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[BRITISH POLITICS] AV referendum 5th May

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Posts

  • WietWiet Mao Mao Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I really loved the No to AV folder that was circulated a while back. One of the arguments was that almost nobody uses it and a country like Fiji was getting rid it. Without mentioning that Fiji hada military takeover and is getting rid of elections entirely.

    Wiet on
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  • TaskmanTaskman Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Fyndir wrote: »
    Taskman wrote: »
    -The ranking system means that potentially extreme right or left parties such as the BNP and UKIP could garner seats they wouldn't have had a hope of getting before.

    I do not believe that to be true, as I seem to recall the BNP winning a seat with something like 10% of the vote in one election, it seems that they ONLY win due to FPTP.

    It isn't true. It's just a reoccurring argument meant to sway people to vote no that I took from a conservative blog. It has no connection to even basic reasoning.
    The problem being that many, many people don't bother to try basic reasoning.

    Taskman on
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  • FyndirFyndir Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    But then UKIP are endorsing AV.

    So if you vow to do the opposite of what a bunch of barely-disguised racists and bigots do then you're stuck in an infinite loop.

    UKIP are far less offensive than the BNP, and also less batshit insane.

    Also, I never vowed to do anything, I said it was a basic litmus test, which does not confine me to any one view it simply gives an initial reaction based on a single piece of information, even a thoroughly fucked clock can be right once a day, and so even the most extreme party can occasionally stumble into the correct answer to a political question.

    When I thought about the system in more depth, I reached a couple of conclusions.

    Anyone who does not vote for an extreme party already are unlikely to list them as a second choice.

    The extreme parties tend to get a small enough percentage of the vote, and there tends to be a large 'protest vote' contingent within that, that they seem unlikely to survive the first round once the need for protest votes is removed.

    If a majority of the people in an area actually want an extreme party, what right do we have to stop them under a democracy?

    Liiya wrote: »
    And you forget that to me your height is intimidating.

    Liiya, noooooooooooo.

    Do not be intimidated, I am the BFG.

    Fyndir on
  • Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    Wiet wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    It's a shame that the no campaign is going to take this in a huge landslide, as there's really no sane reason to favour FPTP over AV, unless you happen to be a Tory MP in a "safe" constituency.

    I think the best reason for voting no was so that we can get PV instead. This appears to be based on the expectation that we'll have a referendum every month until we choose a new system. It's not like we have only ever had two referendums in history. And then again, I'm not sure I like the idea of PV, although I think this just stems from my own clumsy attempts to think of what a system based on PV would look like in the UK.

    Voting no on AV because you want something else seems like shooting yourself in the foot. As long as you guys have a Tory government you're not going to see another referendum on this, so a small step is better than no step at all.

    Totally, and yet it's not a tiny minority that appear to be doing just that. It's just the reason I enjoy the most from the no-camp.

    Yeah I have at least one acquaintance who will be voting no because she wants something better, and believes that if we change the system now, there won't be another chance for change in a very long time. Which is a fair point, but if we don't change it now I don't think that will make it any more likely to get something different within our lifetimes. It will simply be used by the major parties who FPTP benefits to say, well, we gave you a say, and you all said you liked FPTP.

    Then I have other acquaintances who think it's "silly" to change to something so much more complicated, and refuse to even think about it. Never mind that it's also more democratic. It's all very depressing really.

    Brovid Hasselsmof on
  • GumpyGumpy There is always a greater powerRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    If we don't change now, then it will be used to show that the public doesn't want change at all. We're not going to jump from FPTP to some form of PR

    Gumpy on
  • LiiyaLiiya Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I used to love that book.


    Hm, but its not complicated. Surely it'd be explained on top of the voting sheet anyway?

    Liiya on
  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    L|ama wrote: »
    fptp is shit get something else

    Beasteh on
  • WietWiet Mao Mao Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    It's not complicated in the slightest. Atleast not more so than what you have right now.

    Wiet on
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  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Wiet wrote: »
    It's not complicated in the slightest. Atleast not more so than what you have right now.

    Yes, but most people don't understand how our current system works either.

    Like all the moaning when Brown took power because "we didn't elect him". We didn't elect Blair either. It's now how it works.

    Mojo_Jojo on
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  • SomestickguySomestickguy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I really haven't ever had a side in politics. I just can't decide which side I dislike less.

    When I was in my first apartment, my landlord was pretty heavily labour. And he was very keen on trying to push that onto me, despite me repeatedly telling him that I just didn't care. A lot of the time he came of as irrational, like he was just siding with the labour point of view because it was the labour point of view, and opposing the Tory point of view because... well, you get the picture.

    Whenever he saw me reading the mirror he made quips about using it as toilet paper because it was a "labour paper". I didn't read the mirror because it was a labour paper. I read it because I wanted to read a newspaper and that was the one without the naked girls on page 3.

    Somestickguy on
  • winderwinder Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    smof, I'm not sure if its the same in Britain with this AV thing but in Aus we seem to have a similar system and if you just choose to put a 1 next to only the party you want then the party's preferences are used, so it still passes down the vote, (if you were saying that doesn't happen in Britain, maybe I misunderstood).

    I know that because the major parties all poo-pooed one fringe group he managed to get enough preferences to make it in to the senate with something like 2% of the vote under our system which probably makes it less than perfect too.

    winder on
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I thought The Mirror did have page 3 girls?

    Mojo_Jojo on
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  • GumpyGumpy There is always a greater powerRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    There are quite a few papers without page 3

    Guardian, Telegraph, Times. Broadsheets instead of tabloids.

    Gumpy on
  • SomestickguySomestickguy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I just got the mirror whenever I was bored rather than when I was interested in actual news.

    Part of the fun is guessing which of the stories are completely made up.

    Somestickguy on
  • SomestickguySomestickguy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    I thought The Mirror did have page 3 girls?

    Last I checked, no. But It's been a while since I bought one.

    Somestickguy on
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    That's a shame. If you're getting a tabloid, you want to get some boobs.

    Mojo_Jojo on
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  • SomestickguySomestickguy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I really don't.

    Somestickguy on
  • Bacon-BuTTyBacon-BuTTy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    AV is stupidly uncomplicated. I can't believe the Conservative's way of putting it down is telling the public how "complicated and difficult" it is.

    If I like the Liberal Democrats the most (hahaha) but I also like the Green Party and UKIP. I vote saying as much.

    If I like the Liberal Democrats and nobody else (because I'm a giant fuckwit) I just vote Libdem.

    Honestly the more I think about AV and FPTP the more I am amazed that we don't already have AV in place. The media are pretty much accepting (without saying it outright) that it's the more intelligent and democratic voting system but there is no serious discussion going on about it. There are just soundbytes from Nick Clegg chippering on like a primary school teacher, explaining it to me like I'm an idiot. And David Cameron using weasel speak to tell me how complicated and rediculous it is. That's it. The only time it's ever discussed outside of those means, it's depicted as terribly dull and unimportant and something we'd all like to be over and done with.

    I hate British politics now more than I have in a long time.

    This isn't helped by the fact that I used to be so sure which party I supported, for years, before they shat in my mouth with a smile on their faces. (Guess which one) - honestly, I have been seriously disillusioned by the last year in politics. I hate people who say "I just don't care about politics" but I am quickly becoming one of them.

    Bacon-BuTTy on
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  • Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Honestly the more I think about AV and FPTP the more I am amazed that we don't already have AV in place. The media are pretty much accepting (without saying it outright) that it's the more intelligent and democratic voting system but there is no serious discussion going on about it. There are just soundbytes from Nick Clegg chippering on like a primary school teacher, explaining it to me like I'm an idiot. And David Cameron using weasel speak to tell me how complicated and rediculous it is. That's it. The only time it's ever discussed outside of those means, it's depicted as terribly dull and unimportant and something we'd all like to be over and done with.

    You obviously haven't been reading the Daily Mail or the News of the World (for which I commend you, you are a decent human being!). It seems like every day for the last couple of months the Mail has had something to say about AV. From slagging off Nick Clegg, to trying to convince people they are too dumb to vote with AV, to making frankly surreal statements like "We all loved Colin Firth in The King's Speech, but under AV he wouldn't have won his oscar!". I don't know if I've ever seen as intense raving by them on any subject. And this is the Daily Batshit Burn-all-Foreigners Mail we're talking about.

    And yeah, I know and everyone here knows that it's not complicated. But the No campaign want very much for you to think it is. So much so that my dad (a Daily Mail reader, may he be judged mercifully) said to me the other day, "You have a university education, do you understand AV?" and when I just said yes he kind of deflated. There are people who genuinely think it is as hard as neuroscience, because they don't give it any thought.

    Brovid Hasselsmof on
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    smof wrote: »
    [d everyone here knows that it's not complicated. But the No campaign want very much for you to think it is. So much so that my dad (a Daily Mail reader, may he be judged mercifully) said to me the other day, "You have a university education, do you understand AV?" and when I just said yes he kind of deflated. There are people who genuinely think it is as hard as neuroscience, because they don't give it any thought.

    Did you explain it to him though? It's important to actually explain what it is, then it's obvious why it's the better choice.

    Mojo_Jojo on
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  • Bacon-BuTTyBacon-BuTTy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    smof wrote: »
    Honestly the more I think about AV and FPTP the more I am amazed that we don't already have AV in place. The media are pretty much accepting (without saying it outright) that it's the more intelligent and democratic voting system but there is no serious discussion going on about it. There are just soundbytes from Nick Clegg chippering on like a primary school teacher, explaining it to me like I'm an idiot. And David Cameron using weasel speak to tell me how complicated and rediculous it is. That's it. The only time it's ever discussed outside of those means, it's depicted as terribly dull and unimportant and something we'd all like to be over and done with.

    You obviously haven't been reading the Daily Mail or the News of the World (for which I commend you, you are a decent human being!). It seems like every day for the last couple of months the Mail has had something to say about AV. From slagging off Nick Clegg, to trying to convince people they are too dumb to vote with AV, to making frankly surreal statements like "We all loved Colin Firth in The King's Speech, but under AV he wouldn't have won his oscar!". I don't know if I've ever seen as intense raving by them on any subject. And this is the Daily Batshit Burn-all-Foreigners Mail we're talking about.

    And yeah, I know and everyone here knows that it's not complicated. But the No campaign want very much for you to think it is. So much so that my dad (a Daily Mail reader, may he be judged mercifully) said to me the other day, "You have a university education, do you understand AV?" and when I just said yes he kind of deflated. There are people who genuinely think it is as hard as neuroscience, because they don't give it any thought.

    You're right, I haven't read the Daily Mail. And I welcome any and all compliments on that. I too congratulate you for being a rational human being for avoiding that horrible, dangerous piece of shit publication.

    I get all my news from the BBC - and whenever it is discussed, although they can't show bias, they basically say "AV means that all of the voters preferences are taken in to account and governments can't be elected purely for having the majority of the votes, regardless of how low the actual percentage is"... I mean, correct me if I am wrong, but there is nothing negative about the sentence. The only way that outcome could possibly be seen as bad, is if you're a two faced politician type who is relying on only having to reprisent the percentage of constituents that they need in order to gain power. Rather than being the type that has to work hard to have the entire countries best interests in mind. And yet still this whole AV thing is being looked at as dull and uninteresting. Come on people. This is important.

    My dad is also a Daily Mail reader. I feel your pain.

    Bacon-BuTTy on
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  • PeccaviPeccavi Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I wrote a paper about switching to AV (or IRV, as I called it) a couple years ago, and would love to see it implemented in the States.

    Hope everything turns out well for you across the pond.

    Peccavi on
  • Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    smof wrote: »
    [d everyone here knows that it's not complicated. But the No campaign want very much for you to think it is. So much so that my dad (a Daily Mail reader, may he be judged mercifully) said to me the other day, "You have a university education, do you understand AV?" and when I just said yes he kind of deflated. There are people who genuinely think it is as hard as neuroscience, because they don't give it any thought.

    Did you explain it to him though? It's important to actually explain what it is, then it's obvious why it's the better choice.

    I didn't, no. I know I should have, but he didn't ask and man you know how it is talking politics with your parents, this was during dinner and I am weak and cowardly and just did not want to get into it. Any discussion we have about politics is always... strained, to say the least.

    My mum is of the opinion that the tories should have outright won the last general election because, even though they got less than 40% of the vote, they got more than anyone else and that's fair. I love my parents and I get on fantastically with them 99% of the time but it can be hard work having those conversations.

    Brovid Hasselsmof on
  • Bacon-BuTTyBacon-BuTTy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    smof wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    smof wrote: »
    [d everyone here knows that it's not complicated. But the No campaign want very much for you to think it is. So much so that my dad (a Daily Mail reader, may he be judged mercifully) said to me the other day, "You have a university education, do you understand AV?" and when I just said yes he kind of deflated. There are people who genuinely think it is as hard as neuroscience, because they don't give it any thought.

    Did you explain it to him though? It's important to actually explain what it is, then it's obvious why it's the better choice.

    I didn't, no. I know I should have, but he didn't ask and man you know how it is talking politics with your parents, this was during dinner and I am weak and cowardly and just did not want to get into it. Any discussion we have about politics is always... strained, to say the least.

    My mum is of the opinion that the tories should have outright won the last general election because, even though they got less than 40% of the vote, they got more than anyone else and that's fair. I love my parents and I get on fantastically with them 99% of the time but it can be hard work having those conversations.

    Last Christmas my mother, after quaffing her third or fourth glass of wine, burped out that she was a BNP supporter. And proceeded to naively explain her reasons. My mum is so lovely. I was horrified.

    So yeah, I agree. Politics and parents are a difficult mix.

    Bacon-BuTTy on
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  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    smof wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    smof wrote: »
    [d everyone here knows that it's not complicated. But the No campaign want very much for you to think it is. So much so that my dad (a Daily Mail reader, may he be judged mercifully) said to me the other day, "You have a university education, do you understand AV?" and when I just said yes he kind of deflated. There are people who genuinely think it is as hard as neuroscience, because they don't give it any thought.

    Did you explain it to him though? It's important to actually explain what it is, then it's obvious why it's the better choice.

    I didn't, no. I know I should have, but he didn't ask and man you know how it is talking politics with your parents, this was during dinner and I am weak and cowardly and just did not want to get into it. Any discussion we have about politics is always... strained, to say the least.

    My mum is of the opinion that the tories should have outright won the last general election because, even though they got less than 40% of the vote, they got more than anyone else and that's fair. I love my parents and I get on fantastically with them 99% of the time but it can be hard work having those conversations.
    Ah, maybe I'm just more a dick. My parents made some remark about hoping AV didn't get through which prompted a brief seminar on why they are idiots and should try to do some thinking on their own. We still managed to have a pleasant breakfast afterwards though.

    Mojo_Jojo on
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  • Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Canada has a government? I thought it was held together by loosely allied lumberjacks and glue made from old maple syrup.

    Macro9 on
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  • EdcrabEdcrab Actually a hack Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Wiet wrote: »
    I really loved the No to AV folder that was circulated a while back. One of the arguments was that almost nobody uses it and a country like Fiji was getting rid it. Without mentioning that Fiji hada military takeover and is getting rid of elections entirely.

    I remember you mentioning that! Insane.


    I'm voting yes. It's not a perfect system but it's a definite step up, but sadly it probably has little chance of winning in the first place. The cynical part of me thinks the government only allowed the referendum to occur because they were so confident that the Yes campaign would get steamrolled courtesy of their lying spiel.

    Edcrab on
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  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I'm still undecided. It's quite a difficult decision really.

    Firstly, my worst fear is that a vote of No to AV will be widely perceived as a Yes vote for first past the post. Which is not always going to be true. In fact, like Nick Clegg said; I believe AV to be a miserable little compromise and was initially leaning towards a No vote. Change for change's sake is not a good enough reason for me. I want the right voting system, and this isn't going to be a process of small incremental steps towards the right one. We can't afford to have such a voting system change every five, ten years. If we adopt AV it will be decades before another referendum.

    That said, I am no fan of first past the post either. It has significant problems which I am firmly against, mainly the 'safe seats' concept. I live in one of the most rock solid Labour seats in the entire country. So my vote really doesn't have any meaningful effect on the parliament structure outside of a public relations message. AV doesn't at all guarantee these safe seats will go away, but it does overall provide a little more heft to each voting ballot, which I like.

    So does that mean I have to choose between the lesser of two evils? I'm not in any way satisfied with either system, which is why I believe the Lib Dems have been played here. This is NFL politics and they are still rookies.

    If AV is voted in with a yes vote, the Lib Dems will have a small bump to their block of seats, but nowhere near enough to actually influence elections outside of a hung parliament situation. Which, despite the scaremongering, isn't necessarily any more likely. So they remain stuck in their limbo, scraping for votes still not where they want to be. And because of the referendum it will be years and years before another is put forward. This was their one chance for real change and they flubbed it.

    Furthermore, if supporters of the Lib Dems or people who in general don't feel AV goes 'far enough' vote it down, and the consensus is a strong No vote, then opponents to change, particularly the Conservatives will no doubt paint that as both a strong sign from the public that they support FPTP and that they dislike the idea of change, of another referendum.

    Meaning that they are screwed either way.

    The_Scarab on
  • PeccaviPeccavi Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    God, reading some of the Vote No stuff on this is hilarious. Like this great bit from The Sun:
    However unlikely it might be, it is statistically possible under AV for a candidate who has 45 per cent of the vote as first choice to lose the seat if he is not people's second, third or fourth choice on the ballot paper.

    Yes, because 50% +1 of the population preferred the winning candidate to that candidate. But I guess those 45% should count more, since it was their first choice.

    Peccavi on
  • EdcrabEdcrab Actually a hack Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Oh, definitely, it goes without saying that if and when the No campaign triumphs Cameron will swan around telling everyone how he enabled the will of the people and that the voting system will never need analysed or improved ever again. Because it's the will of the people.

    Did he mention that it's for the will of the people?

    Edcrab on
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  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Peccavi wrote: »
    God, reading some of the Vote No stuff on this is hilarious. Like this great bit from The Sun:
    However unlikely it might be, it is statistically possible under AV for a candidate who has 45 per cent of the vote as first choice to lose the seat if he is not people's second, third or fourth choice on the ballot paper.

    Yes, because 50% +1 of the population preferred the winning candidate to that candidate. But I guess those 45% should count more, since it was their first choice.

    Counterpoint: That 50% +1 of the population by and large wanted somebody else, and have settled for the winning candidate because they are the lesser of the other evils.

    The_Scarab on
  • EdcrabEdcrab Actually a hack Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    That's pretty much what will happen with any election. Compromise.

    Did I say compromise? I mean getting shafted by a different person than you'd have wanted.

    Edcrab on
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  • WietWiet Mao Mao Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The fourth and fifth of May are holidays here so I'll have all the time in the world to watch how this referendum goes.

    Judging.

    Wiet on
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  • DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    has it been covered yet that first past the post is absolutely awful

    Dichotomy on
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  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Wiet wrote: »
    The fourth and fifth of May are holidays here so I'll have all the time in the world to watch how this referendum goes.

    Judging.

    I'll save you the bother: Every poll so far has suggested an overwhelming No vote. Some put it as much as 20 points ahead of the Yes camp, even with the same again undecided.

    Combining the grotesque levels of FUD from the No camp with the legitimate reasons to vote no, along with the hundreds of thousands of students who will vote against the Lib Dems on anything from now until eternity (Students were a huge block of Lib Dem voters, and a lot of Lib Dem seats are in huge student towns. Some MPs got in almost exclusively on the student vote), and the close association between a Yes vote on AV and a support of the Lib Dems (they after all stand to immediately gain most from the change) - there's almost no way this will pass.

    The_Scarab on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Dichotomy wrote: »
    has it been covered yet that first past the post is absolutely awful

    It has its benefits, and works for a huge range of demographic spreads, economic differences and social structures - making it the most popular voting system globally.

    It's less a case of it being absolutely terrible, more a case of it has become terrible as our society has changed and developed from one where FPTP would have been more effective and fairer.

    We need a new system, the time has come, but the worst thing about this referendum is that AV is the shittiest alternative that could have been put forward short of single transferable vote (the same but more annoying) or some kind of electoral college (which is worse and wouldn't work anyway in Britain).

    The_Scarab on
  • Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I see the general consensus here, and other forums I frequent heavily populated by Brits, and I feel a small happy feeling that so many people want the more rational, democratic choice. And then reality kicks in and I remember that the majority of the voting populace in this country seem to have an enormous hard-on for the status quo, and all the sunshine goes out of my day again.

    Brovid Hasselsmof on
  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    Bogey wrote: »
    Alright, unless something major happens, we're taking a real break from politics threads.

    Orikaeshigitae on
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