Make overlord speed an early/easier upgrade maybe? OR jsut make them a little faster.
I would not be surprised if HotS actually solved some issues for zerg. Even reading the notes from Blizzard's artist about upcoming HotS stuff sounds really exciting.
Make overlord speed an early/easier upgrade maybe? OR jsut make them a little faster.
It was originally cheaper but they doubled its cost because they felt like Zergs researched it every game no matter what and wanted to encourage other options
I wasn't agreeing with anyone, I was just saying iNcontrol is so translucently busineess minded with the community now its kind of sad.
edit: what the ffook I didn't say he wasn't entertaining it just sucks that he reads into a few comments and thinks he has to be suit and tie quite often, and you can see him snap in and out of it.
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
I missed the beginning but it's been pretty funny
the eg thing was worth airing out I guess. personally I'm not concerned with who's right or wrong I just don't want animosity between the teams and I don't think there will be any to worry about.
the eg thing was worth airing out I guess. personally I'm not concerned with who's right or wrong I just don't want animosity between the teams and I don't think there will be any to worry about.
Seems like they've all known each other way too long to stay mad.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Day9 was pretty clear, he doesn't like to discuss balance especially when it is something like what Idra was doing based on feelings and not a lot of evidence and data to back it up.
Day9 didn't do the greatest job of presenting his opinion, though that was at least partially because IdrA kept interrupting him and/or responding with the exact same sentence every time. I don't think IdrA's repetition was particularly compelling either. Seems like if you're already convinced that Zerg is the worst at everything forever, the "wait for the meta-game to mature" argument is going to come off as weak. Particularly when Day decides to stop arguing it due to its futility, which the IdrA booster's will take as IdrA winning.
More referring to people in the chat (and I guess on Reddit), not necessarily people on this forum.
Day9 previously simply laughed and decided to abstain from discussion (because he doesn't believe the discussion should exist in the first place). On this episode, when he decided to actually somewhat try and jump-in, he realized he had no real responses.
The whole "all games are eventually balanced" was contrived, and certainly stalemates/coinflip balances are not what people mean using that word within the SC community. Him feeling that the game is too unexplored so far to have the discussion is also just that - a feeling. Something that should be kept in mind is that the meta-game of SC2 is developing a lot quicker than SC1.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
edited May 2011
Wow, watching HuK in a PvT right now. Apparently he is playing around with using warp prisms to move around HT's and drop them in a battle. Cool to see a pro attempting tactics people have hypothesized about for so long.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
It wasn't contrived. But he attacked it with a very math major mentality. My math major friends argue the same way.
It's perfectly logically sound, it just doesn't make sense to the rest of us because it's often such a highly precise viewpoint that it has little bearing on reality.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
edited May 2011
That was a very cool PvT that just went down on HuK's stream. It was exhausting just to watch it!
It wasn't contrived. But he attacked it with a very math major mentality. My math major friends argue the same way.
It's perfectly logically sound, it just doesn't make sense to the rest of us because it's often such a highly precise viewpoint that it has little bearing on reality.
Yes, forcing an irrelevant math definition to a common word in order to make a point (that the game is balanced) is contrived.
Tic-tac-toe may be perfectly balanced, but it isn't fun for anyone. Which is actually the purpose behind balance in games in the end, fun.
It's the same reason why statistical balance isn't the end all to the issue and as I understand it Blizzard doesn't only use statistics to balance things (a good thing).
I just get tired of the argument that Zerg is fundamentally flawed, even though the game is so young. We're still seeing new styles pop up, like Spanishwa's ZvX builds, and Banshee-heavy (Synystyr/Jinro) or Thor-heavy (Thorzain/Predy) compositions in TvP, that could potentially have big impacts on the meta-game, but are discounted or ignored for the "standard play" that everyone continues to say is underpowered.
Back on the topic of ZvX, I guess my question to Zerg players is this (given my weak understanding of Zerg): Why is it that sacrificing some economy for safety (i.e., a few extra spine crawlers and a couple extra queens) is considered as putting you too far behind economically to win consistently, even though Zerg's economic production once safe is far superior to the other races? I see Spanishwa going 4 Spine Crawler/4 Queen and holding off 4 and 6 gates easily, followed by an easy macro-game win, and it seems to make too much sense to so casually dismiss. He didn't seem to lose too much when that big push didn't come either. He also seemed to have insanely high confidence that he would hold any aggression and win in the long run. Granted, not the absolute tip-top level of play, but I don't think IdrA trying it a couple of times and losing (particularly when he's probably already convinced that it will fail, given his attitude towards the game) is evidence that it cannot work at that level.
So yeah. I'm not going to say IdrA is wrong necessarily, but I also don't see why the "game not fully explored" argument isn't an equally valid argument.
I hear that a lot of the best koreans (MC and.. um. There was someone else) say that HuK is the best foreign player? Why is it that whenever I see HuK play in a tournament he's fucking terrible. I'm convinced that HuK is bad.
It wasn't contrived. But he attacked it with a very math major mentality. My math major friends argue the same way.
It's perfectly logically sound, it just doesn't make sense to the rest of us because it's often such a highly precise viewpoint that it has little bearing on reality.
The problem is that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. It can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.
Like, "I think Y happens because of X." So you investigate variations of X and see what effect it has on Y.
Except to change X, you realize that either has an effect on Z or you need to change Z to change X which also seems to affect Y, so now all you know is that it looks like both X and Z affect Y but you aren't even sure of that anymore.
Which is part of the reason, I think, that Day9 doesn't like to talk about "balance": there are SO MANY factors that influence so many different parts of the game, that it's simply ignorant to say the game is imbalanced. If it was something egregious like you can do this build two minutes into the game and you never lose, then yeah, but when you're talking about games that can last anywhere from five minutes to two hours and there are different builds and decisions to make every step of the way, it is intellectually dishonest to say you know for a fact the game is imbalanced, most of the time.
It wasn't contrived. But he attacked it with a very math major mentality. My math major friends argue the same way.
It's perfectly logically sound, it just doesn't make sense to the rest of us because it's often such a highly precise viewpoint that it has little bearing on reality.
The problem is that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. It can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.
Like, "I think Y happens because of X." So you investigate variations of X and see what effect it has on Y.
Except to change X, you realize that either has an effect on Z or you need to change Z to change X which also seems to affect Y, so now all you know is that it looks like both X and Z affect Y but you aren't even sure of that anymore.
Which is part of the reason, I think, that Day9 doesn't like to talk about "balance": there are SO MANY factors that influence so many different parts of the game, that it's simply ignorant to say the game is imbalanced. If it was something egregious like you can do this build two minutes into the game and you never lose, then yeah, but when you're talking about games that can last anywhere from five minutes to two hours and there are different builds and decisions to make every step of the way, it is intellectually dishonest to say you know for a fact the game is imbalanced, most of the time.
I agree. Doesn't Sheth have like a 70+ % winrate v P? And he plays some damn good Protoss. That doesn't smack of ZvP IS TOTALLY BROKED to me.
And then IdrA won the IPL. Against KiWiKaKi! Who's INCREDIBLE. But then he said "well I trained in Korea I'm supposed to win." Except Kiwi is a goddamn good player who can hold his own against Koreans.
It wasn't contrived. But he attacked it with a very math major mentality. My math major friends argue the same way.
It's perfectly logically sound, it just doesn't make sense to the rest of us because it's often such a highly precise viewpoint that it has little bearing on reality.
The problem is that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. It can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.
Like, "I think Y happens because of X." So you investigate variations of X and see what effect it has on Y.
Except to change X, you realize that either has an effect on Z or you need to change Z to change X which also seems to affect Y, so now all you know is that it looks like both X and Z affect Y but you aren't even sure of that anymore.
Which is part of the reason, I think, that Day9 doesn't like to talk about "balance": there are SO MANY factors that influence so many different parts of the game, that it's simply ignorant to say the game is imbalanced. If it was something egregious like you can do this build two minutes into the game and you never lose, then yeah, but when you're talking about games that can last anywhere from five minutes to two hours and there are different builds and decisions to make every step of the way, it is intellectually dishonest to say you know for a fact the game is imbalanced, most of the time.
I agree. Doesn't Sheth have like a 70+ % winrate v P? And he plays some damn good Protoss. That doesn't smack of ZvP IS TOTALLY BROKED to me.
IdrA's argument against ZvX builds is its inability to be strong against a similarly econ-centric build partially because of racial inequalities. Racial inequalities being - Weak early game melee units - Poor ability to scout and hence poor ability to adapt to opponent. On top of that, Zerg can't harass effectively to stop opponent's econ build because of racial inequality.
IdrA goes on to chalk most of the Zerg wins from either 1) purely better play or 2) pure luck in an appropriate counter strategy.
HuK's probe harass is amazing. He just shut down NesTea's closest mineral patch almost completely for a minute or two by beginning to mine it over and over.
terran pisses me off so much. it feels like they get tons of awesome shit for no apparent reason.
I lost a game earlier today because of a PF. when a PF has an army near by, that expansion feels damn well impossible to take down, and that's just bullshit. I had a better army, better upgrades, and lost because of a PF in the middle of the map. Yeah, I should have known better than to attack, but an expansion being untouchable for such little cost seems like bullshit to me.
And while I'm at it, why the hell did they remove flux vanes? Now that I think about it, was it really that OP? Were we really seeing people abuse VR speed left and right? It had already been nerfed once. But no, I guess having any toss units other than the phoenix that didn't move like it was stuck in molasses would ruin the whole game.
terran pisses me off so much. it feels like they get tons of awesome shit for no apparent reason.
I lost a game earlier today because of a PF. when a PF has an army near by, that expansion feels damn well impossible to take down, and that's just bullshit. I had a better army, better upgrades, and lost because of a PF in the middle of the map. Yeah, I should have known better than to attack, but an expansion being untouchable for such little cost seems like bullshit to me.
And while I'm at it, why the hell did they remove flux vanes? Now that I think about it, was it really that OP? Were we really seeing people abuse VR speed left and right? It had already been nerfed once. But no, I guess having any toss units other than the phoenix that didn't move like it was stuck in molasses would ruin the whole game.
Think of a PF as a really big siege tank. With armor. And repairs. Why would you engage on a PF. Engaging there is the equivalent of a bio ball fighting in a choke against colloxen/storms.
Also, VRs were that bad. Flux vanes meant impossible to kill VRs.
It wasn't contrived. But he attacked it with a very math major mentality. My math major friends argue the same way.
It's perfectly logically sound, it just doesn't make sense to the rest of us because it's often such a highly precise viewpoint that it has little bearing on reality.
The problem is that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. It can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.
Like, "I think Y happens because of X." So you investigate variations of X and see what effect it has on Y.
Except to change X, you realize that either has an effect on Z or you need to change Z to change X which also seems to affect Y, so now all you know is that it looks like both X and Z affect Y but you aren't even sure of that anymore.
Which is part of the reason, I think, that Day9 doesn't like to talk about "balance": there are SO MANY factors that influence so many different parts of the game, that it's simply ignorant to say the game is imbalanced. If it was something egregious like you can do this build two minutes into the game and you never lose, then yeah, but when you're talking about games that can last anywhere from five minutes to two hours and there are different builds and decisions to make every step of the way, it is intellectually dishonest to say you know for a fact the game is imbalanced, most of the time.
I agree. Doesn't Sheth have like a 70+ % winrate v P? And he plays some damn good Protoss. That doesn't smack of ZvP IS TOTALLY BROKED to me.
Sample sizes of 1 are meaningless. :E
The real question is why aren't more zergs playing sheth's style?
The real power of PFs is that you can repair them. 4 SCVs completely negates the damage done to a PF by an Immortal (or 4 Stalkers). You can't really engage a saturated PF with a HT-less Gateway army unless you have a large force.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
It wasn't contrived. But he attacked it with a very math major mentality. My math major friends argue the same way.
It's perfectly logically sound, it just doesn't make sense to the rest of us because it's often such a highly precise viewpoint that it has little bearing on reality.
The problem is that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. It can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.
Like, "I think Y happens because of X." So you investigate variations of X and see what effect it has on Y.
Except to change X, you realize that either has an effect on Z or you need to change Z to change X which also seems to affect Y, so now all you know is that it looks like both X and Z affect Y but you aren't even sure of that anymore.
Which is part of the reason, I think, that Day9 doesn't like to talk about "balance": there are SO MANY factors that influence so many different parts of the game, that it's simply ignorant to say the game is imbalanced. If it was something egregious like you can do this build two minutes into the game and you never lose, then yeah, but when you're talking about games that can last anywhere from five minutes to two hours and there are different builds and decisions to make every step of the way, it is intellectually dishonest to say you know for a fact the game is imbalanced, most of the time.
I agree. Doesn't Sheth have like a 70+ % winrate v P? And he plays some damn good Protoss. That doesn't smack of ZvP IS TOTALLY BROKED to me.
Sample sizes of 1 are meaningless. :E
Ah, but it's not a sample size of 1! The sample size is his games. It's simply a dimension of 1.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
A planetary fortress is no better than a network of cannons, and spending a thousand or so minerals lategame as Protoss is pretty trivial. There's no real comparison directly. Terran doesn't have warp-in, for example, or any non-PF ground based Defense.
Posts
I would not be surprised if HotS actually solved some issues for zerg. Even reading the notes from Blizzard's artist about upcoming HotS stuff sounds really exciting.
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
*cough* warpgates *cough* conc shells *cough*
edit: what the ffook I didn't say he wasn't entertaining it just sucks that he reads into a few comments and thinks he has to be suit and tie quite often, and you can see him snap in and out of it.
I disagree, do you watch NASL at all? He has a lot of fun, and his stream is the same. He genuinely likes this and you can tell.
I also disagree. In this argument he was defending EG, which is like...his team. And it didn't seem business minded to me in any way at all.
Idra can be quite a funny guy.
the eg thing was worth airing out I guess. personally I'm not concerned with who's right or wrong I just don't want animosity between the teams and I don't think there will be any to worry about.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
He like, barely got to talk.
Ooh, that wink. Tasteless so sexy.
People on screddit saying Idra made such a good argument he left Day9 speechless.
More referring to people in the chat (and I guess on Reddit), not necessarily people on this forum.
Day9 previously simply laughed and decided to abstain from discussion (because he doesn't believe the discussion should exist in the first place). On this episode, when he decided to actually somewhat try and jump-in, he realized he had no real responses.
The whole "all games are eventually balanced" was contrived, and certainly stalemates/coinflip balances are not what people mean using that word within the SC community. Him feeling that the game is too unexplored so far to have the discussion is also just that - a feeling. Something that should be kept in mind is that the meta-game of SC2 is developing a lot quicker than SC1.
It's perfectly logically sound, it just doesn't make sense to the rest of us because it's often such a highly precise viewpoint that it has little bearing on reality.
Yes, forcing an irrelevant math definition to a common word in order to make a point (that the game is balanced) is contrived.
Tic-tac-toe may be perfectly balanced, but it isn't fun for anyone. Which is actually the purpose behind balance in games in the end, fun.
It's the same reason why statistical balance isn't the end all to the issue and as I understand it Blizzard doesn't only use statistics to balance things (a good thing).
Back on the topic of ZvX, I guess my question to Zerg players is this (given my weak understanding of Zerg): Why is it that sacrificing some economy for safety (i.e., a few extra spine crawlers and a couple extra queens) is considered as putting you too far behind economically to win consistently, even though Zerg's economic production once safe is far superior to the other races? I see Spanishwa going 4 Spine Crawler/4 Queen and holding off 4 and 6 gates easily, followed by an easy macro-game win, and it seems to make too much sense to so casually dismiss. He didn't seem to lose too much when that big push didn't come either. He also seemed to have insanely high confidence that he would hold any aggression and win in the long run. Granted, not the absolute tip-top level of play, but I don't think IdrA trying it a couple of times and losing (particularly when he's probably already convinced that it will fail, given his attitude towards the game) is evidence that it cannot work at that level.
So yeah. I'm not going to say IdrA is wrong necessarily, but I also don't see why the "game not fully explored" argument isn't an equally valid argument.
The problem is that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. It can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.
Like, "I think Y happens because of X." So you investigate variations of X and see what effect it has on Y.
Except to change X, you realize that either has an effect on Z or you need to change Z to change X which also seems to affect Y, so now all you know is that it looks like both X and Z affect Y but you aren't even sure of that anymore.
Which is part of the reason, I think, that Day9 doesn't like to talk about "balance": there are SO MANY factors that influence so many different parts of the game, that it's simply ignorant to say the game is imbalanced. If it was something egregious like you can do this build two minutes into the game and you never lose, then yeah, but when you're talking about games that can last anywhere from five minutes to two hours and there are different builds and decisions to make every step of the way, it is intellectually dishonest to say you know for a fact the game is imbalanced, most of the time.
I agree. Doesn't Sheth have like a 70+ % winrate v P? And he plays some damn good Protoss. That doesn't smack of ZvP IS TOTALLY BROKED to me.
And then IdrA won the IPL. Against KiWiKaKi! Who's INCREDIBLE. But then he said "well I trained in Korea I'm supposed to win." Except Kiwi is a goddamn good player who can hold his own against Koreans.
Sample sizes of 1 are meaningless. :E
IdrA goes on to chalk most of the Zerg wins from either 1) purely better play or 2) pure luck in an appropriate counter strategy.
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
I lost a game earlier today because of a PF. when a PF has an army near by, that expansion feels damn well impossible to take down, and that's just bullshit. I had a better army, better upgrades, and lost because of a PF in the middle of the map. Yeah, I should have known better than to attack, but an expansion being untouchable for such little cost seems like bullshit to me.
And while I'm at it, why the hell did they remove flux vanes? Now that I think about it, was it really that OP? Were we really seeing people abuse VR speed left and right? It had already been nerfed once. But no, I guess having any toss units other than the phoenix that didn't move like it was stuck in molasses would ruin the whole game.
they're really not that good. stalkers wreck them, immortals wreck them, void rays wreck them
Think of a PF as a really big siege tank. With armor. And repairs. Why would you engage on a PF. Engaging there is the equivalent of a bio ball fighting in a choke against colloxen/storms.
Also, VRs were that bad. Flux vanes meant impossible to kill VRs.
The real question is why aren't more zergs playing sheth's style?
Ah, but it's not a sample size of 1! The sample size is his games. It's simply a dimension of 1.