Oh man, if I had to base my opinion of the relaunch solely on the pictures of Geoff Johns and Jim Lee giving pizza to Scott Snyder waiting in line to get his comics signed
Oh man, if I had to base my opinion of the relaunch solely on the pictures of Geoff Johns and Jim Lee giving pizza to Scott Snyder waiting in line to get his comics signed
For some reason, I'm always surprised that Geoff Johns looks nothing like a successful comic book writer. Every other big shot comic writer seems to just get fat, but he looks like he works out and goes out to drink brews with his brahs on weekends.
I hate you all. I won't get to read the books until late tomorrow night.
Now I get to start removing myself from this thread because my books will be showing up later and later. w00t w00t.
Since this is so big, I wonder if the mods would allow me to start a new thread now that the books are hitting, and lock this one up. It'd be easier to contain the conversation about all 52 books that way, especially when so many of them are for more obscure characters, universe-spanning teams, or large characters that just generally don't have their own threads.
Much like the actual DC books, the only characters that have a strong following here are Batman and the Green Lanterns.
This also reminded me how much I loved 90's Morrison JLA, pretty much the only DC thing I read before coming to these forums, other than a little Flash and Kyle Rayner GL.
Shop wasn't scheduled to do a midnight release but I ran by earlier and the owner said he decided to do one so I ended up getting JL and Flashpoint tonight.
Flashpoint
Wasn't bad. Not great either. The whole event itself is kind of dumb in an event sense, but the story of Bruce/Barry/Thomas is really great and the end is pretty damn sad. Pieces of the alternate world were cool but the whole thing feels kind of worthless. Characters would show up and die 5 seconds later. Superman finally showing up was pretty damn great though.
Justice League
Not bad at all. Not the best comic in the world, but a pretty good start. Batman and Green Lantern take the spotlight, which would normal annoy me since Hal is a doucher. However, Johns has listened it seems and writes Hal like the biggest asshole in the world. It is like a less-insane ASBAR. Batman gets some sick burns in. The fact that we see Vic Stone prior to his Cyborging is nice, and I think he's going to have a great character arc. Superman's appearance at the end was fantastic. Jim Lee draws the new suit and a younger Clark really well. It is a little disappointing that we only see 2 Leaguers for more than a single page and I can see that annoying a new reader hoping to see Flash or something. I am excited to see Arthur and Barry joining the League. Overall, a solid B.
Really, Justice League reads like an archetypical superhero book. I mean this as a compliment. It is what the book should be right now and is refreshing after years of directionless wandering.
Wasn't bad. Not great either. The whole event itself is kind of dumb in an event sense, but the story of Bruce/Barry/Thomas is really great and the end is pretty damn sad. Pieces of the alternate world were cool but the whole thing feels kind of worthless. Characters would show up and die 5 seconds later. Superman finally showing up was pretty damn great though.
My god. That ending
with Bruce falling to his knees. Just perfect.
And I cannot wait for Justice League with everything said in here
The most notable feature of JL is that Johns is sticking to his word with replacing violence and shock value with humor in his books. The most violent thing is Batman's grapple- going through the
Parademon's
leg and it wasn't particularly violent at all.
The funniest bit of the issue is definitely this exchange between Bruce and Hal:
"Wait so what powers do you have anyways? You can't fly?"
"No."
"Super-Strength?"
"No."
"Well what can you-Wait, you're not just some guy in a bat costume are you?! Are you freaking kidding me?!"
Batman holds out Green Lantern's ring
"What's this do?"
"My ring? How the hell'd you get it off?"
"I don't see any buttons so I guess it works off of concentration. You weren't concentrating."
One thing I liked was how, for better or for worse, Hal really oozed Ryan Reynolds through his voice. Which is much better than his kind of vague "I am Top Gun!" attitude.
For the first issue of a team book with 7 members, it would have been nice to, you know, have them all in the book.
Bleeding Cool's reviewer made the same point last night, which was kind of a bizarre thing to behold. The writer straight-up said he liked the book a lot but that it somehow didn't feel "important enough" without all of the characters in it.
I guess it's a valid observation, but it completely fails to address the substance of the book that is there and isn't much in terms of criticism. I personally think it served very well as an introduction and I'm glad that Johns seems ready to let the story run its course without rushing to throw all the toys out there.
Edit: Also, not trying to say that you personally thought the book was good or bad because all of the members weren't in it.
Wow, he really is being written as Hal "Dick Move" Jordan.
Excellent.
I don't know.
He isn't the one doing the head checking this time around.
Al Baron on
0
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I was disappointed with #1. And I really wanted to like it, because for as much as DC screwed over Superman with this reboot and some of the other questionable moves, I wanted JL to be this book that really had everything going for it. The book read too much like Mark Millar's Justice League Ultimates. A book that eclipsed Avengers as the go-to comic book. But the way Batman and GL talked to one another felt forced, the book was decompressed and didn't make use of the extra pages, and I wasn't buying the ending:
Superman is more than likely mind controlled or something, but if for some reason that isn't the case Clark doesn't need to beat up GL in some kind of pissing match about who's the boss.
Jim Lee's art was good, but I have a strong feeling he's got a ghost penciller to keep on schedule. The Cyborg pages looked different from the GL/Batman stuff, bigger characters than what I've usually seen from Lee. He's used pencil assists before like during his WildCATS run so it's not something new, it just stood out compared to the first 10 or so pages.
If you never read a comic book before, I can see people liking this, although the lack of the other heroes is completely valid (especially when DC have said they weren't going to write for the trade with this relaunch, but this seems exactly like that). Even Meltzer's JLA #1 put the team in the first issue, even if they didn't do anything. One thing I'm going to do today is give it to a few coworkers to read to see what their impressions are.
For the first issue of a team book with 7 members, it would have been nice to, you know, have them all in the book.
Bleeding Cool's reviewer made the same point last night, which was kind of a bizarre thing to behold. The writer straight-up said he liked the book a lot but that it somehow didn't feel "important enough" without all of the characters in it.
I guess it's a valid observation, but it completely fails to address the substance of the book that is there and isn't much in terms of criticism. I personally think it served very well as an introduction and I'm glad that Johns seems ready to let the story run its course without rushing to throw all the toys out there.
Edit: Also, not trying to say that you personally thought the book was good or bad because all of the members weren't in it.
I'll admit, I'm basing a lot on the BC review*...but outside of what they were saying about the story (or lack thereof), it does seem...stupid...to have this huge relaunch, with the stated goal of appealing to new readers, and then go and leave 3/7 members out of the book. New readers who pick it up because of the hot woman or the guy in the red suit are going to feel totally ripped off.
*I haven't bought much from DC in a while, and I'm not planning on getting any of this half-assed reboot...but I might stick w/ Morrison stuff and GL trades.
EDIT: I mean half-assed literally. They should have done a clean break with everything instead of this whole "Batman and GL are mostly untouched, everything else is all-new" and "don't worry, your favorite stories all happened in the last 5 years, but completely different since most of the characters are brand-new."
Doctor Detroit on
0
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
I'll admit, I'm basing a lot on the BC review*...but outside of what they were saying about the story (or lack thereof), it does seem...stupid...to have this huge relaunch, with the stated goal of appealing to new readers, and then go and leave 3/7 members out of the book. New readers who pick it up because of the hot woman or the guy in the red suit are going to feel totally ripped off.
The only character outside of Batman and Superman that new readers would buy it for would be Wonder Woman maybe (and she's not showing up until issue #3)
Except this doesn't touch on that at all. It is a completely fresh faced and inexperienced Green Lantern meeting Batman, who is equally inexperienced. Their recent history doesn't matter at all.
I agree that more team members would have probably been a good idea, but the book itself isnt bad at all and shouldn't be held to some standard because it is the first book of the relaunch. No one said JL would be the most radical or changed book, just that it is the first book.
As one of the new readers DC is trying to bring in I didn't care that it did not have everyone in it. I actually prefer it that way. It's an origin story for the Justice League. It gave a good introduction to Batman and Green Lantern*, hinted at another member and promised some Superman in the next book. And hinted at the villain for the story. Now if the next three issues are also just Batman and GL I might have a problem with it.
Of course, I mostly get trades and prefer longer stories.
* As someone who has never been able to get into Green Lantern, a solid introduction to the character was important and the issue delivered that.
For the first issue of a team book with 7 members, it would have been nice to, you know, have them all in the book.
Bleeding Cool's reviewer made the same point last night, which was kind of a bizarre thing to behold. The writer straight-up said he liked the book a lot but that it somehow didn't feel "important enough" without all of the characters in it.
I guess it's a valid observation, but it completely fails to address the substance of the book that is there and isn't much in terms of criticism. I personally think it served very well as an introduction and I'm glad that Johns seems ready to let the story run its course without rushing to throw all the toys out there.
Edit: Also, not trying to say that you personally thought the book was good or bad because all of the members weren't in it.
I'll admit, I'm basing a lot on the BC review*...but outside of what they were saying about the story (or lack thereof), it does seem...stupid...to have this huge relaunch, with the stated goal of appealing to new readers, and then go and leave 3/7 members out of the book. New readers who pick it up because of the hot woman or the guy in the red suit are going to feel totally ripped off.
*I haven't bought much from DC in a while, and I'm not planning on getting any of this half-assed reboot...but I might stick w/ Morrison stuff and GL trades.
EDIT: I mean half-assed literally. They should have done a clean break with everything instead of this whole "Batman and GL are mostly untouched, everything else is all-new" and "don't worry, your favorite stories all happened in the last 5 years, but completely different since most of the characters are brand-new."
I have serious beef with that Bleeding Cool review, and I think the book is completely new reader-friendly even without all seven members of the Justice League. To be honest, it probably benefits immensely from now having too much going on.
Word. I mean, this has always been my stance. The Punisher can be mostly gritty, with moments of levity or dark humor. Ditto for Batman, or any other superhero that fits the grim avenger archetype. GCPD was a crime book, and not a superhero book. So, that too can and should be mostly gritty. Same with Checkmate, a book that was all about black-ops espionage stuff.
But, Captain Marvel? Wonder Woman? Superman? These are books that should be mostly upbeat, with occasionally poignant or dour stories.
Still, I have to point out that, when Rucka was able to team with JG Jones to produce a Wonder Woman OGN, he told a story about a girl avenging her sister who was drugged, raped, forced into prostitution, and eventually died from an overdose.
So, y'know. He's not entirely free of sin, when it comes to telling overwrought, gritty stories about traditionally bright superheroes.
Also, he helped kill Blue Beetle, and then made jokes about how he was never coming back, as he had a breeze blowing through his brain.
Also, he turned Fire into someone that jokes while burning enemy soldiers alive, and later revealed that she slept with at least one guy, just so she could get close enough to kill him.
Also, he had Max Lord insinuate that he was going to make Sasha Bordeaux have sex with him.
I think the problem with JLA is that it's going to take months to build up to the formation of the team, which the cover shows to be a foregone conclusion. Meanwhile, we have the heroes pursuing a villain who is a mystery to them, but not to the reader.
Since the reader knows what's going to happen ahead of time in regards to both events, there's nothing to anticipate.
I disagree. The title of the book is Justice League, you know that it is the Justice League. That is a foregone conclusion.
The appeal of the book is seeing the team actually form for the first time. You see Batman meet Green Lantern. You see a world that still doesn't know what the hell a superhero is.
It isnt a mystery or suspense story. It is a modern orgin for the Justice League. Saying there is nothing to anticipate is like saying Year One is bad because we know Batman becomes Batman or Birthright is bad because we know Clark becomes Superman. Or just about every superhero movie that isnt a sequel is bad because we know they become a superhero.
Word. I mean, this has always been my stance. The Punisher can be mostly gritty, with moments of levity or dark humor. Ditto for Batman, or any other superhero that fits the grim avenger archetype. GCPD was a crime book, and not a superhero book. So, that too can and should be mostly gritty. Same with Checkmate, a book that was all about black-ops espionage stuff.
But, Captain Marvel? Wonder Woman? Superman? These are books that should be mostly upbeat, with occasionally poignant or dour stories.
I'm with Grant Morrison, personally: 'You can say, “What if Superman was a drug abusing rapist?”, but it’s only a “What If?” because then it wouldn’t be Superman. The idea that is Superman doesn’t include those elements'. Taking it to an extreme there, but you get the general idea.
0
Sars_BoyRest, You Are The Lightning.Registered Userregular
Except this doesn't touch on that at all. It is a completely fresh faced and inexperienced Green Lantern meeting Batman, who is equally inexperienced. Their recent history doesn't matter at all.
I agree that more team members would have probably been a good idea, but the book itself isnt bad at all and shouldn't be held to some standard because it is the first book of the relaunch. No one said JL would be the most radical or changed book, just that it is the first book.
I still think you're too clouded by being someone who has read comics their entire life.
JL #1 should be held to a standard because it is the first book of the relaunch, it is the platform upon which DC is trying to attract the outside reader.
You're right, I probably am clouded since I do read comics. I can't give a completely clean slate opinion.
However, even with my prior knowledge, I dont think JL is bad. It is pretty good! It isnt the best comic in the world and may not be what some people were expecting but it tells a good story, and I think that is what people will want to read more than a clip show of League members. Plus it ends with
Superman vs. Batman
which is what every person who likes the characters but doesn't read comics wants to see from my experience.
I disagree. The title of the book is Justice League, you know that it is the Justice League. That is a foregone conclusion.
The appeal of the book is seeing the team actually form for the first time. You see Batman meet Green Lantern. You see a world that still doesn't know what the hell a superhero is.
It isnt a mystery or suspense story. It is a modern orgin for the Justice League. Saying there is nothing to anticipate is like saying Year One is bad because we know Batman becomes Batman or Birthright is bad because we know Clark becomes Superman. Or just about every superhero movie that isnt a sequel is bad because we know they become a superhero.
The difference between young Bruce Wayne/Clark Kent/Peter Parker and their mature counterparts is far greater than the difference between a Batman who doesn't know Green Lantern and a Batman who does know Green Lantern. With Birthright and Year One, we were seeing versions of familiar characters that we hadn't seen before. With this issue of JLA, Batman and GL are almost entirely unchanged except for the fact that they're meeting for the first time.
You also have cops shooting at them for no good reason, but Marvel's been doing stories like that for years.
Also, "origin story" isn't a genre until itself. Even origins need a measure of mystery, suspense, or some other compelling factor to sustain the reader's interest, especially if the story is taking place over several months.
Anyway, I'd prefer something like JLA: Year One, which gets the formation of the team out of the way early instead of expending time on the inevitable fights between heroes that don't realize they're on the same side.
Posts
I'd have to say this is the best thing
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/30/jim-lee-and-geoff-johns-hand-out-pizza-at-midtown-scott-snyder-lines-up/
it is the bitter pill that will lead to the relaunch
if it is good, awesome. If it isn't, well oh well let's read the new things.
I have to say, nothing too crazy happens, but it is really easy to get into. A lot of fun banter. Perfect for new readers.
That is, in fact, the best thing.
Based on this article, I'm adding Demon Knights, Stormwatch, and Men of War to my list. At the very least I'll buy the first issues.
Now I get to start removing myself from this thread because my books will be showing up later and later. w00t w00t.
Since this is so big, I wonder if the mods would allow me to start a new thread now that the books are hitting, and lock this one up. It'd be easier to contain the conversation about all 52 books that way, especially when so many of them are for more obscure characters, universe-spanning teams, or large characters that just generally don't have their own threads.
Much like the actual DC books, the only characters that have a strong following here are Batman and the Green Lanterns.
This also reminded me how much I loved 90's Morrison JLA, pretty much the only DC thing I read before coming to these forums, other than a little Flash and Kyle Rayner GL.
Flashpoint
Justice League
My god. That ending
And I cannot wait for Justice League with everything said in here
The funniest bit of the issue is definitely this exchange between Bruce and Hal:
"No."
"Super-Strength?"
"No."
"Well what can you-Wait, you're not just some guy in a bat costume are you?! Are you freaking kidding me?!"
Batman holds out Green Lantern's ring
"What's this do?"
"My ring? How the hell'd you get it off?"
"I don't see any buttons so I guess it works off of concentration. You weren't concentrating."
That personality was that of a cocky asshole, but it's an improvement. Especially since he doesn't live up to his own hype at all.
Excellent.
Bleeding Cool's reviewer made the same point last night, which was kind of a bizarre thing to behold. The writer straight-up said he liked the book a lot but that it somehow didn't feel "important enough" without all of the characters in it.
I guess it's a valid observation, but it completely fails to address the substance of the book that is there and isn't much in terms of criticism. I personally think it served very well as an introduction and I'm glad that Johns seems ready to let the story run its course without rushing to throw all the toys out there.
Edit: Also, not trying to say that you personally thought the book was good or bad because all of the members weren't in it.
Happy, smug Batman was fun.
Hal getting wrecked was cool.
Happy, smug Superman was also fun.
Needed to be a double issue, methinks.
And yes, I do believe the expectation of an average person is to have all the people on the cover inside the comic.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
Jim Lee's art was good, but I have a strong feeling he's got a ghost penciller to keep on schedule. The Cyborg pages looked different from the GL/Batman stuff, bigger characters than what I've usually seen from Lee. He's used pencil assists before like during his WildCATS run so it's not something new, it just stood out compared to the first 10 or so pages.
If you never read a comic book before, I can see people liking this, although the lack of the other heroes is completely valid (especially when DC have said they weren't going to write for the trade with this relaunch, but this seems exactly like that). Even Meltzer's JLA #1 put the team in the first issue, even if they didn't do anything. One thing I'm going to do today is give it to a few coworkers to read to see what their impressions are.
I'll admit, I'm basing a lot on the BC review*...but outside of what they were saying about the story (or lack thereof), it does seem...stupid...to have this huge relaunch, with the stated goal of appealing to new readers, and then go and leave 3/7 members out of the book. New readers who pick it up because of the hot woman or the guy in the red suit are going to feel totally ripped off.
*I haven't bought much from DC in a while, and I'm not planning on getting any of this half-assed reboot...but I might stick w/ Morrison stuff and GL trades.
EDIT: I mean half-assed literally. They should have done a clean break with everything instead of this whole "Batman and GL are mostly untouched, everything else is all-new" and "don't worry, your favorite stories all happened in the last 5 years, but completely different since most of the characters are brand-new."
The only character outside of Batman and Superman that new readers would buy it for would be Wonder Woman maybe (and she's not showing up until issue #3)
I agree that more team members would have probably been a good idea, but the book itself isnt bad at all and shouldn't be held to some standard because it is the first book of the relaunch. No one said JL would be the most radical or changed book, just that it is the first book.
Of course, I mostly get trades and prefer longer stories.
* As someone who has never been able to get into Green Lantern, a solid introduction to the character was important and the issue delivered that.
I have serious beef with that Bleeding Cool review, and I think the book is completely new reader-friendly even without all seven members of the Justice League. To be honest, it probably benefits immensely from now having too much going on.
Edit: If anyone's remotely interested, I wrote a more detailed response to Flashpoint and JL here: http://glunders.tumblr.com/post/9629549153/bravo-geoff-johns-bravo-flashpoint-5-and-justice
The gist of it is that I think this was all deliberately plotted and handled rather well, 7 members in issue 1 or not, but there's room to disagree.
Word. I mean, this has always been my stance. The Punisher can be mostly gritty, with moments of levity or dark humor. Ditto for Batman, or any other superhero that fits the grim avenger archetype. GCPD was a crime book, and not a superhero book. So, that too can and should be mostly gritty. Same with Checkmate, a book that was all about black-ops espionage stuff.
But, Captain Marvel? Wonder Woman? Superman? These are books that should be mostly upbeat, with occasionally poignant or dour stories.
Still, I have to point out that, when Rucka was able to team with JG Jones to produce a Wonder Woman OGN, he told a story about a girl avenging her sister who was drugged, raped, forced into prostitution, and eventually died from an overdose.
So, y'know. He's not entirely free of sin, when it comes to telling overwrought, gritty stories about traditionally bright superheroes.
Also, he helped kill Blue Beetle, and then made jokes about how he was never coming back, as he had a breeze blowing through his brain.
Also, he turned Fire into someone that jokes while burning enemy soldiers alive, and later revealed that she slept with at least one guy, just so she could get close enough to kill him.
Also, he had Max Lord insinuate that he was going to make Sasha Bordeaux have sex with him.
I should stop now, or I'll be here all day.
Tumblr Twitter
Since the reader knows what's going to happen ahead of time in regards to both events, there's nothing to anticipate.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
The appeal of the book is seeing the team actually form for the first time. You see Batman meet Green Lantern. You see a world that still doesn't know what the hell a superhero is.
It isnt a mystery or suspense story. It is a modern orgin for the Justice League. Saying there is nothing to anticipate is like saying Year One is bad because we know Batman becomes Batman or Birthright is bad because we know Clark becomes Superman. Or just about every superhero movie that isnt a sequel is bad because we know they become a superhero.
I'm with Grant Morrison, personally: 'You can say, “What if Superman was a drug abusing rapist?”, but it’s only a “What If?” because then it wouldn’t be Superman. The idea that is Superman doesn’t include those elements'. Taking it to an extreme there, but you get the general idea.
I still think you're too clouded by being someone who has read comics their entire life.
JL #1 should be held to a standard because it is the first book of the relaunch, it is the platform upon which DC is trying to attract the outside reader.
However, even with my prior knowledge, I dont think JL is bad. It is pretty good! It isnt the best comic in the world and may not be what some people were expecting but it tells a good story, and I think that is what people will want to read more than a clip show of League members. Plus it ends with
The difference between young Bruce Wayne/Clark Kent/Peter Parker and their mature counterparts is far greater than the difference between a Batman who doesn't know Green Lantern and a Batman who does know Green Lantern. With Birthright and Year One, we were seeing versions of familiar characters that we hadn't seen before. With this issue of JLA, Batman and GL are almost entirely unchanged except for the fact that they're meeting for the first time.
You also have cops shooting at them for no good reason, but Marvel's been doing stories like that for years.
Also, "origin story" isn't a genre until itself. Even origins need a measure of mystery, suspense, or some other compelling factor to sustain the reader's interest, especially if the story is taking place over several months.
Anyway, I'd prefer something like JLA: Year One, which gets the formation of the team out of the way early instead of expending time on the inevitable fights between heroes that don't realize they're on the same side.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation