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"It ain't exactly Shakespeare..."
LBD_Nytetrayn
TorontoRegistered User regular
TorontoRegistered User regular
When it comes to stories in games, how often does it seem like a line such as that comes up? It's a definite given for something like Mario, even on his best day, no matter how otherwise enjoyable the game is.
But what about other games? Games known more for characterization and story? Your Halos, your Final Fantasies, your... er, Mortal Kombats?
Anyway. The wife is writing a piece regarding why video game stories are typically cheesey. In a good way, mind, that fits the medium, though "the average RPG plot would never make it past an editor's slush pile."
Not that we can't love them. I've got a friend who rags on the story to Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin, and along with another, talk about how cliche' all the characters are.
I never even noticed, as I had a blast running around and beating the crap out of things many times over. In fact, the story was part of what drew me to this particular title, after a CV hiatus of many years.
And hey, if something you said is used, you might even get your name in print. Well, as "print" as a website counts for, anyway.
But what about other games? Games known more for characterization and story? Your Halos, your Final Fantasies, your... er, Mortal Kombats?
Anyway. The wife is writing a piece regarding why video game stories are typically cheesey. In a good way, mind, that fits the medium, though "the average RPG plot would never make it past an editor's slush pile."
Not that we can't love them. I've got a friend who rags on the story to Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin, and along with another, talk about how cliche' all the characters are.
I never even noticed, as I had a blast running around and beating the crap out of things many times over. In fact, the story was part of what drew me to this particular title, after a CV hiatus of many years.
But for some reason, that doesn't make them any less appealing. I love big stupid video game plots. And so do you. Share your reasons why. Which ones are your favourites? Are there any games you think are deserving of being held in the same regard as published novels?
In that vein, has anyone read any of the novelisations of games like Halo? How do the writing and plot hold up? I'll probably be picking up a copy to skim through.
The appeal of game plots. DISCUSS.
And hey, if something you said is used, you might even get your name in print. Well, as "print" as a website counts for, anyway.
Like Mega Man Legends? Then check out my story, Legends of the Halcyon Era - An Adventure in the World of Mega Man Legends on TMMN and AO3!
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That said, I can't really think of many games with an actually good STORY, there are plenty with good storytelling and such, but very few with a story that actually sounds interesting to anyone who doesn't play video games.
I actually loved the story in Shadow of the Colossus and Ico. I know there wasn't much of one, but they were so well told that it didn't matter that the concept was simple. Oh, and HL + HL2 had fantastic writing.
FFXII would be a decent example of style without substance - and in this case I think the lack of substance helped it a bit instead, because there's nothing worse than a game getting too wrapped up in its own maudlin writing (Xenogears comes to mind here). Give me a generic story with some wickedly cool characters - Balthier - anytime.
Or, better yet, give me stories that act as indispensible elements of the game itself, rather than just propulsion devices. Games like Silent Hill 2 and Killer7 had excellent stories because the games themselves were irremovable from their events; the mythos of Silent Hill was just as important as which odd key you had to pick up next, and if you took away Killer7's story you'd be left with a rather one-dimensional shooter. The fact that both plots were well-written and (at least in Killer7's case) well-acted also helped tremendously.
Otherwise, the plots of video games are judged on how many fireworks they throw in your face before the credits roll. It's not the best state of things, but it's sort of understandable; I doubt that the vasat majority of gamers want their brains taxed just so they can keep entertaining themselves.
It's a difference of what the audience expects. In a book, the story is everything there is. In a video game, there is a story, but there can also be a battled system, interesting game mechanics, or just mindless fun. Disgaea wasn't purchased for the epic tale of Laharl's ascension to the throne. It was bought for battles, the Item World, and Etna's ridiculously short skirt. Elebits isn't flying off the shelves thanks to an engrossing narrative; it's moving because it's fun to trash a house looking for tiny pastel life forms and sucking them up with HL2's gravity gun.
Don't get me wrong, there are some games where story is king, and these games, in my opinion, could have made excellent books or television series. Games like Myst immediately spring to mind. It's not about gameplay; it's about feeling lonely and furthering the narrative.
Asking "why are video game stories often of lower quality than their book and film counterparts" is like asking why do children's programs teach addition instead of complex calculus.
Nobody expects Ghost Rider to rival Shakespeare or Browning, but people will go see it because they just want to have a good time. The same thing applies to video games. It's all about what the audience wants, and that makes a lot more sense when video games are considered a medium through which a story can be told rather than a genre unto themselves.
Gear
Solid.
The most ridiculous and contrived plotting in the world.
Animal Crossing - 3566 5318 4585/2492 7891 0383 Deacon/Akisha in Crayon
Games like Metroid Prime fly in the face of this theory since MP had an adequate story but I still say the more your speaking roles are required in your game, the better the script ends up being.
That'll show 'em.
UGH.
:P
At the current rate, I won't see a third until at least 2013.
The interesting result is games like Shadow of the Colossus, which really has no story, but exists almost purely as an experience of atmosphere and tone, with no real coherent narrative beyond a very, very basic plot line. Even more so is Ico, which has less intense gameplay and thus leaves the player focused more on the experience itself.
That annoyed the hell out of me
Press "A" to stab!
Caesar: "Et tu Brute!"
You Win!
(Hehe, just couldn't help it.)
But there is one that could definitely work. Phoenix Wright.
I WILL NOT BE DOING 3DS FOR NWC THREAD. SOMEONE ELSE WILL HAVE TO TAKE OVER.
Spoiler contains Friend Codes. Won't you be my friend?
More Friend Codes!
Mario Kart Wii: 3136-6982-0286 Tetris Party: 2364 1569 4310
Guitar Hero: Metallica: 1032 7229 7191
TATSUNOKO VS CAPCOM: 1935-2070-9123
Nintendo DS:
Worms: Open Warfare 2: 1418-7870-1606 Space Bust-a-Move: 017398 403043
Scribblenauts: 1290-7509-5558
So what can you do?
As if amnesia wasn't already the most overused cheesy plot device in videogaming, Planescape uses it in spades. Falls From Grace didn't even have a backstory, if I remember correctly.
For some reason, the plot of Okage Shadow King appealed to me very much. I think it's mostly because it didn't make any damn sense, which made it amusing and really the only reason I endured those terrible excuses for 'dungeons.'
I see where you're coming from on this point, but part of this is also looking at the growing complexity of game stories, the comparisons drawn (by creators and fans) to other mediums, not to mention the fact that numerous titles have crossed over into others.
The worst, to me personally, is something like Mega Man, where there's a LOT more to be told than what's in the games, but it's only available in Japanese inside the covers of soundtracks or in guidebooks.
Hey, I wasn't looking at every game in existance when I said that. It's more like a line I've seen bandied about here and there when describing stories in some games. Usually Mario or Sonic or the like, but still. ;P
Like Mega Man Legends? Then check out my story, Legends of the Halcyon Era - An Adventure in the World of Mega Man Legends on TMMN and AO3!
Also in this sense, however, it would be very difficult for any game story to reach Shakespeare levels, due to the technical limitations many games have faced, undercutting their effectivness at presentation and making them increasingly hard to find and experience as time goes on.
Well, if it's context and detail that make a fine game, Oregon Trail must be a literary masterpiece.
The Columbia River is 9 meters deep in the middle. What would you like to do?
> Attempt to ford the river.
Shithead has drowned.
Tits McGee has drowned.
You lost 35 boxes of bullets.
You lost 945 pounds of food.
posted this in another thread, but again, there's valid points about games being taken seriously for what they are, rather than compared to other arts.
...it was JUST a FIGURE of SPEECH! /_\
Lord, maybe I should just change the title of the thread...
Like Mega Man Legends? Then check out my story, Legends of the Halcyon Era - An Adventure in the World of Mega Man Legends on TMMN and AO3!
In order to grow, gaming needs to respect itself. Developers will need a desire to be proud of their products. That means refraining from shipping out a game with a bare bones plot or cliched characters. As media, games have the potential to send messages, to create atmosphere, to make us feel things. It is just a matter of time before somebody seizes this potential.
Edit: I should add the advantage that games have over any other medium- true, active participation. The player (or players) of a game are more than viewers interpreting a painting or forming images from a novel. They have the ability to alter the gamespace, and they are (often) responsible for the life of the character they have been commissioned to control.
The possibilities of gaming and storytelling excites me, because it is an entirely new field which is, for the most part, unexplored. There are so many ways to tell a story in a game that cannot be done in a film or book. For this to happen, though, it's likely that the way in which the industry works will need to shift. EA has no incentive to try a possibly divisive experimental format. The drives of independent producers will have to be fostered. The field of indy gaming, which exists right now but is mostly insignificant, will need to expand.
"frilly?"
You know, I'd debate whether you've ever read much literature or watched many films of actual quality if that's what you thought it was, particularly if you missed the point of Planescape so much as to think the "twist" was its entire purpose.
The reason that Torment get mentioned (quite rightly) in every one of these threads is entirely because, unlike pretty much every other game out there and many Hollywood film, it rises above basing its plot and storytelling around cheap mechanics like plot twists. They're there, obviously, but they're not what makes the story work- it's the character development, quality of dialogue and description, richness of setting and sometimes sheer lyricism of the passages involved.
I'm afraid your post betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what good writing actually is.
I mean, the story to Max Payne is just as good as Pride and Prejudice.
What does Pride and Prejudice contribute to society? (Certain kinds of) Pride and (certain kinds of) prejudice can sometimes/will/usually keep people (in England) (at that time) apart? I'm overwhelmed!
Shakespeare's plots too are nothing special in that regard. Hamlet: be decisive (in gaining vengeance) (or don't bother with it all). Romeo and Juliet: young lovers can often be/are unrealistic (in their actions) (and beliefs) (and may make many mistakes).
There is nothing particularly revelatory about these stories; and even when a large claim is made by the texts, these texts don't provide evidence/reasoning or an argument (other than argument by assertion/narration). There is nothing in Pride and Prejudice that proves that the scenario concocted must necessarily be so or that it has wider application.
The best thing about Shakespeare is his incredible wit and language use. I've never read anything that came close. "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."
Along those lines, video game writing should worry less about the brilliance of the plot--if Jane Austen and Shakespeare are ultimately trivial, you can easily turn out a "plot" as good--and more about the entertainment value of the writing--is it funny? suspenseful? scary? Are things foreshadowed in a way that will make a second playthrough interesting?
P.S. Although I may have been exceedingly ungenerous towards Shakespeare and Austen's writing--surely there are multiple meanings in their works, some that are lost in reducing them to a blurb--I maintain that no individual theme is truly revolutionary in the way certain lit professors gush that they are.
This is pretty much my entire attitude. Mostly I suffer through crappy stories for gameplay, or I enjoy them on the same cheesy level that I will enjoy, say, mainstream superhero comics or pulpy fantasy novels. But I am optimistic about the growth of storytelling in games. We just need more successful games that focus on narrative or character development.
Though, there are games with horrible, horrible plots.
'The president has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president?'
That's not simply a plot, that's a challenge!
Like Mega Man Legends? Then check out my story, Legends of the Halcyon Era - An Adventure in the World of Mega Man Legends on TMMN and AO3!
Up until now I thought I was the only person who thought this. I couldn't stand FFXII method of storytelling. It was like every single line of dialogue was deliberately tongue twisting and deliberately complicated. That plus the fact that the political intrigue bullshit isn't what I'd describe as fantasy. I really didn't like the 'realistic' twist the story had. Which is frustrating because I believe it has the best gameplay in the series bar none.
I'd hardly call Max Payne ground-breaking social satire on quite the same level that Pride and Prejudice was.
the general consensus with Half-Life is that it's not so much the story as the strength, but how it's delivered. This is fair, and honestly where i think games should be going. Using their unique abilities as an interactive medium to tell you the story, rather than aping cinematic or literary conventions. And this article on gamasutra covers that nicely:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070215/schneider_01.shtml
I, uh, never suggested that. Actually I thought XII's dialogue was the best in the series, at least since VII.
Obligatory props to MGS of course.
Deus Ex, not exactly cinematic, but I love the premise and the style.
...unfortunately, I'm having trouble thinking of other games that do this well.
Edit: Ah, yeah, Metal Gear Solid does it well, too. As dumb as it sounds, things like using the directional mic to listen in on conversations were some of my favorite parts in the game.