I doubt most pros would agree, even on the show no one would say they have a scouting problem except Idra. I jsut think it all comes down to the game being too new to saying anything for sure yet.
Should it take a year for one of the races to still not have effective early game scouting figured out?
I doubt most pros would agree, even on the show no one would say they have a scouting problem except Idra. I jsut think it all comes down to the game being too new to saying anything for sure yet.
Should it take a year for one of the races to still not have effective early game scouting figured out?
I doubt most pros would agree, even on the show no one would say they have a scouting problem except Idra. I jsut think it all comes down to the game being too new to saying anything for sure yet.
Should it take a year for one of the races to still not have effective early game scouting figured out?
How do Protoss early game scout?
Versus Zerg pretty much everyone is hallucinating Phoenix now.
815165 on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Why did JP bring this up?
This is just painful to watch.
And for once I'm siding against Tyler. I think he's being a tremendous asshole about this whole thing. And pulling the TEAM LIQUID IS OUR FORUMS thing feels...I dunno, really lame. Yes, technically it's Liquid's forums but it's the main, central forum for all things Starcraft. That's where people go to talk about it. It's not like it's some side forum like PA or something.
I think Colbi fucked up slightly (should've asked TL how they'd like to respond to questions on their absence from the tourney), but Tyler's response is unreasonable and... dumb.
I doubt most pros would agree, even on the show no one would say they have a scouting problem except Idra. I jsut think it all comes down to the game being too new to saying anything for sure yet.
Should it take a year for one of the races to still not have effective early game scouting figured out?
How do Protoss early game scout?
Versus Zerg pretty much everyone is hallucinating Phoenix now.
Against terran, but is it really that much better than overlords? I mean against terran you almost never get hallucinate and you scout with your first obs with can be killed just like an overlord except it costs gas and takes tech to get to.
I think Colbi fucked up slightly (should've asked TL how they'd like to respond to questions on their absence from the tourney), but Tyler's response is unreasonable and... dumb.
Yeah, I think that would have been the ideal way for Colbi to handle it. But Tyler's handling it like a jerk.
I wonder why people listen to IdrA when he talks about balance. He's extremely skilled, but he's always been known as a conventional player who wins on superior mechanics and practice rather than creativity. So if the meta-game gets into a bit of a rut ZvX, he's convinced that the situation is unwinnable and Blizzard/mapmakers need to fix it.
Plus he's way too emotional about the whole thing. It undermines the legitimacy of any point he makes, good or bad.
Because he's right. Any pro will agree that zerg is at a significant disadvantage in the early game due to impoverished early scouting coupled with a variety of early pressure options from the other races that require different responses. That's fact.
Whether it's a disadvantage that can't be overcome some other way (which is what Sean seemed to be arguing) or if it requires balance changes to fix is the real argument.
I doubt most pros would agree, even on the show no one would say they have a scouting problem except Idra. I jsut think it all comes down to the game being too new to saying anything for sure yet.
Wrong. This is the consensus of the community. They've agreed since the beta that early game scouting is impoverished and zerg suffers the most from it.
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
I doubt most pros would agree, even on the show no one would say they have a scouting problem except Idra. I jsut think it all comes down to the game being too new to saying anything for sure yet.
Should it take a year for one of the races to still not have effective early game scouting figured out?
How do Protoss early game scout?
Versus Zerg pretty much everyone is hallucinating Phoenix now.
Against terran, but is it really that much better than overlords?
If Overlords were as fast as Phoenixes Zerg wouldn't have early game scouting problems.
815165 on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Basically, Liquid is throwing a temper tantrum and Tyler is being an asshole about the whole thing and he doesn't actually have a good point. He's saying "well Colbi should have explained everything" but that would be completely rude and presumptious.
Also, Tyler, you are not a fucking TL admin or mod. Leave that shit to the people who actually run the site.
I doubt most pros would agree, even on the show no one would say they have a scouting problem except Idra. I jsut think it all comes down to the game being too new to saying anything for sure yet.
Should it take a year for one of the races to still not have effective early game scouting figured out?
How do Protoss early game scout?
Versus Zerg pretty much everyone is hallucinating Phoenix now.
Against terran, but is it really that much better than overlords?
If Overlords were as fast as Phoenixes Zerg wouldn't have early game scouting problems.
I am just saying that is the difference that huge that zerg really have no chance at all and the game has to be changed?
Fizban140 on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Wow, this is just getting progressively worse.
Tyler is starting to sound like a serious asshole here.
I am just saying that is the difference that huge that zerg really have no chance at all and the game has to be changed?
No chance at all is a definite overstatement, but the combination of being the defensive, reactive race and having no decent means of gaining the information to react to is why Zergs start at a deficit it seems. The idea of spine crawlers having a shorter build time makes sense because even though it doesn't effect the scouting issue it allows the Zerg to react to a push as it happens instead of placing them predictively like you do now.
Also Tyler is being pretty silly on SOTG.
815165 on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Tyler's perspective is pretty simple.
He doesn't like duplicity, especially in what he feels is "his community".
Pretty common sentiment in general, even if it's naive.
And pretty ridiculous coming from someone who has sponsors. I'm fairly certain he doesn't spend his days chewing stride gum and downloading stuff from the little app factory.
I am just saying that is the difference that huge that zerg really have no chance at all and the game has to be changed?
No chance at all is a definite overstatement, but the combination of being the defensive, reactive race and having no decent means of gaining the information to react to is why Zergs start at a deficit it seems. The idea of spine crawlers having a shorter build time makes sense because even though it doesn't effect the scouting issue it allows the Zerg to react to a push as it happens instead of placing them predictively like you do now.
Its weird you can pinpoint the exact night iNcontrol sold his soul; nono I have to be a PR infused machine now because I restreamed something once.
Some of these dudes are too obsessed with getting support for progaming and not maintaining the spirit of it.
On the nice side, I knew that gateway timing change was madness and that they only need to tweak sentries. Its odd though because warpins of a sentry is probably usually at an advantage because it starts the energy accumulation immediately.
They should seriously rethink strike cannon, maybe something that would get rid of their mobility problem. Like an oil slick so they can escape from zerglings after a big fight.
I seriously cannot understand how someone can think they played better that game when they lose.
Makes. No. Sense.
Fixed it.
It should be pretty obvious all the ways somebody can be the better player overall in all their games even if they lose one game against someone. A single match is not a sufficient sample size to accurately determine a player's skill level in any game or sport or what have you.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Its weird you can pinpoint the exact night iNcontrol sold his soul; nono I have to be a PR infused machine now because I restreamed something once.
Some of these dudes are too obsessed with getting support for progaming and not maintaining the spirit of it.
On the nice side, I knew that gateway timing change was madness and that they only need to tweak sentries. Its odd though because warpins of a sentry is probably usually at an advantage because it starts the energy accumulation immediately.
What? What the fuck? iNcontroL is the one being reasonable here. Tyler's response has been absolutely ridiculous.
Hahaha, the best thing about bringing this up in sotg and forcing Tyler to explain his position is that it shows he is unquestionably wrong. Force someone to explain themselves long enough and if they're full of shit it all just poops right out.
Its weird you can pinpoint the exact night iNcontrol sold his soul; nono I have to be a PR infused machine now because I restreamed something once.
Some of these dudes are too obsessed with getting support for progaming and not maintaining the spirit of it.
On the nice side, I knew that gateway timing change was madness and that they only need to tweak sentries. Its odd though because warpins of a sentry is probably usually at an advantage because it starts the energy accumulation immediately.
He is the face of a $100,000 tournament...
Fizban140 on
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
edited May 2011
Tasteless looks like the joker right now
TannerMS on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Hahaha, the best thing about bringing this up in sotg and forcing Tyler to explain his position is that it shows he is unquestionably wrong. Force someone to explain themselves long enough and if they're full of shit it all just poops right out.
His defenses eventually became a ridiculously selfish, stupid viewpoint.
I don't understand why JP brought that up. Seriously put a damper on SotG.
I am just saying that is the difference that huge that zerg really have no chance at all and the game has to be changed?
No chance at all is a definite overstatement, but the combination of being the defensive, reactive race and having no decent means of gaining the information to react to is why Zergs start at a deficit it seems. The idea of spine crawlers having a shorter build time makes sense because even though it doesn't effect the scouting issue it allows the Zerg to react to a push as it happens instead of placing them predictively like you do now.
Also Tyler is being pretty silly on SOTG.
Can't zerg scouting be solved by map design also?
I'm not sure how without only using wide (or no) ramps or really tiny mains so Overlords can gain more information before they're shot down as there's no room to build your tech away from the cliffs. Both of these would be detrimental to the other match ups.
I think the more simple solution is to make reacting easier rather than trying to make Zerg information gathering easier. It's really the combination of the two rather than one being a problem.
I am just saying that is the difference that huge that zerg really have no chance at all and the game has to be changed?
No chance at all is a definite overstatement, but the combination of being the defensive, reactive race and having no decent means of gaining the information to react to is why Zergs start at a deficit it seems. The idea of spine crawlers having a shorter build time makes sense because even though it doesn't effect the scouting issue it allows the Zerg to react to a push as it happens instead of placing them predictively like you do now.
Also Tyler is being pretty silly on SOTG.
Can't zerg scouting be solved by map design also?
I'm not sure how without only using wide (or no) ramps or really tiny mains so Overlords can gain more information before they're shot down as there's no room to build your tech away from the cliffs. Both of these would be detrimental to the other match ups.
I think the more simple solution is to make reacting easier rather than trying to make Zerg information gathering easier. It's really the combination of the two rather than one being a problem.
Make overlord speed an early/easier upgrade maybe? OR jsut make them a little faster.
Fizban140 on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I am just saying that is the difference that huge that zerg really have no chance at all and the game has to be changed?
No chance at all is a definite overstatement, but the combination of being the defensive, reactive race and having no decent means of gaining the information to react to is why Zergs start at a deficit it seems. The idea of spine crawlers having a shorter build time makes sense because even though it doesn't effect the scouting issue it allows the Zerg to react to a push as it happens instead of placing them predictively like you do now.
Also Tyler is being pretty silly on SOTG.
Can't zerg scouting be solved by map design also?
I'm not sure how without only using wide (or no) ramps or really tiny mains so Overlords can gain more information before they're shot down as there's no room to build your tech away from the cliffs. Both of these would be detrimental to the other match ups.
I think the more simple solution is to make reacting easier rather than trying to make Zerg information gathering easier. It's really the combination of the two rather than one being a problem.
Maybe a creep colony ish mechanic? Like there's just "colonies" that have a 30-35 second build time and do nothing but can move. And then they can be made into spines or spores in 15-20 seconds so that there's quicker reaction time available?
I dunno.
3cl1ps3 on
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
Make overlord speed an early/easier upgrade maybe? OR jsut make them a little faster.
It was originally cheaper but they doubled its cost because they felt like Zergs researched it every game no matter what and wanted to encourage other options
Hahaha, the best thing about bringing this up in sotg and forcing Tyler to explain his position is that it shows he is unquestionably wrong. Force someone to explain themselves long enough and if they're full of shit it all just poops right out.
His defenses eventually became a ridiculously selfish, stupid viewpoint.
I don't understand why JP brought that up. Seriously put a damper on SotG.
It was fascinating watching Tyler talk himself into a bottomless pit of no return. It's nice to get that off the table without having to slog through a TL thread full of bullshit.
Posts
Also, tyler. Cry some more.
How do Protoss early game scout?
This is just painful to watch.
And for once I'm siding against Tyler. I think he's being a tremendous asshole about this whole thing. And pulling the TEAM LIQUID IS OUR FORUMS thing feels...I dunno, really lame. Yes, technically it's Liquid's forums but it's the main, central forum for all things Starcraft. That's where people go to talk about it. It's not like it's some side forum like PA or something.
Against terran, but is it really that much better than overlords? I mean against terran you almost never get hallucinate and you scout with your first obs with can be killed just like an overlord except it costs gas and takes tech to get to.
Yeah, I think that would have been the ideal way for Colbi to handle it. But Tyler's handling it like a jerk.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Wrong. This is the consensus of the community. They've agreed since the beta that early game scouting is impoverished and zerg suffers the most from it.
Kind of where I'm standing, tl.net isn't Team Liquid, it's the entire competitive Starcraft community.
I don't even understand where Tyler's coming from, this is bizarre as fuck
Also, Tyler, you are not a fucking TL admin or mod. Leave that shit to the people who actually run the site.
I am just saying that is the difference that huge that zerg really have no chance at all and the game has to be changed?
Tyler is starting to sound like a serious asshole here.
DONT TRUST ANYONE
where's the chilltoss i know and love
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
He doesn't like duplicity, especially in what he feels is "his community".
Pretty common sentiment in general, even if it's naive.
Tyler sounds like an idealistic 14 yr old girl
PS poor tasteless
"I just want my mom and dad to stop fighting"
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
Also Tyler is being pretty silly on SOTG.
And pretty ridiculous coming from someone who has sponsors. I'm fairly certain he doesn't spend his days chewing stride gum and downloading stuff from the little app factory.
Can't zerg scouting be solved by map design also?
Some of these dudes are too obsessed with getting support for progaming and not maintaining the spirit of it.
On the nice side, I knew that gateway timing change was madness and that they only need to tweak sentries. Its odd though because warpins of a sentry is probably usually at an advantage because it starts the energy accumulation immediately.
They should seriously rethink strike cannon, maybe something that would get rid of their mobility problem. Like an oil slick so they can escape from zerglings after a big fight.
Fixed it.
It should be pretty obvious all the ways somebody can be the better player overall in all their games even if they lose one game against someone. A single match is not a sufficient sample size to accurately determine a player's skill level in any game or sport or what have you.
What? What the fuck? iNcontroL is the one being reasonable here. Tyler's response has been absolutely ridiculous.
He is the face of a $100,000 tournament...
His defenses eventually became a ridiculously selfish, stupid viewpoint.
I don't understand why JP brought that up. Seriously put a damper on SotG.
I think the more simple solution is to make reacting easier rather than trying to make Zerg information gathering easier. It's really the combination of the two rather than one being a problem.
Make overlord speed an early/easier upgrade maybe? OR jsut make them a little faster.
Maybe a creep colony ish mechanic? Like there's just "colonies" that have a 30-35 second build time and do nothing but can move. And then they can be made into spines or spores in 15-20 seconds so that there's quicker reaction time available?
I dunno.
It was originally cheaper but they doubled its cost because they felt like Zergs researched it every game no matter what and wanted to encourage other options
This is the best SotG ever.