The other option is to just walk behind the mineral line and shoot the SCVs. Or plink away at it with Colossi, wasting both mining time and repair money. Or just psi storm all the SCVs repairing it. Sure, they're dangerous with an army nearby, but so is a Protoss base with a few cannons and an army nearby. And that doesn't take any gas or eliminate potential mules/scans.
Not saying PFs aren't good mind you. But they're certainly beatable and present a trade-off economically for the Terran.
A planetary fortress is no better than a network of cannons, and spending a thousand or so minerals lategame as Protoss is pretty trivial. There's no real comparison directly. Terran doesn't have warp-in, for example, or any non-PF ground based Defense.
PF is our only no-food defensive option. We also don't have warp-ins, and our army is significantly less mobile than Zerg, especially on creep, so unless we leave food behind in bunkers at all our bases (thus crippling our army) it's all we have to not die.
PFs are no more ridiculous than being able to make a bunch of units right where you need them all of a sudden. Apples to oranges.
yeah, i'm just venting, i don't really mean to suggest PFs should be removed, they're just annoying as all hell.
it does annoy me that flux vanes was removed though. from what i remember, it was more broken from a team game standpoint, yeah? even if speed upgraded VRs were hard to kill, tough shit, so what? oh, your vikings need to be near your marines now? gotta keep an eye on that hit and run harass? sounds like shit toss has to deal with regularly.
edit: more than anything, I feel like it just limited gameplay without good cause. toss has nothing that's mobile except phoenixes or maybe warp prisms (which are tough to make cost effective since you lose so many units).
Guek on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
terran pisses me off so much. it feels like they get tons of awesome shit for no apparent reason.
I lost a game earlier today because of a PF. when a PF has an army near by, that expansion feels damn well impossible to take down, and that's just bullshit. I had a better army, better upgrades, and lost because of a PF in the middle of the map. Yeah, I should have known better than to attack, but an expansion being untouchable for such little cost seems like bullshit to me.
And while I'm at it, why the hell did they remove flux vanes? Now that I think about it, was it really that OP? Were we really seeing people abuse VR speed left and right? It had already been nerfed once. But no, I guess having any toss units other than the phoenix that didn't move like it was stuck in molasses would ruin the whole game.
Stalkers are faster than every single Terran unit except Hellions. Stimmed Marines and Marauders move at the same speed but don't have a teleport. Chargelots are only slightly slower than stimmed marines and marauders. DTs are just barely slower than stimmed marines and marauders, as are archons.
This notion that "Protoss is the most immobile army" needs some serious rethinking. Until you have to pack your colossi, move them, and then unpack them so they can shoot, I'm pretty sure you won't be as immobile as a terran using tanks.
And while the bioball is mobile, the protoss ball is more or less as mobile. Yeah, you can't stim to get somewhere really fast, but chargelots and stalkers are pretty quick and Colossi can ignore terrain.
EDIT re: Flux Vanes: As far as I can tell, they were removed because Zerg had an impossibly hard time dealing with them bouncing around everywhere.
It wasn't contrived. But he attacked it with a very math major mentality. My math major friends argue the same way.
It's perfectly logically sound, it just doesn't make sense to the rest of us because it's often such a highly precise viewpoint that it has little bearing on reality.
The problem is that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. It can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.
Like, "I think Y happens because of X." So you investigate variations of X and see what effect it has on Y.
Except to change X, you realize that either has an effect on Z or you need to change Z to change X which also seems to affect Y, so now all you know is that it looks like both X and Z affect Y but you aren't even sure of that anymore.
Which is part of the reason, I think, that Day9 doesn't like to talk about "balance": there are SO MANY factors that influence so many different parts of the game, that it's simply ignorant to say the game is imbalanced. If it was something egregious like you can do this build two minutes into the game and you never lose, then yeah, but when you're talking about games that can last anywhere from five minutes to two hours and there are different builds and decisions to make every step of the way, it is intellectually dishonest to say you know for a fact the game is imbalanced, most of the time.
I agree. Doesn't Sheth have like a 70+ % winrate v P? And he plays some damn good Protoss. That doesn't smack of ZvP IS TOTALLY BROKED to me.
Sample sizes of 1 are meaningless. :E
Ah, but it's not a sample size of 1! The sample size is his games. It's simply a dimension of 1.
Right, but he could just be really good, or be playing against bad opponents. Just because I could always beat Joe doesn't mean PvZ is broken.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Chalk me up as another one getting tired of the complaining from Zerg. Ever since the smart Zergs realised that roach/hydra/corrupter isn't actually a good unit composition and stopped trying to out-deathball Protoss, Zergs all over the place have been tearing protoss apart with constant roach pressure and later on, infestors. Your complaints are baseless, your attitude counterproductive at best and pathetic at worst, and you should be emulating players like Mondragon, Sheth, and Spanishiwa, and not players like Idra.
Chalk me up as another one getting tired of the complaining from Zerg. Ever since the smart Zergs realised that roach/hydra/corrupter isn't actually a good unit composition and stopped trying to out-deathball Protoss, Zergs all over the place have been tearing protoss apart with constant roach pressure and later on, infestors. Your complaints are baseless, your attitude counterproductive at best and pathetic at worst, and you should be emulating players like Mondragon, Sheth, and Spanishiwa, and not players like Idra.
stimming to get somewhere also isn't the best of ideas, more of an 'oh shit' type thing
Pretty much this. Not to mention that Ghosts, Vikings, and Medivacs are slower than stimmed Marines/Marauders, so keeping your army together will result in a slower Terran ball.
stimming to get somewhere also isn't the best of ideas, more of an 'oh shit' type thing
meh, if you have more than a couple medivacs its really not a risk. maybe if the medivacs have like zero energy
Medivacs run out of energy so fast when you start stimming a decent-sized ball. You will have 0-energy medivacs very quickly playing like that. It's not a realistic option most of the time.
stimming to get somewhere also isn't the best of ideas, more of an 'oh shit' type thing
meh, if you have more than a couple medivacs its really not a risk. maybe if the medivacs have like zero energy
Medivacs run out of energy so fast when you start stimming a decent-sized ball. You will have 0-energy medivacs very quickly playing like that. It's not a realistic option most of the time.
[jokepost]Research the Medivac energy upgrade[/jokepost]
stimming to get somewhere also isn't the best of ideas, more of an 'oh shit' type thing
meh, if you have more than a couple medivacs its really not a risk. maybe if the medivacs have like zero energy
Medivacs run out of energy so fast when you start stimming a decent-sized ball. You will have 0-energy medivacs very quickly playing like that. It's not a realistic option most of the time.
[jokepost]Research the Medivac energy upgrade[/jokepost]
Pffft, I already did that when I was faking a cloak upgrade but then forgot to cancel it because Terran has infinity moneys anyway. Learn2Terran, Gawd!
stimming to get somewhere also isn't the best of ideas, more of an 'oh shit' type thing
meh, if you have more than a couple medivacs its really not a risk. maybe if the medivacs have like zero energy
Medivacs run out of energy so fast when you start stimming a decent-sized ball. You will have 0-energy medivacs very quickly playing like that. It's not a realistic option most of the time.
I dunno, it seems like people stim to get quickly from place to place all the time and it rarely makes their units less viable. Also, you make it seem like stimming sucks medivacs dry but terran players always stim before engaging and their medivacs seem to be able to keep up and stay useful just fine.
I fully admit though that I don't play terran all that much so this is just from what I've seen and not from first hand play. It seems a bit different from what you're describing in my experience.
Guek on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
stimming to get somewhere also isn't the best of ideas, more of an 'oh shit' type thing
meh, if you have more than a couple medivacs its really not a risk. maybe if the medivacs have like zero energy
Medivacs run out of energy so fast when you start stimming a decent-sized ball. You will have 0-energy medivacs very quickly playing like that. It's not a realistic option most of the time.
I dunno, it seems like people stim to get quickly from place to place all the time and it rarely makes their units less viable. Also, you make it seem like stimming sucks medivacs dry but terran players always stim before engaging and their medivacs seem to be able to keep up and stay useful just fine.
I fully admit though that I don't play terran all that much so this is just from what I've seen and not from first hand play. It seems a bit different from what you're describing in my experience.
Well if you're running around stimmed, it makes them low before the battle starts. Stimming and then running it does drain them, but the idea is that they've saved up a lot of energy by that point.
stimming to get somewhere also isn't the best of ideas, more of an 'oh shit' type thing
meh, if you have more than a couple medivacs its really not a risk. maybe if the medivacs have like zero energy
Medivacs run out of energy so fast when you start stimming a decent-sized ball. You will have 0-energy medivacs very quickly playing like that. It's not a realistic option most of the time.
I dunno, it seems like people stim to get quickly from place to place all the time and it rarely makes their units less viable. Also, you make it seem like stimming sucks medivacs dry but terran players always stim before engaging and their medivacs seem to be able to keep up and stay useful just fine.
I fully admit though that I don't play terran all that much so this is just from what I've seen and not from first hand play. It seems a bit different from what you're describing in my experience.
Well if you're running around stimmed, it makes them low before the battle starts. Stimming and then running it does drain them, but the idea is that they've saved up a lot of energy by that point.
well yeah, I'm not saying marines should stim every time they need to get to the shitter or something, just that stimming in reaction to harass or in order to move quickly in order to meet combatants isn't some kind of huge risk
Chalk me up as another one getting tired of the complaining from Zerg. Ever since the smart Zergs realised that roach/hydra/corrupter isn't actually a good unit composition and stopped trying to out-deathball Protoss, Zergs all over the place have been tearing protoss apart with constant roach pressure and later on, infestors. Your complaints are baseless, your attitude counterproductive at best and pathetic at worst, and you should be emulating players like Mondragon, Sheth, and Spanishiwa, and not players like Idra.
Can we start a repository of PvZ replays where infestors actually pick apart a deathball. I really think the utility of that buff was seen mostly in ZvT and ZvZ but people often point them out as a ZvP savior. Infestors high priority and the large size of gateway units makes fungals notoriously hard to employ.
Walk in range of a collosus and you have hundreds of vespene smoking in a crater, miscalculate the eight fungals you need to drop a chunk of stalkers and they retreat and regenerate back four fungals worth of shields.
Honestly I'd love to see some replays of game turning ZvP infestor usage versus a deathball, and not a late six gate, stargate opening or probe line.
redraptor on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
I must say I think we'd see a lot more medivac energy upgrades being researched if it could be done somewhere besides a starport techlab. The opportunity cost of using a techlab rather than a reactor is too high for what the upgrade gives you, especially since medivacs running out of energy or being thrown into battle immediately after completion is a rare occurrence.
IdrA didn't even know the range of Fungal when he talked about it on SotG, so I'd wager that he hasn't tried them as much as you would need to see if they're definitely not worth it.
His Corkiness on
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
haven't you guys watched the 10 million times artosis has ripped on terrans for stimming their whole army to deal with harass? it's not worth it then, let alone just moving about.
you can say it doesn't mean as much at a lower level and that's true but it's still not something you want to be doing.
and anyway, the toss is probably trying to pick off medivacs and forcing vikings so the value of each bit of energy is that much higher
Chalk me up as another one getting tired of the complaining from Zerg. Ever since the smart Zergs realised that roach/hydra/corrupter isn't actually a good unit composition and stopped trying to out-deathball Protoss, Zergs all over the place have been tearing protoss apart with constant roach pressure and later on, infestors. Your complaints are baseless, your attitude counterproductive at best and pathetic at worst, and you should be emulating players like Mondragon, Sheth, and Spanishiwa, and not players like Idra.
Can we start a repository of PvZ replays where infestors actually pick apart a deathball. I really think the utility of that buff was seen mostly in ZvT and ZvZ but people often point them out as a ZvP savior. Infestors high priority and the large size of gateway units makes fungals notoriously hard to employ.
Walk in range of a collosus and you have hundreds of vespene smoking in a crater, miscalculate the eight fungals you need to drop a chunk of stalkers and its retreat and regenerate back four fungals worth of shields.
Honestly I'd love to see some replays of game turning ZvP infestor usage versus a deathball, and not a late six gate, stargate opening or probe line.
As I understand it and as i've seem it used against me, the fungals are mostly for softening them then either rolling banelings in or getting a huge concave with roaches while the protoss ball is unable to spread out into a concave of its own.
Chalk me up as another one getting tired of the complaining from Zerg. Ever since the smart Zergs realised that roach/hydra/corrupter isn't actually a good unit composition and stopped trying to out-deathball Protoss, Zergs all over the place have been tearing protoss apart with constant roach pressure and later on, infestors. Your complaints are baseless, your attitude counterproductive at best and pathetic at worst, and you should be emulating players like Mondragon, Sheth, and Spanishiwa, and not players like Idra.
Can we start a repository of PvZ replays where infestors actually pick apart a deathball. I really think the utility of that buff was seen mostly in ZvT and ZvZ but people often point them out as a ZvP savior. Infestors high priority and the large size of gateway units makes fungals notoriously hard to employ.
Walk in range of a collosus and you have hundreds of vespene smoking in a crater, miscalculate the eight fungals you need to drop a chunk of stalkers and its retreat and regenerate back four fungals worth of shields.
Honestly I'd love to see some replays of game turning ZvP infestor usage versus a deathball, and not a late six gate, stargate opening or probe line.
As I understand it and as i've seem it used against me, the fungals are mostly for softening them then either rolling banelings in or getting a huge concave with roaches while the protoss ball is unable to spread out into a concave of its own.
this is how it's been used effectively against me.
I don't even know if that's current because the dps utility of fungal far outweighs the movement constriction since the change.
The problem with using banelings to flank and what not is by the time the three or four collosus push occurs you have spent a fortune of gas on overlord speed, drop, infestor energy, banelings, ground upgrades, roaches, infestors.
After that your attack is very discrete and if it misfires by just a hair and a bit of the ball survives the next reinforcement is basically zerglings or a handful of roach while hes grabbing more stalkers and the next collosus catches up.
Then you need time to morph banelings and get more fungals working up, meanwhile your third is getting sacked and shields are regenerating. Then protoss flees and giggles since overcoming the economic deficit at that point is a herculean task.
I'm curious about replays because I think the map specifics of it, are more important than discussed. For example on Xel Naga the only really large places to engage like that are outside his natural or your own. Otherwise they are sticking up against the crater or walls and forcefielding your banelings out of the picture.
You don't want to fight at his natural because they can just use their architecture to crush it. Fighting on your natural leads to them taking your third base since you can't assemble another force quick enough due to the non-centralized production of hatcheries and the lengthy rebuild time of banelings relevant to gateway warp in.
redraptor on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Which is why current successful Zerg Vs Protoss is all about keeping the protoss constantly reeling and dashing around his base fending off roach task forces. See idra vs kiwikaki in the ipl finals.
Dhalphir on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Which is why current successful Zerg Vs Protoss is all about keeping the protoss constantly reeling and dashing around his base fending off roach task forces. See idra vs kiwikaki in the ipl finals.
Dhal, didn't you hear IdrA? That's because kiwikaki is actually bad. Come on now.
Guys can we stop talking about balance in terrible ways. There are way to many generalizations, to many completely subjective "facts" and way to much anecdotal evidence.
Chalk me up as another one getting tired of the complaining from Zerg. Ever since the smart Zergs realised that roach/hydra/corrupter isn't actually a good unit composition and stopped trying to out-deathball Protoss, Zergs all over the place have been tearing protoss apart with constant roach pressure and later on, infestors. Your complaints are baseless, your attitude counterproductive at best and pathetic at worst, and you should be emulating players like Mondragon, Sheth, and Spanishiwa, and not players like Idra.
IdrA wins, the other players you listed don't (Sheth's record is him playing small online cups constantly for $25).
That's not even the relevant point though. Are you actually listening to what he's saying? It kills me to see people whine so much about whining when they don't even know what the fuck people are whining about. When was the last time you saw IdrA "trying to out-deathball" a Protoss player? If you're going to bitch, know what you're bitching about please
Also, nobody has asked me for a WFC game this week
Would Banshees have been better than BCs here? He's only on 3 base
Chalk me up as another one getting tired of the complaining from Zerg. Ever since the smart Zergs realised that roach/hydra/corrupter isn't actually a good unit composition and stopped trying to out-deathball Protoss, Zergs all over the place have been tearing protoss apart with constant roach pressure and later on, infestors. Your complaints are baseless, your attitude counterproductive at best and pathetic at worst, and you should be emulating players like Mondragon, Sheth, and Spanishiwa, and not players like Idra.
IdrA wins, the other players you listed don't (Sheth's record is him playing small online cups constantly for $25).
That's not even the relevant point though. Are you actually listening to what he's saying? It kills me to see people whine so much about whining when they don't even know what the fuck people are whining about. When was the last time you saw IdrA "trying to out-deathball" a Protoss player? If you're going to bitch, know what you're bitching about please
Also, nobody has asked me for a WFC game this week
Chalk me up as another one getting tired of the complaining from Zerg. Ever since the smart Zergs realised that roach/hydra/corrupter isn't actually a good unit composition and stopped trying to out-deathball Protoss, Zergs all over the place have been tearing protoss apart with constant roach pressure and later on, infestors. Your complaints are baseless, your attitude counterproductive at best and pathetic at worst, and you should be emulating players like Mondragon, Sheth, and Spanishiwa, and not players like Idra.
IdrA wins, the other players you listed don't (Sheth's record is him playing small online cups constantly for $25).
That's not even the relevant point though. Are you actually listening to what he's saying? It kills me to see people whine so much about whining when they don't even know what the fuck people are whining about. When was the last time you saw IdrA "trying to out-deathball" a Protoss player? If you're going to bitch, know what you're bitching about please
Totally agree with this. And honestly? I'm pretty sure there is bitching from every single fucking race in this thread, not just zerg.
I do my best to make sure the quota of protoss bitching i filled!
I could link the replays where I lose to mass fungal, and the one where I lose to mass neural+banelings. But in both of those cases it's pretty much me losing to a superior econ since I didn't bother harassing early on :P.
Posts
Not saying PFs aren't good mind you. But they're certainly beatable and present a trade-off economically for the Terran.
Edit: Beat'd by Dhal.
PF is our only no-food defensive option. We also don't have warp-ins, and our army is significantly less mobile than Zerg, especially on creep, so unless we leave food behind in bunkers at all our bases (thus crippling our army) it's all we have to not die.
PFs are no more ridiculous than being able to make a bunch of units right where you need them all of a sudden. Apples to oranges.
it does annoy me that flux vanes was removed though. from what i remember, it was more broken from a team game standpoint, yeah? even if speed upgraded VRs were hard to kill, tough shit, so what? oh, your vikings need to be near your marines now? gotta keep an eye on that hit and run harass? sounds like shit toss has to deal with regularly.
edit: more than anything, I feel like it just limited gameplay without good cause. toss has nothing that's mobile except phoenixes or maybe warp prisms (which are tough to make cost effective since you lose so many units).
Stalkers are faster than every single Terran unit except Hellions. Stimmed Marines and Marauders move at the same speed but don't have a teleport. Chargelots are only slightly slower than stimmed marines and marauders. DTs are just barely slower than stimmed marines and marauders, as are archons.
This notion that "Protoss is the most immobile army" needs some serious rethinking. Until you have to pack your colossi, move them, and then unpack them so they can shoot, I'm pretty sure you won't be as immobile as a terran using tanks.
And while the bioball is mobile, the protoss ball is more or less as mobile. Yeah, you can't stim to get somewhere really fast, but chargelots and stalkers are pretty quick and Colossi can ignore terrain.
EDIT re: Flux Vanes: As far as I can tell, they were removed because Zerg had an impossibly hard time dealing with them bouncing around everywhere.
Right, but he could just be really good, or be playing against bad opponents. Just because I could always beat Joe doesn't mean PvZ is broken.
Sorry, but the Terran bio army is way more mobile than people give it credit for, especially with Medivacs floating over their heads.
Wow, I can't do math. Somehow I added 2.25 and 1.125 and got 3 o_O
I just...uh...yeah.
Feel free to ignore that post.
meh, if you have more than a couple medivacs its really not a risk. maybe if the medivacs have like zero energy
why? they have the same range as upgraded hydras and a couple queens can hold off quite a few. mutas also wreck their shit
Pretty much this. Not to mention that Ghosts, Vikings, and Medivacs are slower than stimmed Marines/Marauders, so keeping your army together will result in a slower Terran ball.
Medivacs run out of energy so fast when you start stimming a decent-sized ball. You will have 0-energy medivacs very quickly playing like that. It's not a realistic option most of the time.
Not saying I agree or disagree, just stating that that's what I remember the rationale being.
Pffft, I already did that when I was faking a cloak upgrade but then forgot to cancel it because Terran has infinity moneys anyway. Learn2Terran, Gawd!
I dunno, it seems like people stim to get quickly from place to place all the time and it rarely makes their units less viable. Also, you make it seem like stimming sucks medivacs dry but terran players always stim before engaging and their medivacs seem to be able to keep up and stay useful just fine.
I fully admit though that I don't play terran all that much so this is just from what I've seen and not from first hand play. It seems a bit different from what you're describing in my experience.
Well if you're running around stimmed, it makes them low before the battle starts. Stimming and then running it does drain them, but the idea is that they've saved up a lot of energy by that point.
well yeah, I'm not saying marines should stim every time they need to get to the shitter or something, just that stimming in reaction to harass or in order to move quickly in order to meet combatants isn't some kind of huge risk
Can we start a repository of PvZ replays where infestors actually pick apart a deathball. I really think the utility of that buff was seen mostly in ZvT and ZvZ but people often point them out as a ZvP savior. Infestors high priority and the large size of gateway units makes fungals notoriously hard to employ.
Walk in range of a collosus and you have hundreds of vespene smoking in a crater, miscalculate the eight fungals you need to drop a chunk of stalkers and they retreat and regenerate back four fungals worth of shields.
Honestly I'd love to see some replays of game turning ZvP infestor usage versus a deathball, and not a late six gate, stargate opening or probe line.
you can say it doesn't mean as much at a lower level and that's true but it's still not something you want to be doing.
and anyway, the toss is probably trying to pick off medivacs and forcing vikings so the value of each bit of energy is that much higher
As I understand it and as i've seem it used against me, the fungals are mostly for softening them then either rolling banelings in or getting a huge concave with roaches while the protoss ball is unable to spread out into a concave of its own.
this is how it's been used effectively against me.
i dislike seeing how often and how effective getting at least 1 of 90% of terran units and how fast and easy it is
would much rather the academy, science facility tech routes
The problem with using banelings to flank and what not is by the time the three or four collosus push occurs you have spent a fortune of gas on overlord speed, drop, infestor energy, banelings, ground upgrades, roaches, infestors.
After that your attack is very discrete and if it misfires by just a hair and a bit of the ball survives the next reinforcement is basically zerglings or a handful of roach while hes grabbing more stalkers and the next collosus catches up.
Then you need time to morph banelings and get more fungals working up, meanwhile your third is getting sacked and shields are regenerating. Then protoss flees and giggles since overcoming the economic deficit at that point is a herculean task.
I'm curious about replays because I think the map specifics of it, are more important than discussed. For example on Xel Naga the only really large places to engage like that are outside his natural or your own. Otherwise they are sticking up against the crater or walls and forcefielding your banelings out of the picture.
You don't want to fight at his natural because they can just use their architecture to crush it. Fighting on your natural leads to them taking your third base since you can't assemble another force quick enough due to the non-centralized production of hatcheries and the lengthy rebuild time of banelings relevant to gateway warp in.
Dhal, didn't you hear IdrA? That's because kiwikaki is actually bad. Come on now.
IdrA wins, the other players you listed don't (Sheth's record is him playing small online cups constantly for $25).
That's not even the relevant point though. Are you actually listening to what he's saying? It kills me to see people whine so much about whining when they don't even know what the fuck people are whining about. When was the last time you saw IdrA "trying to out-deathball" a Protoss player? If you're going to bitch, know what you're bitching about please
Also, nobody has asked me for a WFC game this week
Would Banshees have been better than BCs here? He's only on 3 base
you're too good :P
Totally agree with this. And honestly? I'm pretty sure there is bitching from every single fucking race in this thread, not just zerg.
i'm gonna lap all the knowledge he dispenses next week and be better than all of you guys
I could link the replays where I lose to mass fungal, and the one where I lose to mass neural+banelings. But in both of those cases it's pretty much me losing to a superior econ since I didn't bother harassing early on :P.