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[TF2] is now FREE!! You have no excuse not to play. Meet the Medic in OP!!

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  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    I mean, even if you lock them down with snipers and spies (which rarely ever happens), your combat classes get fucked up. Spies are usually really good when your team is braindead retarded and doesn't know to spycheck around key areas or flame constantly around the medic push combo. Oh and snipers. SniperGuy thinks he can just shoot a heavy. That's funny because heavies can just shoot back at you, so good luck getting an actual shot off while you're charging up to maybe get a full headshot and any sniper worth his salt knows that charging up to full should be a rare thing. Heavies with the assistance of GRU can get to a middle point quick as hell. Even without it, they can have a soldier just whip them to the center point and oh look the team that got their heavies to the center point first won what a surprise. And if you're dedicating 2 or 3 guys maybe to just taking out the heavies then your team comp is weak as hell.The tomislav is still pretty broken. Within like, 2 seconds of firing they've done 700 damage to anyone in front of them.

    So like, okay, let's say the stars align and the moon is full and your snipers and spies are fucking amazing geniuses that kill the heavies on the small bit of open ground in the map. What happens now? Nothing, because even if you got their heavies now you have to worry about them respawning and getting back to the front fast as hell while you dick around trying to take out sentry guns. I mean, this isn't theory crafting because this has happened to me more than I'd like. and hell, I've healed Goomba who basically did this shit. him + a kritzkrieg usually resulted in the whole enemy team being dead.

    I mean, the heavies weaknesses is...that he can be back-stabbed? Shot in the head? So, pretty much like every other class only every other class doesn't get a shitload of health, and most of them have to actually reload, and the heavy is only kinda slow post-heavy buff and only while firing. The biggest weakness of the class is that it's just so god damn easy. It's almost impossible to distinguish a great heavy from an okay heavy just because of how innately strong the class is now. It makes the game and the class boring.

    tyrannus on
  • Metal Gear Solid 2 DemoMetal Gear Solid 2 Demo Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Lokiamis wrote: »
    heavies don't "die easy to anything" ever

    Without a medic they don't have the ability to stand up on the front. Their health gets chipped away by whatever damage they take because they're slow moving and a huge target. And that's ignoring things like backstabs, headsets, rockets, pipes, stickies, etc. all huge dangers to an unsupported heavy.
    I mean, the heavies weaknesses is...that he can be back-stabbed? Shot in the head? So, pretty much like every other class only every other class doesn't get a shitload of health, and most of them have to actually reload, and the heavy is only kinda slow post-heavy buff and only while firing. The biggest weakness of the class is that it's just so god damn easy. It's almost impossible to distinguish a great heavy from an okay heavy just because of how innately strong the class is now. It makes the game and the class boring.

    This is literally been the entire purpose of the heavy since the Quake version. He's a front line damage soak that fucks people up. That's why checks and balances like headshots and backstabs and other offensive classes like soldiers and demomen exist to counter. If you have a team that can't muster up the ability or know how or common sense to kill a heavy then you probably deserve to lose.

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  • WrenWren Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    anyone have an ol' snaggletooth they'd trade for my vintage pyro beanie?

    Wren on
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  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    The problem with the heavy medic pair is that it can quickly disable or destroy most other classes give inferior or equal skill. A heavy can be a quite powerful class on its own if played well, and factor in the added health/regen that comes from healing and there is little that can be done until the medic is taken out. A good medic will make it very difficult for you to target them, and given how quickly the heavy can kill most classes you generally do not have enough time to kill the medic before you are dead.

    Now the classes that have the best ability to neutralize the heavy/medic combo are as stated the sniper and the spy. The problem is that snipers will likely be under pressure from other classes as once a heavy medic combo marches through your front lines there is little to stop the other players. Once your front line collapses your ability to line up that full charge headshot without someone counter sniping/tossing rockets/tossing nades/back stabbing you is severely hampered. You have to be alot better than the heavy/medic to neutralize them. Even a bad heavy medic is still a threat.

    As for the spy one really good pyro can lock spies down hard. However both the heavy, the medic, as well as anyone else can proactively work to minimize a spies ability to get that backstab in. The more skilled a heavy/medic pair the less of a threat spies become.

    Heavies synergize far to well. In addition they have numerous tools to compensate for their weakness. The steel gloves allow you to move though sniper alleys much easier, or the GRU can allow you to get to the front quickly. A sandwich can be used to heal your medic partner, and if you are even halfway decent spin up times are barely an issue. All the heavy downsides have been effectively neutered with unlocks.

    Once heavy medic is hard enough to beat, toss in 2 or three pairs and your chances of effectively shutting them down with anything but more heavy medic pairs because even more slim. Those extra heavies can spycheck, watch each others backs, or move into and out of range to juggle who is taking the hits as one person gets low.

    The combo lacks a hard counter. There are lots of soft counters, but basically unless your snipers are really good, or your spies really good you are going to run into situations where the best most classes can do is suicide trying to kill the medic. Which still leaves you with an overhealed heavy to deal with.

    Detharin on
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Yeah unsupported heavies are pretty easy to kill. The issue is when a smart medic shadows them and you can't ever take them out

    Zzulu on
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  • SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Pureauthor wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Lokiamis wrote: »
    heavies don't "die easy to anything" ever

    Sniper bullet to the head? Yes huh.

    4 seconds where you're essentially paralysed in order to headshot a Heavy is incredibly risky, though!

    I mean, you can still move around while scoped pretty quickly. And most of my heavy headshots are at chokepoints where they come around a corner or whatever. Then again, I mostly pay Payload where this is easier.

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  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    this game has been out for a million years are people bitching about heavy/medic

    Kwoaru on
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  • WrenWren Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    has anyone tried killing the medic first? always works for me anyways. its a solid tactic I find

    Wren on
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  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Of course, as a pyro all we have left is the ability to complain as our upsides are slowly negated, while a heavies downsides get removed. Hell with the GRU/Tomislav they are oftentimes a better ambush class than the pyro. I expect next patch they will get a minigun with airblast, or the rumored one that allows them to shoot down rockets.

    Detharin on
  • Metal Gear Solid 2 DemoMetal Gear Solid 2 Demo Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    The combo lacks a hard counter. There are lots of soft counters, but basically unless your snipers are really good, or your spies really good you are going to run into situations where the best most classes can do is suicide trying to kill the medic. Which still leaves you with an overhealed heavy to deal with.

    The combo lacks a hard counter because you hand wave away the hard counters with "well there's things that counter those" as if this isn't a class based game with that very purpose in mind

    In your examples you're effectively saying a sniper will never get a headshot if the H+M reach a certain "front line" point, and a spy will never get a backstab if a pyro just exists somewhere on the map. This isn't true at all in application, and you're still negating out basic things like demomen and soldiers who can in many situations go toe-to-toe with the H+M and either win or do pretty good damage.

    Metal Gear Solid 2 Demo on
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  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    you keep posting about handwaving being a bad thing when that's literally what you yourself are doing

    tyrannus on
  • JakorianJakorian Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    If the only thing that counters a class are instant kills, I don't think its balanced.

    Jakorian on
  • LokiamisLokiamis Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Wren wrote: »
    has anyone tried killing the medic first? always works for me anyways. its a solid tactic I find

    Most classes have trouble getting behind the guy with the highest health and damage in the game

    Lokiamis on
  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Just now, playing a mixture of demo/soldier/pyro/scout, I repeatedly killed many heavies and their pocket medics. Perhaps because they weren't that great, but you can kill them. Stickybomb their feet, pipe bombs to the face, rockets in general (god help them if you hit em with a crocket), airblast to get the medic to stop his healing works etc.

    Hell, a scout with a FAN can do some pretty goddamn nasty things if you get up close.

    EDIT: It is true though that there is no "Completely 100% of the time stop a Heavy Medic combo always without any chance of failure" strategy barring the ones that kill one instantly. But there are a lot of ways to mitigate or eliminate that grouping.

    This has been true since day 1.

    MechMantis on
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  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    The Heavy is supposed to be a hard hitting front-line class that can soak up a lot of damage. This is balanced by them being extremely immobile and susceptible to being killed when they are not spun up. The problem is that with the GRU they are no longer immobile, and with the Tomislav they can be ambushed and still kill anything before they die. The main two weaknesses of the Heavy have been essentially removed. I don't understand how that can be considered balanced.

    mEEksa on
  • PureauthorPureauthor Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    No Heavy + Medic team with a pair of functioning brainstems are going to let the Medic get easily exposed. 'Just kill the dude hiding behind every other dude around a corner!' that'll do it!

    Pureauthor on
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  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Pureauthor wrote: »
    No Heavy + Medic team with a pair of functioning brainstems are going to let the Medic get easily exposed. 'Just kill the dude hiding behind every other dude around a corner!' that'll do it!

    So use splash weapons. Or bounce things around corners. Or sneak up on them. Or headshot one or the other. Or get backstabs. Or...

    MechMantis on
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  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    A headshot on a heavy doesn't kill him if he's at max health. A headshot on a Medic does.

    Backburner Pyro or Demoman to hit or airblast from behind to push or force the Medic into an exposed spot. Sniper shoots Medic once exposed. Team kills Heavy.

    Granted this has only worked while playing with friends on pub servers but it's super fun when it works.

    Also re an earlier post: a sniper is not immobilized while headshottinh a Heavy. A heavy is huge and slow. If you can't score a headshot while strafing and scoped (and if you're not smart enough to move between shots) then I feel bad for you son cuz I got 99 problems but a Heavy ain't one.

    Vivixenne on
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  • JakorianJakorian Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Guys I know in game heavy/medics are completely dominate but they're actually quite balanced in hypothetical situations on internet message boards.

    Jakorian on
  • LokiamisLokiamis Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    I love the airblast the medic into a sniper bullet strategy

    Lokiamis on
  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Lokiamis wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    has anyone tried killing the medic first? always works for me anyways. its a solid tactic I find

    Most classes have trouble getting behind the guy with the highest health and damage in the game

    With so many back routes on so many maps I find this hard to believe.

    I took out a heavymedic as a MEDIC once. With a Vitasaw. It was glorious. Pub server, but still glorious.

    Point is: getting behind them is definitely Possible, but I grant that being effective once there is another situation entirely.

    Vivixenne on
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  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited July 2011
    im just saying

    heavies weren't that big of a deal for me, mainly as a soldier, before the spinup buff

    i could engage and if they wanted to engage, i could retreat, etc

    but now if i want to try to engage, i have to go balls in and hope i land all four of my rockets and the damage variance is enough to do 300

    i don't know

    i just think the skill floor on the heavy is low for a reason, and i think it's a good decision

    but heavies do so much damage

    undeinPirat on
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  • klokateer9047klokateer9047 Registered User
    edited July 2011
    Protip:

    217534009_hZ5oD-L-2.jpg

    kill the medic.

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  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited July 2011

    The combo lacks a hard counter because you hand wave away the hard counters with "well there's things that counter those" as if this isn't a class based game with that very purpose in mind

    In your examples you're effectively saying a sniper will never get a headshot if the H+M reach a certain "front line" point, and a spy will never get a backstab if a pyro just exists somewhere on the map. This isn't true at all in application, and you're still negating out basic things like demomen and soldiers who can in many situations go toe-to-toe with the H+M and either win or do pretty good damage.

    You seem confused by what i mean by hard counter. A hard counter stops whatever it is dead in its tracks the majority of the time. A sentry gun for instance is a hard counter to a pyro baring incredibly shitty placement. A heavy minus the medic will generally kill a demoman, or a soldier.

    Now a demoman might get lucky on unnotices stickies, or a soldier might get a crocket hit or two so by no means is it a guaranteed loss. These are soft counters, in that while they cannot reliable stop a heavy medic combo occasionally they will. Spies and snipers are also both soft counters as a good heavy/medic can make it hard to get that important backstab, or that full charged headshot because anything else is largely a waste. One heavy/medic is generally not that bad, however again the problem goes to Synergy. Multiple heavy medics supporting each other become far more dangerous than any other combos in the game due to their high health, and high damage output.

    The problem is that while a spy might get a good backstab off, or a sniper get a good headshot off, or or or it is not likely to happen often enough or reliably enough to prevent multiple heavy/medics from reliably being able to push through your offense into your back lines. It is a fairly reliable strategy, that is hard to counter with anything but itself, and that takes a lot of fun out of the game. Which is why people complain.

    Detharin on
  • LokiamisLokiamis Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    Lokiamis wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    has anyone tried killing the medic first? always works for me anyways. its a solid tactic I find

    Most classes have trouble getting behind the guy with the highest health and damage in the game

    With so many back routes on so many maps I find this hard to believe.

    I took out a heavymedic as a MEDIC once. With a Vitasaw. It was glorious. Pub server, but still glorious.

    Point is: getting behind them is definitely Possible, but I grant that being effective once there is another situation entirely.

    You have to take a long side route, fight all the enemies there, exit the side route and fight all the enemies there, get to the pair and hope you can put the medic out of the fight for 25 seconds before the heavy kills you

    The odds are always stacked against you when you fight a heavy and it's not fun

    Lokiamis on
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited July 2011
    yeah i dont ever kill the medic thanx for the tip

    undeinPirat on
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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2011
    Heavy's issue is that once he's committed to a battle, then that's it. They rarely get to pick where the fight goes down, and they rarely get to run away to make for a second push. A semi competent team can take down one or two H/M combos.

    Sheep on
  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    unless they use the tomislav and then woop the commitment isn't so much a commitment anymore

    tyrannus on
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited July 2011
    the commitment really isn't a thing since the spinup buff

    you aren't punished nearly as hard for not picking the right fights

    fake edit : and tomislav is dumb too

    i probably wouldn't complain as much if heavies weren't actually the unfunnest thing to fight against

    it's like a boss fight

    undeinPirat on
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  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Kill the medic and the heavy dies easy to anything
    This guy? This guy right here?

    Career Heavy.

    Bethryn on
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  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
  • devericdeveric MinneapolisRegistered User regular
    edited July 2011
    remember when the libations were poured over the door on pl_goldrush?

    WHERE ARE YOU DOOR?

    deveric on
  • LokiamisLokiamis Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    RIP Door

    Lokiamis on
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited July 2011
    tyrannus wrote: »

    wow what a joke why would you even post this

    this guy is garbage

    undeinPirat on
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  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Sheep wrote: »
    Heavy's issue is that once he's committed to a battle, then that's it. They rarely get to pick where the fight goes down, and they rarely get to run away to make for a second push. A semi competent team can take down one or two H/M combos.
    I... just... what?

    This is completely contrary to my Heavy experience, both on pubs and PA. It's very easy, especially with Sandvich and even moreso with GRU, to back off after a kill or two on the front lines, nom up, and then go back in.

    If you're incapable of doing this, you're either getting greedy after getting kills, or you're choosing to engage against overwhelming odds.

    Bethryn on
    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
  • PMAversPMAvers Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    deveric wrote: »
    remember when the libations were poured over the door on pl_goldrush?

    WHERE ARE YOU DOOR?

    Door just moved. He's over on Granary now.

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  • EdcrabEdcrab Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Heavies were a powerful class in beta and were repeatedly handed buffs

    The fact that heavies have dedicated apologists is pretty hilarious really

    Edcrab on
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  • LokiamisLokiamis Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    don't they get buffs because they're "boring"?

    Lokiamis on
  • EndaroEndaro Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    I love how most of the people disagreeing with Tyrannus' (and originally WSDX's) point about heavies have a fraction of the play time and a fraction of the skill they do. Yes, good job pointing out the "kill the medic" strategy I'm sure they didn't know it.

    When someone says that Heavies are OP, they aren't saying heavy+medics can't be killed, so I don't know why people keep pointing out that spies and snipers exist. Overpowered means they are stronger than they should be, in a game where each class should be of comparable usefulness with different strengths and weaknesses. It means a comparatively low skill level gives an undeserved result, that heavies are not only easy but also better then most other classes out there.

    No one has ever switched off of a heavy because they found it ineffective or too hard (which is something that happens everyday to almost every other class), people play something else because they get bored. Anyone who thinks that matches don't frequently come down to which team had more heavies (and that the losing team just needs some spies or snipers, or should just try next time), hasn't been playing on PA servers for years at this point.

    Endaro on
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited July 2011
    but endaro i actually didn't know i had to kill the medic, i think i've got it handled now

    undeinPirat on
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