Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
just played against a T on Shakuras where I opened with the 1gate 20 Nexus build. He opened 2rax expo but with a ton of marines and hardly any marauders, so he was able to force me to stay up my ramp for quite a while and sacrifice my Nexus.
Fortunately, I was doing the variation where I cut probes for 3 extra gates not 2, so I turned it into a 4gate and blitzed him over. Probably could have macro'd a bit better with the gates because I had a good few hundred minerals left after my final warp-in, but a win is a win.
Looks like he is a new account placing into Platinum with 5 straight placement wins, and has won a followup 9 games in a row since being placed into Platinum. Glad I could hand him his first loss.
just played against a T on Shakuras where I opened with the 1gate 20 Nexus build. He opened 2rax expo but with a ton of marines and hardly any marauders, so he was able to force me to stay up my ramp for quite a while and sacrifice my Nexus.
Fortunately, I was doing the variation where I cut probes for 3 extra gates not 2, so I turned it into a 4gate and blitzed him over. Probably could have macro'd a bit better with the gates because I had a good few hundred minerals left after my final warp-in, but a win is a win.
Looks like he is a new account placing into Platinum with 5 straight placement wins, and has won a followup 9 games in a row since being placed into Platinum. Glad I could hand him his first loss.
I was working on that build yesterday (mostly 3 gate version) and played Vari x3. He crushed it pretty hard with a 2 rax expand, made my sac my Nexus and could have just come up the ramp on one of the games. With better micro than I have maybe I could have held it but I'm thinking I need to scout for a reactor first and switch it up if I see it.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
a reactor first is the counter for this build
i'm finding that you don't do it on any map where the Terran has time to see the nexus and make a reactor first instead of tech lab. usually i scout cross positions for this reason first and see if they're there, if they are, i do it, if not, i do a normal 1gate expand.
Warning: Platinum level play below. Minerals floated, micro and scouting almost non-existent.
Experimenting with a new build vs Zerg. Many kinks to work out, but fun none the less. Skip to the 19:30 mark to witness how to rank up units quickly with only a few clicks. Enjoy!
MNC Dover on
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
I'm not using it because it is changing gamefiles but if blizzard eventually supported similar options it would be cool.
Reminds of fullbright Quake skins.
E: I also demand that blizzard make addons neutral once you lift off from them. So that ONE TIME IN THE HISTORY OF EVER someone does an awesome addon steal of someone's proxy starport that some how gives them the edge to win.
I've been using these textures for over a month now and love them. The game just looks so vivid. Apparently when I stream they cause zombie monkey to go nuts when he watches. Both of these are positive in my book.
Losing to high golds, that makes me really angry. As does playing long back and forth matches and losing in the end when I thought I had a shot at securing a win. Such a waste.
Edit - Well I guess 20min or so isn't that long of a match. Sure felt like it while playing though. =/
Just a couple comments from watching the third game.
- Your opening needs a bit of tweaking. Your first depot was too early, as was your Barracks. You had to cut SCVs twice to do it. Maybe it was nerves? I sometimes make that mistake. So with some tightening that will be a bit more efficient. Won't make a huge difference though.
- The key to TvZ is constant pressure. If you let your Zerg opponent do whatever they want, you'll be overrun for sure. Pressure doesn't necessarily mean trying to kill the Zerg's army. Something as simple as moving your army, clearing the towers and/or a few tumours, and then retreating will force the Zerg to make units instead of Drones. You just need to be really vigilant with your scouting so you can have your tanks sieged up if he attempts to kill your army.
- Your game-plan needs some work as well. If you're not going to do a very aggressive 1-base push, you need to be expanding a lot earlier. A really good build for both an early expansion and pressure is the 2-rax FE (Barracks at 12 and 14, no gas until after your expansion CC is started. Look to expand around 27ish or earlier). The build will test your multitasking, but it is very effective. Push with a couple SCVs and attempt to set up a bunker or two near his Hatchery at the nat. He'll have to pull drones to fight you off generally, which is a huge win for you. You'll want to avoid doing this if he goes Pool first, though you can certainly fake pressure. Another option is 4 Hellion pressure (Barracks into Factory, Reactor on Barracks, switch when Factory is done). From there you can transition into anything you want.
- A push between 9 and 10 minutes with 3-4 Siege Tanks, Marines with Stim, and maybe a Medivac is a very effective timing for denying a third, preventing a large mutalisk build-up, and preventing excessive droning. Try to hit that timing, and slow-push your way to his third (or if you can deny it), his natural. Avoid sieging on creep whenever possible, which means you'll need to scan to pop creep tumours.
Just a couple tips anyway. I'm not that good in TvZ myself, but my play in that match-up has improved by a large degree just by knowing a couple timings where the Zerg is vulnerable.
Hilariously I've practiced my opening BO quite alot - I thought 9 depot 11 rax 14 OC was the right timings. Opps.
Interesting stuff, sounds like I have -ALOT- to work on. Am I even doing anything right at all? =(
Out of curiosity, could some of this stem from the fact that I've played maybe 60ish ladder games in sc2 total and alot of the players I'm losing to have usually played hundreds? I feel like I have no game sense at all, even with scouting I have trouble deciding what to do, which tells me I don't really understand what's going on in the game.
DarkMecha on
Steam Profile | My Art | NID: DarkMecha (SW-4787-9571-8977) | PSN: DarkMecha
I'm not using it because it is changing gamefiles but if blizzard eventually supported similar options it would be cool.
Reminds of fullbright Quake skins.
E: I also demand that blizzard make addons neutral once you lift off from them. So that ONE TIME IN THE HISTORY OF EVER someone does an awesome addon steal of someone's proxy starport that some how gives them the edge to win.
I've been using these textures for over a month now and love them. The game just looks so vivid. Apparently when I stream they cause zombie monkey to go nuts when he watches. Both of these are positive in my book.
i saw new colours so beautiful that rainbows now make me vomit with disgust
Out of curiosity, could some of this stem from the fact that I've played maybe 60ish ladder games in sc2 total and alot of the players I'm losing to have usually played hundreds? I feel like I have no game sense at all, even with scouting I have trouble deciding what to do, which tells me I don't really understand what's going on in the game.
Yes and no. Just find a few of your games where your opponents are doing roughly the same builds. Watch what they are doing from their perspective, and it should let you know what they are doing fairly well. Lots of saved chrono and 2 gas? That's a 3gate expo if I've ever seen one. 2 gas before core? My money is on DTs or a 3gate/VR rush. 15hatch 15pool no gas? Droning like a maniac, won't attack anytime soon. 15hatch 15pool 15gas? He wants fast speedlings for map control, and can transition easily, keep scouting for more tells. Terran is downramp walling? There's something he doesn't want you to see. Could be a fast CC, could be a banshee build or a hellion drop. Solution to banshee and hellion is pretty much the same, stalkers in the mineral line. If it's an expo build, just deny him from leaving his ramp. 3gate contains are MURDER in the long run.
Also for production structures per base for terran, is it 3 + tech ?
Like if I'm on 1 base, I can support 3 rax and upgrades (say stim and +1 inf wep)?
If 2 base, 3 rax, 2 fact, 1 starport + tech?
What if I'm not doing any tech , for whatever reason - would it then be 4 structures? Also do I count reactor'd structures as 1 or 2 'production structures'? I'd imagine 2 but thought I'd ask.
DarkMecha on
Steam Profile | My Art | NID: DarkMecha (SW-4787-9571-8977) | PSN: DarkMecha
On a fully saturated base, you can afford to make 2 marauders, 2 marines, and 2 medivacs with each production cycle. (Once you've gotten your upgrades and hit saturation with workers). This means 3rax, 2tech/1reactor, and a reactored port.
Logically, this means that you can afford 6 rax and 2 ports on 2bases. But you want to add ghosts and upgrades, double ebays even. So you could comfortably produce of 5rax and 2port medivacs, with perfect macro that is. But you don't, and neither do I. So I make 8 rax, and 2 starports (well, I end up here anyway), because at some point, my minerals got too high and I needed to spend them on something. It's ALWAYS better to have too much production than not enough. You can always just not make a couple units while you do something else with your resources.
If you want to add tanks into that mix, you need to remember that they cost a lot of gas. Like, you can only afford 1 factory worth of siege tanks per base amounts of gas.
tl;dr Don't focus so much on number of buildings per base, it's always going to be subjective to what you're doing and what your opponent is doing. But DO focus on having at least 1 more than you need (assuming perfect macro) for the occasion that you are so focused doing something else you just plain forget.
I'm going to walk you through protoss builds and why things are tells.
4gate. Tells: 1gas, large amounts of pooled chrono, possible pylon missing. Reason: You need to save chrono to get the warpgate tech out as fast as possible. Pylon, this one is dependant, most times theyll make the pylon as they move out, but if you're in his base, and see only 2 pylons when there should be 3 (22ish supply, yours not his) assume proxy pylon. 1gas, most 4gate builds are cutting economy to make it work. So skimping on gas and making at most 1 or 2 sentries is what you're going to see.
3gate. Tells: 2nd gas after core, large amounts of pooled chrono, possible pylon missing. Reason: Again, he needs to save chrono to get warpgates out as fast as possible. If he wants to be aggressive, and he can with good FF control, he NEEDS warpgate tech. The 2nd gas coming after the core means he is keeping his economy intact while maximizing his army. Pylon, again, if he's being aggressive, it's going to be hidden somewhere near your base, IF it's missing. If not, he's just going to push out with his army and build pylons along the way.
DT rush/3gate VR. These builds generally have very similar openings, sometimes the 2nd gas will come after the core with the VR rush but not usually in my experience. Tells: 2nd gas before core, missing pylons, late gateways. In either case, the protoss doesn't want you to know what he's about to do, so hes going to hide his tech. If that 2nd or 3rd pylon isn't in his base, you can bet that he's proxying something. The late gateways come from him spending his money on the tech and then getting the gateways after the tech has started.
2/3gate robo. Gas after core. In my opinion, this is the most standard a protoss can play, and is the easiest to deal with. A 2gate robo won't be aggressive at all, and a 3gate robo will, but can be dealt with by bunkers easily. Tells, an observer in your base fairly quickly. If he's going collosi, he will make at most 1 sentry to deny early aggression, and then will pump out a fair amount of zealots while he is getting his collosi.
Phoenix builds: These are rare and really really micro intensive, don't expect this. If you do encounter it, make turrets and leave marines in your mineral lines and/or near constructing buildings. Expand when you see the first phoenix. Guard your mules!
Always save your third? (I scan at 5:30-6mins) scan for their base, warp gate should be finishing at that time, and scan according to where you know their pylons are! You'll know where pylons are because you scouted where he put them all with your worker. If you can, hold off on your 3rd and possibly 4th scan/mule around 6:30 because that is when DTs hit.
If you see an unusual amount of zealots, always always always think something fishy is up. And remember, a turret is never a bad thing. At worst, you deny him from camping an observer on your army and have access to upgrades. At best, his DT rush just got shut down.
Protosses. Correct me if I'm wrong with these timings.
If you are at a level where your skill is being well respected and you are getting offers to join certain teams, look for a team that can improve your skill even more with the right teammates. Money is worthless unless its earned from winning a major tournament. Salary, small sponsors and etc, if that is what you look for instead of the right team and team members that is best for you, might as well go work in wallmart.
He's talking to you, every team-hopping foreigner of the last 6 months!*
Really I feel like the biggest thing you can start to think about while playing, is the opponent's gas and where it's going. Eventually you might learn timings and such, but for me, that shit goes right out of my head as soon as the game starts. But gas is what makes SC2 go 'round, and if you don't see gas being spent, assume either:
1) You are missing something. Scout more!
2) They are saving up. Go pressure them right now, and expect some high-tech shenanigans in the near future.
Also, I have PM'd ZM about doing some gold Terran streaming for the Wood League. What are my options for screen capturing? I know everyone uses xsplit, but I'd rather not get tied to something that I'm going to have to pay for if I can help it. Are there any acceptable, free alternatives?
Hahah. I just played a 4v4 and used dark templars. All I would do is send them to each of the opponents mineral line. Then I played another and lost to a cannon rush:(. I'm gonna try doing more DT attacks at opponents mineral lines and hope I don't get rushed since I'm weak in the beginning.
sumwar on
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Submission for RotD, poor guy didn't stand a chance even if he had scouted.
That was some olympic-class ragequit bm by Bert. Truly exceptional.
Seriously, he so mad bro
Interesting rush there Tanner. Proxy zerg buildings are hilarious xD
I can't see it since I'm not at home, but the word "proxy" and "zerg" in the same sentence makes mig shed a tear of joy
unless it's proxy against zerg
then I cut you!
I cut you deep, meng!
MMMig on
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
I swear to god Tanner, when I get good at Terran i'm going to challenge you to a bo7, hype it as a crazy showmatch, then just 7rax you over and over and over
I swear to god Tanner, when I get good at Terran i'm going to challenge you to a bo7, hype it as a crazy showmatch, then just 7rax you over and over and over
Just bunker rush.
Fizban140 on
0
Seguerof the VoidSydney, AustraliaRegistered Userregular
I swear to god Tanner, when I get good at Terran i'm going to challenge you to a bo7, hype it as a crazy showmatch, then just 7rax you over and over and over
I haven't won against a 2 rax or blue flame hellions in over a month (not a single game in my 15-20/day).
Just do that.
Learn the first 6 minutes of a terran opener and auto win all day no matter how hard I fucking try.
I don't understand how there're terran players below masters league
Same goes for 4 gate
It's so fucking sad that I'm not exagerating
Good thing 50-60% of my matches are against Zerg, cause that matchup is so fucking fun
TannerMS on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I swear to god Tanner, when I get good at Terran i'm going to challenge you to a bo7, hype it as a crazy showmatch, then just 7rax you over and over and over
I haven't won against a 2 rax or blue flame hellions in over a month (not a single game in my 15-20/day).
Just do that.
Learn the first 6 minutes of a terran opener and auto win all day no matter how hard I fucking try.
I don't understand how there're terran players below masters league
Because not everyone has your weakness to 2rax or blue flame, sadly
Posts
Fortunately, I was doing the variation where I cut probes for 3 extra gates not 2, so I turned it into a 4gate and blitzed him over. Probably could have macro'd a bit better with the gates because I had a good few hundred minerals left after my final warp-in, but a win is a win.
Looks like he is a new account placing into Platinum with 5 straight placement wins, and has won a followup 9 games in a row since being placed into Platinum. Glad I could hand him his first loss.
No, they have more HP than Hydras.
Joe's Stream.
I was working on that build yesterday (mostly 3 gate version) and played Vari x3. He crushed it pretty hard with a 2 rax expand, made my sac my Nexus and could have just come up the ramp on one of the games. With better micro than I have maybe I could have held it but I'm thinking I need to scout for a reactor first and switch it up if I see it.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
i'm finding that you don't do it on any map where the Terran has time to see the nexus and make a reactor first instead of tech lab. usually i scout cross positions for this reason first and see if they're there, if they are, i do it, if not, i do a normal 1gate expand.
Experimenting with a new build vs Zerg. Many kinks to work out, but fun none the less. Skip to the 19:30 mark to witness how to rank up units quickly with only a few clicks. Enjoy!
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
I've been using these textures for over a month now and love them. The game just looks so vivid. Apparently when I stream they cause zombie monkey to go nuts when he watches. Both of these are positive in my book.
Hilariously I've practiced my opening BO quite alot - I thought 9 depot 11 rax 14 OC was the right timings. Opps.
Interesting stuff, sounds like I have -ALOT- to work on. Am I even doing anything right at all? =(
Out of curiosity, could some of this stem from the fact that I've played maybe 60ish ladder games in sc2 total and alot of the players I'm losing to have usually played hundreds? I feel like I have no game sense at all, even with scouting I have trouble deciding what to do, which tells me I don't really understand what's going on in the game.
i saw new colours so beautiful that rainbows now make me vomit with disgust
Yes and no. Just find a few of your games where your opponents are doing roughly the same builds. Watch what they are doing from their perspective, and it should let you know what they are doing fairly well. Lots of saved chrono and 2 gas? That's a 3gate expo if I've ever seen one. 2 gas before core? My money is on DTs or a 3gate/VR rush. 15hatch 15pool no gas? Droning like a maniac, won't attack anytime soon. 15hatch 15pool 15gas? He wants fast speedlings for map control, and can transition easily, keep scouting for more tells. Terran is downramp walling? There's something he doesn't want you to see. Could be a fast CC, could be a banshee build or a hellion drop. Solution to banshee and hellion is pretty much the same, stalkers in the mineral line. If it's an expo build, just deny him from leaving his ramp. 3gate contains are MURDER in the long run.
So the correct timings for the very basic opening are:
10 Depot
12 Rax
13 Ref
15 OC
15 'rine (simultaneously w/ OC upgrade)
Right?
Also for production structures per base for terran, is it 3 + tech ?
Like if I'm on 1 base, I can support 3 rax and upgrades (say stim and +1 inf wep)?
If 2 base, 3 rax, 2 fact, 1 starport + tech?
What if I'm not doing any tech , for whatever reason - would it then be 4 structures? Also do I count reactor'd structures as 1 or 2 'production structures'? I'd imagine 2 but thought I'd ask.
Let's say you are going bio ball against protoss.
On a fully saturated base, you can afford to make 2 marauders, 2 marines, and 2 medivacs with each production cycle. (Once you've gotten your upgrades and hit saturation with workers). This means 3rax, 2tech/1reactor, and a reactored port.
Logically, this means that you can afford 6 rax and 2 ports on 2bases. But you want to add ghosts and upgrades, double ebays even. So you could comfortably produce of 5rax and 2port medivacs, with perfect macro that is. But you don't, and neither do I. So I make 8 rax, and 2 starports (well, I end up here anyway), because at some point, my minerals got too high and I needed to spend them on something. It's ALWAYS better to have too much production than not enough. You can always just not make a couple units while you do something else with your resources.
If you want to add tanks into that mix, you need to remember that they cost a lot of gas. Like, you can only afford 1 factory worth of siege tanks per base amounts of gas.
tl;dr Don't focus so much on number of buildings per base, it's always going to be subjective to what you're doing and what your opponent is doing. But DO focus on having at least 1 more than you need (assuming perfect macro) for the occasion that you are so focused doing something else you just plain forget.
4gate. Tells: 1gas, large amounts of pooled chrono, possible pylon missing. Reason: You need to save chrono to get the warpgate tech out as fast as possible. Pylon, this one is dependant, most times theyll make the pylon as they move out, but if you're in his base, and see only 2 pylons when there should be 3 (22ish supply, yours not his) assume proxy pylon. 1gas, most 4gate builds are cutting economy to make it work. So skimping on gas and making at most 1 or 2 sentries is what you're going to see.
3gate. Tells: 2nd gas after core, large amounts of pooled chrono, possible pylon missing. Reason: Again, he needs to save chrono to get warpgates out as fast as possible. If he wants to be aggressive, and he can with good FF control, he NEEDS warpgate tech. The 2nd gas coming after the core means he is keeping his economy intact while maximizing his army. Pylon, again, if he's being aggressive, it's going to be hidden somewhere near your base, IF it's missing. If not, he's just going to push out with his army and build pylons along the way.
DT rush/3gate VR. These builds generally have very similar openings, sometimes the 2nd gas will come after the core with the VR rush but not usually in my experience. Tells: 2nd gas before core, missing pylons, late gateways. In either case, the protoss doesn't want you to know what he's about to do, so hes going to hide his tech. If that 2nd or 3rd pylon isn't in his base, you can bet that he's proxying something. The late gateways come from him spending his money on the tech and then getting the gateways after the tech has started.
2/3gate robo. Gas after core. In my opinion, this is the most standard a protoss can play, and is the easiest to deal with. A 2gate robo won't be aggressive at all, and a 3gate robo will, but can be dealt with by bunkers easily. Tells, an observer in your base fairly quickly. If he's going collosi, he will make at most 1 sentry to deny early aggression, and then will pump out a fair amount of zealots while he is getting his collosi.
Phoenix builds: These are rare and really really micro intensive, don't expect this. If you do encounter it, make turrets and leave marines in your mineral lines and/or near constructing buildings. Expand when you see the first phoenix. Guard your mules!
Always save your third? (I scan at 5:30-6mins) scan for their base, warp gate should be finishing at that time, and scan according to where you know their pylons are! You'll know where pylons are because you scouted where he put them all with your worker. If you can, hold off on your 3rd and possibly 4th scan/mule around 6:30 because that is when DTs hit.
If you see an unusual amount of zealots, always always always think something fishy is up. And remember, a turret is never a bad thing. At worst, you deny him from camping an observer on your army and have access to upgrades. At best, his DT rush just got shut down.
Protosses. Correct me if I'm wrong with these timings.
Here is a TvZ I just got out of. I won, so I must be doing something better, but I'll let you guys be the judge of that:
In fact none of these things are correct, please tell your mammalian fellows to disregard this information.
Carry on.
PvZ: 3 gate expo
PvT: 1 gate expo
PvP: lose
Gareth is streaming some zerg ladderings
Hey, stop stealing my builds.
He's talking to you, every team-hopping foreigner of the last 6 months!*
http://fnatic.com/feature/8870/Spunky-quot-Our-team-is-probably-the-strongest-team-overall-quot.html
EDIT: Also, Sheth is gonna do a charity streaming marathon, thread here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=233195
EDIT le deux: Tommorow, apparently, and he's got a backer to match what he makes. Pretty damn cool.
1) You are missing something. Scout more!
2) They are saving up. Go pressure them right now, and expect some high-tech shenanigans in the near future.
Also, I have PM'd ZM about doing some gold Terran streaming for the Wood League. What are my options for screen capturing? I know everyone uses xsplit, but I'd rather not get tied to something that I'm going to have to pay for if I can help it. Are there any acceptable, free alternatives?
SC2: KillerCodeMk | LoL: KillerCodeMonky | FFXIV: Shea Demvas (Sargantas)
Ghost in the Linkshell Item Requisitioning
Let me know you are from PA, otherwise I will likely ignore you.
Word on the street is FXO, we'll see what happens.
i yearn for the day when builds are standardish enough that it matters
also having two geysers makes it less than optimal
(T)MMA vs (P)Sage
(Z)Check vs NEXBuja
(T)MarineKing vs (P)Smart
(T)Ryung vs (Z)Leenock
(T)Genius vs (T)Rain
(T)sC vs (T)Gaebyul
(T)SuperNoVa vs (P)IMYonghwa
(Z)DongRaeGu vs (T)Taeja
And the Ro16 is supposed to start today. But I have no fuggin' idea if it's going to be broadcast or not.
I didn't see Polt vs. Top, too sleepy after MMA/MKP. How was it/who won?
Submission for RotD, poor guy didn't stand a chance even if he had scouted.
That was some olympic-class ragequit bm by Bert. Truly exceptional.
Best BM I've seen in a long while. A true champion of rage.
Seriously, he so mad bro
Interesting rush there Tanner. Proxy zerg buildings are hilarious xD
instead Steal This Build, mma's tvz
woooohoooooo
hopefully it's really good like things the plottster does is
i'm pretty sure i grammar'd a bad there
I can't see it since I'm not at home, but the word "proxy" and "zerg" in the same sentence makes mig shed a tear of joy
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Just bunker rush.
Shit I do the same thing
(also, that PvP entry should have been 1/3 gate expo if we follow the pattern ;-))
I haven't won against a 2 rax or blue flame hellions in over a month (not a single game in my 15-20/day).
Just do that.
Learn the first 6 minutes of a terran opener and auto win all day no matter how hard I fucking try.
I don't understand how there're terran players below masters league
Same goes for 4 gate
It's so fucking sad that I'm not exagerating
Good thing 50-60% of my matches are against Zerg, cause that matchup is so fucking fun
Because not everyone has your weakness to 2rax or blue flame, sadly