CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
Edit: I just realized that this beautifully supports my Kaidan argument. Everyone has their limit on what they can accept and what they can't.
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
It's not that it's hard to believe
I don't like it because it's a crappy plot device that was handled poorly
like the majority of the Main story
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
It's not that it's hard to believe
I don't like it because it's a crappy plot device that was handled poorly
like the majority of the Main story
Like why the Illusive man didn't tell you the Collector Ship was a trap. It's not like you were going to refuse to go.
Renegade Wolf on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
It's not that it's hard to believe
I don't like it because it's a crappy plot device that was handled poorly
like the majority of the Main story
Like why the Illusive man didn't tell you the Collector Ship was a trap. It's not like you were going to refuse to go.
The reason he gives is that he had no way of knowing who could be listening in, not that you would refuse to go.
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
It's not that it's hard to believe
I don't like it because it's a crappy plot device that was handled poorly
like the majority of the Main story
Like why the Illusive man didn't tell you the Collector Ship was a trap. It's not like you were going to refuse to go.
Like how Mordin has a plot device seeker that he pulled out of his ass
Like how the collectors attacked Horizon to get the Virmire Survivor, stung them first and promptly let them go
Like how the Collectors have no real plan. Do they plan on attacking the Citadel or Earth with their one ship?
Dox the PI on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
It's not that it's hard to believe
I don't like it because it's a crappy plot device that was handled poorly
like the majority of the Main story
Like why the Illusive man didn't tell you the Collector Ship was a trap. It's not like you were going to refuse to go.
The reason he gives is that he had no way of knowing who could be listening in, not that you would refuse to go.
He says that if he needs the Collector's to believe they had the upper hand. And seeing as Shepard would land on the ship armed to the teeth with two squadmates regardless of whether he knew it was a trap or not it serves nothing more than to make you distrust the Illusive man even more.
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
Edit: I just realized that this beautifully supports my Kaidan argument. Everyone has their limit on what they can accept and what they can't.
Except I never said it was too far, and have argued before in this thread that it's not a problem to accept the event itself of resurrection, especially since it may involve reaper tech and thus be far beyond mortal tech, such that the several-steps-beyond notion of perfectly mimicking brain patterns two years after brain death doesn't need to be gaped at by the player.
The first resurrection would still be a pretty big fucking deal in-universe regardless, and the fact that Kaidan equally weights the resurrection and the working with Cerberus rumors together in literally the same breath, and then immediately zeros in on the Cerberus bit is silly. And maybe Cerberus is working with the collectors? Did you people learn nothing from our time killing Cerberus dudes together?
SoundsPlush on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
It's not that it's hard to believe
I don't like it because it's a crappy plot device that was handled poorly
like the majority of the Main story
Like why the Illusive man didn't tell you the Collector Ship was a trap. It's not like you were going to refuse to go.
The reason he gives is that he had no way of knowing who could be listening in, not that you would refuse to go.
He says that if he needs the Collector's to believe they had the upper hand. And seeing as Shepard would land on the ship armed to the teeth with two squadmates regardless of whether he knew it was a trap or not it serves nothing more than to make you distrust the Illusive man even more.
"I needed the Collectors to believe they had the upper hand. Telling you could've tipped them off in any number of ways."
Sounds like he's concerned about security leaks to me.
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
It's not that it's hard to believe
I don't like it because it's a crappy plot device that was handled poorly
like the majority of the Main story
Like why the Illusive man didn't tell you the Collector Ship was a trap. It's not like you were going to refuse to go.
The reason he gives is that he had no way of knowing who could be listening in, not that you would refuse to go.
He says that if he needs the Collector's to believe they had the upper hand. And seeing as Shepard would land on the ship armed to the teeth with two squadmates regardless of whether he knew it was a trap or not it serves nothing more than to make you distrust the Illusive man even more.
"I needed the Collectors to believe they had the upper hand. Telling you could've tipped them off in any number of ways."
Sounds like he's concerned about security leaks to me.
Who would spill to the Collectors, and more importantly how? They're not easy to contact by any stretch of the imagination.
Did he think the Normandy was going to avoid eye contact, thus tipping them off?
I that people can accept physics-defying mass effect fields, independant and self-determinating artificial intelligence, psychic alien species, and impossibly ancient god-machines... but introduce resurrection and suddenly you've gone too far.
It's not that it's hard to believe
I don't like it because it's a crappy plot device that was handled poorly
like the majority of the Main story
Like why the Illusive man didn't tell you the Collector Ship was a trap. It's not like you were going to refuse to go.
The reason he gives is that he had no way of knowing who could be listening in, not that you would refuse to go.
He says that if he needs the Collector's to believe they had the upper hand. And seeing as Shepard would land on the ship armed to the teeth with two squadmates regardless of whether he knew it was a trap or not it serves nothing more than to make you distrust the Illusive man even more.
"I needed the Collectors to believe they had the upper hand. Telling you could've tipped them off in any number of ways."
Sounds like he's concerned about security leaks to me.
Who would spill to the Collectors, and more importantly how? They're not easy to contact by any stretch of the imagination.
Did he think the Normandy was going to avoid eye contact, thus tipping them off?
Again, security leaks. Doesn't mean agents for the collectors, could be regular old network security. The collectors may have figured out a way to tap in to the Normandy's communications. Or heck, someone indoctrinated by the reapers, maybe?
Again, security leaks. Doesn't mean agents for the collectors, could be regular old network security. The collectors may have figured out a way to tap in to the Normandy's communications. Or heck, someone indoctrinated by the reapers, maybe?
The same communications that the Illusive man talks freely through every other time he contacts you? And if someone on the crew was indoctrinated why would the collectors need the virus in the IFF in order to find the Normandy, TIM could just tell you not to let the crew know instead of completely cutting you out of the loop.
Edit: I'm not saying there aren't security issues, just no one cares about them anywhere else in the game.
Wouldn't it be kind of hard to tap a quantum entanglement comm link? Also, if the collectors got a feed of what TIM had set his camera angle to, the ship would have been a very different experience.
Pervert.
I always assumed they meant like, body language or pheromones or something when they were on the ship. Seeing as we could berserk through that ship one end to the other, I still held it against him.
SoundsPlush on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Wouldn't it be kind of hard to tap a quantum entanglement comm link? Also, if the collectors got a feed of what TIM had set his camera angle to, the ship would have been a very different experience.
Pervert.
I always assumed they meant like, body language or pheromones or something when they were on the ship. Seeing as we could berserk through that ship one end to the other, I still held it against him.
Well there's no question that I still think that TIM is a complete douchebag for doing it, and fuck him, etc. But that doesn't mean that I think he did it just to dick around with Shep.
Given that literally cloning adults of multiple species is not just possible, it's actually feasible (from a military standpoint) and can be done with limited equipment on a bombed out dumpster world, I have to think that resurrecting a human, even from being meat and tubes, is not exactly the leading scientific achievement in recent memory. It's impressive, sure, but so is cloning an army from goo directly into adulthood.
The responses of people like Garrus and Tali to Shepard's return seem to confirm that. Unless, of course, they believe what is a painfully easy explanation: since cloning someone is basically as difficult as making an omlete in the ME universe, Shepard is merely a clone with advance neural circuitry/reprogramming to closely immitate the original Shepard's brain as possbile.
The only people who would really believe otherwise--short of taking Cerberus at their word--are the surgeons who operated on Shepard, and the audience, since we got to watch the cinematic. Otherwise, a perfect clone of Shepard's far more plausible in the ME universe. Would it really even make that much of a difference, given she's packed with artifical upgrades anyway?
The actual rebuilding of an individual likely involved extensive use of cloning technology anyway, simply married to the original brain (or whatever was left of it), along with some impressive reviving of said brain. In effect, Cerberus took the very expensive route, rather than the effecient one--who's to say that a resurrected Shepard would be any more obdient than a clone (and given that Shepard doesn't follow the Cerberus line concerning the Reapers by ME3, it failed anyway). There are possibly other distinct advantages over a reconstructed human instead of a perfect copy (longevity, perhaps?).
They had to have cloned the brain, at least. It is far too delicate to be repairable after what Sheppard went through, even assuming super advanced technology.
Except that Shepard's original body is shown to be undergoing reconstruction. We don't see any vat grown clone organs going in and the like. Even Shepard's necrotic old heart is reanimated with sometype of nanotechnology. You can see implants in the brain as well.
"Meat and tubes" implies the body was intact, just mashed into bloody paste. Reconstructible with advanced technology.
Cloning happens, but is rarely successful. Virmire and Korlus krogan were mentally deficient and probably wouldn't live as long as a normal krogan. Same with Cerberus rachni and thorian creepers. The closest successful clone is Grunt but he isn't a clone.
Do we get any sort of direct statement that all clones--including the obscenely expensive ones not grown in some second-hand tanks on backyard lab in a garbage world--have very limited lifespans? I could have sworn that it was mentioned that cloning organs were used to replaced failed ones--those things obviously have to last for decades, unless we're dealing with Salarians, but I could be mistaken.
Besides, so far, we only know that Shepard's going to survive the period of ME2 and ME3, provided you don't screw up in either game (and that the ending of ME3 doesn't demand her death). The entirety of ME2 could easily happen within just a few months, the same could be true for ME3. What's to say that reconstructed Shepard's natural lifespan is going to be no more than 2 or 3 years? As long as the body stays largely functional for 90% of the time (and another 8% can be covered with implants), that's not a problem for Cerberus--doubly so now that they're gunning for her.
I meant shortened lifespan as a direct result of their mental deficiency. I don't know if clones are inherently shorter-lived. Okeer wouldn't call Grunt "perfect" if he couldn't live as long. But that could be an interesting twist for Shepard in ME3. Are there any obscenely expensive clones? All the ones we've seen have been grown under questionable circumstances, suggesting full-body cloning is illegal.
I think that mental deficiency is something that could be overcome if it was so desired (the clones of Shiala, courtesy of the Creeper, was not just intelligent enough to communicate, but to use biotic powers that were only the product of decades, if not more, of intense commando training from Shiala herself). Given that Shepard's literal thoughts have to be preseveredd, alongside personality and other mental aspects, Cerberus could have addressed it had cloning been the way to go, perhaps. We know of clones that, from what we can tell, are nearly as intelligent and cunning as a sentient being within a few minutes of birth, though that may be purely exceptional and beyond Ceberus' capabilities.
I doubt the legal status of clones plays much into the situation in ME. Bringing someone back from the dead could just as easily be illegal (and just as desireable to many), particularly if there was a distinct intent to make that person dead, or even if a government body had openly declared a person to be dead.
Except that Shepard's original body is shown to be undergoing reconstruction. We don't see any vat grown clone organs going in and the like. Even Shepard's necrotic old heart is reanimated with sometype of nanotechnology. You can see implants in the brain as well.
"Meat and tubes" implies the body was intact, just mashed into bloody paste. Reconstructible with advanced technology.
I should have been cleared on this--but this is what I mean by cloning technology. Not "Okay, get the kidneys out of the tank and stick them in the body." I suspect that cloning technology in ME works through nantechnology or special cybernetics that cause organs, or entire beings, to be rebuilt from raw materials--building off the older technology of medigel. If you wanted a heart, you'd do it in a small tank--if you wanted to rebuild from an existing body, it would be more difficult, since you'd have to make sure the original body wasn't destroyed in the process. Hence why I think, either way, cloning technology was involved with the resurrect, even if Shepard herself isn't a clone necessarily. Just my view on it.
Synthesis on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
Thank you, Synthesis, you've explained it way better than I can.
I meant shortened lifespan as a direct result of their mental deficiency. I don't know if clones are inherently shorter-lived. Okeer wouldn't call Grunt "perfect" if he couldn't live as long. But that could be an interesting twist for Shepard in ME3. Are there any obscenely expensive clones? All the ones we've seen have been grown under questionable circumstances, suggesting full-body cloning is illegal.
Wouldn't Miranda count as an (altered) clone? An obscenely expensive one, at that.
I meant shortened lifespan as a direct result of their mental deficiency. I don't know if clones are inherently shorter-lived. Okeer wouldn't call Grunt "perfect" if he couldn't live as long. But that could be an interesting twist for Shepard in ME3. Are there any obscenely expensive clones? All the ones we've seen have been grown under questionable circumstances, suggesting full-body cloning is illegal.
Wouldn't Miranda count as an (altered) clone? An obscenely expensive one, at that.
I totally forgot about Miranda (what a surprise, hah). She's a clone of her father (albeit with a modified genome), who was "born" four years before Shepard was (2150 versus 2154). As such, she's not a clone grown into adulthood. So, clearly, the technology to make a long-living and intelligent (well, sort of) clone is available to the very rich, and not just people who control their own corporate empires/paramilitary battalions/have the ability to kidnap thousands of people. But Miranda took decades to grow, versus an adult quick-clone (not what Cerberus wants for the Shepard dilemma). Then again, Miranda has minimal cybernetic implants and modifications by comparison, and her strengths come from her genetic makeup, as she's so happy to tell us at every turn ("It's so hard being perfect! Abloo! Abloo!"). That could make up for the difference, potentially.
Anyone else getting the feeling all those faceless Cerberus troopers we've been seeing Shepard slaughter in the previews are going to end up being Shepard clones now? Especially with all the things Bioware's been saying about them, like how they can 'Match Shepard'?
Miranda's not a copy of anyone, she's just genetically engineered. Most people have some gene therapy done in Mass Effect. I guess her sister is technically a clone, but only in the sense that a twin is, rather than copying a person as they are instead of just their DNA.
Thorian clones are impressive but there could still be limitations. To what degree was the clone independent versus controlled by the Thorian? What is the range of its control? Can the clones last longer than the length of a battle?
The President's situation, which I still think Bioware wrote as a hint to how Shepard's brain survived, shows that this whole area is legally murky which in turn suggests it's fairly new technology.
-Tal on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Miranda's not a copy of anyone, she's just genetically engineered. Most people have some gene therapy done in Mass Effect. I guess her sister is technically a clone, but only in the sense that a twin is, rather than copying a person as they are instead of just their DNA.
Miranda is made from a modified copy of her father's genome. As she states, she doesn't have a mother. Her genome did have additions of "desired traits", but she's still 90% clone.
That sounds like the modifications just compensated for the mother. I wouldn't consider a different sex a clone.
I dunno, all you would have to do us use the father's x chromosome again. It's entirely possible that she's still mostly her father, with gene therapy only there to make her 'more perfect'.
Using a modified copy of his own genome, Miranda was genetically engineered to be a specimen of human perfection.
I distinctly remember her alluding to the same in the game as well, so yeah, she's a clone. Referring to her genome as originating from only one person kind of throws out the whole two parent thing. She's a modified clone, but frankly, the fact that she's a woman is a modification to the original genome, I'd imagine. Daddy had a pretty high impression of himself, and unsurprisingly, Miranda did too.
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Edit: I just realized that this beautifully supports my Kaidan argument. Everyone has their limit on what they can accept and what they can't.
It's not that it's hard to believe
I don't like it because it's a crappy plot device that was handled poorly
like the majority of the Main story
how are they all "naturally" biotic? are they born with eezo in their nerves? do they have natural implants? how could either of these things happen?
Like why the Illusive man didn't tell you the Collector Ship was a trap. It's not like you were going to refuse to go.
The reason he gives is that he had no way of knowing who could be listening in, not that you would refuse to go.
Like how Mordin has a plot device seeker that he pulled out of his ass
Like how the collectors attacked Horizon to get the Virmire Survivor, stung them first and promptly let them go
Like how the Collectors have no real plan. Do they plan on attacking the Citadel or Earth with their one ship?
Maybe eezo exists in a gaseous state on the Asari home world?
would have been better if they had put the sliders before the normandy destruction then
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
He says that if he needs the Collector's to believe they had the upper hand. And seeing as Shepard would land on the ship armed to the teeth with two squadmates regardless of whether he knew it was a trap or not it serves nothing more than to make you distrust the Illusive man even more.
Except I never said it was too far, and have argued before in this thread that it's not a problem to accept the event itself of resurrection, especially since it may involve reaper tech and thus be far beyond mortal tech, such that the several-steps-beyond notion of perfectly mimicking brain patterns two years after brain death doesn't need to be gaped at by the player.
The first resurrection would still be a pretty big fucking deal in-universe regardless, and the fact that Kaidan equally weights the resurrection and the working with Cerberus rumors together in literally the same breath, and then immediately zeros in on the Cerberus bit is silly. And maybe Cerberus is working with the collectors? Did you people learn nothing from our time killing Cerberus dudes together?
"I needed the Collectors to believe they had the upper hand. Telling you could've tipped them off in any number of ways."
Sounds like he's concerned about security leaks to me.
Who would spill to the Collectors, and more importantly how? They're not easy to contact by any stretch of the imagination.
Did he think the Normandy was going to avoid eye contact, thus tipping them off?
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Again, security leaks. Doesn't mean agents for the collectors, could be regular old network security. The collectors may have figured out a way to tap in to the Normandy's communications. Or heck, someone indoctrinated by the reapers, maybe?
Also Jacob's colossal failure right at the start of 2.
Don't think I forgot about that Jacob oh no.
The same communications that the Illusive man talks freely through every other time he contacts you? And if someone on the crew was indoctrinated why would the collectors need the virus in the IFF in order to find the Normandy, TIM could just tell you not to let the crew know instead of completely cutting you out of the loop.
Edit: I'm not saying there aren't security issues, just no one cares about them anywhere else in the game.
I always assumed they meant like, body language or pheromones or something when they were on the ship. Seeing as we could berserk through that ship one end to the other, I still held it against him.
Well there's no question that I still think that TIM is a complete douchebag for doing it, and fuck him, etc. But that doesn't mean that I think he did it just to dick around with Shep.
The responses of people like Garrus and Tali to Shepard's return seem to confirm that. Unless, of course, they believe what is a painfully easy explanation: since cloning someone is basically as difficult as making an omlete in the ME universe, Shepard is merely a clone with advance neural circuitry/reprogramming to closely immitate the original Shepard's brain as possbile.
The only people who would really believe otherwise--short of taking Cerberus at their word--are the surgeons who operated on Shepard, and the audience, since we got to watch the cinematic. Otherwise, a perfect clone of Shepard's far more plausible in the ME universe. Would it really even make that much of a difference, given she's packed with artifical upgrades anyway?
The actual rebuilding of an individual likely involved extensive use of cloning technology anyway, simply married to the original brain (or whatever was left of it), along with some impressive reviving of said brain. In effect, Cerberus took the very expensive route, rather than the effecient one--who's to say that a resurrected Shepard would be any more obdient than a clone (and given that Shepard doesn't follow the Cerberus line concerning the Reapers by ME3, it failed anyway). There are possibly other distinct advantages over a reconstructed human instead of a perfect copy (longevity, perhaps?).
"Meat and tubes" implies the body was intact, just mashed into bloody paste. Reconstructible with advanced technology.
Besides, so far, we only know that Shepard's going to survive the period of ME2 and ME3, provided you don't screw up in either game (and that the ending of ME3 doesn't demand her death). The entirety of ME2 could easily happen within just a few months, the same could be true for ME3. What's to say that reconstructed Shepard's natural lifespan is going to be no more than 2 or 3 years? As long as the body stays largely functional for 90% of the time (and another 8% can be covered with implants), that's not a problem for Cerberus--doubly so now that they're gunning for her.
I doubt the legal status of clones plays much into the situation in ME. Bringing someone back from the dead could just as easily be illegal (and just as desireable to many), particularly if there was a distinct intent to make that person dead, or even if a government body had openly declared a person to be dead.
I should have been cleared on this--but this is what I mean by cloning technology. Not "Okay, get the kidneys out of the tank and stick them in the body." I suspect that cloning technology in ME works through nantechnology or special cybernetics that cause organs, or entire beings, to be rebuilt from raw materials--building off the older technology of medigel. If you wanted a heart, you'd do it in a small tank--if you wanted to rebuild from an existing body, it would be more difficult, since you'd have to make sure the original body wasn't destroyed in the process. Hence why I think, either way, cloning technology was involved with the resurrect, even if Shepard herself isn't a clone necessarily. Just my view on it.
Wouldn't Miranda count as an (altered) clone? An obscenely expensive one, at that.
I totally forgot about Miranda (what a surprise, hah). She's a clone of her father (albeit with a modified genome), who was "born" four years before Shepard was (2150 versus 2154). As such, she's not a clone grown into adulthood. So, clearly, the technology to make a long-living and intelligent (well, sort of) clone is available to the very rich, and not just people who control their own corporate empires/paramilitary battalions/have the ability to kidnap thousands of people. But Miranda took decades to grow, versus an adult quick-clone (not what Cerberus wants for the Shepard dilemma). Then again, Miranda has minimal cybernetic implants and modifications by comparison, and her strengths come from her genetic makeup, as she's so happy to tell us at every turn ("It's so hard being perfect! Abloo! Abloo!"). That could make up for the difference, potentially.
(Roosevelt was the second one but he put matters on hold until the global economy could support it.)
I'm totally going to be disappointing by the lack of Orange Catholic fundies lining up for gooification, aren't I.
Thorian clones are impressive but there could still be limitations. To what degree was the clone independent versus controlled by the Thorian? What is the range of its control? Can the clones last longer than the length of a battle?
The President's situation, which I still think Bioware wrote as a hint to how Shepard's brain survived, shows that this whole area is legally murky which in turn suggests it's fairly new technology.
Miranda is made from a modified copy of her father's genome. As she states, she doesn't have a mother. Her genome did have additions of "desired traits", but she's still 90% clone.
I dunno, all you would have to do us use the father's x chromosome again. It's entirely possible that she's still mostly her father, with gene therapy only there to make her 'more perfect'.
Extensive, yes, but still might be mostly her father.
It's the way she phrases it that makes me think she's mostly a clone. Not "I have many mothers" but "I have no mother"
Err. Maybe she says that because, you know, she doesn't have a mother. I think you're reading abit too far into it really.
Err...according to the Mass Effect wiki....
I distinctly remember her alluding to the same in the game as well, so yeah, she's a clone. Referring to her genome as originating from only one person kind of throws out the whole two parent thing. She's a modified clone, but frankly, the fact that she's a woman is a modification to the original genome, I'd imagine. Daddy had a pretty high impression of himself, and unsurprisingly, Miranda did too.
DUN DUN DUN