My personal opinion on big events and how comics are being done likely will not please most of you, but here it is nontheless:
big events and reboots will NEVER, EVER bring in new readers to any big degree. Nor will the movies, cartoons, etc. You see, when a reboot happens, people like Didio think that it will unburden new readers with continuity, but the exact opposite is true. The only way to really keep new readers from getting confused is to trim the fat.
This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Here's what I wrote earlier today to a friend of mine:
Here's the thing about "reboots".
They don't erase history. It still exists.
I'm reading an article, here, about how in Flashpoint, Superman is unmarried, and when he becomes mainline DCU, he's going to be hooking up with Wonder Woman.
Which is annoying to me to begin with.
But ignore that. Look, now a new fan is going to pick up a Supes book, see this, say "Wait, I thought Superman was married to Lois Lane?", and what are you going to say? "Oh yeah, don't worry about it, that was in a different continuity, but then Flash got transported into a parallel world where everyone is a different version of themselves, and Superman was unmarried there, and then by editorial fiat that universe was merged with the regular universe and now Superman is unmarried. Comics, everybody!"
Don't use fantastical events to undo mundane events. It never works out in a satisfying way.
I don't see how adding yet ANOTHER twist in continuity - because it still exists, even it isn't "relevant" or referenced or whatever - is supposed to make things easier for for new readers.
To be honest, though, I'm also kind of bitter about chucking 70 years of history out the window. Continuity is not inherently bad; it's a tool that you might choose to use when telling a story. When you do use, it's not supposed to be an edifice readers have to scale before they can get to your story; it's supposed to be the firm and supporting foundation that you build your story on. Just because shit writers don't use it well doesn't mean you should axe the whole thing.
Now THAT is a surprise. At the, er, I think it was the 2009 NYCC, at the "State of the DCU" panel (or whatever it's called), DiDio shit on Giffen every chance he got. In front of the audience. Giffen basically did the same (only with much more finesse) in the recent Ambush Bug. That they are working together is very confusing to me.
I'm reading an article, here, about how in Flashpoint, Superman is unmarried, and when he becomes mainline DCU, he's going to be hooking up with Wonder Woman.
Which is annoying to me to begin with.
But ignore that. Look, now a new fan is going to pick up a Supes book, see this, say "Wait, I thought Superman was married to Lois Lane?", and what are you going to say? "Nope."
Don't use fantastical events to undo mundane events. It never works out in a satisfying way.
It's that simple. New readers will accept what you give them. That kind of thing only matters to us. It's only as complicated as you make it for them.
I remember picking up X-Men way back in the day during X-tinction Agenda. I caught up. It happens. The real point is compelling stories. Do they need a reboot to do that? Not really. But they feel it affords them more possibilities. Plus, hey, Captain Marvel will be fixed now probably. No muss, no fuss.
And will the reboot bring it new readers? Not under the old distribution model. But together with full digital? It could. That's the point. Both initiatives build on one another.
Giffen is super self deprecating, he was probably just getting some laughs.
Do you mean that DiDio was getting some laughs? I mean, well, OK, I guess that's possible, but it sure didn't feel that way to me. It looked like he was being incredibly disrespectful to a long-time creator right in front of him, and in front of what must have been like a thousand people.
Things like this and OMD give me a similar feeling to if I was watching a long-running TV serial and they suddenly said that seasons 2-4 and half of 6 didn't happen but everything else did and continued from there. It just fucks with my investment in the ongoing story. It would be one thing to truly end things and then start a fresh new story and universe. But fucking around with the stories and continuity that is still active really pisses me off. Instead of just telling new stories, they trample over the old ones and tamper with them instead.
Giffen is pretty awesome, and I think he's a funny dude. I wish Ambush Bug had a trade, though.
I want to say that I think some of you guys are freaking out about this a bit too much still, and to point out for the whateverth time that you should be looking back to Crisis on Infinite Earth to see how this is going to work, because it sounds very much in league with that "reboot." Not all continuity was erased, just some of the trickier or frowned upon stuff. It was done to give comics a new, modern face and to give new readers and fresher and simplified world to latch onto, and to give fans something new as well.
As for the new readers argument, I agree with a lot of what Sagroth said. A reboot might bring on some Marvel readers and maybe a handful of people who were intrested in the DCU to begin with, but you're going to get almost no-one from outside the realm of comics. The reboot seems to almost be cleaning house to attract fans from other publishers, to make existing fans excited about lines that have been lacking (Superman, JLA), and to create a world that publishes better to trade paperback, so when someone sees a movie they have a much clearer starting point if they wanted to pick up a few collections on a quick whim.
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Werewolf2000adSuckers, I know exactly what went wrong.Registered Userregular
I want to say that I think some of you guys are freaking out about this a bit too much still, and to point out for the whateverth time that you should be looking back to Crisis on Infinite Earth to see how this is going to work, because it sounds very much in league with that "reboot." Not all continuity was erased, just some of the trickier or frowned upon stuff. It was done to give comics a new, modern face and to give new readers and fresher and simplified world to latch onto, and to give fans something new as well.
And just to counterpoint this, the general negativity of the internet with comics aside, there have been many instances where this kind of picking and choosing has done nothing but create bad stories and pushed readers away.
Heroes Reborn was a year of bad stories, and from this CBR article links to discussions that by issue #3 & 4, the sales were back to the same levels that they were before Onslaught. Conversely, the wave effect of Jim Lee on Batman stayed with the book for a good while, paying off many returns in both sales and letting other creative teams reap some of the limelight.
You also have instances like One More Day, One Moment in Time, The Crossing, Heroes Reborn, the recent Iron Man brain reboot, The current Wonder Woman stuff, Zero Hour, Avengers Disassembled, Spider-Man Chapter One, and more. Bad stories trying to fiddle with history and continuity. While CoIE did have a relatively clean break, you have to remember that before Crisis they were flipping between Earth 1 and Earth 2 Superman on a regular basis in the comics, which really was confusing to a kid or any new readers. As I wrote previously, Onslaught and Heroes Return drove me away from comics the first time, and it took Morrison's New X-Men to bring me back along with the X2 sequel, so I get a little uneasy when Jim Lee is part of a group spearheading classic heroes.
I know it's easy to just say those who are expressing doubts about this are freaking out because "it's the internet," I would simply say we have seen this kind of stuff before, and we don't want to see the same results. There were rumblings about the end of the Spider-Marriage months before it happened, to the point fans at conventions were asking Quesada not to do it at X-Men specific panels. Informed guesses can be made without having to wait until the stuff is published and printed (look at everyone correctly guessing Cyborg would be a big player in the DCU post Flashpoint). Even ignoring the Bleeding Cool rumors, there is a history to comics that makes what will ultimately happen not that hard to follow.
As an example on this board, just from what people have written, Blank and Solar seem excited about this, having mostly been Marvel readers and only reading a few DC books. And that's great. Whereas Munch and I have kind of said this will push us away from DC if DC ultimately repeats what past history has shown to occur with this kind of stuff. You have what is essentially a zero sum game, and in order to get two new DC readers (not new comic readers, simply existing comic readers), you're pushing away existing fans and having to chop up continuity to do so. It's said that it's 8 times more expensive to get new customers than to keep current ones, and this kind of action is the comics equivalent of it.
Finally, I hope everything I just wrote turns out to be wrong, I really do. I'm just looking at past publishing decisions to make an estimated guess about where this relaunch goes. If Scott Snyder is still writing a book, I'll pick it up, sure. But I can see my DC list being about the same as my Marvel list, which 4-5 issues a month.
One thing I do wish DC did, simply for posterity and number crunching, was have day and date for all existing comics just to see what effect that would have, and make some easily accessible comics like they did for the Hold the Line launch in January. Because if the relaunch does work well, how do you know it was a result of the starting over or simply letting digital finally be a key part of the market?
As an example on this board, just from what people have written, Blank and Solar seem excited about this, having mostly been Marvel readers and only reading a few DC books. And that's great. Whereas Munch and I have kind of said this will push us away from DC if DC ultimately repeats what past history has shown to occur with this kind of stuff. You have what is essentially a zero sum game, and in order to get two new DC readers (not new comic readers, simply existing comic readers), you're pushing away existing fans and having to chop up continuity to do so. It's said that it's 8 times more expensive to get new customers than to keep current ones, and this kind of action is the comics equivalent of it.
Except I am probably more excited than them and read a ton of DC
whereas you and Munch just constantly complain about everything
I mean, name one character design that Jim Lee has ever done, that was any good?
I have an attachment to the old X-Men designs, but let's face it, those are terrible. Gambit's bright pink shirt and metal boots, which are so perfect for a thief? Cyclops' extraneous yellow bandolier? Jubilee and her pink glasses, complemented by a searing yellow trenchcoat?
Not to mention the Wild C.A.T.S. and Hush, a guy with bandages on his face, who wears a trenchcoat.
edit: And yes, I complain about everything, and not just really dumb comics.
I buy quite a few DC comics. Not as much as Marvel but that's not exactly because I am a whore for them. Well, that's not entirely true, but I would buy more DC books if they were interesting to me. If some of these turn out to be gems and give me a starting point then I think it'll be great.
But like I said do not fuck with the books I like. I will cut you sumbitches.
Also I'd like to see Batwoman finally.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
As an example on this board, just from what people have written, Blank and Solar seem excited about this, having mostly been Marvel readers and only reading a few DC books. And that's great. Whereas Munch and I have kind of said this will push us away from DC if DC ultimately repeats what past history has shown to occur with this kind of stuff. You have what is essentially a zero sum game, and in order to get two new DC readers (not new comic readers, simply existing comic readers), you're pushing away existing fans and having to chop up continuity to do so. It's said that it's 8 times more expensive to get new customers than to keep current ones, and this kind of action is the comics equivalent of it.
Except I am probably more excited than them and read a ton of DC
whereas you and Munch just constantly complain about everything
So it is still a break even (when you say tons of DC books that's maybe 10-15 a month?) I expect DC to win market and dollar share in September, because if they don't that will be just be terrible, but the real test will be where sales arrive in December. If DC is still beating Marvel at least in Market Share, then this whole thing would be a success and maybe it's just a difference in the existing stories and my tastes in comics.
I'm reading an article, here, about how in Flashpoint, Superman is unmarried, and when he becomes mainline DCU, he's going to be hooking up with Wonder Woman.
Which is annoying to me to begin with.
But ignore that. Look, now a new fan is going to pick up a Supes book, see this, say "Wait, I thought Superman was married to Lois Lane?", and what are you going to say? "Nope."
Don't use fantastical events to undo mundane events. It never works out in a satisfying way.
It's that simple. New readers will accept what you give them. That kind of thing only matters to us. It's only as complicated as you make it for them.
I remember picking up X-Men way back in the day during X-tinction Agenda. I caught up. It happens. The real point is compelling stories. Do they need a reboot to do that? Not really. But they feel it affords them more possibilities. Plus, hey, Captain Marvel will be fixed now probably. No muss, no fuss.
And will the reboot bring it new readers? Not under the old distribution model. But together with full digital? It could. That's the point. Both initiatives build on one another.
Except I have a sneaking suspicion they'd respond 'Man, that wasn't how it was in Smallville, I'm a Clois fan myself' and not bother with it at all.
I hope it doesn't end up like the beginning of the Ultimate line, where everyone is tripping over themselves to cram in the Ultimate version of a character/event. I also don't need to read a Superman or Batman origin again.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited June 2011
It's just a print Chiang made for Heroes Con. The dude's as good as Kaare Andrews in terms or original art like that. I don't know if he can do a monthly book (don't know what was with Green Arrow/Black Canary), but an arc of a series would be worthwhile.
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
Wow.
I don't like that at all.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
Whether I'll like the reboot depends on what happens to the minor characters. The A-list heroes change all the time, but tend to gravitate towards their iconic selves. I'm not worried about them. I'm worried about the minor, creator-driven characters.
I'm worried about Cassandra Cain. If they take this opportunity to finally kill her off, I will go to Didio's house and take a dump on his bed, I swear to god. And the same goes for the entire Young Justice cast. And Renee Montoya.
Honestly, I don't see this ending happily.
On the other hand, I would like to see Countdown unhappen.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
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This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Here's what I wrote earlier today to a friend of mine:
I don't see how adding yet ANOTHER twist in continuity - because it still exists, even it isn't "relevant" or referenced or whatever - is supposed to make things easier for for new readers.
To be honest, though, I'm also kind of bitter about chucking 70 years of history out the window. Continuity is not inherently bad; it's a tool that you might choose to use when telling a story. When you do use, it's not supposed to be an edifice readers have to scale before they can get to your story; it's supposed to be the firm and supporting foundation that you build your story on. Just because shit writers don't use it well doesn't mean you should axe the whole thing.
Now THAT is a surprise. At the, er, I think it was the 2009 NYCC, at the "State of the DCU" panel (or whatever it's called), DiDio shit on Giffen every chance he got. In front of the audience. Giffen basically did the same (only with much more finesse) in the recent Ambush Bug. That they are working together is very confusing to me.
It's that simple. New readers will accept what you give them. That kind of thing only matters to us. It's only as complicated as you make it for them.
I remember picking up X-Men way back in the day during X-tinction Agenda. I caught up. It happens. The real point is compelling stories. Do they need a reboot to do that? Not really. But they feel it affords them more possibilities. Plus, hey, Captain Marvel will be fixed now probably. No muss, no fuss.
And will the reboot bring it new readers? Not under the old distribution model. But together with full digital? It could. That's the point. Both initiatives build on one another.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
He is one of the most prolific and respected dudes at DC, even if his series keep failing. I mean the fact that he still gets them shows that.
Do you mean that DiDio was getting some laughs? I mean, well, OK, I guess that's possible, but it sure didn't feel that way to me. It looked like he was being incredibly disrespectful to a long-time creator right in front of him, and in front of what must have been like a thousand people.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
I want to say that I think some of you guys are freaking out about this a bit too much still, and to point out for the whateverth time that you should be looking back to Crisis on Infinite Earth to see how this is going to work, because it sounds very much in league with that "reboot." Not all continuity was erased, just some of the trickier or frowned upon stuff. It was done to give comics a new, modern face and to give new readers and fresher and simplified world to latch onto, and to give fans something new as well.
As for the new readers argument, I agree with a lot of what Sagroth said. A reboot might bring on some Marvel readers and maybe a handful of people who were intrested in the DCU to begin with, but you're going to get almost no-one from outside the realm of comics. The reboot seems to almost be cleaning house to attract fans from other publishers, to make existing fans excited about lines that have been lacking (Superman, JLA), and to create a world that publishes better to trade paperback, so when someone sees a movie they have a much clearer starting point if they wanted to pick up a few collections on a quick whim.
Tom Breevort, May 27th:
Tom Breevort, May 31st:
Truly, it is said: Christ, what an asshole.
EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/01/dc-relaunch-wildstorm/
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
Those aren't bad at all and the last one seems like something I would say if I was DC's competitor.
He seems to like the idea and be down with it if his formspring is anything to go by.
edit:
Actually it looks like he is mocking the people who are bitching about this.
Why keep checking Bleeding Cool
I can just make up stuff for you if you want
the last one doesn't but in the context of the first two maybe the intent is not what it seems
ah whatever. You have surprised me with your lack of smugness Breevort, you may live.
Truf
The DC Universe, as re-imagined by Geoff Johns and Jim Lee, is really horrifying enough.
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He also says he's there to sell Marvel comics. So it's not like people should even get their panties in a bunch over silly jokes or shit talking.
But comic fans are like sports fans and console lovers.
My favorite franchise is better than yours and I will kill you to prove my point.
And just to counterpoint this, the general negativity of the internet with comics aside, there have been many instances where this kind of picking and choosing has done nothing but create bad stories and pushed readers away.
Heroes Reborn was a year of bad stories, and from this CBR article links to discussions that by issue #3 & 4, the sales were back to the same levels that they were before Onslaught. Conversely, the wave effect of Jim Lee on Batman stayed with the book for a good while, paying off many returns in both sales and letting other creative teams reap some of the limelight.
You also have instances like One More Day, One Moment in Time, The Crossing, Heroes Reborn, the recent Iron Man brain reboot, The current Wonder Woman stuff, Zero Hour, Avengers Disassembled, Spider-Man Chapter One, and more. Bad stories trying to fiddle with history and continuity. While CoIE did have a relatively clean break, you have to remember that before Crisis they were flipping between Earth 1 and Earth 2 Superman on a regular basis in the comics, which really was confusing to a kid or any new readers. As I wrote previously, Onslaught and Heroes Return drove me away from comics the first time, and it took Morrison's New X-Men to bring me back along with the X2 sequel, so I get a little uneasy when Jim Lee is part of a group spearheading classic heroes.
I know it's easy to just say those who are expressing doubts about this are freaking out because "it's the internet," I would simply say we have seen this kind of stuff before, and we don't want to see the same results. There were rumblings about the end of the Spider-Marriage months before it happened, to the point fans at conventions were asking Quesada not to do it at X-Men specific panels. Informed guesses can be made without having to wait until the stuff is published and printed (look at everyone correctly guessing Cyborg would be a big player in the DCU post Flashpoint). Even ignoring the Bleeding Cool rumors, there is a history to comics that makes what will ultimately happen not that hard to follow.
As an example on this board, just from what people have written, Blank and Solar seem excited about this, having mostly been Marvel readers and only reading a few DC books. And that's great. Whereas Munch and I have kind of said this will push us away from DC if DC ultimately repeats what past history has shown to occur with this kind of stuff. You have what is essentially a zero sum game, and in order to get two new DC readers (not new comic readers, simply existing comic readers), you're pushing away existing fans and having to chop up continuity to do so. It's said that it's 8 times more expensive to get new customers than to keep current ones, and this kind of action is the comics equivalent of it.
Finally, I hope everything I just wrote turns out to be wrong, I really do. I'm just looking at past publishing decisions to make an estimated guess about where this relaunch goes. If Scott Snyder is still writing a book, I'll pick it up, sure. But I can see my DC list being about the same as my Marvel list, which 4-5 issues a month.
One thing I do wish DC did, simply for posterity and number crunching, was have day and date for all existing comics just to see what effect that would have, and make some easily accessible comics like they did for the Hold the Line launch in January. Because if the relaunch does work well, how do you know it was a result of the starting over or simply letting digital finally be a key part of the market?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMqHJrdXj0s&feature=related
Except I am probably more excited than them and read a ton of DC
whereas you and Munch just constantly complain about everything
Going to shrug my shoulders until I see what it's about. They should be pretty ripped in the end.
I have an attachment to the old X-Men designs, but let's face it, those are terrible. Gambit's bright pink shirt and metal boots, which are so perfect for a thief? Cyclops' extraneous yellow bandolier? Jubilee and her pink glasses, complemented by a searing yellow trenchcoat?
Not to mention the Wild C.A.T.S. and Hush, a guy with bandages on his face, who wears a trenchcoat.
edit: And yes, I complain about everything, and not just really dumb comics.
Everything, ever.
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But like I said do not fuck with the books I like. I will cut you sumbitches.
Also I'd like to see Batwoman finally.
like, he hits his comics because he loves them really
Same with Munch
but whatever.
Also wooooo Kevin Maguire
Forever.
noooooooo...
So it is still a break even (when you say tons of DC books that's maybe 10-15 a month?) I expect DC to win market and dollar share in September, because if they don't that will be just be terrible, but the real test will be where sales arrive in December. If DC is still beating Marvel at least in Market Share, then this whole thing would be a success and maybe it's just a difference in the existing stories and my tastes in comics.
Except I have a sneaking suspicion they'd respond 'Man, that wasn't how it was in Smallville, I'm a Clois fan myself' and not bother with it at all.
And 'fixed for the sane'? Condescending much?
Including the femullet?
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Yeah I could dig that outfit and hairstyle
That's a cool ass cover
I don't like that at all.
I love it
why
it's just a neat piece for a con
I'm worried about Cassandra Cain. If they take this opportunity to finally kill her off, I will go to Didio's house and take a dump on his bed, I swear to god. And the same goes for the entire Young Justice cast. And Renee Montoya.
Honestly, I don't see this ending happily.
On the other hand, I would like to see Countdown unhappen.