you're totally right, by the way, that a more complete college career is in most players' best financial (and probably personal) interest. It obviously was for hodges, which is presumably why he chose to stay around as long as he did.
But for the <100 players we're talking about, who either came out of high school or were one and dones since the mid nineties, coming to the NBA has mostly been a good decision. Because they (again, with a few exceptions) were really good basketball players who went on to earn huge amounts of money playing basketball.
Like, you know what a dude who banked 5 million over the course of an average-length nba career can do when he's done? Whatever he fucking wants.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
you're totally right, by the way, that a more complete college career is in most players' best financial (and probably personal) interest. It obviously was for hodges, which is presumably why he chose to stay around as long as he did.
But for the <100 players we're talking about, who either came out of high school or were one and dones since the mid nineties, coming to the NBA has mostly been a good decision. Because they (again, with a few exceptions) were really good basketball players who went on to earn huge amounts of money playing basketball.
Like, you know what a dude who banked 5 million over the course of an average-length nba career can do when he's done? Whatever he fucking wants.
Unless they have show no ability to save or plan for their future, which is its own issue
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
You do realize that this example only proves Bubbas point, right? That forcing players to stay in school insnt the solution.
Not really, no. In the case of Hodge, he would not have been drafted at all if he had made the jump to the NBA after his first year, or had forgone college for a declaration out of High School. He stayed in college and got better, and the final disposition is that it worked out for him financially, but not in terms of a long NBA career. Some players just never make the leap to adjusting to the pro game, and are very fortunate they spent a number of years playing college ball, making the case that they wouldn't be one of those people.
College development is the solution if we care about raising the overall quality of play in the league among players who make the cut and among those who don't--and it is the solution if we care about the long-term financial interests of the players. There is an eventual payday waiting for them down the road, but whether or not there is a long career waiting for them as well can be highly dependent on the player (this guy would rather jump you and take your wallet than learn a proper drop step) and the level of college instruction he gets (NC State's basketball program was "okay" at the most).
What? So a guy who had no business being in the NBA is your shining example that the NBA should force players to stay in college? He played only 14 games and was just as much a waste of a draft spot as any HS player or One-and-done player that didn't pan out. From your description, Julius Hodge should never have played in the NBA, neither after HS, nor his freshman year or even as a college senior. All that this really proves is that the draft is a giant crap shoot and that NBA GM's are dumb and don't know what they are doing.
well right. Unfortunately in lots of cases "whatever he fucking wants" seems to amount to buying a bunch of cars, or starting a record label or something. But it's not as though that is a problem restricted to players who didn't graduate from college.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
They did make a minor league. The NBDL (NBA Development League) is a real thing already, and the minimum age to play is 18, not 19 as it is in the NBA. The NBA pays everyone in the league.
So the solution to Kerr's problem already exists? What is he even going on about then?
Yea, the NBA could just send rooks down to develop for 1-2 years (with the exception of "instant starters") but they mostly just don't.
There really does seem to be a tendency against washout and rise up in the NBA. How many times does a bad draft pick get told to fuck off after 2 seasons of marginal play? How often is a D-Leaguer picked up? If anything, I think the small roster sizes make it psychologically crippling to make changes to a roster.
You do realize that this example only proves Bubbas point, right? That forcing players to stay in school insnt the solution.
Not really, no. In the case of Hodge, he would not have been drafted at all if he had made the jump to the NBA after his first year, or had forgone college for a declaration out of High School. He stayed in college and got better, and the final disposition is that it worked out for him financially, but not in terms of a long NBA career. Some players just never make the leap to adjusting to the pro game, and are very fortunate they spent a number of years playing college ball, making the case that they wouldn't be one of those people.
College development is the solution if we care about raising the overall quality of play in the league among players who make the cut and among those who don't--and it is the solution if we care about the long-term financial interests of the players. There is an eventual payday waiting for them down the road, but whether or not there is a long career waiting for them as well can be highly dependent on the player (this guy would rather jump you and take your wallet than learn a proper drop step) and the level of college instruction he gets (NC State's basketball program was "okay" at the most).
What? So a guy who had no business being in the NBA is your shining example that the NBA should force players to stay in college? He played only 14 games and was just as much a waste of a draft spot as any HS player or One-and-done player that didn't pan out. From your description, Julius Hodge should never have played in the NBA, neither after HS, nor his freshman year or even as a college senior. All that this really proves is that the draft is a giant crap shoot and that NBA GM's are dumb and don't know what they are doing.
It's a great example because it shows that while the player's interests are almost always better served by staying in school and showcasing their talents there, it doesn't necessarily fix the problem of raising the level of competition back to what it should be in the league, which is what the NBA has been trying to police with every new CBA. It's a great example because it shows that college can't always be a way of consolidating those competing interests, between the players, the teams, and the league.
If we're talking strictly about the player's own agency in all of this, their own interests, college is almost always the way to go, even in cases where they essentially end up defrauding some unlucky team of multiple millions of contractually obligated dollars and screwing them out of a pick on somebody else.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
you're totally right, by the way, that a more complete college career is in most players' best financial (and probably personal) interest. It obviously was for hodges, which is presumably why he chose to stay around as long as he did.
But for the <100 players we're talking about, who either came out of high school or were one and dones since the mid nineties, coming to the NBA has mostly been a good decision. Because they (again, with a few exceptions) were really good basketball players who went on to earn huge amounts of money playing basketball.
Like, you know what a dude who banked 5 million over the course of an average-length nba career can do when he's done? Whatever he fucking wants.
Unless they have show no ability to save or plan for their future, which is its own issue
You do realize that this example only proves Bubbas point, right? That forcing players to stay in school insnt the solution.
Not really, no. In the case of Hodge, he would not have been drafted at all if he had made the jump to the NBA after his first year, or had forgone college for a declaration out of High School. He stayed in college and got better, and the final disposition is that it worked out for him financially, but not in terms of a long NBA career. Some players just never make the leap to adjusting to the pro game, and are very fortunate they spent a number of years playing college ball, making the case that they wouldn't be one of those people.
College development is the solution if we care about raising the overall quality of play in the league among players who make the cut and among those who don't--and it is the solution if we care about the long-term financial interests of the players. There is an eventual payday waiting for them down the road, but whether or not there is a long career waiting for them as well can be highly dependent on the player (this guy would rather jump you and take your wallet than learn a proper drop step) and the level of college instruction he gets (NC State's basketball program was "okay" at the most).
What? So a guy who had no business being in the NBA is your shining example that the NBA should force players to stay in college? He played only 14 games and was just as much a waste of a draft spot as any HS player or One-and-done player that didn't pan out. From your description, Julius Hodge should never have played in the NBA, neither after HS, nor his freshman year or even as a college senior. All that this really proves is that the draft is a giant crap shoot and that NBA GM's are dumb and don't know what they are doing.
It's a great example because it shows that while the player's interests are almost always better served by staying in school and showcasing their talents there, it doesn't necessarily fix the problem of raising the level of competition back to what it should be in the league, which is what the NBA has been trying to police with every new CBA. It's a great example because it shows that college can't always be a way of consolidating those competing interests, between the players, the teams, and the league.
If we're talking strictly about the player's own agency in all of this, their own interests, college is almost always the way to go, even in cases where they essentially end up defrauding some unlucky team of multiple millions of contractually obligated dollars and screwing them out of a pick on somebody else.
again
the players in question, as a group, have been highly successful. Not just financially for themselves, but as NBA players. If you buy into the widely-stated belief that the league's fortunes turn on the fate of its star players, well, a whole lot of the 'star players' currently in the league came either straight from HS or were one-and-done players.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
You do realize that this example only proves Bubbas point, right? That forcing players to stay in school insnt the solution.
Not really, no. In the case of Hodge, he would not have been drafted at all if he had made the jump to the NBA after his first year, or had forgone college for a declaration out of High School. He stayed in college and got better, and the final disposition is that it worked out for him financially, but not in terms of a long NBA career. Some players just never make the leap to adjusting to the pro game, and are very fortunate they spent a number of years playing college ball, making the case that they wouldn't be one of those people.
College development is the solution if we care about raising the overall quality of play in the league among players who make the cut and among those who don't--and it is the solution if we care about the long-term financial interests of the players. There is an eventual payday waiting for them down the road, but whether or not there is a long career waiting for them as well can be highly dependent on the player (this guy would rather jump you and take your wallet than learn a proper drop step) and the level of college instruction he gets (NC State's basketball program was "okay" at the most).
What? So a guy who had no business being in the NBA is your shining example that the NBA should force players to stay in college? He played only 14 games and was just as much a waste of a draft spot as any HS player or One-and-done player that didn't pan out. From your description, Julius Hodge should never have played in the NBA, neither after HS, nor his freshman year or even as a college senior. All that this really proves is that the draft is a giant crap shoot and that NBA GM's are dumb and don't know what they are doing.
It's a great example because it shows that while the player's interests are almost always better served by staying in school and showcasing their talents there, it doesn't necessarily fix the problem of raising the level of competition back to what it should be in the league, which is what the NBA has been trying to police with every new CBA. It's a great example because it shows that college can't always be a way of consolidating those competing interests, between the players, the teams, and the league.
If we're talking strictly about the player's own agency in all of this, their own interests, college is almost always the way to go, even in cases where they essentially end up defrauding some unlucky team of multiple millions of contractually obligated dollars and screwing them out of a pick on somebody else.
again
the players in question, as a group, have been highly successful. Not just financially for themselves, but as NBA players. If you buy into the widely-stated belief that the league's fortunes turn on the fate of its star players, well, a whole lot of the 'star players' currently in the league came either straight from HS or were one-and-done players.
I'm not even sure the league itself buys into this. Opinions on the subject certainly differ.
The best arguments I've seen involve a desire to raise the overall quality of play in the league, not just to make the path to stardom that much easier for the few players who are destined to be great regardless of where they play in their late teens.
In other words, this is less about the Kobe Bryants and Kevin Garnetts in the world, and far more about everybody else.
Even if we throw out the 5-8 'star players' in the group, they've still been successful. Only a small minority completely washed out, and most got a second or third contract somewhere along the line.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
That does nothing for improving the product being put out on the floor, which is one of the chief problems with the current system. It was never a common problem that legitimately great players aren't able to eventually find their way to a huge paycheck. As I pointed out, even bad players can get paid in the current system.
What it does is provide further evidence that the arguments against Kerr are poor (i.e. things like "the players are somehow not getting a fair shake by being "forced" to go to college for a year"). If high school players are successful, if one-and-dones are generally equally successful, then why this resistance to one-and-dones in favor of high school declarations, particularly if it would have made the players better and improved the product on the floor?
probably because developing a high school player into an nba player is sometimes costly and difficult, and nba teams want the ncaa to act as a de facto (free!) development league. Also because it can't keep its teams from embarrassing themselves by drafting kwame brown #1 overall.
the question is whether you think players who want to play pro ball and can should be prevented from doing so for 2+ years, at fairly tremendous risk to their own earning potential, because michael jordan is a shitty talent evaluator
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
That is a good way to put it. I would definitely agree that teams have been equally culpable in lowering the overall quality of play in the league, by lacking the basic ability to evaluate talent.
I would also add that from a practical standpoint, it is easier to raise the age limit a year than it is to find a new owner for the Bobcats, or else somehow teach Michael Jordan to NOT be one of the worst owners in league history.
If we're talking about labor law, that's one thing, but if we're talking about practical fixes to a complex problem, there is only so much that can really be done.
I further think that the case is extremely shoddy that additional time in college would improve the quality of the NBA game. If that were the case, we should see "polished" college players taking the jobs of HS/one-and-dones on a consistent basis, but we don't really.
I mean, if a player sticks in the NBA past their rookie deal, it doesn't just mean that they lucked into a paycheck or something. I means that after watching them for 3-4 years, some NBA team thinks they're a competitive enough player to continue cutting checks to.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Kerr points out that the best players of the last generation did indeed have polished collegiate games and made an impact as rookies. Then, they went on to refine their games even more over the course of their respective NBA careers.
Kobe Bryant, 1996-97: 15.5 MPG, 7.6 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 1.3 apg, 42% FG, 14.4 PER, 1.8 win shares, 56 wins (Lakers lost in second round, with Kobe famously firing two air balls in the last minute of the final loss).2
What you've pointed out is exactly what Kerr is arguing--that good players have been incentivized to leap early, and their games suffer accordingly as does the entertainment product that is the NBA, and that good players in subsequent drafts do the same exact thing because they have been likewise incentivized. There is never a crop of truly great players who stayed in college to overtake them, because they are all offered the same financial incentives and act accordingly. And so the cycle continues on and on like this and the league suffers as a whole.
I also think you are deliberately trying to overstate the effect of collegiate development to try to enhance your point. Collegiate development is such that a great player can become a legend, and (as I pointed out) a borderline NBA talent can even get good enough to trick scouts. But it's rarely enough to make a bad player into a great one. It is all about developing tools and talents that the prospect already may have.
It also hasn't gone unnoticed how well JaVale McGee--a raw athletic talent in his own right--has been playing now that he's with a team that doesn't suck, playing for his first good coach in George Karl.
He was a 2-year talent out of Nevada who had all the athletic gifts to be one of the most dominant centers the league has ever seen. Yeah, it hasn't turned out that way, and he is *just now* starting to come into his own after his third year in the league.
It's a complicated issue and can vary depending on the player and the programs...
I'm kind of optimistic about McGee, but we should probably wait more than a single playoff series against the wildly inconsistent Lakers to determine if he's really, finally, putting it altogether.
Oh, no question, especially because McGee wants a lot of money this off-season and may just be playing for a contract.
If he's reasonable with his salary demands and wants to stick around in Denver, he couldn't have picked a better place.
That front office has been working miracles the past couple of seasons, from fleecing New York in the Melo trade to signing and then promptly trading Nene, who looked almost unmovable.
Seems like they know what they're doing in Denver, and we'll have to wait and see if he is going to be a part of it.
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
McGee is a great example; a coach like Popavich or Karl or even Mike Brown (who isn't a great coach, but he can really teach you to defend) who will coach his guys and teach them every day can take a talented guy, and as long as McGee doesn't get fed up with Karl harping on him, can really develop that dude.
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TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
And this is different from McGee getting drafted out of HS or after his freshman year, how exactly? It still takes a good NBA coach for this kid to "come into his own". You keep bringing examples that are not really strenghtening the point you are trying to make.
And this is different from McGee getting drafted out of HS or after his freshman year, how exactly? It still takes a good NBA coach for this kid to "come into his own". You keep bringing examples that are not really strenghtening the point you are trying to make.
I brought him up as a good counter-example, TheBigEasy, because we're talking about this, not arguing about it in a courtroom. In fact, it's really, really hard to come down on just one side or the other on the issue, because exceptions abound and it's a challenging and nuanced problem that the league now faces.
I mean take a good look at McGee, he spent TWO years in college, not one, so he's a rough example of what the league is pushing for by raising the age limit. He nevertheless became a sort of clown on the Wizards after his rookie year.
Then you finally expose him to his first good coach, learning the game under the auspices of a quality NBA program for the first time ever, and it's like the transformation is magical. What does that potentially say about the effect of good NBA coaching over questionable college instruction?
For the sake of my blood pressure I've turned off the Memphis-Clippers game. Paul, Griffin, and Reggie Evans' flopping is seriously going to make me burst a fucking aneurysm. I hope opposing teams actually start beating the shit out of them now, since they're gonna fall down anyways. The acting is making these games literally unwatchable for me, which is a shame, because from a pure basketball standpoint they've been fantastic.
For the sake of my blood pressure I've turned off the Memphis-Clippers game. Paul, Griffin, and Reggie Evans' flopping is seriously going to make me burst a fucking aneurysm. I hope opposing teams actually start beating the shit out of them now, since they're gonna fall down anyways. The acting is making these games literally unwatchable for me, which is a shame, because from a pure basketball standpoint they've been fantastic.
The most I can muster is to just have score updates. If I actually have to see how the cheaters act their way to the free throw line I won't be able to sleep in an hour.
Why the fuck does Memphis completely change the way they play the game in the 4th quarter? I get that z bo can't really make it through a game but they shouldn't get this bad
Equal FT attempts doesn't mean one team isn't flopping more than another. The reason Memphis has theirs is because they have to play inside (because they can't shoot for shit from the outside). Obviously 60-70% of the Clips are legitimate as well, but there are enough that aren't to swing a game, not to mention the horrific *charges* and subsequent changes of possession.
I just don't understand why the NBA won't fine the fuck out of these acts after the games. I vehemently disagree that it's difficult to enforce; it is often blatantly obvious in replays. They are actively ruining the game - to a much larger degree than something like Bountygate has for the NFL.
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But for the <100 players we're talking about, who either came out of high school or were one and dones since the mid nineties, coming to the NBA has mostly been a good decision. Because they (again, with a few exceptions) were really good basketball players who went on to earn huge amounts of money playing basketball.
Like, you know what a dude who banked 5 million over the course of an average-length nba career can do when he's done? Whatever he fucking wants.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Unless they have show no ability to save or plan for their future, which is its own issue
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
What? So a guy who had no business being in the NBA is your shining example that the NBA should force players to stay in college? He played only 14 games and was just as much a waste of a draft spot as any HS player or One-and-done player that didn't pan out. From your description, Julius Hodge should never have played in the NBA, neither after HS, nor his freshman year or even as a college senior. All that this really proves is that the draft is a giant crap shoot and that NBA GM's are dumb and don't know what they are doing.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
There really does seem to be a tendency against washout and rise up in the NBA. How many times does a bad draft pick get told to fuck off after 2 seasons of marginal play? How often is a D-Leaguer picked up? If anything, I think the small roster sizes make it psychologically crippling to make changes to a roster.
It's a great example because it shows that while the player's interests are almost always better served by staying in school and showcasing their talents there, it doesn't necessarily fix the problem of raising the level of competition back to what it should be in the league, which is what the NBA has been trying to police with every new CBA. It's a great example because it shows that college can't always be a way of consolidating those competing interests, between the players, the teams, and the league.
If we're talking strictly about the player's own agency in all of this, their own interests, college is almost always the way to go, even in cases where they essentially end up defrauding some unlucky team of multiple millions of contractually obligated dollars and screwing them out of a pick on somebody else.
An issue which college obviously doesn't solve.
again
the players in question, as a group, have been highly successful. Not just financially for themselves, but as NBA players. If you buy into the widely-stated belief that the league's fortunes turn on the fate of its star players, well, a whole lot of the 'star players' currently in the league came either straight from HS or were one-and-done players.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I'm not even sure the league itself buys into this. Opinions on the subject certainly differ.
The best arguments I've seen involve a desire to raise the overall quality of play in the league, not just to make the path to stardom that much easier for the few players who are destined to be great regardless of where they play in their late teens.
In other words, this is less about the Kobe Bryants and Kevin Garnetts in the world, and far more about everybody else.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
What it does is provide further evidence that the arguments against Kerr are poor (i.e. things like "the players are somehow not getting a fair shake by being "forced" to go to college for a year"). If high school players are successful, if one-and-dones are generally equally successful, then why this resistance to one-and-dones in favor of high school declarations, particularly if it would have made the players better and improved the product on the floor?
the question is whether you think players who want to play pro ball and can should be prevented from doing so for 2+ years, at fairly tremendous risk to their own earning potential, because michael jordan is a shitty talent evaluator
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I would also add that from a practical standpoint, it is easier to raise the age limit a year than it is to find a new owner for the Bobcats, or else somehow teach Michael Jordan to NOT be one of the worst owners in league history.
If we're talking about labor law, that's one thing, but if we're talking about practical fixes to a complex problem, there is only so much that can really be done.
I mean, if a player sticks in the NBA past their rookie deal, it doesn't just mean that they lucked into a paycheck or something. I means that after watching them for 3-4 years, some NBA team thinks they're a competitive enough player to continue cutting checks to.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Kerr points out that the best players of the last generation did indeed have polished collegiate games and made an impact as rookies. Then, they went on to refine their games even more over the course of their respective NBA careers.
Here's a quick copy-paste:
What you've pointed out is exactly what Kerr is arguing--that good players have been incentivized to leap early, and their games suffer accordingly as does the entertainment product that is the NBA, and that good players in subsequent drafts do the same exact thing because they have been likewise incentivized. There is never a crop of truly great players who stayed in college to overtake them, because they are all offered the same financial incentives and act accordingly. And so the cycle continues on and on like this and the league suffers as a whole.
I also think you are deliberately trying to overstate the effect of collegiate development to try to enhance your point. Collegiate development is such that a great player can become a legend, and (as I pointed out) a borderline NBA talent can even get good enough to trick scouts. But it's rarely enough to make a bad player into a great one. It is all about developing tools and talents that the prospect already may have.
He was a 2-year talent out of Nevada who had all the athletic gifts to be one of the most dominant centers the league has ever seen. Yeah, it hasn't turned out that way, and he is *just now* starting to come into his own after his third year in the league.
It's a complicated issue and can vary depending on the player and the programs...
If he's reasonable with his salary demands and wants to stick around in Denver, he couldn't have picked a better place.
That front office has been working miracles the past couple of seasons, from fleecing New York in the Melo trade to signing and then promptly trading Nene, who looked almost unmovable.
Seems like they know what they're doing in Denver, and we'll have to wait and see if he is going to be a part of it.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
I brought him up as a good counter-example, TheBigEasy, because we're talking about this, not arguing about it in a courtroom. In fact, it's really, really hard to come down on just one side or the other on the issue, because exceptions abound and it's a challenging and nuanced problem that the league now faces.
I mean take a good look at McGee, he spent TWO years in college, not one, so he's a rough example of what the league is pushing for by raising the age limit. He nevertheless became a sort of clown on the Wizards after his rookie year.
Then you finally expose him to his first good coach, learning the game under the auspices of a quality NBA program for the first time ever, and it's like the transformation is magical. What does that potentially say about the effect of good NBA coaching over questionable college instruction?
****
Oh yeah, and I thought this was funny.
He hangs onto the game ball only so he can turn around and chuck it into the crowd when he's off camera. What??
This is kind of a bummer
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
nope
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I shit you not
This guy can't catch a break if it isn't in his knee
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
aw but clips are makin a comeback now!
about equal FTA
what the fuck, seriously
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Equal FT attempts doesn't mean one team isn't flopping more than another. The reason Memphis has theirs is because they have to play inside (because they can't shoot for shit from the outside). Obviously 60-70% of the Clips are legitimate as well, but there are enough that aren't to swing a game, not to mention the horrific *charges* and subsequent changes of possession.
I just don't understand why the NBA won't fine the fuck out of these acts after the games. I vehemently disagree that it's difficult to enforce; it is often blatantly obvious in replays. They are actively ruining the game - to a much larger degree than something like Bountygate has for the NFL.
Hope Griffin can play in the next game
Were you at the game?