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Boss shooting me down
XenoZergie
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
As a bit of background, I am an engineer with a small company in NoVA. I have been with the company for almost 5 years, I've passed my FE exam, and I've been getting ready to take the PE exam. I can describe those exams in more detail but it's easy enough to Google them.
Last Wednesday I had a 40 minute phone conversation with my boss (who has been out of town for the past couple weeks), wherein he informed me that he doesn't think I'm ready to take the PE.
I think I would've taken it better if he hadn't also said things like "I can't give you a problem without already having an idea of the answer" or "You aren't able to figure out what the client really wants". He also strongly implied that he won't fill out the paperwork I need him to unless I wait until the test in April of next year.
Needless to say, I am fairly resentful (also angry and depressed) about the issue, not least of which because I was really stressed trying to get all my paperwork in on time (it's due the 20th if I wanted to take the test this year) and that's now wasted effort. Even though it pains me, I am willing to wait until next year if that's what it takes to get my boss to sign everything. At least it gives me more study time?
However, this has sort of crystallized an issue I've had for a while: I am not sure if I want to work at my job anymore. I am underpaid, underutilized, mismanaged, and I don't get any meaningful feedback on my work. My boss's diatribe over the phone was probably the first real performance review I've had in the almost 5 years I've been here, and if he was really that dissatisfied with my work, I needed to have heard that years ago so I could've been working on my problem areas.
I've been looking at a couple of other options, but I think I would have a very hard time getting my PE in the future if I don't stick it out here until I've got it.
Last Wednesday I had a 40 minute phone conversation with my boss (who has been out of town for the past couple weeks), wherein he informed me that he doesn't think I'm ready to take the PE.
I think I would've taken it better if he hadn't also said things like "I can't give you a problem without already having an idea of the answer" or "You aren't able to figure out what the client really wants". He also strongly implied that he won't fill out the paperwork I need him to unless I wait until the test in April of next year.
Needless to say, I am fairly resentful (also angry and depressed) about the issue, not least of which because I was really stressed trying to get all my paperwork in on time (it's due the 20th if I wanted to take the test this year) and that's now wasted effort. Even though it pains me, I am willing to wait until next year if that's what it takes to get my boss to sign everything. At least it gives me more study time?
However, this has sort of crystallized an issue I've had for a while: I am not sure if I want to work at my job anymore. I am underpaid, underutilized, mismanaged, and I don't get any meaningful feedback on my work. My boss's diatribe over the phone was probably the first real performance review I've had in the almost 5 years I've been here, and if he was really that dissatisfied with my work, I needed to have heard that years ago so I could've been working on my problem areas.
I've been looking at a couple of other options, but I think I would have a very hard time getting my PE in the future if I don't stick it out here until I've got it.
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I'm out several hundred bucks every time I apply to take the test, and I could in theory ask my company to reimburse me for the money. *shrug*
That said, if you were unable to do that, then it's your bosses fault. If he is specifically deciding not to give you the harder work or does the work ahead of time, that is his own problem and does not speak to anything but his incompetence as a manager.
Let me guess, if you take and pass the test, they're required per your contract or something to give you a pay increase and a change in title and fill your old position?
Ideally, you should change jobs every couple of years or so. This increases your salary much quicker. If you stay at one place, you'll get a small annual raise if you're lucky. But if you switch jobs often, you can give the potential new employer your salary expectations (higher than your current job) and if they accept, go back to your current employer and say, "Match this offer or I'm out of here".
You can hold these companies to ransom. I've done this loads of times. And take all these times when you've been treated poorly as bargaining tools. "Remember that time when you made me work through my lunch? Well, you're going to have to pay me for that missed lunch now, with interest, or I'm out of here."
If you have them over the proverbial barrel and you're a great employee, they'll pay. Otherwise, just take the other offer. It's win/win.
This is what is stopping you?
Are you going to fail the test? If there's a chance you're going to fail the test and you're fine with that since it isn't coming out of your pocket, then your boss isn't exactly wrong here.
If you're confident you're going to pass this motherfucker and the only thing holding you back is the personal investment of "hundreds of dollars", cowboy up and write out them a check.
When you get your professional certification certifying you as a bon-a-fide big deal, you can get a new job with a better boss.
I was studying like hell for the PE, and around 2 weeks before the test, my boss makes an offhand comment about how sometimes there are people you just don't want to be engineers. Of course, I was in the "having nightmares about failing the test" mode, so that comment...well, it didn't really help. Luckily for me in the end he did fill out all the necessary paperwork, but there was a noticeable delay that pissed me off.
Has your boss explained why he doesn't think you're ready? As a junior engineer with a PE, you still shouldn't be the sole engineer working on projects, even at a small company, so there should be at least one other person around to check your work regardless, that's just good quality control. I've had my PE for almost 2 years now and I've never even been close to being the main engineer on a job.
You've got a couple options here. First, your ability to study for the exam should have no bearing on your job, so if you take it and pass, you wouldn't have to apply for it again. You may need to wait on the paperwork if your boss is going to be a jerk, but he can't stop you from taking the test - just from getting your license. So, if you think you're ready to take the test, do it.
I'm assuming this is for Civil Engineering, as that's what I am, and if the regulations are the same for what you do and for where you are, you just need three licensed, registered engineers that you've worked with/under to vouch for you, not necessarily your boss. In my time working before I took the PE, I'd only had two direct bosses, but I'd done work for another PE, and he vouched for me as well. So if your boss is being a stickler on this, see if any of the other PEs you've done work for in the past will vouch for you.
Are you preparing for the October test? Anecdotally I've heard that the April test is easier, and that's the one I passed, so it may be worth waiting. Also, you get the results for the October test right around Christmas, which, if you don't pass, can really, really suck. Course, if you do pass, it's a great present
Good luck! It's a rough test, and I'm glad you're thinking about it this far in advance.
The short answer is sort of.
I will honestly say that I did a poor job negotiating my original salary and other bits of my contract. I have received multiple statements from higher ups that I would receive a pay increase with additional qualifications.
Those same higher ups have also been promising for a couple years that they would be hiring someone to fill my position and bump me up. This of course has yet to happen.
Ugh, the thread exploded and I'm trying to reply to several people but "server is busy" keeps eating it.
I am actually a mechanical engineer but yes, the test is the same.
I already have my three PE references well in hand; the part I need my boss to sign off is the Verification of Experience Form that must be completed by whoever was your supervisor during that period.
I am/was preparing for the October test, yes. The April test does have an entire extra month of study time before it I noticed.
There are reasons to not take the PE (for instance, a company just wants you stamping shit and you don't want to), but it sounds like you are prepared and have the actual experience.
Going to try putting the pressure on my boss tomorrow to sign the forms.
If he still won't give in, I might try to have his boss (who is a VP; I mentioned we are a small company) to sign it.
I'm going to suggest a different tactic, if you don't mind.
As another engineer, who is also looking to take the ME PE exam in the not-too-distant future, I want to make sure that you understand that your boss has every right to say you're not ready for the exam. It doesn't mean that you're not technically capable of passing, or using your newfound license responsibly, but it can be anything from he thinks you lack maturity or the capability to manage/oversee large projects, or that your inter/intrapersonal skills are lacking, or that he has some other obscure reason that he thinks you need another six months of experience.
So instead of pulling what will be probably seen as whining, ask your supervisor calmly and directly why exactly he doesn't think that you're ready for the exam and don't leave his office until you get an answer.
I guess it varies specifically state by state, but yes - if his boss is a PE and has reservations, it would be unethical and cause for censure if he allowed someone he considered unready to take the exam.
Moreover, when someone says "You're not ready" for something, your first reaction should always be to ask Why and keep asking Why until you get an answer.
I mentioned in the OP the reasons he gave in the phone conversation. I'm not really sure why I would get a different answer asking him in person.
I mean, I can give it a shot, but he has already established his lack of management skills by waiting this long to give me useful feedback.
EDIT:
In VA, you are required to have references from three PEs which have known you for at least a year in addition to the verification of experience signed by your supervisor.
Although my boss is a PE as well, whoever signs your verification of work is not allowed to also be a reference. I would imagine this is to prevent a conflict of interest and make sure that other PEs have vetted your work.
Since all of the other PEs I asked were more than happy to provide me with references, I can only assume that my boss is obstructing me for personal rather than professional reasons.
I apologize, I misunderstood that particular paragraph.
But be honest with yourself, are you having problems with lack of guidance from your boss or do you in reality need more guidance than other people in your position? Some people do, and that doesn't make you a bad engineer (far from it!). Are you responsible for managing anyone's work but your own?
If you're legitimately needing more guidance than others then work with that, improve on it, take the exam next year. If you're not reacting viscerally with anger at a perceived slight, then it's probably time to move on to a position where you're being used better.
Part of being an engineer in a position of responsibility is being able to take criticism and improve yourself from it; pushing ourselves to learn more, to do things better is the expectation as you move up the chain of leadership.
E: to address your last point, I don't know what state you're in but WA application has this little gem at the end of the employment verification form
Our new guy who has been working here for only a couple months came by my cube just the other day to comment on how little structure and guidance our company has.
I should note that the new guy is older than me by at least a couple years, and is also looking to take his PE soon. This is just anecdotal of course, but if this engineer with more experience than me (certainly more than I would get in the next six months anyway) is also stymied by the lack of guidance, then that tends to indicate there may be an actual problem.
I do not manage anyone's work but my own, although I have done a lot of design and calculation checking for my supervisor and a couple other engineers. As I said, upper management (the aforementioned VP) has stated several times the intent to promote me and have me manage a new hire, but that has yet to happen.
EDIT:
I said right here I'm in Virginia.
VA had that same comment at the end of the FE application; there is a similar statement on the PE reference forms but nothing on the verification of experience.
If you decide to take the test then tell him straight out. Thank him for his feedback and let him know that you think your ready. Then ask him to sign whatever paperwork is needed. If he refuses then think about going to hr or a VP.
And I'm not trying to be mean here, but your reaction to this wasn't what a good engineer's should be. As Usagi said, your reaction should be why why why until you know or you have received information to figure it out. What said may have been perfectly valid, but you didn't take it as an opportunity to learn.
Saying that you may just be coming in here to vent. Small engineering companies all have this problem. It may be time to move to a larger one where they specifically have a program to get your PE.
Satans..... hints.....
I'm no engineer and i don't know what PE licensure means entirely, but if it's a test it would seem to me that if you can pass it, then you should have the certification. Not be hamstrung by someone with potential ulterior motives, because of their opinion. I mean, i get that they don't want to clog the system with applicants constantly failing (like CPA's or something), but this system seems a tad flawed.
I told my boss this and that I would be willing to wait if he had a strong, honest objection to me not taking the test in October. I then handed him the forms to sign and he said he'd sign them.
Since he did not actually reiterate what his objection is, I don't know if I actually will wait. However, I figure I might as well get the application turned in, and then decide what to do if/when the licensing board approves me to take the exam.
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I'm not sure if it's the same in VA as it is in AZ, but we weren't even allowed to bring in our own pencils - they provided mechanical pencils with 0.7 lead. I'd heard horror stories of people having to deal with constantly breaking their lead along with trying to keep up with their six-minutes per problem, so I weaned myself off my 0.9 lead to 0.7 while I was studying. It's not something you'd think is a big deal, but it can make a stressful test that much more frustrating.