And my casual dip into arty still makes me think the entire arty system is really stupid. I've got an SU-5 now, with it's 152mm gun. So, yeah. A) why does it deal nowhere near the damage the 152mm HE lobber on the KV does, and the current arty matchmaking puts your arty with things it just can't hurt. From a top down back of the hull shot for 10% damage because it's a heavy four tiers over you. Sigh.
The SU-5 just plain sucks. If you can, push on through straight to the SU-8. The 152mm gun on it does significantly more damage - as much as the KV's derpgun.
And my casual dip into arty still makes me think the entire arty system is really stupid. I've got an SU-5 now, with it's 152mm gun. So, yeah. A) why does it deal nowhere near the damage the 152mm HE lobber on the KV does, and the current arty matchmaking puts your arty with things it just can't hurt. From a top down back of the hull shot for 10% damage because it's a heavy four tiers over you. Sigh.
The SU-5 just plain sucks. If you can, push on through straight to the SU-8. The 152mm gun on it does significantly more damage - as much as the KV's derpgun.
It goes without saying that not all Soviet 152 mm guns are equal--like, literally, they don't all fire the same shells. The same for Soviet 76 mm guns on the T-34 and T-34-85. or the German 7.5 cm guns.
Yup, the SU-5 is pretty miserable. The SU-8 is much better - longer range, much more powerful, larger ammo capacity. It's less accurate, unfortunately, but the other advantages more than make up for that.
Of course, it's also true that arty just isn't suited to everyone's taste. If you don't enjoy it, don't play it!
Supraluminal on
0
Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
The fact that the second gun on the Wespe can fire armor piercing shells kinda opens up a hell of a lot of options for the risk seeking player (read: me). A 105mm armor piercing shell will ruin pretty much anyone's day in the range a tier 3 artillery will fight, and in direct fire mode even a SPG is fairly accurate. Provided you don't get blown up by a stray harsh look in the meantime.
The devs have talked vaguely about a "hardcore" mode in the past, but I doubt we'll see it any time remotely soon (if ever). They've got enough work to do with the game as it stands without adding a whole new set of rules and game mechanics to balance.
Just picked up my stug last night, do I go L/70 or the 105. The only reason I consider the mini derp is that it seems like the penetration on the 70 won't do much on t6+ which I seem to encounter a lot in the battles I've run with it so far. That and its damage seems pretty low, but it could also just be because I was spoiled by the 107 in t5 matches with the kv.
Just picked up my stug last night, do I go L/70 or the 105. The only reason I consider the mini derp is that it seems like the penetration on the 70 won't do much on t6+ which I seem to encounter a lot in the battles I've run with it so far. That and its damage seems pretty low, but it could also just be because I was spoiled by the 107 in t5 matches with the kv.
I prefer the 75mm L/70. Just bring some HE rounds for those occasions where you can't penetrate your targets. 138mm of penetration is good for a T5 vehicle, though; it should be enough most of the time. Even facing T6 enemies, the KV-3 is the only thing that should give you substantial trouble at range.
As always, aim for side/rear armor, and weak spots like hatches and machine-gun ports. Also, don't hesitate to use the StuG's fairly good mobility to your advantage - avoid enemies that totally outclass you, and chase down targets that you have a good chance of hurting.
Edit: A word of warning - if you aren't happy with the penetration on the StuG, you're going to be sorely disappointed by the JagdPz IV. The same 75mm L/70 is the highest-penetration gun it can mount! The only "upgrade" it gets is more of a sidegrade - the short 88mm, which does a good bit more damage at the cost of accuracy and a small amount of penetration.
Ok, maybe it's just frustration but it seems I'm always running in much higher tier battles and if my 107 is having problems with even the side armor of those lowes and king tigers, blerg. I'll give it a shot though. Maybe I'll just have to avoid the usual advancing lanes of heavies and stick to the lanes mediums utilize more.
Ok, maybe it's just frustration but it seems I'm always running in much higher tier battles and if my 107 is having problems with even the side armor of those lowes and king tigers, blerg. I'll give it a shot though. Maybe I'll just have to avoid the usual advancing lanes of heavies and stick to the lanes mediums utilize more.
Errr... the 107 should brutalize a KT or Lowe from the side. The KT's side armor is 80mm, I think the Lowe is the same. You'd have to be hitting them at a pretty steep angle or very long range to get a bounce.
You'll also randomly hit the turret at long range, which will probably be facing the fight. I've bounced pretty large rounds off a bad angle hit on a 34-85's turret, and those are made of paper.
You'll also randomly hit the turret at long range, which will probably be facing the fight. I've bounced pretty large rounds off a bad angle hit on a 34-85's turret, and those are made of paper.
Actually, the T-34-85's upgraded turret is really good for its tier - 115mm on the front, 90 on the sides. So yeah, a bad angle and/or low penetration roll can lead to a bounce even for relatively powerful guns.
While we're on the subject, it's also important to be aware that penetration drops off with range, to approximately 80% of maximum at 500m. That, combined with the 25% random variance of every shot, can lead to some very unexpected bounces, even on otherwise good hits at a minimal angle.
You'll also randomly hit the turret at long range, which will probably be facing the fight. I've bounced pretty large rounds off a bad angle hit on a 34-85's turret, and those are made of paper.
Actually, the T-34-85's upgraded turret is really good for its tier - 115mm on the front, 90 on the sides. So yeah, a bad angle and/or low penetration roll can lead to a bounce even for relatively powerful guns.
While we're on the subject, it's also important to be aware that penetration drops off with range, to approximately 80% of maximum at 500m. That, combined with the 25% random variance of every shot, can lead to some very unexpected bounces, even on otherwise good hits at a minimal angle.
Yeah I think there are often a lot of factors (in real battles) that lessen the theoretical penetration which we just have to deal with. Hence a lot of bounces even with the 107. I always aim for the side undercarriage of the tanks if I can but almost everyone at that level knows about angling so almost all the shots are coming in at least a 30 degree angle. And since the Kv-3 is such a slow beast, I'm usually towards the back of the pack plinking away from 300-400+ meters.
Should I go for those frontal armor shots if the side is at some magic number of degrees turned instead? What do you guys do?
Depending on how much I think I win the pen vs armor wars, I'll take a frontal shot.
If I have a slow as shit reloading weapon, I won't waste the shot on a possible hit, though. But say, an 85mm on my KV13? I'm going to fire that pretty much every time it's loaded, because there is very little cost to opening fire. My IS and it's 122, however, will only fire when I'm 80-90% confident of a hit and damage.
Of course, sometimes that's tossing out a 1,000 credit 122mm shell that tracks a PzIIIa for no damage
Well shit, I just bought a new garage slot two days ago. Booo. Oh well, I guess saving 75 cents or whatever isn't a huge deal. And maybe I should get one or two more, just in case I need them later....
Kinda tempted by the Ram-II. I already have the M4A2E4 though; not sure I really need another premium tank of the exact same tier and type.
Depending on how much I think I win the pen vs armor wars, I'll take a frontal shot.
If I have a slow as shit reloading weapon, I won't waste the shot on a possible hit, though. But say, an 85mm on my KV13? I'm going to fire that pretty much every time it's loaded, because there is very little cost to opening fire. My IS and it's 122, however, will only fire when I'm 80-90% confident of a hit and damage.
Of course, sometimes that's tossing out a 1,000 credit 122mm shell that tracks a PzIIIa for no damage
I feel roughly the same way, though I'm somewhat more willing to risk a questionable shot with a big/slow-loading/expensive round. One good hit with your 1k-per-shot 122mm will more than pay for a couple of misses; it's penny-wise and pound-foolish to be really picky about your shots. I'm more concerned about the tactical cost of having to reload, and more often than not if you've got a bigass gun you're playing peekaboo anyway (apologies to those of you who dislike that term, but it's convenient :P) so it's not a huge deal.
To theorycraft a little bit on the question of taking side vs. front shots, let's consider the case of the 107mm vs. a KT at 500m, facing you at a 30 degree angle (meaning more frontally than sideways):
107's avg. pen at 100m: 167mm
KT's side armor: 80mm
107's possible range of penetration at 500m, accounting for random variation: 167 * .8 * .75 = 100.2; 167 *.8 * 1.25 = 167. So 100.2mm up to the nominal average of 167mm. Actual average is 133.6mm.
KT's line-of-sight side armor thickness, assuming 60 degree angle of incidence for the shot and deducting the ~10 degree impact "normalization" effect: 80 / cos(60 - 10) = 124.5mm.
If the KT is facing you more squarely, say a 20 degree angle: 80 / cos(70 - 10) = 160mm.
So, you have a better-than-average chance of penetrating the side armor at a fairly steep 30 degree angle, even at long range. The LOS armor thickness increases rapidly at angles below 30 degrees, though, so you just have to do your best to judge the angle. Lots of experience with a specific gun against various targets will help make it a fairly instinctual process.
The KT's upper front armor is 150mm, sloped at 50 degrees for an LOS thickness of 195.8mm, so don't even bother at long range. It's worth a shot at the lower glacis plate (100mm at the same angle, so 130.5mm LOS) if you have a clear view of it at a good angle, though the 107's mediocre accuracy means it'll be hard to hit. At closer ranges, you might get lucky with a really squarely-placed shot to the front, so take it if that's all you've got. Aim for the lower plate if you can, of course - or load HE rounds, or move for a flanking shot, or run away! These are all valid options, and which one is best will depend on the tactical situation.
Edit: Whoops, misread the Wikipedia Tiger II article; it gives armor slope from the horizontal, not vertical. Updated the above paragraph to reflect the extra 10 degrees of slope.
Add: Bastables
for glorious cavalry charges on iron horses!
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
I might have to buy one once I'm done with the majority of my grind and no longer want to pay for premium for the XP bonus. It sticks in my craw to pay $30 for a virtual tank, but by all accounts it'd keep me rolling in dough to support my T-54 habit. And at least it's a one-time cost.
It's conceivable that I'll be able to break even with the T-54, though. I think I might be managing what would be, on average, a small profit without premium on the T-44, and I remember the T-54 being roughly comparable to the T-44's profitability during the beta. More expensive to repair and way more expensive to rearm, but higher gross income too.
I might have to buy one once I'm done with the majority of my grind and no longer want to pay for premium for the XP bonus. It sticks in my craw to pay $30 for a virtual tank, but by all accounts it'd keep me rolling in dough to support my T-54 habit. And at least it's a one-time cost.
It's conceivable that I'll be able to break even with the T-54, though. I think I might be managing what would be, on average, a small profit without premium on the T-44, and I remember the T-54 being roughly comparable to the T-44's profitability during the beta. More expensive to repair and way more expensive to rearm, but higher gross income too.
You make a good point about essentially having 'premium for life.' If you think about it, one time $30 fee and you have a tank that is by all accounts enjoyable to play, gives you great credits, and since it's instantly elite it shouldn't be too hard to max out your crew, and afford the best mountables. I mean if it's making what I hear it's making, it's conceivable that it might be worth it to continue to use the credit based consumables on a routine basis.
Speaking of consumables and mountables, do any of you use them, and if so, which ones? I've considered getting the three that you can move around between tanks as I get the cash, and possibly the non-movable ones for which ever tanks I eventually keep around to be the money makers. So far though, the credit requirement seems pretty steep, so I've held off.
There's no reason not to have credit consumables from tier 5 on; just be careful not to use them unless they can actually rescue you long enough to make more xp and credits. The repair kit and fire extinguisher especially can save you from the stupidest deaths. The engine power-boosting items are probably useful for skilled players, but I am a boring person and bring first aid kits I hardly ever use instead.
Mountable equipment is probably not worth it until at least tier 5 unless you're planning to keep a tank forever, and even then it's good to be discerning unless you're rolling in cash. Vents are good on anything; if you're only going mount one non-removable thing, this is probably it. Rammers are good with any heavy gun. Vent/rammer/spall liner is a pretty standard, well-rounded kind of heavy tank setup. A lot of people love vertical stabilizers, especially on mediums. The gun laying drive can be OK if you can't get a stabilizer, especially if you're rocking a derp gun. Playstyle preference and so on. Camo nets are safe since they're cheap, movable, and always at least a little useful. I don't drive tank destroyers, but supposedly they like their binoculars and maybe camo nets if they're not high tier German TDs and have camo-trained crews, which of course they do. SPGs pretty obviously like anything that makes them load and aim faster: rammer, gun laying drive, vents if possible. Camo nets are fine on those too, especially at lower tiers with lots of fast, suicidal tanks driving by.
Yeah. It's actually pretty funny because there is this major hatred of 'campers' on their official forums. People hate 'campers' because they are not perceived as taking part of the offense, but I find that to be untrue. I normally roll the german tanks, and the guns are as accurate at 300m as the russian derps at 100m. I have a hell of a lot less armor and hps than they do, so it would be retarded of me to stand right next to them in their peekaboo fighting. The thing is, that as a 'camper' I have plenty of time between shooting that I can check the minimap and see just where I can be most useful. Having a TD at the base is much less effective defensively than having a medium there. The medium can aim where ever he pleases without breaking camo, and if need be move to where he is needed faster. There have been plenty of times where me pinning down a corner has turned the tide, allowing our main push to get to their base and score the cap. Most of my deaths come from standing and fighting three or four guys coming down a completely undefended lane, trying to hold them off until somebody comes to re-inforce, or we win.
Note that vertical stabilisers are only available on teir 8 tanks and above, but the +20% to accuracy while moving is worth the price alone - the fact it also works when you're stationary is just a happy bonus. Rammers are quite nice, too, but a somewhat ambiguously useful item. They're most use on a slow firing gun, obviously, but because they're percentage based you get the most out of them on a faster one - +10% to RoF on a gun that only fires 10 times a minute isn't exactly that great. They serve their purpose though if you end up in a duel with someone with a pretty equal tank/gun and they don't have them. It might be a minuscule amount of bonus, but that might be all that's between you surviving the encounter and death.
I tend to think of vents as like a third perk in CoD - useful sure, but don't sweat it if you wanted something else. Use them to fill a slot, basically.
Gun laying drives are entirely playstyle dependant. If you like to hang back and snipe, or use a big gun on a heavy, they'll be fine. Otherwise they're not really worth it. Camo nets are more of the same, but at least everyone can make use of better [strike]cloaking devices[/strike] bush-hiding skills at some stage.
Repair kits aren't that great in my experience, but coupled with a high enough repair skill on your crew you can almost instantly repair a module. Great for if you get tracked, or really need your turret working again to get in the killing shot.
I haven't used anything else, but they're pretty self explanitory really. Suspension for if you don't want to get the actual suspension upgrade and only need a a ton more to the weight limit. Spall liners are good, I guess, but not so useful these days with the inaccuracy of artillery. Wet racks and CO² tanks are entirely tank dependant. Some will get ammo racked every battle, others you might never need them. Binocs and optics are most useful on scouts and TDs, for obvious reasons, but extra view range always helps.
Note though, that these days you can remove the non-removable equipment for 10 gold. Great if you have a little left over.
As for consumables, the gold ones probably aren't worth it these days, and only use a credits one if you don't intend to immediately keel over after use. I found good use of med kits on my VK(DB) in particular, and it wasn't likely to make me go into debt if I used them, but any higher tier and you really need to assess the likelihood of you making the money back. Of course, I'm sure many of you are better players than me and so its not such an issue, but for anyone about as average as me (;-)), take note.
The recent expansion of max vision range from 500m to 700m means that binoculars are good on any tank that has a high vision range, not just tank destroyers. All it takes is roughly three seconds or so of sitting still for its +25% bonus to kick in. Which is often enough for you to kick in someone else's teeth from halfway across the map. On top of that, you don't lose the bonus when you turn the turret -- only when you turn the tracks.
American tanks have early access to vertical stabilizers. Their heavy tanks get stabilizers at tier 7 (T-29); their medium tanks get them at tier 6 (Easy 8).
[Edit]
A REALLY important note about repair kits:
If both of your tracks have been shot off for some reason, using a credit repair kit will only fix one track - leaving you still stuck because of the other one.
I've only ever used the camo net, on my SU-100. I think it was a good investment.
I can't get myself to buy any other mountable though, as they cost 500k credits each and...that's a lot of credits
Maybe one day!
I've found that I have some consumables, that I have no idea where I got them from. I have 5 cokes, 5 chocolates, and 5 combat rations. Never used them though.
I've only ever used the camo net, on my SU-100. I think it was a good investment.
I can't get myself to buy any other mountable though, as they cost 500k credits each and...that's a lot of credits
Maybe one day!
I've found that I have some consumables, that I have no idea where I got them from. I have 5 cokes, 5 chocolates, and 5 combat rations. Never used them though.
Those consumables were free gifts from the devs for some WW2 anniversary. I don't remember. But once you get up to tier 8 you can probably start affording the mounted equipment.
There's no reason not to have credit consumables from tier 5 on; just be careful not to use them unless they can actually rescue you long enough to make more xp and credits. The repair kit and fire extinguisher especially can save you from the stupidest deaths. The engine power-boosting items are probably useful for skilled players, but I am a boring person and bring first aid kits I hardly ever use instead.
Mountable equipment is probably not worth it until at least tier 5 unless you're planning to keep a tank forever, and even then it's good to be discerning unless you're rolling in cash. Vents are good on anything; if you're only going mount one non-removable thing, this is probably it. Rammers are good with any heavy gun. Vent/rammer/spall liner is a pretty standard, well-rounded kind of heavy tank setup. A lot of people love vertical stabilizers, especially on mediums. The gun laying drive can be OK if you can't get a stabilizer, especially if you're rocking a derp gun. Playstyle preference and so on. Camo nets are safe since they're cheap, movable, and always at least a little useful. I don't drive tank destroyers, but supposedly they like their binoculars and maybe camo nets if they're not high tier German TDs and have camo-trained crews, which of course they do. SPGs pretty obviously like anything that makes them load and aim faster: rammer, gun laying drive, vents if possible. Camo nets are fine on those too, especially at lower tiers with lots of fast, suicidal tanks driving by.
This pretty much sums it up for me. I bring three credit consumables on everything I drive: medkit, repair kit, and fire extinguisher. I also use them pretty indiscriminately - I figure if it'll let me get one or two more good shots in, it'll pay for itself (or nearly so, anyway). Maybe without a premium account it'd be a different story. (Gold consumables are way too expensive; maybe I'll use them in clan battles if we get back to doing them.)
As for mountable equipment, yeah, most of it is expensive. I bought a couple of camo nets and some binocs fairly early on since they can be switched around easily, but waited until the T-43 to buy a rammer, optics, and vents. Now that you can demount the "permanent" equipment for 10 gold there's less of a reason to hold off on it, but it still costs an arm and a leg by low/mid tier standards. If you have to choose between buying equipment and saving for a new tank, I suggest the new tank. Unless you have a favorite tier 6 you plan on sticking with for a long time, anyway.
Rammers are quite nice, too, but a somewhat ambiguously useful item. They're most use on a slow firing gun, obviously, but because they're percentage based you get the most out of them on a faster one - +10% to RoF on a gun that only fires 10 times a minute isn't exactly that great. They serve their purpose though if you end up in a duel with someone with a pretty equal tank/gun and they don't have them. It might be a minuscule amount of bonus, but that might be all that's between you surviving the encounter and death.
I think the rammer is roughly equally useful for all types of guns. 10% is 10%, regardless of your exact RoF. It increases your damage output by the same proportion either way, at least assuming you're always firing as soon as you're loaded. So really it depends more on the tactical situation than which specific gun you're using: if you have lots of targets available or are in a duel/dogfight where cover isn't a big factor, you get the full benefit out of it; if you're in a tense peekaboo fight where you can only get a shot off occasionally it's not as helpful. But in my experience, you'll probably end up in both of those situations and many that fall somewhere in between during the course of a single battle, regardless of what you're driving, so why not bring it?
Yeah my highest tier at the moment is 6, and I only get about 10-15k credits per match. Gonna wait till I'm getting 100k per match to go on a tank shopping spree!
Credit consumables have saved my tanks more times than I can remember.
Quickly repairing a track if you get stuck in a kill zone, repairing a damaged gun for sniping again, or bringing back a gunner / loader makes a huge difference.
The gun on the t30 is so slow that during clan matches if any of those critical shooting parts get damaged i'm essentially neutered because I just can't spit out the shells to help stop an is-7 army.
My highest tier tank is my hetzer (about halfway to the stugg) so I haven't really started with consumeables or attaches yet. I'm liking the tds. Arty is fun too, but its taking too damn long to upgrade, and from what I hear the m7 is shit so it'll probably be a while until I actually tier up my artillery. I'm also working my way up the American medium tanks trying to get myself to the heavies, but I suck bad with the medium tanks. I think I'm still on tier 3.
Ok so jadgwanzer is on US server. Downloading US client software. Ok so I'm going to go for T34 and PIII and Panther on my new US client.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Ok will need another invite it seems. I've had to create a new ID for us servers nick is the same as PA's: Bastable.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
What do you want out of medium tanks? This is an important question to ask yourself before you choose a medium line. From experience, Panthers are regulated to long range snipers (to do well) and perform poorly when under attack (especially close range attack). They're fairly slow (for a medium) have the worst hull armor and a huge turret with next to no armor (120 armor huge turret). Though Panthers are good snipers, i didn't sign up to snipe with mine but after awhle you find out thats all they're good at and stick to it.
Where as from what I've seen both US and Russian mediums play more like mediums. They're fast can bounce a good amount of shtos (they have good sloped armor) and are very low profile. They're manuverable and quick. If you want a flanking, shot bouncing, front line, hard hitting medium, russian/US is the way to go. If you want to play support sniper then Panthers are fine at that.
Posts
The SU-5 just plain sucks. If you can, push on through straight to the SU-8. The 152mm gun on it does significantly more damage - as much as the KV's derpgun.
It goes without saying that not all Soviet 152 mm guns are equal--like, literally, they don't all fire the same shells. The same for Soviet 76 mm guns on the T-34 and T-34-85. or the German 7.5 cm guns.
Of course, it's also true that arty just isn't suited to everyone's taste. If you don't enjoy it, don't play it!
Ah figured out why I couldn't join from there before, wasn't logged in. Silly me.
Well thats not completely accurate... with no infantry around the tank commander would pop out of the cupola and spot targets:
But I would like a more restrictive mode. I would probably play it exclusively.
Like a big explosive game of Wack-a-Mole.
Im down.
Also nothing in this world makes me as angry as I get when I pop out of a tank to spot in Red Orchestra and get shot in the face.
I prefer the 75mm L/70. Just bring some HE rounds for those occasions where you can't penetrate your targets. 138mm of penetration is good for a T5 vehicle, though; it should be enough most of the time. Even facing T6 enemies, the KV-3 is the only thing that should give you substantial trouble at range.
As always, aim for side/rear armor, and weak spots like hatches and machine-gun ports. Also, don't hesitate to use the StuG's fairly good mobility to your advantage - avoid enemies that totally outclass you, and chase down targets that you have a good chance of hurting.
Edit: A word of warning - if you aren't happy with the penetration on the StuG, you're going to be sorely disappointed by the JagdPz IV. The same 75mm L/70 is the highest-penetration gun it can mount! The only "upgrade" it gets is more of a sidegrade - the short 88mm, which does a good bit more damage at the cost of accuracy and a small amount of penetration.
Errr... the 107 should brutalize a KT or Lowe from the side. The KT's side armor is 80mm, I think the Lowe is the same. You'd have to be hitting them at a pretty steep angle or very long range to get a bounce.
Actually, the T-34-85's upgraded turret is really good for its tier - 115mm on the front, 90 on the sides. So yeah, a bad angle and/or low penetration roll can lead to a bounce even for relatively powerful guns.
While we're on the subject, it's also important to be aware that penetration drops off with range, to approximately 80% of maximum at 500m. That, combined with the 25% random variance of every shot, can lead to some very unexpected bounces, even on otherwise good hits at a minimal angle.
Yeah I think there are often a lot of factors (in real battles) that lessen the theoretical penetration which we just have to deal with. Hence a lot of bounces even with the 107. I always aim for the side undercarriage of the tanks if I can but almost everyone at that level knows about angling so almost all the shots are coming in at least a 30 degree angle. And since the Kv-3 is such a slow beast, I'm usually towards the back of the pack plinking away from 300-400+ meters.
Should I go for those frontal armor shots if the side is at some magic number of degrees turned instead? What do you guys do?
If I have a slow as shit reloading weapon, I won't waste the shot on a possible hit, though. But say, an 85mm on my KV13? I'm going to fire that pretty much every time it's loaded, because there is very little cost to opening fire. My IS and it's 122, however, will only fire when I'm 80-90% confident of a hit and damage.
Of course, sometimes that's tossing out a 1,000 credit 122mm shell that tracks a PzIIIa for no damage
Steam: Kemlo
Kinda tempted by the Ram-II. I already have the M4A2E4 though; not sure I really need another premium tank of the exact same tier and type.
I feel roughly the same way, though I'm somewhat more willing to risk a questionable shot with a big/slow-loading/expensive round. One good hit with your 1k-per-shot 122mm will more than pay for a couple of misses; it's penny-wise and pound-foolish to be really picky about your shots. I'm more concerned about the tactical cost of having to reload, and more often than not if you've got a bigass gun you're playing peekaboo anyway (apologies to those of you who dislike that term, but it's convenient :P) so it's not a huge deal.
To theorycraft a little bit on the question of taking side vs. front shots, let's consider the case of the 107mm vs. a KT at 500m, facing you at a 30 degree angle (meaning more frontally than sideways):
107's avg. pen at 100m: 167mm
KT's side armor: 80mm
107's possible range of penetration at 500m, accounting for random variation: 167 * .8 * .75 = 100.2; 167 *.8 * 1.25 = 167. So 100.2mm up to the nominal average of 167mm. Actual average is 133.6mm.
KT's line-of-sight side armor thickness, assuming 60 degree angle of incidence for the shot and deducting the ~10 degree impact "normalization" effect: 80 / cos(60 - 10) = 124.5mm.
If the KT is facing you more squarely, say a 20 degree angle: 80 / cos(70 - 10) = 160mm.
So, you have a better-than-average chance of penetrating the side armor at a fairly steep 30 degree angle, even at long range. The LOS armor thickness increases rapidly at angles below 30 degrees, though, so you just have to do your best to judge the angle. Lots of experience with a specific gun against various targets will help make it a fairly instinctual process.
The KT's upper front armor is 150mm, sloped at 50 degrees for an LOS thickness of 195.8mm, so don't even bother at long range. It's worth a shot at the lower glacis plate (100mm at the same angle, so 130.5mm LOS) if you have a clear view of it at a good angle, though the 107's mediocre accuracy means it'll be hard to hit. At closer ranges, you might get lucky with a really squarely-placed shot to the front, so take it if that's all you've got. Aim for the lower plate if you can, of course - or load HE rounds, or move for a flanking shot, or run away! These are all valid options, and which one is best will depend on the tactical situation.
Edit: Whoops, misread the Wikipedia Tiger II article; it gives armor slope from the horizontal, not vertical. Updated the above paragraph to reflect the extra 10 degrees of slope.
for glorious cavalry charges on iron horses!
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
That... is ridiculous.
I might have to buy one once I'm done with the majority of my grind and no longer want to pay for premium for the XP bonus. It sticks in my craw to pay $30 for a virtual tank, but by all accounts it'd keep me rolling in dough to support my T-54 habit. And at least it's a one-time cost.
It's conceivable that I'll be able to break even with the T-54, though. I think I might be managing what would be, on average, a small profit without premium on the T-44, and I remember the T-54 being roughly comparable to the T-44's profitability during the beta. More expensive to repair and way more expensive to rearm, but higher gross income too.
The Lowe is a badass tank. I love using it.
You make a good point about essentially having 'premium for life.' If you think about it, one time $30 fee and you have a tank that is by all accounts enjoyable to play, gives you great credits, and since it's instantly elite it shouldn't be too hard to max out your crew, and afford the best mountables. I mean if it's making what I hear it's making, it's conceivable that it might be worth it to continue to use the credit based consumables on a routine basis.
Speaking of consumables and mountables, do any of you use them, and if so, which ones? I've considered getting the three that you can move around between tanks as I get the cash, and possibly the non-movable ones for which ever tanks I eventually keep around to be the money makers. So far though, the credit requirement seems pretty steep, so I've held off.
Apparently, flanks are things to be ignored.
Mountable equipment is probably not worth it until at least tier 5 unless you're planning to keep a tank forever, and even then it's good to be discerning unless you're rolling in cash. Vents are good on anything; if you're only going mount one non-removable thing, this is probably it. Rammers are good with any heavy gun. Vent/rammer/spall liner is a pretty standard, well-rounded kind of heavy tank setup. A lot of people love vertical stabilizers, especially on mediums. The gun laying drive can be OK if you can't get a stabilizer, especially if you're rocking a derp gun. Playstyle preference and so on. Camo nets are safe since they're cheap, movable, and always at least a little useful. I don't drive tank destroyers, but supposedly they like their binoculars and maybe camo nets if they're not high tier German TDs and have camo-trained crews, which of course they do. SPGs pretty obviously like anything that makes them load and aim faster: rammer, gun laying drive, vents if possible. Camo nets are fine on those too, especially at lower tiers with lots of fast, suicidal tanks driving by.
Yeah. It's actually pretty funny because there is this major hatred of 'campers' on their official forums. People hate 'campers' because they are not perceived as taking part of the offense, but I find that to be untrue. I normally roll the german tanks, and the guns are as accurate at 300m as the russian derps at 100m. I have a hell of a lot less armor and hps than they do, so it would be retarded of me to stand right next to them in their peekaboo fighting. The thing is, that as a 'camper' I have plenty of time between shooting that I can check the minimap and see just where I can be most useful. Having a TD at the base is much less effective defensively than having a medium there. The medium can aim where ever he pleases without breaking camo, and if need be move to where he is needed faster. There have been plenty of times where me pinning down a corner has turned the tide, allowing our main push to get to their base and score the cap. Most of my deaths come from standing and fighting three or four guys coming down a completely undefended lane, trying to hold them off until somebody comes to re-inforce, or we win.
I tend to think of vents as like a third perk in CoD - useful sure, but don't sweat it if you wanted something else. Use them to fill a slot, basically.
Gun laying drives are entirely playstyle dependant. If you like to hang back and snipe, or use a big gun on a heavy, they'll be fine. Otherwise they're not really worth it. Camo nets are more of the same, but at least everyone can make use of better [strike]cloaking devices[/strike] bush-hiding skills at some stage.
Repair kits aren't that great in my experience, but coupled with a high enough repair skill on your crew you can almost instantly repair a module. Great for if you get tracked, or really need your turret working again to get in the killing shot.
I haven't used anything else, but they're pretty self explanitory really. Suspension for if you don't want to get the actual suspension upgrade and only need a a ton more to the weight limit. Spall liners are good, I guess, but not so useful these days with the inaccuracy of artillery. Wet racks and CO² tanks are entirely tank dependant. Some will get ammo racked every battle, others you might never need them. Binocs and optics are most useful on scouts and TDs, for obvious reasons, but extra view range always helps.
Note though, that these days you can remove the non-removable equipment for 10 gold. Great if you have a little left over.
As for consumables, the gold ones probably aren't worth it these days, and only use a credits one if you don't intend to immediately keel over after use. I found good use of med kits on my VK(DB) in particular, and it wasn't likely to make me go into debt if I used them, but any higher tier and you really need to assess the likelihood of you making the money back. Of course, I'm sure many of you are better players than me and so its not such an issue, but for anyone about as average as me (;-)), take note.
American tanks have early access to vertical stabilizers. Their heavy tanks get stabilizers at tier 7 (T-29); their medium tanks get them at tier 6 (Easy 8).
[Edit]
A REALLY important note about repair kits:
If both of your tracks have been shot off for some reason, using a credit repair kit will only fix one track - leaving you still stuck because of the other one.
I can't get myself to buy any other mountable though, as they cost 500k credits each and...that's a lot of credits
Maybe one day!
I've found that I have some consumables, that I have no idea where I got them from. I have 5 cokes, 5 chocolates, and 5 combat rations. Never used them though.
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Those consumables were free gifts from the devs for some WW2 anniversary. I don't remember. But once you get up to tier 8 you can probably start affording the mounted equipment.
Check out the Penny Arcade World of Tanks thread to join us in some fun times.
This pretty much sums it up for me. I bring three credit consumables on everything I drive: medkit, repair kit, and fire extinguisher. I also use them pretty indiscriminately - I figure if it'll let me get one or two more good shots in, it'll pay for itself (or nearly so, anyway). Maybe without a premium account it'd be a different story. (Gold consumables are way too expensive; maybe I'll use them in clan battles if we get back to doing them.)
As for mountable equipment, yeah, most of it is expensive. I bought a couple of camo nets and some binocs fairly early on since they can be switched around easily, but waited until the T-43 to buy a rammer, optics, and vents. Now that you can demount the "permanent" equipment for 10 gold there's less of a reason to hold off on it, but it still costs an arm and a leg by low/mid tier standards. If you have to choose between buying equipment and saving for a new tank, I suggest the new tank. Unless you have a favorite tier 6 you plan on sticking with for a long time, anyway.
I think the rammer is roughly equally useful for all types of guns. 10% is 10%, regardless of your exact RoF. It increases your damage output by the same proportion either way, at least assuming you're always firing as soon as you're loaded. So really it depends more on the tactical situation than which specific gun you're using: if you have lots of targets available or are in a duel/dogfight where cover isn't a big factor, you get the full benefit out of it; if you're in a tense peekaboo fight where you can only get a shot off occasionally it's not as helpful. But in my experience, you'll probably end up in both of those situations and many that fall somewhere in between during the course of a single battle, regardless of what you're driving, so why not bring it?
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Quickly repairing a track if you get stuck in a kill zone, repairing a damaged gun for sniping again, or bringing back a gunner / loader makes a huge difference.
The gun on the t30 is so slow that during clan matches if any of those critical shooting parts get damaged i'm essentially neutered because I just can't spit out the shells to help stop an is-7 army.
PSN = PessimistMaximus
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Where as from what I've seen both US and Russian mediums play more like mediums. They're fast can bounce a good amount of shtos (they have good sloped armor) and are very low profile. They're manuverable and quick. If you want a flanking, shot bouncing, front line, hard hitting medium, russian/US is the way to go. If you want to play support sniper then Panthers are fine at that.