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A Song of Ice and Fire - Here Be Spoilers. Book People! Discuss the TV Show Here!

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Posts

  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
    The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".

    I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.

    If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.

    Tamin on
  • Fizban140Fizban140 Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    I don't see it like that at all, wasn't that just what Robbert said and Ned didn't confirm?

    Fizban140 on
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  • HyphyKezzyHyphyKezzy The Best On MarsRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Here's the geography question that's been bothering me as I work through my reread. Where in the fuck is Bravos at? I sure can't find it on any of the maps in the books and it's been bothering me because

    book 4 spoilers
    I can't figure out why Sam and Aemon end up there on their way to Oldtown. Isn't Bravos across the narrow sea? It's like they're taking some sort of great circle route or something.

    HyphyKezzy on
    steam_sig.png
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Nah. In the episode, Robert is guessing names, but Ned is the one to say the name.

    Tamin on
  • Fizban140Fizban140 Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    HyphyKezzy wrote: »
    Here's the geography question that's been bothering me as I work through my reread. Where in the fuck is Bravos at? I sure can't find it on any of the maps in the books and it's been bothering me because

    book 4 spoilers
    I can't figure out why Sam and Aemon end up there on their way to Oldtown. Isn't Bravos across the narrow sea? It's like they're taking some sort of great circle route or something.

    Pretty sure it is really close to The Wall.

    Fizban140 on
    533570-1.png
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    HyphyKezzy wrote: »
    Here's the geography question that's been bothering me as I work through my reread. Where in the fuck is Bravos at? I sure can't find it on any of the maps in the books and it's been bothering me because

    book 4 spoilers
    I can't figure out why Sam and Aemon end up there on their way to Oldtown. Isn't Bravos across the narrow sea? It's like they're taking some sort of great circle route or something.

    On the HBO map ([strike]and I'll confirm the various ones I have[/strike] None of my maps show the eastern continent)
    The only Night's Watch castle that opens on the sea is Eastwatch. Which means they have to sail down the eastern side of the continent. Depending on the width of the Narrow Sea, that puts them right on course for Braavos, which is far north of Pentos.

    Tamin on
  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    shryke wrote: »
    The Septons speech in AFFC gives you a good idea of the kind of ridiculousness inherent in a medieval army.

    I only just started reading AFFC. I read the first 3 a while ago.

    Around what page is that part? I've heard about it over and over again. I want to know when to expect it.




    Anyway, if it takes another 5 years to finish the next book, and another 5 years after that, and if it takes 2 years between each season of the show, the show won't have a lot of downtime.

    But if they manage a season every year, or every year and a half, there's going to be maybe year wait between season 6 and book 6. And then like 5 years until they are even able to start a Season 7.

    JamesKeenan on
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    That line of thinking disregards that the first 3 books only took 2 years per - GOT - 1996; COK - 1998; SOS - 2000.

    The 5 / 6 year delays only started with AFFC.

    There's a decent chance the remaining books will fall back into the two year cycle.

    Which puts us at 2014 or so for the The Winds of Winter (and Storm of Swords on TV), then 2016 for A Dream of Spring (with ADWD airing).

    edit: I keep thinking I'm doing something wrong with the math there. But I'm tired.

    Tamin on
  • hailthefishhailthefish Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    As was mentioned before, that was probably part of the deal with doing the series, to get the books out in a reasonable timeframe.

    hailthefish on
  • HyphyKezzyHyphyKezzy The Best On MarsRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Tamin wrote: »
    HyphyKezzy wrote: »
    Here's the geography question that's been bothering me as I work through my reread. Where in the fuck is Bravos at? I sure can't find it on any of the maps in the books and it's been bothering me because

    book 4 spoilers
    I can't figure out why Sam and Aemon end up there on their way to Oldtown. Isn't Bravos across the narrow sea? It's like they're taking some sort of great circle route or something.

    On the HBO map ([strike]and I'll confirm the various ones I have[/strike] None of my maps show the eastern continent)
    The only Night's Watch castle that opens on the sea is Eastwatch. Which means they have to sail down the eastern side of the continent. Depending on the width of the Narrow Sea, that puts them right on course for Braavos, which is far north of Pentos.
    Yeah, I followed that they left Eastwatch and out past Skagos. And I guess if Braavos is in the middle of the apparently aptly named Narrow Sea then that makes sense. For whatever reason I just got the impression they had gone all the way across. At which point my best guess put it near the Isle of Cedars near Slavers Bay because of the mention of wood scarcity due to the Braavosi refusing to cut their natural wind break. But I just went back and skimmed that chapter and it was pines not cedars. So you're probably right.

    HyphyKezzy on
    steam_sig.png
  • ThornMartinThornMartin Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    The HBO map that I have on my wall shows Braavos on a small island off the northern most part of the Eastern Continent across from the Fingers.

    ThornMartin on
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    That's pretty much the map I was using.

    I want to say that they were blown off course during the events of AFFC, and ended up close enough to have no other choices.

    Tamin on
  • HyphyKezzyHyphyKezzy The Best On MarsRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Oh wow, that helps a lot! With the maps of the north and south split in the books I visualized the south shifted farther west. You can really see how they need to swing out around The Fingers in that one putting Braavos right in their path. Thank you.

    HyphyKezzy on
    steam_sig.png
  • DozingDragonDozingDragon Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Sea travel is more difficult during Autumn, and they intended to go all the way to Oldtown. More dangerous travel, so less ships are going to be plying their trade.

    Each Free City dwarfs King's Landing (the largest city in the Seven Kingdoms), so it stands to reason if they intended to book a ship for that long of a voyage their best shot at finding a ship going that way would be in a Free City, and Braavos was the closest.

    DozingDragon on
  • OneEyedJackOneEyedJack Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Tamin wrote: »
    Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
    The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".

    I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.

    If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.

    not a supporter huh?

    sheesh, its pretty much a given at this point.

    OneEyedJack on
    1089605-1.png?1281667433
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I'm sure it is. And then I think on all the other "givens" we expected, and remember how those turned out.


    edit: let me say, I won't be surprised in the slightest if it's true.

    Tamin on
  • Fizban140Fizban140 Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    Basically that, not sure why people still try and expect things in these books. I read them, and cry regardless.

    Fizban140 on
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  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Just finished my first read-through on AFFC and I have a question.
    The Pate guy Sam was talking to in the last chapter, Faceless Man yes?

    Also had a little laugh when I read the bit at the end where GRRM says to look out for Dance next year, and the note is dated 2005.

    Aether on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Tamin wrote: »
    I'm sure it is. And then I think on all the other "givens" we expected, and remembered how those turn out.

    Actually, when Martin heavily foreshadows something, it tends to pay off. Despite all the praise/scorn Martin gets for being willing to kill any character, major events are always built up and are always totally logical.

    Hachface on
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Aether wrote: »
    Just finished my first read-through on AFFC and I have a question.
    The Pate guy Sam was talking to in the last chapter, Faceless Man yes?

    Also had a little laugh when I read the bit at the end where GRRM says to look out for Dance next year, and the note is dated 2005.

    And by 'laugh', you mean 'cry'.
    also yes, re-read the prologue

    @Hachface - yeah. It's not a popular opinion, so I try to avoid airing it. There's no evidence supporting my opinion, and plenty supporting the popular.

    Tamin on
  • Fizban140Fizban140 Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    There is also plenty of evidence that this is all just Hodor's dream and there is little to none against it.

    Fizban140 on
    533570-1.png
  • Hank_ScorpioHank_Scorpio Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Are there any paperback versions besides what's included in the amazon.com 4-set? I just got it in for 15 bucks and it's in the shitty mass market small paperback book version. With the paper that's all grayed out, feels like sandpaper.

    Hank_Scorpio on
  • Fizban140Fizban140 Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    Just rent the hardcover, save a ton of money and they are really good quality.

    Fizban140 on
    533570-1.png
  • KhaczorKhaczor Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    My mom finished the latest episode and hasn't the read the book even though she is in love with the TV series.
    Ned's death
    crushed her and its funny hearing her try to make predictions of what'll happen in the future.

    I'm looking on all this with maniacal glee.

    Khaczor on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    The following quote tree is cross-posted from the TV thread.
    devCharles wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    So even though I knew it was coming, and expected the huge reaction from episode 9, how do you guys think this will affect future seasons of the show? There is a reason shows don't do this kind of thing. I know season 2 is definitely happening, but do you think this will affect whether or not there is a season 3 by hemorrhaging viewers?
    Funny you should ask. I just watched ep. 9 with my wife, and it turned her off the series. She's going to watch the season finale, but I'll likely be watching any subsequent seasons alone.
    Her complaint, and I think it will likely be a common one among many casual viewers, is that she had grown to really like Ned, despite his faults, and didn't like how he died. She's afraid that this will set the tone for the series going forward, and she's not particularly interested in getting pissed off on a regular basis.

    I'll be curious to see what ratings are like next year. I think that a lot of viewers who haven't read the books are likely to drift away from this show.

    I've had friends who have felt that way from the books as well. It's entirely possible. I think it will possibly make up for it by appealing to the people that don't want to read the books, but still like the story/characters/presentation and so on.

    I know a lot of people who said they would give up reading the series, and I myself felt like quitting after
    the Red Wedding
    , but they all came back. They always come back. :)

    Hachface on
  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Hachface wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    I'm sure it is. And then I think on all the other "givens" we expected, and remembered how those turn out.

    Actually, when Martin heavily foreshadows something, it tends to pay off. Despite all the praise/scorn Martin gets for being willing to kill any character, major events are always built up and are always totally logical.

    Not really. Sometimes things just happen.

    JamesKeenan on
  • DotDotDashDotDotDash Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Tamin wrote: »
    Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
    The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".

    I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.

    If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.

    not a supporter huh?

    sheesh, its pretty much a given at this point.
    I think a lot will be answered when Barristan is a POV character. When he said he had a bunch of stuff to tell Dany; if Jon Snow is her nephew, that would be the first thing to say. Plus he would have to know; half the kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy.

    DotDotDash on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Hachface wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    I'm sure it is. And then I think on all the other "givens" we expected, and remembered how those turn out.

    Actually, when Martin heavily foreshadows something, it tends to pay off. Despite all the praise/scorn Martin gets for being willing to kill any character, major events are always built up and are always totally logical.

    Not really. Sometimes things just happen.

    What "just happened"?

    All the major "twists" or "suprises" of the series are hinted or telegraphed or the like. That's what makes it work. It's surprising, but it still makes perfect sense.

    shryke on
  • Darth MilkDarth Milk Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Hachface wrote: »
    The following quote tree is cross-posted from the TV thread.
    devCharles wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    So even though I knew it was coming, and expected the huge reaction from episode 9, how do you guys think this will affect future seasons of the show? There is a reason shows don't do this kind of thing. I know season 2 is definitely happening, but do you think this will affect whether or not there is a season 3 by hemorrhaging viewers?
    Funny you should ask. I just watched ep. 9 with my wife, and it turned her off the series. She's going to watch the season finale, but I'll likely be watching any subsequent seasons alone.
    Her complaint, and I think it will likely be a common one among many casual viewers, is that she had grown to really like Ned, despite his faults, and didn't like how he died. She's afraid that this will set the tone for the series going forward, and she's not particularly interested in getting pissed off on a regular basis.

    I'll be curious to see what ratings are like next year. I think that a lot of viewers who haven't read the books are likely to drift away from this show.


    I've had friends who have felt that way from the books as well. It's entirely possible. I think it will possibly make up for it by appealing to the people that don't want to read the books, but still like the story/characters/presentation and so on.

    I know a lot of people who said they would give up reading the series, and I myself felt like quitting after
    the Red Wedding
    , but they all came back. They always come back. :)


    The only part that really had me about to give up on the series as a whole was:
    The part where you're led to believe Theon had killed Bran & Rickon. Yeah, I know, you didn't see it actually happen so chances are it didn't etc... But with how much Martin had been shitting on the Starks up to that point it was still enough to invoke the nerdrage.

    Darth Milk on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Darth Milk wrote: »
    The only part that really had me about to give up on the series as a whole was:
    The part where you're led to believe Theon had killed Bran & Rickon. Yeah, I know, you didn't see it actually happen so chances are it didn't etc... But with how much Martin had been shitting on the Starks up to that point it was still enough to invoke the nerdrage.
    I find Rickon's situation to be the saddest in the book. Maybe it's because I have a son around the same age, but it's really heartbreaking to see a kid that age go through the trauma he's experienced.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Modern Man wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    I get that power is about who holds it. And on top of that that the Lannisters have had the power since the beginning of the series.

    Doesn't mean that they aren't all traitors for going against the king's decree / law.
    As Littlefinger said, it's only treason if you lose. The United States was founded by traitors, after all.

    Westeros' political system is inherently unstable, and Robert Baratheon was only on the throne because his house committed treason against the previous king.

    Which is what makes Ned's fervent desire to maintain the technically legal line of sucession so odd. It's not like putting Renly on the throne versus Stannis or setting himself up as the de facto ruler would have been a blow to some ancient and established status quo. The Baratheon dynasty was 19 years old and had no particular claim to the throne, other than the fact that Robert was really good at war. Ned didn't have much of a problem overthrowing the existing order once, when it became clear that doing so was what was best for the realm. I never really understood why he all of a sudden had a hard on for the status quo.

    The key difference here that hasn't really been touched on in the show is that he didn't join Robert's Rebellion, Robert (and Jon Arryn) started the rebellion pretty much for Ned. After Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, he demanded that Ned be sent to him and Jon and Robert said "fuck that" and thats how the revolution started.

    I guess Robert was the de facto leader since he was so charasmatic but I'd always understood that it was called "Robert's Rebellion" simply because he ended up being King through his distant ancestral links to the Targaryen line.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • the Togfatherthe Togfather Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Wow. It's amazing to see the TV thread start treading close to some of the theories that are out there, especially since the hints were left out of the show.
    Someone threw out the possibility of Shae as an unknown Targ due to the candle scene. That is of course ridiculous, but the very next post said that she also fit the description of Jon's mother and how that would be a great reason for Ned to refuse telling Robert about her. Can't tell if it's a secret bookite trying to be mega clever, but if not...interesting to see them getting somewhat close via a completely different path.

    the Togfather on
    The night is dark and full of terrors.
    twit feed
  • EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Actually regarding Shae
    I kind of get the feeling, after watching the series, that she's could be of house Martell or something.

    Ego on
    Erik
  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Isn't Shae
    way too young to be Jon's mother?

    Tarantio on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    yes

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    I get that power is about who holds it. And on top of that that the Lannisters have had the power since the beginning of the series.

    Doesn't mean that they aren't all traitors for going against the king's decree / law.
    [/I]As Littlefinger said, it's only treason if you lose. The United States was founded by traitors, after all.

    Westeros' political system is inherently unstable, and Robert Baratheon was only on the throne because his house committed treason against the previous king.

    Which is what makes Ned's fervent desire to maintain the technically legal line of sucession so odd. It's not like putting Renly on the throne versus Stannis or setting himself up as the de facto ruler would have been a blow to some ancient and established status quo. The Baratheon dynasty was 19 years old and had no particular claim to the throne, other than the fact that Robert was really good at war. Ned didn't have much of a problem overthrowing the existing order once, when it became clear that doing so was what was best for the realm. I never really understood why he all of a sudden had a hard on for the status quo.

    The key difference here that hasn't really been touched on in the show is that he didn't join Robert's Rebellion, Robert (and Jon Arryn) started the rebellion pretty much for Ned. After Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, he demanded that Ned be sent to him and Jon and Robert said "fuck that" and thats how the revolution started.

    I guess Robert was the de facto leader since he was so charasmatic but I'd always understood that it was called "Robert's Rebellion" simply because he ended up being King through his distant ancestral links to the Targaryen line.

    I think Ned was also haunted by the brutality during the sacking of King's Landing, and that the events of Robert's Rebellion soured him on the notion of right by conquest.

    Hachface on
  • WappaduWappadu Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Didn't Ned support Robert because he was the eldest Baratheon and that family had the most Targaryen blood out of the major houses? I wonder if Ned would have supported Rhaegar and tried to end the rebellion if Jaime had acted sooner in taking out Aerys.

    Ned didn't push for Viserys to take the throne as the next Targaryen in line, which is a fatal flaw in his Baratheon royal blood ties reasoning. I must be remembering it wrong.

    Wappadu on
  • CadmusCadmus Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    I get that power is about who holds it. And on top of that that the Lannisters have had the power since the beginning of the series.

    Doesn't mean that they aren't all traitors for going against the king's decree / law.
    As Littlefinger said, it's only treason if you lose. The United States was founded by traitors, after all.

    Westeros' political system is inherently unstable, and Robert Baratheon was only on the throne because his house committed treason against the previous king.

    Which is what makes Ned's fervent desire to maintain the technically legal line of sucession so odd. It's not like putting Renly on the throne versus Stannis or setting himself up as the de facto ruler would have been a blow to some ancient and established status quo. The Baratheon dynasty was 19 years old and had no particular claim to the throne, other than the fact that Robert was really good at war. Ned didn't have much of a problem overthrowing the existing order once, when it became clear that doing so was what was best for the realm. I never really understood why he all of a sudden had a hard on for the status quo.

    The key difference here that hasn't really been touched on in the show is that he didn't join Robert's Rebellion, Robert (and Jon Arryn) started the rebellion pretty much for Ned. After Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, he demanded that Ned be sent to him and Jon and Robert said "fuck that" and thats how the revolution started.

    I guess Robert was the de facto leader since he was so charasmatic but I'd always understood that it was called "Robert's Rebellion" simply because he ended up being King through his distant ancestral links to the Targaryen line.

    Robert was in love with and betrothed to Ned's sister. Rhaegar ran off with her, Brandon demanded her return so Arys killed Brandon and Rickard. Robert was just as ready to go to war as Ned was but Robert was more impulsive and raised as a leader, Ned was raised to serve his brother.

    Long story short, it was called Roberts rebellion because Robert was doing it with or without Ned and Robert was going for the throne, Ned just wanted justice.

    Cadmus on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    well I'm saying is that the rebellion started when Aers demanded Jon Arryn give Ned up, so Ned didnt really have a choice about going along.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    DotDotDash wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
    The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".

    I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.

    If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.

    not a supporter huh?

    sheesh, its pretty much a given at this point.
    I think a lot will be answered when Barristan is a POV character. When he said he had a bunch of stuff to tell Dany; if Jon Snow is her nephew, that would be the first thing to say. Plus he would have to know; half the kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy.
    The thing is, Barristan probably doesn't know the whole story. He may know that a baby was coming (I still think R+L were married...otherwise who has the authority to make Jon a legitimate heir?)...but I don't think he can be SURE that the bastard Ned claimed was actually born in the Tower of Joy.

    Doctor Detroit on
This discussion has been closed.