What people seem to always fail to grasp is that affirmative action exists as the means to an end. The end being a society where we fully integrate our population so that it no longer seems stratified along racial lines and in doing so no longer needs affirmative action.
When I was in high school I worked at this burger joint, and we had one black dude working there. He gets fired for jumping the counter and punching a customer. Two weeks later, he's hired back on again because he was the only black dude that had applied at the store and we had to have at least one.
You know, Affirmative Action really doesn't say you have to have X ratio of race/race employees. In fact, quotas actually violate Affirmative Action.
You just have to ensure that the employment procedure is "race-blind," and provides for sufficient opportunity to the position's applicant pool indiscriminately.
Meh, I don't favor it, as far as policies go, but it's totally not responsible for most of the shit that gets dumped on it.
DrHookenstein on
"He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
The end being a society where we fully integrate our population so that it no longer seems stratified along racial lines and in doing so no longer needs affirmative action.
But some of those stratifications are cultural rather than the fault of racism.
DeaconBlues on
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HunterChemist with a heart of AuRegistered Userregular
What people seem to always fail to grasp is that affirmative action exists as the means to an end. The end being a society where we fully integrate our population so that it no longer seems stratified along racial lines and in doing so no longer needs affirmative action.
That's not necessarily true at all. I understand the "means to an end" philosophy but I don't support any and all forms of affirmative action. Especially when some of instances of it are more akin to a quota which is technically illegal.
Ok so I took a peek at the transcript and it appears he is making the same point he did about McNabb. He said McNabb was getting credit he didn't deserve because the media really wants to see a successful black quarterback. Now he's saying Grossman is getting unfairly dumped on and that a black quarterback wouldn't get picked on so hard by the media.
Eh, he sort of has a point because I agreed with him a little with the McNabb thing...but Grossman really does suck ass. I don't know. This really is a stupid debate.
Black quaterback dumped on by media: See: Anthony Wright, Byron Leftwhich, Dante Culpepper. Not a quarterback but still dumped on for stupidity: Terrel Owens, Ricky Williams, Chris Henry
Rush is an idiot trying to create a controversy where there is none. He wants a double standard? how about this:
How come Anne Coulter can say "the only thing I regret about the first WTC bombers is that they didn't blow up the New York Times Building." She later would correct her statement by saying: "Of course I wouldn't want any innocent bystanders in the building at the time, just the editors."
No one really questions this. can you iamgine the shit storm if someone like Michael Moore said "The only regret I have about 9-11 is the fact that Bush wasn't in the Pentagon at the time?"
I think it was Henry Clay who said "I can travel from Philadelphia to Chicago by the light of my effegies." It would be kind of like that.
How come Anne Coulter can say "the only thing I regret about the first WTC bombers is that they didn't blow up the New York Times Building." She later would correct her statement by saying: "Of course I wouldn't want any innocent bystanders in the building at the time, just the editors."
No one really questions this. can you iamgine the shit storm if someone like Michael Moore said "The only regret I have about 9-11 is the fact that Bush wasn't in the Pentagon at the time?"
I don't think anyone would be shocked at either comment because everyone knows those two are whackjobs?
Edit: I mean a better comparison would be looking at what happend to Trent Lott versus what didn't happen to Biden for making dumb statements that unintentionally came out sounding racist.
DeaconBlues on
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Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
Ok so I took a peek at the transcript and it appears he is making the same point he did about McNabb. He said McNabb was getting credit he didn't deserve because the media really wants to see a successful black quarterback. Now he's saying Grossman is getting unfairly dumped on and that a black quarterback wouldn't get picked on so hard by the media.
Eh, he sort of has a point because I agreed with him a little with the McNabb thing...but Grossman really does suck ass. I don't know. This really is a stupid debate.
Black quaterback dumped on by media: See: Anthony Wright, Byron Leftwhich, Dante Culpepper. Not a quarterback but still dumped on for stupidity: Terrel Owens, Ricky Williams, Chris Henry
Rush is an idiot trying to create a controversy where there is none. He wants a double standard? how about this:
How come Anne Coulter can say "the only thing I regret about the first WTC bombers is that they didn't blow up the New York Times Building." She later would correct her statement by saying: "Of course I wouldn't want any innocent bystanders in the building at the time, just the editors."
No one really questions this. can you iamgine the shit storm if someone like Michael Moore said "The only regret I have about 9-11 is the fact that Bush wasn't in the Pentagon at the time?"
I think it was Henry Clay who said "I can travel from Philadelphia to Chicago by the light of my effegies." It would be kind of like that.
You're right, nobody ever questions that renowned nutcase, Anne Coulter.
They just hand her Academy Awards and buckets of praise.
I may have those swapped by accident, though. Anne Coulter is the huge one, right?
DrHookenstein on
"He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
0
FortyTwostrongest man in the world The Land of Pleasant Living Registered Userregular
How come Anne Coulter can say "the only thing I regret about the first WTC bombers is that they didn't blow up the New York Times Building." She later would correct her statement by saying: "Of course I wouldn't want any innocent bystanders in the building at the time, just the editors."
No one really questions this. can you iamgine the shit storm if someone like Michael Moore said "The only regret I have about 9-11 is the fact that Bush wasn't in the Pentagon at the time?"
I don't think anyone would be shocked at either comment because everyone knows those two are whackjobs?
But there is an entire cottage industry set on destroying Michael Moore. Fox News, number one watched cable news in the nation demonizes him every chance they get. Talk radio he is the equivalent of the devil. Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
my mom loves limbaugh. when i was living at home, i would wake up every morning hearing that shitfucker's voice on the radio. it's giving me a headache just thinking about it.
after listening to some of his commentary, not just on the whole mcnabb thing, but on football in general, it's apparent that he doesn't know a fucking thing about the sport.
black qb's that suck don't get criticized for it. Vick? Leftwich? hello?
grossman get's criticized because he makes really, really horrible decisions on the field. he choked big time in the superbowl. he's a 4th year qb that played at most 3 games in a season before this year. it's not a surprise that he choked. now, if he's playing the same way next year... it might be time to look for a replacement.
rush is just a cunt for bringing race into the discussion at all.
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
How's three
NOW GO AWAY
Homeless on
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HunterChemist with a heart of AuRegistered Userregular
How come Anne Coulter can say "the only thing I regret about the first WTC bombers is that they didn't blow up the New York Times Building." She later would correct her statement by saying: "Of course I wouldn't want any innocent bystanders in the building at the time, just the editors."
No one really questions this. can you iamgine the shit storm if someone like Michael Moore said "The only regret I have about 9-11 is the fact that Bush wasn't in the Pentagon at the time?"
I don't think anyone would be shocked at either comment because everyone knows those two are whackjobs?
Edit: I mean a better comparison would be looking at what happend to Trent Lott versus what didn't happen to Biden for making dumb statements that unintentionally came out sounding racist.
To be fair, Joe Biden is just a media whore who doesn't think before speaking and Trent Lott waxed poetically about what kind of great America we would have today if a guy who supported segregation would have become president. Both stepped in dog shit, but one of them tracked it all through the house too.
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
How come Anne Coulter can say "the only thing I regret about the first WTC bombers is that they didn't blow up the New York Times Building." She later would correct her statement by saying: "Of course I wouldn't want any innocent bystanders in the building at the time, just the editors."
No one really questions this. can you iamgine the shit storm if someone like Michael Moore said "The only regret I have about 9-11 is the fact that Bush wasn't in the Pentagon at the time?"
I don't think anyone would be shocked at either comment because everyone knows those two are whackjobs?
Edit: I mean a better comparison would be looking at what happend to Trent Lott versus what didn't happen to Biden for making dumb statements that unintentionally came out sounding racist.
To be fair, Joe Biden is just a media whore who doesn't think before speaking and Trent Lott waxed poetically about what kind of great America we would have today if a guy who supported segregation would have become president. Both stepped in dog shit, but one of them tracked it all through the house too.
Biden on the Daily Show was hysterical. Biden has serious problems when it comes to knowing when to keep his mouth shut. And he is a total media whore.
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Saying Anne Coulter is a stupid crazy bitch is like shooting fish in a barrel. She's the conservative version of Hilary Clinton.
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Why do you want people that no one gives a damn about to say bad things about another person no one gives a damn about?
sarukun on
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FortyTwostrongest man in the world The Land of Pleasant Living Registered Userregular
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Saying Anne Coulter is a stupid crazy bitch is like shooting fish in a barrel. She's the conservative version of Hilary Clinton.
Replace stupid with coniving and you have a winner.
I think the main difference is that Hillary probably writes her own material.
DrHookenstein on
"He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
I long for the day when white quarterbacks get the recognition they deserve in the media. I mean, you don't see those guys get any endorsements at all.
Elki on
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FortyTwostrongest man in the world The Land of Pleasant Living Registered Userregular
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Why do you want people that no one gives a damn about to say bad things about another person no one gives a damn about?
The fact that WE don't care about them doesn't matter. They are the most popular news pesonalities in America right now and, unfortunately, people listen to them.
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Ok take your post and replace conservative with liberal and Coulter with Moore.
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Why do you want people that no one gives a damn about to say bad things about another person no one gives a damn about?
The fact that WE don't care about them doesn't matter. They are the most popular news pesonalities in America right now and, unfortunately, people listen to them.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that "people" listen to them.
Legal vegetables with the right to vote maybe, but no people.
sarukun on
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FortyTwostrongest man in the world The Land of Pleasant Living Registered Userregular
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Ok take your post and replace conservative with liberal and Coulter with Moore.
It's like magic!
Dude, plenty of people came down on Moore after his comments during the Oscars and for Farenhiet 9-11. After Moore's movie came out there are at least 3 other DVDs that were produced attacking him. Other than Franken's "Lies" book, how many mainstream attacks are there directly attacking Coulter?
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Ok take your post and replace conservative with liberal and Coulter with Moore.
It's like magic!
Dude, plenty of people came down on Moore after his comments during the Oscars and for Farenhiet 9-11. After Moore's movie came out there are at least 3 other DVDs that were produced attacking him. Other than Franken's "Lies" book, how many mainstream attacks are there directly attacking Coulter?
Although your point is well taken my friend.
Yeah, I know people came down on Moore, which is why it would be ridiculous to say nobody did.
The point is that they're all shrill douchebags who nobody really defends except other shrill douchebags.
You're biased towards the left side, which is fine, but it's silly to say that Coulter "gets a pass".
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Ok take your post and replace conservative with liberal and Coulter with Moore.
It's like magic!
Dude, plenty of people came down on Moore after his comments during the Oscars and for Farenhiet 9-11. After Moore's movie came out there are at least 3 other DVDs that were produced attacking him. Other than Franken's "Lies" book, how many mainstream attacks are there directly attacking Coulter?
Although your point is well taken my friend.
Yeah, I know people came down on Moore, which is why it would be ridiculous to say nobody did.
The point is that they're all shrill douchebags who nobody really defends except other shrill douchebags.
You're biased towards the left side, which is fine, but it's silly to say that Coulter "gets a pass".
Fair enough. but I think we can both admit the level of mainstream criticsism that Moore gets outweighs the amount that Coulter gets. Because she can cry "Liberal Media" and get 40% of the nation on her side autmatically.
I may lean left, but I am fairly moderate on many views and usually fall in the middle of the spectrum. But assholes like Limbaugh and her. Yeah I can do without these guys.
Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media, but of course the regular media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Ok take your post and replace conservative with liberal and Coulter with Moore.
It's like magic!
Dude, plenty of people came down on Moore after his comments during the Oscars and for Farenhiet 9-11. After Moore's movie came out there are at least 3 other DVDs that were produced attacking him. Other than Franken's "Lies" book, how many mainstream attacks are there directly attacking Coulter?
Although your point is well taken my friend.
Yeah, I know people came down on Moore, which is why it would be ridiculous to say nobody did.
The point is that they're all shrill douchebags who nobody really defends except other shrill douchebags.
You're biased towards the left side, which is fine, but it's silly to say that Coulter "gets a pass".
Fair enough. but I think we can both admit the level of mainstream criticsism that Moore gets outweighs the amount that Coulter gets. Because she can cry "Liberal Media" and get 40% of the nation on her side autmatically.
I may lean left, but I am fairly moderate on many views and usually fall in the middle of the spectrum. But assholes like Limbaugh and her. Yeah I can do without these guys.
No, she can't. She has high profile dudes on her side. So does the other side. It's basically the same shit.
sarukun on
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Posts
you bastard
now imma out of a soup commercial job
thanks a lot you no-good choker
"If you're going to play tiddly winks, play it with man hole covers."
- John McCallum
does the pope shit in the woods?
God bless America.
You just have to ensure that the employment procedure is "race-blind," and provides for sufficient opportunity to the position's applicant pool indiscriminately.
Meh, I don't favor it, as far as policies go, but it's totally not responsible for most of the shit that gets dumped on it.
But some of those stratifications are cultural rather than the fault of racism.
Bear Pope does
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
That's not necessarily true at all. I understand the "means to an end" philosophy but I don't support any and all forms of affirmative action. Especially when some of instances of it are more akin to a quota which is technically illegal.
Black quaterback dumped on by media: See: Anthony Wright, Byron Leftwhich, Dante Culpepper. Not a quarterback but still dumped on for stupidity: Terrel Owens, Ricky Williams, Chris Henry
Rush is an idiot trying to create a controversy where there is none. He wants a double standard? how about this:
How come Anne Coulter can say "the only thing I regret about the first WTC bombers is that they didn't blow up the New York Times Building." She later would correct her statement by saying: "Of course I wouldn't want any innocent bystanders in the building at the time, just the editors."
No one really questions this. can you iamgine the shit storm if someone like Michael Moore said "The only regret I have about 9-11 is the fact that Bush wasn't in the Pentagon at the time?"
I think it was Henry Clay who said "I can travel from Philadelphia to Chicago by the light of my effegies." It would be kind of like that.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
I don't think anyone would be shocked at either comment because everyone knows those two are whackjobs?
Edit: I mean a better comparison would be looking at what happend to Trent Lott versus what didn't happen to Biden for making dumb statements that unintentionally came out sounding racist.
You're right, nobody ever questions that renowned nutcase, Anne Coulter.
They just hand her Academy Awards and buckets of praise.
Michael Moore, not so much.
I may have those swapped by accident, though. Anne Coulter is the huge one, right?
But there is an entire cottage industry set on destroying Michael Moore. Fox News, number one watched cable news in the nation demonizes him every chance they get. Talk radio he is the equivalent of the devil. Anne Coulter gets a free pass for her wackiness from not only the conservative media. And any attempt to criticsize her is just "the liberal media" attacking her.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
after listening to some of his commentary, not just on the whole mcnabb thing, but on football in general, it's apparent that he doesn't know a fucking thing about the sport.
black qb's that suck don't get criticized for it. Vick? Leftwich? hello?
grossman get's criticized because he makes really, really horrible decisions on the field. he choked big time in the superbowl. he's a 4th year qb that played at most 3 games in a season before this year. it's not a surprise that he choked. now, if he's playing the same way next year... it might be time to look for a replacement.
rush is just a cunt for bringing race into the discussion at all.
The rolleyes provided does not adequately express my feeling about this post.
How's three
NOW GO AWAY
To be fair, Joe Biden is just a media whore who doesn't think before speaking and Trent Lott waxed poetically about what kind of great America we would have today if a guy who supported segregation would have become president. Both stepped in dog shit, but one of them tracked it all through the house too.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
How am I wrong? Show me one time when any conservative pundit criticsized her for any of her views. Show me where one conservative senator stood up and said she is wrong. Show me a conservative webiste that doesn't have a "Get Coulter's book FREE" link. Show me whree Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly any of them come down on Coulter for being the angry, bitter, useless harpie she is.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
Biden on the Daily Show was hysterical. Biden has serious problems when it comes to knowing when to keep his mouth shut. And he is a total media whore.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
Saying Anne Coulter is a stupid crazy bitch is like shooting fish in a barrel. She's the conservative version of Hilary Clinton.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
Why do you want people that no one gives a damn about to say bad things about another person no one gives a damn about?
Replace stupid with coniving and you have a winner.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
The fact that WE don't care about them doesn't matter. They are the most popular news pesonalities in America right now and, unfortunately, people listen to them.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
Ok take your post and replace conservative with liberal and Coulter with Moore.
It's like magic!
I wouldn't go so far as to say that "people" listen to them.
Legal vegetables with the right to vote maybe, but no people.
Dude, plenty of people came down on Moore after his comments during the Oscars and for Farenhiet 9-11. After Moore's movie came out there are at least 3 other DVDs that were produced attacking him. Other than Franken's "Lies" book, how many mainstream attacks are there directly attacking Coulter?
Although your point is well taken my friend.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
Yeah, I know people came down on Moore, which is why it would be ridiculous to say nobody did.
The point is that they're all shrill douchebags who nobody really defends except other shrill douchebags.
You're biased towards the left side, which is fine, but it's silly to say that Coulter "gets a pass".
Fair enough. but I think we can both admit the level of mainstream criticsism that Moore gets outweighs the amount that Coulter gets. Because she can cry "Liberal Media" and get 40% of the nation on her side autmatically.
I may lean left, but I am fairly moderate on many views and usually fall in the middle of the spectrum. But assholes like Limbaugh and her. Yeah I can do without these guys.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
No, she can't. She has high profile dudes on her side. So does the other side. It's basically the same shit.
Um...are you retarded?