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[SW:TOR]OMG PRE-ORDER OMG! (Wait Collector's Edition is $150? D:) Pre-Order Details in OP

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    ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    After watching the leaked Smuggler video, I find myself increasingly ambivalent about the class. It initially interested me because of the cover mechanic, which had me picturing a tactical combat experience, but it's clear that you can just drop cover wherever, reducing it to a glorified mandatory stance trigger.

    Yeah, I have a similar reaction. He also didn't seem that critical to the fight either. I couldn't tell how much damage he was doing, but he seemed a little superfluous.

    My main beef however, is how video games just refuse to have any kind of problems with friendly fire. Very often in that fight, the smuggler was shooting through the back of the Jedi. The firing was always just a constant, steady stream of blaster fire that generally had no real effect or visible impact, it just did small incremental damage over a long period of time.

    Blaster fights aren't like that in Star Wars, it's a lot of ping pong, duck and cover, try and get a good kill shot in. In this game, it's just kneel down, activate your blue electro-gimmick, and shoot aimlessly, through the back of your own friends.

    I know what I ask for is difficult to design and isn't congruent with how simpleton other MMOs are, (where you just click to target and then everything is kosher after that). But I look forward to the day when MMOs challenge us with just a little more sophistication.

    I know I often bring up World of Tanks here, but there's a reason I do, and that's because a lot of the combat is really innovative. Although its a vehicle game, I believe some of their ideas could translate to standard gun play as well. In WOT, you have a much better chance of success if you disable auto-target and actually aim your weapon. Secondly, you need cover badly to survive, you hug it, you seek it out and you only come out to take a shot when you know you're covered or your opponent is otherwise engaged. You can hit your own opponents if you are not careful and a lot of weapons out there can knock you down to half hits in a single shot.

    It sounds horrible, but in fact, it produces a combat where there is far less chaos and frenzy. And combat is deadly, so it creates a lot of tension. Let's face it, stuff happens in most MMOs so fast, you're not even really paying attention to the battle stats. You're just auto-targeting, going through a very mundane attack cycle - and rarely reacting much at all (except to switch targets, or decide when to heal). When you slow the pace down, you not only add realism, you add more tactics and you feel much more in control of your own destiny. Right now, most combat in MMOs has no tension at all. It's a fairly mundane (and often risk-free) process.

    It can't really be done with this generation of MMOs, but I hope in a few years someone really tries to break this "simpleton combat" that we're all stuck with. And for the love of God, can we add some actual physics and fatigue to leaping around like an idiot? Just about every fan video posted, features avatars leaping around, defying gravity, never tripping, never twisting their ankle or falling down exhausted. So you have everyone leaping around like Nureyev. Jumping should slow you down, see how fast sprinters are versus how fast hurdlers are for proof. :)

    Old man rant, sorry!

    ChaosRed on
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    ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote:
    I like the idea of the jedi mind trick. Casting something on a player tham makes you invisble to just them.

    That's a pretty awesome idea.

    STO actually had something like this, for ship to ship combat (both PvP and PvE).

    Of course it was always considered a courtesy to inform your teammates you were about to dump extra enemy fire on them.

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    AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    ChaosRed wrote:
    Lots of points

    No offense, CR, but what you want is not an MMORPG. What you really want is an MMO action game, where what matters is the player's skill. In an MMORPG, player skill means little. What's important is the character's skill, which is something completely different. You're really looking at the wrong genre at the moment.

    Nothing wrong with that, mind you. I'd be perfectly happy with an MMO action game built like that, and I would give it a try. But, that's pretty much the exact opposite of TOR.

    PSN|AspectVoid
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    am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Echo wrote:
    that isn't at all what gearscore did

    Read my post again.

    quickrate.jpg

    I wasn't around when they added that. However, I wasn't referring to something that has you rating people. More of a way for me, personally, to remember which people I'd rather not group with. I don't really care what other's opinions are of someone, as everyone meshes differently.

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    am0nam0n Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    ironzerg wrote:
    ChaosRed wrote:
    Thanks for the update Echo. RP mods are my goal of course, they greatly help RP. The WOW RP mods are really quite good.

    I was watching the new Dev video uploaded to SWTOR today. Ion Fist? Really? Is there a Snare Devil too? Or a Grouper Man?

    The combat is really pretty LOL in a lot of places. Not exactly highly entertaining to watch and the smuggler seemed largely irrelevant to the fight. Still the story seemed interesting and some of the voice work was really good.

    I hope players don't gripe/whine about which choices are chosen by a party. I can see myself often wanting to pick choices that will probably extend the scenario further (rather than shortcut it) and if I win the conversation I could see impatient players griping about it. Some players hate anything that takes additional time and personally, I am never in a hurry in these games. It seemed to me, that the choice the players made in the video (opening the air lock), allowed them to bypass another fight (where they would have to fight to reach the secondary switches to unlock the bridge). So it looks to me, like maybe some of the choices go beyond dark/light, they actually effect the length of the scenario.

    One cool thing though, is SWTOR devs have mentioned choices have long lasting effect. By destroying that engineer, the group may have made the second part of the scenario harder. My worry is, all the choices will get documented eventually, players will learn the most efficient way to complete a story and then demand a party all make those choices in unison for "maximum efficiency".

    To me the above is why it's absolutely imperative, imho, to find friends and play together. ToR's system might unitentionally start to put a few nails in the, "I play MMO's like a single player game, even when I'm in a group" mentality.

    I agree with iron (I seem to do that often...). I don't necessarily care if people always choose what I want, that's what mixes things up and makes it unique, but I do want a group of people who also don't mind some variety. I have zero desire (right now, time may change that, especially if I was in a rush that day to finish) to be told what options to select. I imagine there will be players on both sides and even variability, so it's just a matter of being upfront.
    Decoy wrote:
    Maz- wrote:
    I was thinking the exact same thing. I can't see myself taking the Dark Side choice, at least not on my Jedi Knight. Sure, it probably adds 10-15 minutes to the dungeon run, but I want dem Light Side points.

    If you choose the Light Side option, you will get light side points, regardless if the person who won the role chose the Dark Side option. So there's always that.

    I think what they were referring to though is a group that says 'everyone do DS so we can finish quicker.' In which, I say again, you just need to be upfront and make sure the people playing with you are at least on the same page of selecting what you want to select.

    am0n on
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    ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    OKAY GUYS!

    We're close to new thread time, I'll make it since I'll be awake. Throw me some witty thread titles.

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
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    DecoyDecoy Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    am0n wrote:
    Decoy wrote:
    Maz- wrote:
    I was thinking the exact same thing. I can't see myself taking the Dark Side choice, at least not on my Jedi Knight. Sure, it probably adds 10-15 minutes to the dungeon run, but I want dem Light Side points.

    If you choose the Light Side option, you will get light side points, regardless if the person who won the role chose the Dark Side option. So there's always that.

    I think what they were referring to though is a group that says 'everyone do DS so we can finish quicker.' In which, I say again, you just need to be upfront and make sure the people playing with you are at least on the same page of selecting what you want to select.

    Yeah, he mentioned "wanting his light side points" so I figured I'd at least let him know he can still get them regardless of the outcome. But as far as people saying "Everyone pick <side> to speed things up", that's really not going to phase me. My choices will be based on how I'm playing my character. Hopefully people can handle that and I'm not kicked from the first group I'm out-voted 3 to 1 and just happen to win the role.

    Decoy on
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    am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Decoy wrote:
    Yeah, he mentioned "wanting his light side points" so I figured I'd at least let him know he can still get them regardless of the outcome. But as far as people saying "Everyone pick <side> to speed things up", that's really not going to phase me. My choices will be based on how I'm playing my character. Hopefully people can handle that and I'm not kicked from the first group I'm out-voted 3 to 1 and just happen to win the role.

    I guarantee you will find people who will complain/kick you. But that's where a guild comes in. Easier to find a stable group of people who share common interests.

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    ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    am0n wrote:
    Decoy wrote:
    Yeah, he mentioned "wanting his light side points" so I figured I'd at least let him know he can still get them regardless of the outcome. But as far as people saying "Everyone pick <side> to speed things up", that's really not going to phase me. My choices will be based on how I'm playing my character. Hopefully people can handle that and I'm not kicked from the first group I'm out-voted 3 to 1 and just happen to win the role.

    I guarantee you will find people who will complain/kick you. But that's where a guild comes in. Easier to find a stable group of people who share common interests.

    This makes me think of Baldur's Gate, but instead of an NPC party you got a PC party. Chaotic Evil guys ain't staying in a party long with Lawful Good dudes.

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    ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    AspectVoid wrote:
    Nothing wrong with that, mind you. I'd be perfectly happy with an MMO action game built like that, and I would give it a try. But, that's pretty much the exact opposite of TOR.

    You're right, in that what I am asking for is not how MMOs currently work, but I'm suggesting MMOs evolve. At a minimum, if you shoot into the back of a friendly player, it doesn't just go through them, it actually hits them. I know this radically changes how AOEs and ranged fighting currently work. But right now, MMOs feature "combat for dummies" and I suggest they can do better. I actually thinks it makes the combat less compelling and far less thrilling.

    I know it isn't the industry standard, right now that standard is simplicity and lack of skill, but I think a somewhat bolder combat system than the repetitive attack chain spam, is overdue. I think it could be implemented in a way that is still conducive to the overall MMO experience.

    I'll still enjoy SW:TOR, but clearly the concept of "cover" that they advertised, is just an attack stance with a small defensive buff, rather than the concept of finding cover and sniping with carefully aimed, tactical shots. It's fine, I guess, I'll enjoy the game, just pine for a little more sophistication.

    Actually the combat reminds me a lot of City of Heroes, it just comes across as rather static, with just a flurry of repetition.

    Again, I'm excited about SW:TOR but doesn't anyone else think the combat in this game looks a little dry? I hardly ever see the mobs produce interesting attacks or strategies either. The more difficult mobs just seem exactly the same, only with more hit points.

    ChaosRed on
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    DecoyDecoy Registered User regular
    am0n wrote:
    Decoy wrote:
    Yeah, he mentioned "wanting his light side points" so I figured I'd at least let him know he can still get them regardless of the outcome. But as far as people saying "Everyone pick <side> to speed things up", that's really not going to phase me. My choices will be based on how I'm playing my character. Hopefully people can handle that and I'm not kicked from the first group I'm out-voted 3 to 1 and just happen to win the role.

    I guarantee you will find people who will complain/kick you. But that's where a guild comes in. Easier to find a stable group of people who share common interests.

    Oh, trust me, I plan to group with friends and guildies as much as possible.

    I can understand "This is our 40th attempt at this, please everyone just pick the quicker option", but kicking me on try 1 is a bit harsh. But like you said, I expect it'll happen in pugs.

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    ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote:
    OKAY GUYS!

    We're close to new thread time, I'll make it since I'll be awake. Throw me some witty thread titles.

    Seriously we only got about a page to do it in.

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
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    BasilBasil Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote:
    Arthil wrote:
    OKAY GUYS!

    We're close to new thread time, I'll make it since I'll be awake. Throw me some witty thread titles.

    Seriously we only got about a page to do it in.

    [SW:TOR] Republic Boogaloo

    9KmX8eN.jpg
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    GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Arthil wrote:
    Arthil wrote:
    OKAY GUYS!

    We're close to new thread time, I'll make it since I'll be awake. Throw me some witty thread titles.

    Seriously we only got about a page to do it in.

    Pre-Order to gain early access to the new thread?

    Edit:

    Gains 80 Darkside points for the DDE being an Origin Exclusive

    GONG-00 on
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    AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    ChaosRed wrote:
    AspectVoid wrote:
    Nothing wrong with that, mind you. I'd be perfectly happy with an MMO action game built like that, and I would give it a try. But, that's pretty much the exact opposite of TOR.

    You're right, in that what I am asking for is not how MMOs currently work, but I'm suggesting MMOs evolve. At a minimum, if you shoot into the back of a friendly player, it doesn't just go through them, it actually hits them. I know this radically changes how AOEs and ranged fighting currently work. But right now, MMOs feature "combat for dummies" and I suggest they can do better. I actually thinks it makes the combat less compelling and far less thrilling.

    This is really a hold over from pen and paper RPGs. In most Pen and Paper RPGs, you take no penalties for attacking through your allies. Its commonly assumed among PnP games that you are aware of each other, and make those minor shifts to keep out of each other's line of fire (Player 1 takes a half step right, player 2 takes a half step left, and Player 2 now has a clean shot). One of the issues with animating this in an MMO is that to do so properly, you end up wresting control of the character from the player too often, and people WOULD complain about that. Unless you make it an action game rather than an MMO, its a lose-lose situation.
    ChaosRed wrote:
    I know it isn't the industry standard, right now that standard is simplicity and lack of skill, but I think a somewhat bolder combat system than the repetitive attack chain spam, is overdue. I think it could be implemented in a way that is still conducive to the overall MMO experience.

    The problem with this is money. It is insanely expensive to get a new MMO up and running, and completely changing the game play system is a huge risk that a big-time MMO developer can't really a ford to take. What we really need first is a solid MMOFPS. Planetside attempted this, but ended up failing. If Planetside 2 can make it work, make it fun, and make a consistent profit out of it, then I think future MMOs may try to blend that in. However, until an action based system proves successful, I don't think we'll see a big name take a risk on it.
    ChaosRed wrote:
    I'll still enjoy SW:TOR, but clearly the concept of "cover" that they advertised, is just an attack stance with a small defensive buff, rather than the concept of finding cover and sniping with carefully aimed, tactical shots. It's fine, I guess, I'll enjoy the game, just pine for a little more sophistication.

    Most likely, the cover system changed from its initial conception due to issues with getting it working on static objects. Down the road we could see the original cover system re-implemented once they get the kinks worked out, but right now it looks to me like the energy cover was created to simplify the mechanic and prevent it from delaying the release or being broken.
    ChaosRed wrote:
    Actually the combat reminds me a lot of City of Heroes, it just comes across as rather static, with just a flurry of repetition.

    I loved CoH, so I have no problems with that.
    ChaosRed wrote:
    Again, I'm excited about SW:TOR but doesn't anyone else think the combat in this game looks a little dry? I hardly ever see the mobs produce interesting attacks or strategies either. The more difficult mobs just seem exactly the same, only with more hit points.

    The combat doesn't look any more dry than any other MMORPG on the market. So, I would have to say no.

    PSN|AspectVoid
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    ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User regular
    Okay I suck at this, but here are my thread title suggestions:

    Do Sith Lords Pop Their Collars?

    Asteroids Don't Concern Us, We Want That Release Date, Not Excuses

    Witness the Firepower of this Fully Armed and Operational Thread

    This Thread Can't Repel Firepower of that Magnitude

    Gabe Says Its Good, Gabe's Never Wrong

    Very Similar to Your Moisture Vaporator In Most Respects

    Go that way, you'll be malfunctioning in a week

    Beta invite? Let the cock mongering begin!

    Better than chewing on your power cables

    Fuck it! You've already paid for it. Might as well click the thread.

    Slow Clapping Mandolorians FTW

    Blasting Loyal Engineers Out the Airlock Since 2011

    ...okay I really suck at this, sorry.







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    LouieLouie Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Doubt i should read much into it but amazon just emailed me to say they have received updated info about my pre order and it is scheduled to release jan 03 - 05.

    Thread title : SWTOR: Lekku porn

    Louie on
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    ben_botben_bot Registered User regular
    How about: My money just did a Force Leap out of my wallet!

    PSN: ben_bot
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    ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Pre-Order to gain early access to the new thread.

    Blasting Loyal Engineers Out the Airlock Since 2011.

    Witness the Firepower of this Fully Armed and Operational Thread.

    It'll be one of these I think.

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
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    am0nam0n Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Friday update is a flashpoint walkthrough.
    Watching that darkside choice made my stomache hurt. I don't even have the stones to mass murder polygons.

    The sad thing is
    It appears to be a bit of a shortcut option for that flashpoint. Hard to say for sure, there may be other circumstances we aren't aware of, but at least outwardly it appears to be "hit butan, skip running around." I wonder if that's going to be making it a really common pick.

    I know I'd pick the other option if it were "in character" for me, but I doubt it would make me many friends if I won.

    I liked what I saw. I'm really looking forward to flashpoints.

    EDIT: Also
    That Mandalorian deserves a medal for best slow clap ever.
    I'm actually shocked they ALL picked the dark side choice. Either they were all just seeing how badass it was, or they were told to select the dark side choice to speed things up. I can't imagine out of their own volition they all just went evil.

    My vote is for :

    [SW:TOR] Soon™

    am0n on
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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    ChaosRed wrote:
    Thanks for the update Echo. RP mods are my goal of course, they greatly help RP. The WOW RP mods are really quite good.

    I was watching the new Dev video uploaded to SWTOR today. Ion Fist? Really? Is there a Snare Devil too? Or a Grouper Man?

    The combat is really pretty LOL in a lot of places. Not exactly highly entertaining to watch and the smuggler seemed largely irrelevant to the fight. Still the story seemed interesting and some of the voice work was really good.

    I hope players don't gripe/whine about which choices are chosen by a party. I can see myself often wanting to pick choices that will probably extend the scenario further (rather than shortcut it) and if I win the conversation I could see impatient players griping about it. Some players hate anything that takes additional time and personally, I am never in a hurry in these games. It seemed to me, that the choice the players made in the video (opening the air lock), allowed them to bypass another fight (where they would have to fight to reach the secondary switches to unlock the bridge). So it looks to me, like maybe some of the choices go beyond dark/light, they actually effect the length of the scenario.

    One cool thing though, is SWTOR devs have mentioned choices have long lasting effect. By destroying that engineer, the group may have made the second part of the scenario harder. My worry is, all the choices will get documented eventually, players will learn the most efficient way to complete a story and then demand a party all make those choices in unison for "maximum efficiency".

    I agree - Iron Fist is a little silly.

    As for the combat though, I disagree. You need to keep in mind this was a level 9/10 instance. Compare that to WoW and a lot of classes are still auto-attacking for most of their damage, and certainly aren't CCing opponent, or dealing with boss fight mechanics beyond tank and spank.

    Another thing I noticed was the players weren't just DPSing down one NPC at a time while the jedi tanked everything else. You had the other classes CCing one, while firing on another and constantly switching back and forth until all three were dead. And it looked like the NPCs wouldn't allow themselves to get corralled up.

    As for the storyline, my hope is two fold ...

    1 - The stories are done in such a way that there isn't an ideal or easier way to go. But that your decisions branch off but into different directions that are comparable.

    2 - The first time around I'll be ahead of the pack anyway so it won't matter.

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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    Maz- wrote:
    ChaosRed wrote:
    Thanks for the update Echo. RP mods are my goal of course, they greatly help RP. The WOW RP mods are really quite good.

    I was watching the new Dev video uploaded to SWTOR today. Ion Fist? Really? Is there a Snare Devil too? Or a Grouper Man?

    The combat is really pretty LOL in a lot of places. Not exactly highly entertaining to watch and the smuggler seemed largely irrelevant to the fight. Still the story seemed interesting and some of the voice work was really good.

    I hope players don't gripe/whine about which choices are chosen by a party. I can see myself often wanting to pick choices that will probably extend the scenario further (rather than shortcut it) and if I win the conversation I could see impatient players griping about it
    . Some players hate anything that takes additional time and personally, I am never in a hurry in these games. It seemed to me, that the choice the players made in the video (opening the air lock), allowed them to bypass another fight (where they would have to fight to reach the secondary switches to unlock the bridge). So it looks to me, like maybe some of the choices go beyond dark/light, they actually effect the length of the scenario.

    One cool thing though, is SWTOR devs have mentioned choices have long lasting effect. By destroying that engineer, the group may have made the second part of the scenario harder. My worry is, all the choices will get documented eventually, players will learn the most efficient way to complete a story and then demand a party all make those choices in unison for "maximum efficiency".


    I was thinking the exact same thing. I can't see myself taking the Dark Side choice, at least not on my Jedi Knight. Sure, it probably adds 10-15 minutes to the dungeon run, but I want dem Light Side points.

    You and me, ChaosRed, we should be bros. Bros who take long and uneccessary detours.

    yeah but you get the light side points. you aren't given LS/DS points based on what happens - you're given them based on what you picked. So if you were in that group you'd still get LS points.

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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    btw I had a similar reaction to some of you folks when those guys were given the Arthur Dent/Ford Prefect treatment. I was like "man that's kind of dark and ... shutter."

    then i started thinking that i'm being pretty damn silly, considering that group killed at least 20 mofos to get to that point and I didn't bat an eyelash.

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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote:
    Ok so what are the chances of Bioware/EA releasing server names and info prior to the launch. I've got so many people I need to coordinate with. My old WoW guild, two separate groups of real life friends, getting everyone together is gonna be a logistical nightmare.

    You are very likely not going to be able to coordinate like you would for other games. Instead you're going to need to make sure those folks are all in guilds, and when guild Phase II hits ally yourself with the guilds.

    To avoid some of the problems WAR, Aion and Rift had, Bioware is doing something different with servers. They're going to take guilds, take your requests to be placed on servers with other guilds and then assign you to your server - basically trying to do something a little more controlled and intelligent then letting it just be a random bumrush to servers.

    Then presumably when you login the first day, your guild is waiting there for you on a server and you create your first character there.

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    ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    yeah but you get the light side points. you aren't given LS/DS points based on what happens - you're given them based on what you picked. So if you were in that group you'd still get LS points.

    Which is a great feature, my worry is that there will be peer pressure NOT to pick certain options, because there's a chance the randomizer picks your choice and it forces the party to spend an extra 5 minutes finishing a quest. I just worry there will be some pressure to have party unity on choices, based on a perception it makes the "XP go faster". Unfortunately, for a lot of players, "making XP go fast" is their only real focus.

    Let's hope the fact SWTOR is clearly a narrative game and that there are LS/DS points at stake in the choices, that this kind of pressure is muted, or even better, the SWTOR culture embraces the mechanic entirely so that any kind of party pressure is generally disliked and discouraged. Games tend to breed a specific culture, WOW culture isn't exactly the same as COH culture, so we might see SWTOR culture embrace the fact you can make personal choices and sometimes your personal choices will get picked.

    And you make solid points on my reservations about the combat system, thanks for that.

    ChaosRed on
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    Grape ApeGrape Ape Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote:
    Pre-Order to gain early access to the new thread.

    Blasting Loyal Engineers Out the Airlock Since 2011.

    Witness the Firepower of this Fully Armed and Operational Thread.

    It'll be one of these I think.

    We are all dark side on the internet

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    ArthilArthil Registered User regular
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    ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    [SW:TOR] Release date for release date announcement announced

    EDIT: Curse my metal body. I wasn't fast enough.

    ironzerg on
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