and not do it anymore. If you disagree, or can't see my point, then that's that.
Then... what exactly is your point about the idol? Because it's clearly not the sole reason for Meredith's actions, just one instigator of them. Do you just think it's dumb because it's magic? It was established in the first game that lyrium is basically a power drug to templars, so she has a legitimate reason to want it.
Processed lyrium is like heroin, right, but it's common knowledge that touching raw lyrium fucks your brain up unless you're a dwarf or have other immunity, so why would Meredith go after it? Why would she ever touch it if she isn't completely retarded? Why would she, as the senior commander, personally oversee any investigation into the incredibly dangerous mindfucking evil artifact?
Re: Orsino again, those were baby mages. If every mage in there had their boss monster achievements maybe, but otherwise Orsino should realize that just because his cloistered tower lackeys can't handle it doesn't mean the super powerful, publicly-accepted apostate can't.
It made for a comically large disconnect between game and story. It was like, I have full fucking HP Orsino, what is your goddamn problem!?
And aside from that note earlier, was there any indication at all that Orsino was into blood magic?
It wasn't raw, it was fashioned into an idol and then fashioned again into a sword. She wanted the idol because she knew it was powerful and needed that power to fight the rising mage rebellion. She was a problem well before the idol, and that she was willing to take that risk shows she was already somewhat unstable.
Then... what exactly is your point about the idol? Because it's clearly not the sole reason for Meredith's actions, just one instigator of them. Do you just think it's dumb because it's magic? It was established in the first game that lyrium is basically a power drug to templars, so she has a legitimate reason to want it.
Processed lyrium is like heroin, right, but it's common knowledge that touching raw lyrium fucks your brain up unless you're a dwarf or have other immunity, so why would Meredith go after it? Why would she ever touch it if she isn't completely retarded? Why would she, as the senior commander, personally oversee any investigation into the incredibly dangerous mindfucking evil artifact?
Re: Orsino again, those were baby mages. If every mage in there had their boss monster achievements maybe, but otherwise Orsino should realize that just because his cloistered tower lackeys can't handle it doesn't mean the super powerful, publicly-accepted apostate can't.
It made for a comically large disconnect between game and story. It was like, I have full fucking HP Orsino, what is your goddamn problem!?
And aside from that note earlier, was there any indication at all that Orsino was into blood magic?
It wasn't raw, it was fashioned into an idol and then fashioned again into a sword. She wanted the idol because she knew it was powerful and needed that power to fight the rising mage rebellion. She was a problem well before the idol, and that she was willing to take that risk shows she was already somewhat unstable.
Case and point, recall the arrival to Kirkwall sequence. When Hawke is like "WTF do I care if some Templar biddy wants to keep people out" and everyone is like "Dude, don't fuck with Meridith. Shes fucking nuts."
Meredith was already repressing the mages before she picked up the crazy sword; she is using a perfectly normal sword at the end of Act 2. It's just that she went completely overboard after this.
We don't know when she comes into possession of the artifact and I doubt she instantly puts it in her sword. The game makes it seem like the reason she is so aggressive and hateful is because she is corrupted. The game makes it seem that the reason events spiral out of control is because the templars start oppressing the mages with downright evil methods, which of course prompts the mages to respond which leads to the culmination of the game
With the idol there, we now never know if the conflict would have reached this level of clusterfuckery and that takes away a lot from the story which was a lot more interesting when it was just humans doing what humans do.
I mean, at the end of the game Meredith is sporting red glowing eyes, jumps around like a freak and animates statues to do her bidding. She was clearly deeply under the influence at that point
It wasn't raw, it was fashioned into an idol and then fashioned again into a sword. She wanted the idol because she knew it was powerful and needed that power to fight the rising mage rebellion. She was a problem well before the idol, and that she was willing to take that risk shows she was already somewhat unstable.
Except it's not processed, it's merely shaped. It's literally called "pure lyrium." Processed turns it blue, whereas the rawer lyrium dust in DAO was red, and the lyrium resources in DA2 are red, like the idol.
Something Meredith should be aware of and not stupidly go playing around with it.
Then... what exactly is your point about the idol? Because it's clearly not the sole reason for Meredith's actions, just one instigator of them. Do you just think it's dumb because it's magic? It was established in the first game that lyrium is basically a power drug to templars, so she has a legitimate reason to want it.
Processed lyrium is like heroin, right, but it's common knowledge that touching raw lyrium fucks your brain up unless you're a dwarf or have other immunity, so why would Meredith go after it? Why would she ever touch it if she isn't completely retarded? Why would she, as the senior commander, personally oversee any investigation into the incredibly dangerous mindfucking evil artifact?
Re: Orsino again, those were baby mages. If every mage in there had their boss monster achievements maybe, but otherwise Orsino should realize that just because his cloistered tower lackeys can't handle it doesn't mean the super powerful, publicly-accepted apostate can't.
It made for a comically large disconnect between game and story. It was like, I have full fucking HP Orsino, what is your goddamn problem!?
And aside from that note earlier, was there any indication at all that Orsino was into blood magic?
It wasn't raw, it was fashioned into an idol and then fashioned again into a sword. She wanted the idol because she knew it was powerful and needed that power to fight the rising mage rebellion. She was a problem well before the idol, and that she was willing to take that risk shows she was already somewhat unstable.
Except we never get to know that it is powerful in any other way than mindfuckery. We never get to know if Meredith thought it was powerful or just some curiosa she wanted to keep under lock and key. Did it sway her instantly or was it a slow burn? Did she want to use it against the mages or was the idol using her? We have no idea what actually happened with the Idol for 95% of the game because it is so far removed from actual gameplay and story development except for the very end.
Then... what exactly is your point about the idol? Because it's clearly not the sole reason for Meredith's actions, just one instigator of them. Do you just think it's dumb because it's magic? It was established in the first game that lyrium is basically a power drug to templars, so she has a legitimate reason to want it.
Why does Riordan jump off a tower to cripple the Archdemon's wings when clearly there is an unkillable Arcane Warrior at his side?
Again, it's clearly the sole reason for Meredith's actions. As I've said, there's no debate on that point. You keep bringing the opposite as an evident truth, while the game proves all by itself it is a fallacy. We will not discuss that, because that is self-evident by the construct of the story.
Meredith may be predisposed against mages or have good or bad reasons for ways she wants to handle them or whatever, but the idol is what makes her insane, and thus any insane actions she may do (which she does with frequency throughout the game) can all be blamed on that.
Since there is no layering, there is no distinction, the weakest link in the chain gets 100% of the blame, and that is the idol. There are several points where discussion and reason can be attempted, and they fail 100% of the time, and of all of the times they fail, they fail why? Not because the arguments can't be resolved, certainly (if you hold the belief that mass slaughter is the only answer to any kind of a problem, then we're just not going to discuss this for a myriad of other reasons).
It fails because she's fucking crazy and the "idol is making her do it", which is proven in the end when she goes apeshit because things aren't going her way, thus the last desperate attempt is to go full on out overt.
Again, I know you're trying to make the distinction that "It was all her, but then just at the end, that's when the idol took over". The game explicitly points out with definitive certainty that this line of reasoning is not the case, due to the information given during Varric's sidequest where him and his brother come into contact with the idol. They go full crazy within one second of touching it. Thus Meredith is affected from the moment she touches it.
I mean, this is about the third time I've tried to explain this, so I'm going to stop here and not do it anymore. If you disagree, or can't see my point, then that's that.
I've really tried my best.
She doesn't try to invoke annulment the second she touches the idol. She doesn't go beyond "regular" paranoid Templar crazy for Act 2 and most of Act 3, and often makes reasonable points against Orsino. The only time she goes into KILL ALL MAGES mode is after Anders blows up the Chantry. An overreaction fueled by the idol, but I don't know where you get the idea that the idol is responsible for literally every thing Meredith does. It was always influencing her to some degree in the last 2 acts, but we know that because people were complaining at her in Act 1, and that non-Idol factors like blood mage activity, Thrask's betrayal, the qunari uprising and death of the Viscount, her natural paranoia, and Anders also influence her behavior, that this war probably would have sparked at one point or another without the idol.
If you try to blame 100% of Meredith's actions 100% on the idol, then you're saying that even if she was a completely reasonable person from the beginning and Kirkwall had great relations between templars and mages, blood mages were not an issue, and Anders was totally cool, Meredith would still go KILL ALL MAGES simply by being in contact with the idol. She probably wouldn't even want to buy the idol in the first place if there wasn't a major templar/mage problem brewing.
But aren't backround NPCs complaining about how crazy and dictatorial merideith is even in act 1?
Yup! A proven fact. Just stand about and listen. Hell it comes up when you talk to the first two guards right when you get off the boat.
Really?
I got the impression she was "Tough but fair" when they first introduce her. Yes, people are unhappy her position is the one holding all power, but other than that, from all the accounts others gave of her, it seemed she knew how to keep shit together in a difficult situation (Arishok, mages and a massive influx of immigrants from Ferelden where the war is going on being "problems").
It's when she gets unreasonable and apeshit that's the problem, and that's exclusively post idol.
Then... what exactly is your point about the idol? Because it's clearly not the sole reason for Meredith's actions, just one instigator of them. Do you just think it's dumb because it's magic? It was established in the first game that lyrium is basically a power drug to templars, so she has a legitimate reason to want it.
Why does Riordan jump off a tower to cripple the Archdemon's wings when clearly there is an unkillable Arcane Warrior at his side?
Again, it's clearly the sole reason for Meredith's actions. As I've said, there's no debate on that point. You keep bringing the opposite as an evident truth, while the game proves all by itself it is a fallacy. We will not discuss that, because that is self-evident by the construct of the story.
Meredith may be predisposed against mages or have good or bad reasons for ways she wants to handle them or whatever, but the idol is what makes her insane, and thus any insane actions she may do (which she does with frequency throughout the game) can all be blamed on that.
Since there is no layering, there is no distinction, the weakest link in the chain gets 100% of the blame, and that is the idol. There are several points where discussion and reason can be attempted, and they fail 100% of the time, and of all of the times they fail, they fail why? Not because the arguments can't be resolved, certainly (if you hold the belief that mass slaughter is the only answer to any kind of a problem, then we're just not going to discuss this for a myriad of other reasons).
It fails because she's fucking crazy and the "idol is making her do it", which is proven in the end when she goes apeshit because things aren't going her way, thus the last desperate attempt is to go full on out overt.
Again, I know you're trying to make the distinction that "It was all her, but then just at the end, that's when the idol took over". The game explicitly points out with definitive certainty that this line of reasoning is not the case, due to the information given during Varric's sidequest where him and his brother come into contact with the idol. They go full crazy within one second of touching it. Thus Meredith is affected from the moment she touches it.
I mean, this is about the third time I've tried to explain this, so I'm going to stop here and not do it anymore. If you disagree, or can't see my point, then that's that.
I've really tried my best.
She doesn't try to invoke annulment the second she touches the idol. She doesn't go beyond "regular" paranoid Templar crazy for Act 2 and most of Act 3, and often makes reasonable points against Orsino. The only time she goes into KILL ALL MAGES mode is after Anders blows up the Chantry. An overreaction fueled by the idol, but I don't know where you get the idea that the idol is responsible for literally every thing Meredith does. It was always influencing her to some degree in the last 2 acts, but we know that because people were complaining at her in Act 1, and that non-Idol factors like blood mage activity, Thrask's betrayal, the qunari uprising and death of the Viscount, her natural paranoia, and Anders also influence her behavior, that this war probably would have sparked at one point or another without the idol.
If you try to blame 100% of Meredith's actions 100% on the idol, then you're saying that even if she was a completely reasonable person from the beginning and Kirkwall had great relations between templars and mages, blood mages were not an issue, and Anders was totally cool, Meredith would still go KILL ALL MAGES simply by being in contact with the idol. She probably wouldn't even want to buy the idol in the first place if there wasn't a major templar/mage problem brewing.
Then... what exactly is your point about the idol? Because it's clearly not the sole reason for Meredith's actions, just one instigator of them. Do you just think it's dumb because it's magic? It was established in the first game that lyrium is basically a power drug to templars, so she has a legitimate reason to want it.
Why does Riordan jump off a tower to cripple the Archdemon's wings when clearly there is an unkillable Arcane Warrior at his side?
Again, it's clearly the sole reason for Meredith's actions. As I've said, there's no debate on that point. You keep bringing the opposite as an evident truth, while the game proves all by itself it is a fallacy. We will not discuss that, because that is self-evident by the construct of the story.
Meredith may be predisposed against mages or have good or bad reasons for ways she wants to handle them or whatever, but the idol is what makes her insane, and thus any insane actions she may do (which she does with frequency throughout the game) can all be blamed on that.
Since there is no layering, there is no distinction, the weakest link in the chain gets 100% of the blame, and that is the idol. There are several points where discussion and reason can be attempted, and they fail 100% of the time, and of all of the times they fail, they fail why? Not because the arguments can't be resolved, certainly (if you hold the belief that mass slaughter is the only answer to any kind of a problem, then we're just not going to discuss this for a myriad of other reasons).
It fails because she's fucking crazy and the "idol is making her do it", which is proven in the end when she goes apeshit because things aren't going her way, thus the last desperate attempt is to go full on out overt.
Again, I know you're trying to make the distinction that "It was all her, but then just at the end, that's when the idol took over". The game explicitly points out with definitive certainty that this line of reasoning is not the case, due to the information given during Varric's sidequest where him and his brother come into contact with the idol. They go full crazy within one second of touching it. Thus Meredith is affected from the moment she touches it.
I mean, this is about the third time I've tried to explain this, so I'm going to stop here and not do it anymore. If you disagree, or can't see my point, then that's that.
I've really tried my best.
She doesn't try to invoke annulment the second she touches the idol. She doesn't go beyond "regular" paranoid Templar crazy for Act 2 and most of Act 3, and often makes reasonable points against Orsino. The only time she goes into KILL ALL MAGES mode is after Anders blows up the Chantry. An overreaction fueled by the idol, but I don't know where you get the idea that the idol is responsible for literally every thing Meredith does. It was always influencing her to some degree in the last 2 acts, but we know that because people were complaining at her in Act 1, and that non-Idol factors like blood mage activity, Thrask's betrayal, the qunari uprising and death of the Viscount, her natural paranoia, and Anders also influence her behavior, that this war probably would have sparked at one point or another without the idol.
If you try to blame 100% of Meredith's actions 100% on the idol, then you're saying that even if she was a completely reasonable person from the beginning and Kirkwall had great relations between templars and mages, blood mages were not an issue, and Anders was totally cool, Meredith would still go KILL ALL MAGES simply by being in contact with the idol. She probably wouldn't even want to buy the idol in the first place if there wasn't a major templar/mage problem brewing.
Verricks bro literally goes insane and sacrifices his own brother the moment he comes near the artifact. That was the game saying the artifact was ridiculously dangerous
Meredith did not spend several years with the artifact without going insane. She was influenced the moment she bought it and then spends YEARS with it in her possession. By the time shit really goes down in the game she is so utterly corrupted she is basically not even human anymore
So yeah, that kind of undermines everything about her.
Once again "Person gets corrupted" in itself is not a horrible plot point, but the way they chose to present this in the game was horrible. I think some people are defending the plot itself while others are hating on the implementation and it's just two different things altogether
Honestly, I'm not even entirely convinced the idol's thing is making people crazy.
Bertrand didn't go full-blown insane until he got rid of the idol, and Meredith was pretty much just hardcore-templar crazy. It might be that the idol just intensifies the negative traits of the holder--Bertrand's greed, Meredith's power-hungry drive and strictness regarding mages and so forth.
Blackjack on
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ElixirSaving Your AssAlchemists and Belts EverywhereRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
The fact that Meridth is the de facto ruler of Kirkwall and uses the Viscount as a puppet shows her fascistic tendencies towards mages. The Templar Order is supposed to bow to the Chantry and stay separate from ruling states. In Kirkwall under Meridith, even in act one, it does neither.
When you talked to Meredith in Act 3, even Act 2, did you think she was corrupted beyond the point of not even being human? She was just a very ruthless templar, more unstable than an ordinary person but there is definitely a difference between her mental state there and at the very end of the game.
Plush
That's a good point about the lyrium, but I think it goes to show Meredith was more initially desperate than I thought.
It's never said that the idol turns you into some rambling wreck. As far as I understood it Verricks brother was ice cold and calculating while he had the idol and only when he didn't have access to it anymore did he completely lose it and turn into a gibbering mess where he could barely function anymore
So we'd not really know how deeply the idol impacted on Meredith at all
I really don't like the choices for staffs. Nothing in the entire game has screamed "I'm perfect for you!" I almost bought the Ice staff from the vendor in the wounded coast since I wanted to be an ice/fire force/blood mage, but it's dps doesn't compare with other staffs.
Now I'm in act three, it's no longer for sale, and I get the distinct feeling I may be using a random staff I find.
So at the end of act 1, the idol is somewhere. We know Bartrand got rid of it by the time we have him going all Dead Space crazy, but it may not actually be in Meredith's hands yet. In fact, in Act 2 when you meet Meredith she might have the idol, but she probably doesn't have the crazy sword yet (the fact that the entire city is burning wouldn't be a bad reason to bring out her big gun), as she goes around killing things with a plain old sword.
And prior to it all, everybody talks about Meredith being hardcore prejudiced against mages. It's a known thing.
Then there's the (hilariously named) Tranquil Solution quest in Act 2, where some Templar is outright asking Meredith to make all the mages Tranquil, and she declined it. If she has the idol at that point, she's still smart enough to know that trying to do that would probably cause Kirkwall to go up in a puff of smoke as all the mages rebel. She certainly wasn't crazy enough to give it the ok.
In fact, we don't even know how rich Bartrand got from the expedition. We know he didn't get poorer from it, and we know Hawke got a lot richer than Bartrand. It's reasonable to think that the idol went straight into Meredith's hands when he sold it off, since it was probably sold for a lot of money and the Templars probably have gobs of money, but we don't really know.
So it's really hard to establish a timeline for Meredith getting the idol and going nuts as a result of having the thing.
l_g on
Cole's Law: "Thinly sliced cabbage."
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ElixirSaving Your AssAlchemists and Belts EverywhereRegistered Userregular
I really don't like the choices for staffs. Nothing in the entire game has screamed "I'm perfect for you!" I almost bought the Ice staff from the vendor in the wounded coast since I wanted to be an ice/fire force/blood mage, but it's dps doesn't compare with other staffs.
Now I'm in act three, it's no longer for sale, and I get the distinct feeling I may be using a random staff I find.
Because enemy resistances are sort of hidden in the game (there is a chart online somewhere...), I suggest keeping one of each element aside from physical (they blow hardcore because basic enemy damage resistance effects them) and switch depending on the enemy. Ice/spirit are good all around, but some enemies are weak to fire, nature + lightning. At most it takes up 5 inventory slots. Considering I have quested for like 5 dungeons in a row without needing to unload loot, its not a big inventory hog.
So at the end of act 1, the idol is somewhere. We know Bartrand got rid of it by the time we have him going all Dead Space crazy, but it may not actually be in Meredith's hands yet. In fact, in Act 2 when you meet Meredith she might have the idol, but she probably doesn't have the crazy sword yet (the fact that the entire city is burning wouldn't be a bad reason to bring out her big gun), as she goes around killing things with a plain old sword.
And prior to it all, everybody talks about Meredith being hardcore prejudiced against mages. It's a known thing.
Then there's the (hilariously named) Tranquil Solution quest in Act 2, where some Templar is outright asking Meredith to make all the mages Tranquil, and she declined it. If she has the idol at that point, she's still smart enough to know that trying to do that would probably cause Kirkwall to go up in a puff of smoke as all the mages rebel. She certainly wasn't crazy enough to give it the ok.
In fact, we don't even know how rich Bartrand got from the expedition. We know he didn't get poorer from it, and we know Hawke got a lot richer than Bartrand. It's reasonable to think that the idol went straight into Meredith's hands when he sold it off, since it was probably sold for a lot of money and the Templars probably have gobs of money, but we don't really know.
So it's really hard to establish a timeline for Meredith getting the idol and going nuts as a result of having the thing.
Bartrand definitely sold it directly to Meredith, unless someone else whose hair "glows like the sun" bought it first and then sold it to her, which is unlikely.
I was always under the impression that he sold it in Act 2 when he returned to Kirkwall.
And after he sold it he went nuts and started experimenting on his servants or whatever he was doing.
However that is just my feeling... I guess he could have sold it if/when he got back to Kirkwall before you at the end of Act 1.
Also, are any of the companions in DA2 actually friends?
The closest I can see are Meryl and Isabela, unless you sleep with both of them.
I was always under the impression that he sold it in Act 2 when he returned to Kirkwall.
And after he sold it he went nuts and started experimenting on his servants or whatever he was doing.
However that is just my feeling... I guess he could have sold it if/when he got back to Kirkwall before you at the end of Act 1.
Also, are any of the companions in DA2 actually friends?
The closest I can see are Meryl and Isabela, unless you sleep with both of them.
Merrill, Isabella and Varric are like a weird little family by the end of the game, Isabella and Fenris get on pretty well, Sebastian and Fenris bond a lot. Aveline and Varric get on well and Aveline and Isabella (eventually) become friends. The only people who are out there are Anders and Fenris who are both pretty antisocial and hate each other/Merrill.
I was always under the impression that he sold it in Act 2 when he returned to Kirkwall.
And after he sold it he went nuts and started experimenting on his servants or whatever he was doing.
However that is just my feeling... I guess he could have sold it if/when he got back to Kirkwall before you at the end of Act 1.
Also, are any of the companions in DA2 actually friends?
The closest I can see are Meryl and Isabela, unless you sleep with both of them.
Merrill, Isabella and Varric are like a weird little family by the end of the game, Isabella and Fenris get on pretty well, Sebastian and Fenris bond a lot. Aveline and Varric get on well and Aveline and Isabella (eventually) become friends. The only people who are out there are Anders and Fenris who are both pretty antisocial and hate each other/Merrill.
I guess I never took Aveline out much as I was a sword/shield warrior; I *did* take Isabela to see Aveline during her thing with Donnic; some of the most hilarious dialogue in the game But I couldn't ever see them becoming friends!!!!
I was always under the impression that he sold it in Act 2 when he returned to Kirkwall.
And after he sold it he went nuts and started experimenting on his servants or whatever he was doing.
However that is just my feeling... I guess he could have sold it if/when he got back to Kirkwall before you at the end of Act 1.
Also, are any of the companions in DA2 actually friends?
The closest I can see are Meryl and Isabela, unless you sleep with both of them.
Merrill, Isabella and Varric are like a weird little family by the end of the game, Isabella and Fenris get on pretty well, Sebastian and Fenris bond a lot. Aveline and Varric get on well and Aveline and Isabella (eventually) become friends. The only people who are out there are Anders and Fenris who are both pretty antisocial and hate each other/Merrill.
I guess I never took Aveline out much as I was a sword/shield warrior; I *did* take Isabela to see Aveline during her thing with Donnic; some of the most hilarious dialogue in the game But I couldn't ever see them becoming friends!!!!
Man they have some of the best friendly dialogue with each other in act 3. You should try as many combinations of companions as possible if you want to get a full picture of their personalities, it really helps flesh out Fenris/Isabella/Aveline and Merrill mostly.
Anders of course has the worst dialogue once he uses up his stories about Ser-Pounce-a-Lot in Act 1. Everyone bitches at him for being a killjoy jackass, even Fenris.
Anders of course has the worst dialogue once he uses up his stories about Ser-Pounce-a-Lot in Act 1. Everyone bitches at him for being a killjoy jackass, even Fenris.
He's useful for making Isabela more than the one-note comedic relief, at least.
Act 3 talks:
Anders: I don't know how you live the way you do, blithely ignoring the consequences of your actions.
Isabela: This is about the Qunari thing, isn't it? I'm not ignoring it. I just recognize that it happened years ago. There's this fantastic thing called "moving on." You should try it sometime.
Anders: Has it occurred to you that Kirkwall is only just recovering from the Qunari attack?
Isabela: And you want me to... what? Flog myself daily? Has it occurred to you that maybe there's no justice in the world? Other than that voice you keep in your head.
Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people. What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end? It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started. Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.
And, for the record, Isabela and Aveline being friends:
Aveline: How are you so successful with men? You're not that pretty.
Isabela: Cast a wide enough net, and you're bound to catch something.
Aveline: (Laughs) At least you're willing to admit it.
Isabela: Trust me. I've heard, "Get away from me, you pirate hag!" more times than I care to count.
Aveline: Doesn't that bother you?
Isabela: Why should it? They don't know me. I know me.
Aveline: You're right.
Isabela: About?
Aveline: About knowing who you are. I'm the captain of the guard. I'm loyal, strong, and I don't look too bad naked.
Isabela: Exactly. And if I called you a mannish, awkward, ball-crushing do-gooder, you'd say...?
Aveline: Shut up, whore.
Isabela: That's my girl.
Aveline: You didn't come to my solstice dinner party.
Isabela: Look at you! Dinner parties, cooking... do you have a lace apron yet, or should I get one for you?
Aveline: Don't change the subject. I sent you an invitation, and you didn't show up.
Isabela: I thought it would be... I mean, I don't know. I just don't do family gatherings. Besides, one day you and Donnic will have children, and I'll be the last person you want around them. Imagine all the awkward questions you'd have to answer. "Mother, what's a Slattern?"
Aveline: I'll just point at you and say, "That's a Slattern."
I was always under the impression that he sold it in Act 2 when he returned to Kirkwall.
And after he sold it he went nuts and started experimenting on his servants or whatever he was doing.
However that is just my feeling... I guess he could have sold it if/when he got back to Kirkwall before you at the end of Act 1.
Also, are any of the companions in DA2 actually friends?
The closest I can see are Meryl and Isabela, unless you sleep with both of them.
Merrill, Isabella and Varric are like a weird little family by the end of the game, Isabella and Fenris get on pretty well, Sebastian and Fenris bond a lot. Aveline and Varric get on well and Aveline and Isabella (eventually) become friends. The only people who are out there are Anders and Fenris who are both pretty antisocial and hate each other/Merrill.
I guess I never took Aveline out much as I was a sword/shield warrior; I *did* take Isabela to see Aveline during her thing with Donnic; some of the most hilarious dialogue in the game But I couldn't ever see them becoming friends!!!!
Man they have some of the best friendly dialogue with each other in act 3. You should try as many combinations of companions as possible if you want to get a full picture of their personalities, it really helps flesh out Fenris/Isabella/Aveline and Merrill mostly.
Anders of course has the worst dialogue once he uses up his stories about Ser-Pounce-a-Lot in Act 1. Everyone bitches at him for being a killjoy jackass, even Fenris.
My wife was incredibly sick of Anders whining by the end of her second playthrough (romancing him in both games).
Not sick enough of him to get out the MurderKnife™ in the endgame though
I thought it was blatantly obvious that the idol took Meredith from tough-ass-templar to batshit-crazy-bitch. I really don't see how you can not have gotten that message. The events in question weren't exactly subtle.
Because she wasn't crazy in Act 2, even though she presumably had the idol for some time already. Her sudden insanity was only apparent after you defeat the Harvester.
Anders was a fun character in Awakenings. He was... I did not enjoy him in DA2. He felt less like a companion and more like a random troubled NPC who I could bring on my missions
Because she wasn't crazy in Act 2, even though she presumably had the idol for some time already. Her sudden insanity was only apparent after you defeat the Harvester.
That means nothing. The process might be gradual or whatever. At the finale tho: that was the idol. It's so blatantly shoved into your face that I literally facepalmed the first time I saw it. Especially after Varric's brother's little plotline.
It's actually quite interesting to see Anders in Awakenings after playing DA2.
He is so much more carefree and happy... it's sad what the whole abomination thing did to him
Speaking of bland characters...
How about Sebastian :-/
You mean that guy who's only point is to be inferior to Varric and provide me with juicy DLC xp?
He also provides an insight to the Chantry's views on the Mage/Templar conflict in Kirkwall, which is pretty nice. Hell, it was his Act 3 personal quest that made me side with the Templar's my first time through the game.
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ElixirSaving Your AssAlchemists and Belts EverywhereRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
On Anders: (yeah I'm gonna be that guy and quote myself!)
They really, really wanted to hammer home that the old Anders was essentially gone. Call it character assassination or plot development, its one in the same here. While I don't like it (I really liked him in Awakening) it goes to show
that even good natured Mage and kind spirit can create a fucking awful abomination. Anders as we knew him in Awakening and early DA2 was 'dead' by Act 3. He was just Vengeance.
As shitty as it was to do that to a well liked character, I don't think I have had a game openly make me say "what they shit?!" and actually be pissed about it. Usually anger created by a video game involves falling off platforms and b.s. boss fights.
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Re: Orsino again, those were baby mages. If every mage in there had their boss monster achievements maybe, but otherwise Orsino should realize that just because his cloistered tower lackeys can't handle it doesn't mean the super powerful, publicly-accepted apostate can't.
It made for a comically large disconnect between game and story. It was like, I have full fucking HP Orsino, what is your goddamn problem!?
And aside from that note earlier, was there any indication at all that Orsino was into blood magic?
Thanks, I can't take full credit for it. I'm like 99% sure I read it on these boards before when I lurked as opposed to posting. It does ruin a lot of RPG's. At least in this case Hawke can be influenced bu some evil powers:
That would be another reason he freaks out and goes Harvester, and a fairly believeable one honestly.
Again, it's clearly the sole reason for Meredith's actions. As I've said, there's no debate on that point. You keep bringing the opposite as an evident truth, while the game proves all by itself it is a fallacy. We will not discuss that, because that is self-evident by the construct of the story.
Since there is no layering, there is no distinction, the weakest link in the chain gets 100% of the blame, and that is the idol. There are several points where discussion and reason can be attempted, and they fail 100% of the time, and of all of the times they fail, they fail why? Not because the arguments can't be resolved, certainly (if you hold the belief that mass slaughter is the only answer to any kind of a problem, then we're just not going to discuss this for a myriad of other reasons).
It fails because she's fucking crazy and the "idol is making her do it", which is proven in the end when she goes apeshit because things aren't going her way, thus the last desperate attempt is to go full on out overt.
Again, I know you're trying to make the distinction that "It was all her, but then just at the end, that's when the idol took over". The game explicitly points out with definitive certainty that this line of reasoning is not the case, due to the information given during Varric's sidequest where him and his brother come into contact with the idol. They go full crazy within one second of touching it. Thus Meredith is affected from the moment she touches it.
I mean, this is about the third time I've tried to explain this, so I'm going to stop here and not do it anymore. If you disagree, or can't see my point, then that's that.
I've really tried my best.
Case and point, recall the arrival to Kirkwall sequence. When Hawke is like "WTF do I care if some Templar biddy wants to keep people out" and everyone is like "Dude, don't fuck with Meridith. Shes fucking nuts."
We don't know when she comes into possession of the artifact and I doubt she instantly puts it in her sword. The game makes it seem like the reason she is so aggressive and hateful is because she is corrupted. The game makes it seem that the reason events spiral out of control is because the templars start oppressing the mages with downright evil methods, which of course prompts the mages to respond which leads to the culmination of the game
With the idol there, we now never know if the conflict would have reached this level of clusterfuckery and that takes away a lot from the story which was a lot more interesting when it was just humans doing what humans do.
I mean, at the end of the game Meredith is sporting red glowing eyes, jumps around like a freak and animates statues to do her bidding. She was clearly deeply under the influence at that point
Something Meredith should be aware of and not stupidly go playing around with it.
Except we never get to know that it is powerful in any other way than mindfuckery. We never get to know if Meredith thought it was powerful or just some curiosa she wanted to keep under lock and key. Did it sway her instantly or was it a slow burn? Did she want to use it against the mages or was the idol using her? We have no idea what actually happened with the Idol for 95% of the game because it is so far removed from actual gameplay and story development except for the very end.
Yup! A proven fact. Just stand about and listen. Hell it comes up when you talk to the first two guards right when you get off the boat.
If you try to blame 100% of Meredith's actions 100% on the idol, then you're saying that even if she was a completely reasonable person from the beginning and Kirkwall had great relations between templars and mages, blood mages were not an issue, and Anders was totally cool, Meredith would still go KILL ALL MAGES simply by being in contact with the idol. She probably wouldn't even want to buy the idol in the first place if there wasn't a major templar/mage problem brewing.
Really?
I got the impression she was "Tough but fair" when they first introduce her. Yes, people are unhappy her position is the one holding all power, but other than that, from all the accounts others gave of her, it seemed she knew how to keep shit together in a difficult situation (Arishok, mages and a massive influx of immigrants from Ferelden where the war is going on being "problems").
It's when she gets unreasonable and apeshit that's the problem, and that's exclusively post idol.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Nevermind. I'm not going through it a 4th time.
Verricks bro literally goes insane and sacrifices his own brother the moment he comes near the artifact. That was the game saying the artifact was ridiculously dangerous
Meredith did not spend several years with the artifact without going insane. She was influenced the moment she bought it and then spends YEARS with it in her possession. By the time shit really goes down in the game she is so utterly corrupted she is basically not even human anymore
So yeah, that kind of undermines everything about her.
Once again "Person gets corrupted" in itself is not a horrible plot point, but the way they chose to present this in the game was horrible. I think some people are defending the plot itself while others are hating on the implementation and it's just two different things altogether
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
Plush
So we'd not really know how deeply the idol impacted on Meredith at all
Now I'm in act three, it's no longer for sale, and I get the distinct feeling I may be using a random staff I find.
And prior to it all, everybody talks about Meredith being hardcore prejudiced against mages. It's a known thing.
Then there's the (hilariously named) Tranquil Solution quest in Act 2, where some Templar is outright asking Meredith to make all the mages Tranquil, and she declined it. If she has the idol at that point, she's still smart enough to know that trying to do that would probably cause Kirkwall to go up in a puff of smoke as all the mages rebel. She certainly wasn't crazy enough to give it the ok.
In fact, we don't even know how rich Bartrand got from the expedition. We know he didn't get poorer from it, and we know Hawke got a lot richer than Bartrand. It's reasonable to think that the idol went straight into Meredith's hands when he sold it off, since it was probably sold for a lot of money and the Templars probably have gobs of money, but we don't really know.
So it's really hard to establish a timeline for Meredith getting the idol and going nuts as a result of having the thing.
Because enemy resistances are sort of hidden in the game (there is a chart online somewhere...), I suggest keeping one of each element aside from physical (they blow hardcore because basic enemy damage resistance effects them) and switch depending on the enemy. Ice/spirit are good all around, but some enemies are weak to fire, nature + lightning. At most it takes up 5 inventory slots. Considering I have quested for like 5 dungeons in a row without needing to unload loot, its not a big inventory hog.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
And after he sold it he went nuts and started experimenting on his servants or whatever he was doing.
However that is just my feeling... I guess he could have sold it if/when he got back to Kirkwall before you at the end of Act 1.
Also, are any of the companions in DA2 actually friends?
The closest I can see are Meryl and Isabela, unless you sleep with both of them.
Merrill, Isabella and Varric are like a weird little family by the end of the game, Isabella and Fenris get on pretty well, Sebastian and Fenris bond a lot. Aveline and Varric get on well and Aveline and Isabella (eventually) become friends. The only people who are out there are Anders and Fenris who are both pretty antisocial and hate each other/Merrill.
I guess I never took Aveline out much as I was a sword/shield warrior; I *did* take Isabela to see Aveline during her thing with Donnic; some of the most hilarious dialogue in the game
Man they have some of the best friendly dialogue with each other in act 3. You should try as many combinations of companions as possible if you want to get a full picture of their personalities, it really helps flesh out Fenris/Isabella/Aveline and Merrill mostly.
Anders of course has the worst dialogue once he uses up his stories about Ser-Pounce-a-Lot in Act 1. Everyone bitches at him for being a killjoy jackass, even Fenris.
Act 3 talks:
Isabela: This is about the Qunari thing, isn't it? I'm not ignoring it. I just recognize that it happened years ago. There's this fantastic thing called "moving on." You should try it sometime.
Anders: Has it occurred to you that Kirkwall is only just recovering from the Qunari attack?
Isabela: And you want me to... what? Flog myself daily? Has it occurred to you that maybe there's no justice in the world? Other than that voice you keep in your head.
Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people. What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end? It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started. Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.
And, for the record, Isabela and Aveline being friends:
Isabela: Cast a wide enough net, and you're bound to catch something.
Aveline: (Laughs) At least you're willing to admit it.
Isabela: Trust me. I've heard, "Get away from me, you pirate hag!" more times than I care to count.
Aveline: Doesn't that bother you?
Isabela: Why should it? They don't know me. I know me.
Aveline: You're right.
Isabela: About?
Aveline: About knowing who you are. I'm the captain of the guard. I'm loyal, strong, and I don't look too bad naked.
Isabela: Exactly. And if I called you a mannish, awkward, ball-crushing do-gooder, you'd say...?
Aveline: Shut up, whore.
Isabela: That's my girl.
Aveline: You didn't come to my solstice dinner party.
Isabela: Look at you! Dinner parties, cooking... do you have a lace apron yet, or should I get one for you?
Aveline: Don't change the subject. I sent you an invitation, and you didn't show up.
Isabela: I thought it would be... I mean, I don't know. I just don't do family gatherings. Besides, one day you and Donnic will have children, and I'll be the last person you want around them. Imagine all the awkward questions you'd have to answer. "Mother, what's a Slattern?"
Aveline: I'll just point at you and say, "That's a Slattern."
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
My wife was incredibly sick of Anders whining by the end of her second playthrough (romancing him in both games).
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
That means nothing. The process might be gradual or whatever. At the finale tho: that was the idol. It's so blatantly shoved into your face that I literally facepalmed the first time I saw it. Especially after Varric's brother's little plotline.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
He is so much more carefree and happy... it's sad what the whole abomination thing did to him
Speaking of bland characters...
How about Sebastian :-/
You mean that guy who's only point is to be inferior to Varric and provide me with juicy DLC xp?
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
He also provides an insight to the Chantry's views on the Mage/Templar conflict in Kirkwall, which is pretty nice. Hell, it was his Act 3 personal quest that made me side with the Templar's my first time through the game.
As shitty as it was to do that to a well liked character, I don't think I have had a game openly make me say "what they shit?!" and actually be pissed about it. Usually anger created by a video game involves falling off platforms and b.s. boss fights.
Who would win a duel? ;p
I'd say Flemeth unless Anders managed a Pre-emptive terrorist strike on her hut.