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Dishonored: Reviews are in, it's good! Completion hours equivalent to penis length.

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Posts

  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Yet she is the main character, and if for fun someone wrote a version where it was just presumed she spoke and acted the same as she did in the book it would not be as entertaining because we would lose out on a wonderful character and opinions that help fill us in on the situation.

    I get that you don't like having speaking protagonists, but saying that you don't like it because their speech will not match up perfectly to your playstyle or interpretation of the character is silly. By that argument no character we are given agency of should speak at all because it may contradict what we as players thought we were playing.


    I used to shotgun every person who spoke to me in half life 1 in the face after I no longer needed them. I found the "wobble before they fall over" animation really amusing.

    Half life 2 was slightly odd. Gordon the hero! Yeah. Just be glad you guys can't be shot. >_>

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
    Mild Confusion
  • SoundsPlushSoundsPlush yup, back. Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Flippy_D wrote: »
    As I said previously, interpretation is a privilege and burden. We are granted it because - especially in a multilayered narrative with differing outcomes and ways to kill or not kill - Corvo is an extension of ourselves. In Dishonoured, the developer maturely respects the act of interpretation and relinquishes the author's intent. I am thankful for this, because imposed dialogue would have inevitably not reflected my own designs on the world. When playing a first person game I will always prefer the silent protagonist. Demanding that the game offers you a set reaction or interpretation feels like the player's shortcoming, not the game's.

    Trying to apply death of the author to this debate is ridiculous, and not just because videogames are made by hundreds of people. It's a critical theory addressing whether you need to know anything about the author to understand the work. Whether Arkane voices their protagonist is a completely unrelated discussion. Let's not pretend they've given up intent; you can't stop him from hugging Emily each time, or guiding her by the hand, or drinking an offered glass, and you're given binary, unvoiced responses at certain points. Does this interfere with your immersion, watching Corvo act stupidly in a cutscene? If you simply wish to say he's barely a character, very well, but let's not confuse the issue. I'd add that voicing the response lines or putting other minor vocalizations wouldn't interfere with any interpretation other than "the sound of his voice."

    This is again incredibly vague to the point of preventing reply:
    The inclusion of Tidus was perhaps supercilious, but frankly the majority of games botch protagonist speech. I could probably count the exceptions on two hands: GTA, Uncharted... And, by the by, those only work because yes, they are well-executed, but also they fit into the structure and philosophy of the game. The same rules do not apply to every narrative act, and especially not first person cameras. I can't begin to tell you how ridiculous I find much of the trailer footage for Bioshock Infinite.

    Only GTA and Uncharted did voiced protagonists well? Why does that fit into the "structure and philosophy" or "narrative set" of the game? Why do you find the trailer ridiculous?

    It sounds like you just have a fundamental problem playing a character instead of a cipher.

    SoundsPlush on
    s7Imn5J.png
  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I just want to chime in on the silent protagonist discussion going on.

    It's one of those tropes that can only work in certain situations. I find that in games that are heavily voiced such as this, NPC's talking to a brick wall comes off as contrived or strange. It's very difficult for me to suspend my disbelief when a spoken response is expected and natural, but the main character instead says nothing and the NPC I'm "conversing" with continues as if I responded.

    I used to accept silent protags more readily in past gens when voice acting in games was so awful it was more detrimental to the narrative to voice the character than not. However, since we're long since past those days, I don't have the same acceptance of the practice.

    In a game where dialogue is rare/non-existant to begin with, a silent protagonist makes more sense.

    Then there's the established silent protagonists. I can deal with Link being silent because it's been long since established he's a silent protag. He's been silent so long that it would be weird if Nintendo suddenly gave him a voice.

    Silent protagonists can work, but it has to work within the narrative. In Dishonored, it often feels like they had voiced lines for Corvo (which is a known fact), but removed them too far into development to fix the narrative to work with a silent protag.

    Basically, I always look at it this way: Would the narrative be better if my protagonist spoke? If Yes, then there's a problem. If not, then carry on Mutey McMuterson.

    Ragnar Dragonfyre on
    steam_sig.png
    Albino Bunny
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    silent protagonists work best when you've got something approaching a blank slate.

    How anyone could argue that this:

    Corvo-Attano-from-Dishonored-by-Julia-Lichty.jpg

    is a blank slate is beyond me

    Read my blog about AMERICA and THE BAY AREA

    https://medium.com/@alascii
    vegeta_666Albino Bunny
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    Basically what I'm saying is that the Adam Jensen solution to protagonists in a game with a decent amount of freedom is much better than the Corvo Attano solution. I'd argue that Adam is no more or less a blank slate than Corvo, because he talks when it is necessary to do so yet you are still able to project just as much of your self on him as you are with Corvo.

    Read my blog about AMERICA and THE BAY AREA

    https://medium.com/@alascii
    Ragnar Dragonfyre
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    rats are adorable

    Albino Bunny
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    i never felt i could project anything onto adam jensen

    Dark Raven XDerrick
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    for me, a good example of a protagonist who would have done better silent is Alex Mercer from Prototype 1 and James Heller from Prototype 2.

    The problem with having so much freedom in the game, is that you can spend your entire gameplay running around slaughtering civilians on the way to missions, after missions, before missions, and during missions, and yet during the cutscenes, for obvious reasons, no acknowledgement is given of what you're doing. In fact, the storyline actively works against what you're doing, because Mercer is going around saving people and saving the city but also slaughtering every living resident. It makes no narrative sense.

    I feel you would have a similar problem with Corvo, because you have so much freedom, it would be a ton of work making a voiced protagonist who had the correct attitude based on what you were actually doing in game.

  • SoundsPlushSoundsPlush yup, back. Registered User regular
    rats are adorable

    Corvo's mask expression is screaming Lennie Small.

    s7Imn5J.png
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    I think Adam Jensen is a good way to do it because pretty much his only characteristics are

    a) he didn't want this
    b) wants to find out what happened to his girlfriend
    c) yeah, rip

    and even if he wasn't voiced, those things would be part of his character (except yeah rip and that would be terrible).

    You never find out if Adam cares about slaughtering mooks with his undesired knife arms because that part is up to you. He's still a player surrogate because all of his reactions to things are natural within the games framework of you having to do what people say. It works!

    Read my blog about AMERICA and THE BAY AREA

    https://medium.com/@alascii
  • Twenty SidedTwenty Sided Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention early on, but do they even state why the Outsider takes an interest in Corvo?

    I do agree that he should have been voiced. The silent protagonist always feels like lazy writing. I realize you don't always nail what the audience feels, but when I decide to spare someone versus jab a sword in their throat I want something more than a note on the mission summary screen.

    He's "interesting." I took this to mean that he's a highly capable individual who's revenge straddles the Great Fulcrum of History.

    I have few or no opinions on silent protagonists in that games are abstract-y things, as are narrative conventions like "characters" and "plot." These tie in some way to "proper" writing but I'm not fully convinced of that. A great deal relies on suspension of disbelief and silent protagonists are one of those abstractions that simply don't bother me.

    Voiced or unvoiced makes no difference to me. It's a horse apiece either way. There are simply parts of the game which you are audience to, not pretend-participants thereof. Voicework is a rather trivial piece of that dynamic.

    EDIT:
    By the by, it's fallacious to conflate silence with lack of character. Corvo has a very specific role in the story with a couple of "what if" spin off versions of himself.
    Nor is blistering detail of character necessary to serve the needs of a story. It's just what people expect and lazily assume constitutes "good writing."
    The rats also don't really say anything, but they're also a character in a sense.

    Twenty Sided on
    Flippy_D
  • Twenty SidedTwenty Sided Registered User regular
    BTW, I can't be the only person who wants a full replica of Corvo's mask.

    Albino BunnySirialis
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Also BTW the DLC is out.

  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    What's up with Bethesda games and not announcing PC dlc?

    steam_sig.png

    Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
  • LalaboxLalabox Registered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    I think Adam Jensen is a good way to do it because pretty much his only characteristics are

    a) he didn't want this
    b) wants to find out what happened to his girlfriend
    c) yeah, rip

    and even if he wasn't voiced, those things would be part of his character (except yeah rip and that would be terrible).

    You never find out if Adam cares about slaughtering mooks with his undesired knife arms because that part is up to you. He's still a player surrogate because all of his reactions to things are natural within the games framework of you having to do what people say. It works!

    rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/24/i-am-not-adam-jensen/

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    What's up with Bethesda games and not announcing PC dlc?
    It was announced more than a month ago and then again a couple weeks ago and then again last week so...

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Haha, so funny story about the Boyle Estate. Actual spoilers.
    On my first, medium-chaos run, Waverly was the spymaster's lover, and wearing white.

    So on my second, high-chaos run, I had my fun upstairs, dueled Lord Shaw in the garden (shot his two guards while Bend Time was still active, too), ransacked the place, all that jazz. Made sure to read Waverly's journal while I was up there, but didn't really pay attention, just thought I was triggering the next objective so I could kill her and leave.

    Went downstairs, got the drink for what's-her-name, and "found out" that Waverly was wearing white. Followed her into an empty room, possessed her into a corner, and did the deed. Shadow Kill meant no clean-up.

    So then I work my way outside and up over the fence. I'm just about to blink down into the moat and meet up with Samuel when I realize...

    ...I never saw the "Target Assassinated" pop-up.

    Turns out, Lady Boyle is a different Lady Boyle each game. I'd just straight-up murdered Waverly Boyle for no good reason. Guards, I can deal with. They're hostile and this is a high-chaos run. But this was really not what I intended, and now I'm standing out on the street realizing that I've gotta go back in there.

    Pretty much me: thisisawkward.png

    PEUsig_zps56da03ec.jpg
    Albino BunnyDhalphirDark Raven XMild Confusion
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Haha, so funny story about the Boyle Estate. Actual spoilers.
    On my first, medium-chaos run, Waverly was the spymaster's lover, and wearing white.

    So on my second, high-chaos run, I had my fun upstairs, dueled Lord Shaw in the garden (shot his two guards while Bend Time was still active, too), ransacked the place, all that jazz. Made sure to read Waverly's journal while I was up there, but didn't really pay attention, just thought I was triggering the next objective so I could kill her and leave.

    Went downstairs, got the drink for what's-her-name, and "found out" that Waverly was wearing white. Followed her into an empty room, possessed her into a corner, and did the deed. Shadow Kill meant no clean-up.

    So then I work my way outside and up over the fence. I'm just about to blink down into the moat and meet up with Samuel when I realize...

    ...I never saw the "Target Assassinated" pop-up.

    Turns out, Lady Boyle is a different Lady Boyle each game. I'd just straight-up murdered Waverly Boyle for no good reason. Guards, I can deal with. They're hostile and this is a high-chaos run. But this was really not what I intended, and now I'm standing out on the street realizing that I've gotta go back in there.

    Pretty much me: thisisawkward.png

    The duel is one of my favourite spots. I love thinking of different ways to do it.

    on my last playthrough
    When the countdown ended I slowed time (I never get Bend Time 2 anymore, it feels too much like cheating), blinked up to shaw's face and assassinated him with my blade.

  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Is there a nonlethal way to resolve that duel?

    PEUsig_zps56da03ec.jpg
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Tranq dart.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Is there a nonlethal way to resolve that duel?
    You can shoot him with a tranq, and I think it still registers as a victory. I know the guards think he's dead - they still say "well that's another patron dead". I don't know if thats a bug or a very clever reference to uneducated lower middle class in Dishonored's world.

  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    What about "Bend Time + Blink + HULK CHOKE"?

    PEUsig_zps56da03ec.jpg
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Tranq dart counts as a body found, but not as a kill (I tranq'd him in my Clean Hands run ;D) and it doesn't invalidate Ghost either, so there's no reason not to tranq him. It seems less risky than busting out magic in front of the armed guards.

    Oh brilliant
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    the guards don't notice time stop usage if its rank 2

    Dhalphir on
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    If the game hadn't done well I doubt we would care this much about the silent protagonist thing. It's interesting now because it appears it's done well enough to get a sequel and part of the way you expand into a good sequel is by flushing out the story. There's only so much they can do with new powers or replacing powers for a new character or whatever they do. For it not to feel like just more of the same, they have to expand the story. Is it possible to have a voiced main character in Dishonered 2:The Dishonering? I have no idea.

    But let's imagine if during the scene where the Empress dies, you clutch her dying body and instead of just sitting there, Corvo says the Empresses' name. First time through the game you don't think much of it.

    Now throughout the game they hint at the possible relationship between Corvo and the Empresses, so this builds up in your mind throughout the game. You then play through the game a 2nd time, get to the part where Corvo says the Empresses name and suddenly you place emotion into the way he says her name. Corvo has now become a complex character, not because there were lengthy exposition from Corvo that you may or may not agree with, but because you decide to interpret the emotion in his words. You also add into the experience of playing the game a 2nd time, besides seeing how many guards you can murder in 30 seconds.

    PSN SeGaTai
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    Haha, so funny story about the Boyle Estate. Actual spoilers.
    On my first, medium-chaos run, Waverly was the spymaster's lover, and wearing white.

    So on my second, high-chaos run, I had my fun upstairs, dueled Lord Shaw in the garden (shot his two guards while Bend Time was still active, too), ransacked the place, all that jazz. Made sure to read Waverly's journal while I was up there, but didn't really pay attention, just thought I was triggering the next objective so I could kill her and leave.

    Went downstairs, got the drink for what's-her-name, and "found out" that Waverly was wearing white. Followed her into an empty room, possessed her into a corner, and did the deed. Shadow Kill meant no clean-up.

    So then I work my way outside and up over the fence. I'm just about to blink down into the moat and meet up with Samuel when I realize...

    ...I never saw the "Target Assassinated" pop-up.

    Turns out, Lady Boyle is a different Lady Boyle each game. I'd just straight-up murdered Waverly Boyle for no good reason. Guards, I can deal with. They're hostile and this is a high-chaos run. But this was really not what I intended, and now I'm standing out on the street realizing that I've gotta go back in there.

    Pretty much me: thisisawkward.png

    Yup.

    I also realized that for a future, non-scrupulous run you can just
    murder all three of them
    problem solved.

  • DrunkMcDrunkMc Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    How's the DLC? It sounds like the Challenge Maps from BATMAN:AA / AC.

    DrunkMc on
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    I've heard they are pretty great. I bought them but haven't played them yet.

  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    Bleh even with the patch I didn't get Clean Hands, I guess a weeper drowned somewhere or the assassins in the prologue counted.

    Oh well, time to make up for it by doing a playthrough where I murder literally everyone.

  • rRootagearRootagea MadisonRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    If the game hadn't done well I doubt we would care this much about the silent protagonist thing. It's interesting now because it appears it's done well enough to get a sequel and part of the way you expand into a good sequel is by flushing out the story. There's only so much they can do with new powers or replacing powers for a new character or whatever they do. For it not to feel like just more of the same, they have to expand the story. Is it possible to have a voiced main character in Dishonered 2:The Dishonering? I have no idea.

    But let's imagine if during the scene where the Empress dies, you clutch her dying body and instead of just sitting there, Corvo says the Empresses' name. First time through the game you don't think much of it.

    Now throughout the game they hint at the possible relationship between Corvo and the Empresses, so this builds up in your mind throughout the game. You then play through the game a 2nd time, get to the part where Corvo says the Empresses name and suddenly you place emotion into the way he says her name. Corvo has now become a complex character, not because there were lengthy exposition from Corvo that you may or may not agree with, but because you decide to interpret the emotion in his words. You also add into the experience of playing the game a 2nd time, besides seeing how many guards you can murder in 30 seconds.

    Yes, and maybe add some first person tears to express sadness, blurring and streaking the edges.
    darkening the top of the screen in a wedge for a furrowed and angry brow
    increasing brightness for a panicked state
    jittering the field of view and focus point for a confused and bewildered Corvo.


    rRootagea on
  • Twenty SidedTwenty Sided Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Aistan wrote: »
    Bleh even with the patch I didn't get Clean Hands, I guess a weeper drowned somewhere or the assassins in the prologue counted.

    Oh well, time to make up for it by doing a playthrough where I murder literally everyone.

    The assassins at the start don't count since they 'blink' away when struck. The mission stats screen also tells you if you've done a nonlethal run and you can restart that mission based on that.

    SeGaTai wrote: »
    If the game hadn't done well I doubt we would care this much about the silent protagonist thing. It's interesting now because it appears it's done well enough to get a sequel and part of the way you expand into a good sequel is by flushing out the story. There's only so much they can do with new powers or replacing powers for a new character or whatever they do. For it not to feel like just more of the same, they have to expand the story. Is it possible to have a voiced main character in Dishonered 2:The Dishonering? I have no idea.

    I and others touched on this earlier but there's plenty of material to work with. There are other continents and plenty of interesting enemies or challenges you can implement.

    I have no problem with silent protagonists as it in no way would've made or broke the game.

    I did suggest Daud being a protagonist for a sequel but he's already getting a DLC. The other suggestion I gave is to make it so that Corvo's "Masked Man" has become an urban legend, a boogeyman. You know, something along the lines of Spring-Heeled Jack or Jack The Ripper. The next protagonist inherits the mask and role, possibly because he was given the mask by The Outsider.

    Twenty Sided on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    Dishonored 2: Dunwall Oliver Twist

    Read my blog about AMERICA and THE BAY AREA

    https://medium.com/@alascii
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    Bleh even with the patch I didn't get Clean Hands, I guess a weeper drowned somewhere or the assassins in the prologue counted.

    Oh well, time to make up for it by doing a playthrough where I murder literally everyone.

    The assassins at the start don't count since they 'blink' away when struck. The mission stats screen also tells you if you've done a nonlethal run and you can restart that mission based on that.

    SeGaTai wrote: »
    If the game hadn't done well I doubt we would care this much about the silent protagonist thing. It's interesting now because it appears it's done well enough to get a sequel and part of the way you expand into a good sequel is by flushing out the story. There's only so much they can do with new powers or replacing powers for a new character or whatever they do. For it not to feel like just more of the same, they have to expand the story. Is it possible to have a voiced main character in Dishonered 2:The Dishonering? I have no idea.

    I and others touched on this earlier but there's plenty of material to work with. There are other continents and plenty of interesting enemies or challenges you can implement.

    I have no problem with silent protagonists as it in no way would've made or broke the game.

    I did suggest Daud being a protagonist for a sequel but he's already getting a DLC. The other suggestion I gave is to make it so that Corvo's "Masked Man" has become an urban legend, a boogeyman. You know, something along the lines of Spring-Heeled Jack or Jack The Ripper. The next protagonist inherits the mask and role, possibly because he was given the mask by The Outsider.

    I like this idea. I like this idea a lot.

    PEUsig_zps56da03ec.jpg
    Albino Bunny
  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Aistan wrote: »
    Bleh even with the patch I didn't get Clean Hands, I guess a weeper drowned somewhere or the assassins in the prologue counted.

    Oh well, time to make up for it by doing a playthrough where I murder literally everyone.

    The assassins at the start don't count since they 'blink' away when struck. The mission stats screen also tells you if you've done a nonlethal run and you can restart that mission based on that.

    Right. All my missions have zero kills in them, and unless Steam didn't patch my game for some reason the Granny Rags problem shouldn't be an issue anymore. Still no dice.

    Aistan on
  • APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    Just started this game last night, having completed my requirements of having finished both Trine 2 and Hotline Miami.

    Right off the bat I can say I love the art design, all the lore and the looting. I only just started the first mission after meeting The Outsider, so ill be getting a real taste of the gameplay now. On advice of chat, I will probably not be trying for any specific play goal this run through. Probably will be killing dudes. Especially since the Heart makes it so tempting.

    I do want to say that the default keybindings are a hot mess. I had to flip the mouse buttons and rebind Choke to make it playable.

    Albino BunnyTychoCelchuuu
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    I do want to say that the default keybindings are a hot mess. I had to flip the mouse buttons and rebind Choke to make it playable.
    I stuck choke on one of my thumb mouse buttons. Worked pretty well.

  • APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    I do want to say that the default keybindings are a hot mess. I had to flip the mouse buttons and rebind Choke to make it playable.
    I stuck choke on one of my thumb mouse buttons. Worked pretty well.

    I didn't even THINK of that! Having a nice mouse is still a new experience for me! Ill rebind it that way when I get home. Thanks!

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Flip the mouse buttons? Why'd you need to do that?

    I mean I get that, logically, its slightly more intuitive to have right mouse button -> right hand and left button -> left hand but there is years of FPS-convention backing up the fact that main-hand -> left button and off-hand -> right button.

  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    I was tempted to do it because it irritated me for about half my first run. Especially as for the vast majority of play styles your off hand is the main one used anyway (seriously, why the fuck do you always need a sword out when it's about the least used thing for several playstyles and is never used in non lethal run throughs).

    I got over it but I suspect that if I hadn't being busy being enthralled by it I'd have just re-bound them. Same with choke, that is annoying to do.

  • SoundsPlushSoundsPlush yup, back. Registered User regular
    While the sword isn't often used outside of killing dudes, you can still use it to clang against a wall and draw a guard out of their search pattern.

    s7Imn5J.png
    Gandalf_the_Crazed
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