I don't think blink stalker is a good build a t my level, too myn mass ling which wrecks that build hard. It just requires so much more skill out of protoss to make it break even, and even then you have to really do damage or you lose.
If by "break even" you mean "trade armies", I traded armies with a zerg last night at your level using this build, and I had completely awful control in a terrible position to fight his army. Of course, you don't want to trade armies with a zerg going mass lings, but like I said--awful unit control on my part and awful positioning.
I discussed this with Dhal a couple pages back if you want to read what he said. I haven't watched the replay yet but he posted one of beating mass lings with this strategy at the top of this page.
I think you are looking for a "quick fix" build to win you games. Why not find a build which is solid and that you enjoy using and get really good at all aspects of it.
I don't want a "quick fix" I want a solid build that doesn't auto lose to some zerg strat unless you have insane MC level control.
I find hallu is a waste now since the obs comes out just slightly later and you save tons of money not getting halu, and chrono.
Well, hallucination is the way to keep tabs on a zerg early and often without having to rush the observer. That way you can just make sure you have an obs for when you push out the first time.
I don't think blink stalker is a good build a t my level, too myn mass ling which wrecks that build hard. It just requires so much more skill out of protoss to make it break even, and even then you have to really do damage or you lose.
If by "break even" you mean "trade armies", I traded armies with a zerg last night at your level using this build, and I had completely awful control in a terrible position to fight his army. Of course, you don't want to trade armies with a zerg going mass lings, but like I said--awful unit control on my part and awful positioning.
I discussed this with Dhal a couple pages back if you want to read what he said. I haven't watched the replay yet but he posted one of beating mass lings with this strategy at the top of this page.
I think you are looking for a "quick fix" build to win you games. Why not find a build which is solid and that you enjoy using and get really good at all aspects of it.
But then how could he post all the balance complaints?
as for scouting roach vs. lings - either hallucinate something out, or run a stalker in to see if there's a roach warren and a fast lair morphing. If there isnt a roach warren, you're not going to see them.
you can also tell by the number of geyser's he's popped. 1 its slings, and maybe a quick lair. 2, its roaches, and you'll prbly be seeing burrow and speed and/or claws on the roaches with +1 attack. More than that watch for infestors, and hive tech - they'll also prbly be going for a quick 3rd/4th.
Someone has to fight the good fight, otherwise the internet would just be full of "lololprotoss" bullshit.
Protoss has to defend very well early game and that depends heavily on their micro, protoss has to harass zerg before late game or the zerg drones too hard and protoss will be behind. Protoss has to defend from harass and build their deathball up so they even have a chance.
The macro protoss is not as easy as people say, maybe once you actually have it its not too bad (although infestors complicate things) but it isn't some auto win strategy like people cry about.
Maybe people aren't using Hallucinate to its full potential. It's zero food, and you can produce four probes for 100 energy. You can use them to temporarily hold xel-nagas, scout for hidden expansions, etc. Doesn't make up for the cost on its own, but if you scout and play reactively it can be made worthwhile.
I was going to say, this sounds like something you need to be figuring out timings (when does their attack come, how early can you scout it "for sure" aka: when do you send in a probe/hallucination/stalker to see what they're doing and when do you NEED to have a cannon/robo down by) and positionings (for buildings/cannon/ AND your army when you engage).
There are just so many zerg attacks, common ones I have seen.
1 base roach all in
1 base ling/bling all in
1 base roach/ling all in
2 base ling all in
2 base ling/bling all in
2 base roach ling
2 base burrow roach
2 base hydra ling
2 base muta ling
Hallucinated Colossi are amazing. Mix them in with real colossi and put them BEHIND your army. They attract enemy air-to-air like otaku's to Jessica Nigri, giving your real colossi free reign over their rines/lings/hydras or other juicy targets.
Byuns interview after todays matches had some hilarious parts.
- You will be facing another terran in the round of 8?
I don’t want to face either of them. One of them is the code A champion, and the other is the Supertournament champion, I don’t want to deal with either of them. I hate terrans.
- Why do you not like facing terrans?
Terran is OP.
- But you are terran?
That is why I switched races.
Lately I've been playing a dedicated sc2 playlist, and only recently I've started spamming boxes during in-game down time.
Both seem to be helping my focus.
i'm going to have to start spamming boxes. are you selecting units, or just random boxes?
As for your music playlist - that's a great "trigger" to get you in the right mindset. I find that certain types of music, repetitive beat, very few vocals as they are distracting and take away focus to try to listen to the words work best for me. Basically minimalist techno is my goto, with goa for when i'm in a ripping mood and more ambient music if I'm chill. It's amazing the emotional/mental effect that different music can have.
When I was playing competitive baseball, I had a crazy OCD routine before each of my pitching starts, down to the specific pair of boxers I was wearing. Basically, you're trying to trigger yourself into "zone" state.
I'm sure that everyone has accidentally slipped into the "zone" during various activities, heck, when I get into programming hardcore, I can go for many hours without moving. Your performance is incredibly better than your baseline when you slip into the zone.
You want to play in the zone as often as you can, and you would prefer if you could get into it by way other than "accident".
You need to build a "trigger" for yourself to execute before the event. It's personal for everyone, but oft-used techniques are excersize, stretching (outright yoga works as well), meditation (it works, dhal), specific music, and specific food/drink. I could imagine Stim building his trigger off of making a pot of tea.
Again, its personal for each of us. Maybe juggling a soccer/football is your trigger, i don't know, but its important to find and build it. Then, its important to use it before you play.
Hallucinated Colossi are amazing. Mix them in with real colossi and put them BEHIND your army. They attract enemy air-to-air like otaku's to Jessica Nigri, giving your real colossi free reign over their rines/lings/hydras or other juicy targets.
Well its not just my APM, its that my fingers get tired after moving fast and then I get inaccurate. Like if I mash 654 for APM spam and then I try to do anything in game my fingers stumble around a lot.
Argh, if only this computer wasn't a piece of shit, after the NASL finals, GSL today and SOTG I want to play so bad, but it struggles to run on the lowest possible settings at 800x600.
Only have to wait another week, but stiiiiiill.
EDIT: I'll probably just play a bunch of Very Easy AI games and work on my macro, which is good I suppose.
Biosys on
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
There are just so many zerg attacks, common ones I have seen.
1 base roach all in
1 base ling/bling all in
1 base roach/ling all in
2 base ling all in
2 base ling/bling all in
2 base roach ling
2 base burrow roach
2 base hydra ling
2 base muta ling
These are all under 10 minutes.
Just stoppin' by to point out that Gateway units hold all of these except the burrow roach and better cannon placement does fine against that :rotate:
If you were Zerg you'd have to know exactly which of these fuckers was coming and do a completely different comp to counter it.
Also, spamming is just going to fuck your hands up more, stretch often and don't strain yourself unnecessarily!
There are just so many zerg attacks, common ones I have seen.
1 base roach all in
1 base ling/bling all in
1 base roach/ling all in
2 base ling all in
2 base ling/bling all in
2 base roach ling
2 base burrow roach
2 base hydra ling
2 base muta ling
These are all under 10 minutes.
Just stoppin' by to point out that Gateway units hold all of these except the burrow roach and better cannon placement does fine against that :rotate:
If you were Zerg you'd have to know exactly which of these fuckers was coming and do a completely different comp to counter it.
Also, spamming is just going to fuck your hands up more, stretch often and don't strain yourself unnecessarily!
Well it depends really, stalkers are worthless against ling/bling, you need zealots and sentries. Roaches you need sentries, cannons and stalkers, burrow roaches you really do need an observer. Also an immortal is pretty much required for the 2 base roach push, or some air. Lots of little responses, other than that though near perfect unit control is required.
Really most of what you're talking about is solved by decent (not "near perfect" or "insane") forcefields. Especially at a sub-master's level where people fail to execute their timings crisply more often than they succeed.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Well it depends really, stalkers are worthless against ling/bling, you need zealots and sentries. Roaches you need sentries, cannons and stalkers, burrow roaches you really do need an observer. Also an immortal is pretty much required for the 2 base roach push, or some air. Lots of little responses, other than that though near perfect unit control is required.
You're wrong, Stalker Sentry will hold everything on that list with good control. Stop saying "near perfect unit control", it doesn't actually mean anything. Neither Immortals nor Void Rays are required against 2 base roach timings. Blink or Cannons or solid forcefields or DTs will manage them as well. If you're on the defensive, stalkers are great against ling bling. I don't know where you come up with this shit
If he's willing, I'll get Dhal to play some games with me later and he can show you.
Yeah well basically every attack protoss can do is held by good macro and scouting.
I wouldn't have a problem with your arguments if they had any substance whatsoever. Any attack by any race at any time in any game can be held with good macro and scouting. That's why Starcraft kicks ass
The thing I hate most about broodlords, are the broodlings. Makes a sort of makeshift forcefield.
*shakes fist*
But I mean, if you let a zerg tech that far, and amass that kind of army, it's pretty much the terran's fault. It's not all that hard to keep up pressure.
If I get to Bro's, and 3/3 cracklings... well, you did something wrong and deserve to have you your entire base eaten.
I really don't like that attitude or approach, but I also don't think it's accurate so it's okay
if you get broodlords and cracklings and I have no answer for them yes I've done something wrong.
having a game go 20-25 minutes or whatever shouldn't mean I've failed just because you're zerg and know how to tech/upgrade.
I agree that if it were true it'd be a serious problem. No race should be able to hit a unit composition and just auto win because they got there. I don't think brood/infestor is that way, but if enough evidence was found to show it to be the case I'd definitely support balance changes to change it.
So I want to take on multiple lower-level players than myself, at a time.
Not to show off or anything, but I've done it a couple of times with PA folk and it was fun as hell (I lost, too!).
A very different metagame indeed.
Tonight, bronzies / silveries / platinum...ies... combine your powers and come at me!
maybe it can be an event thingie ^_^
like
one of our top-tier players can be the dungeon boss
and the low league guys need to form a rading party
I can sell the tickets!
I would do this.
Now, granted, I haven't played a single ladder game this season (yeah...I don't know), but I was bronze last season. And I'm still bad!
Graviija on
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
edited July 2011
Forgive Joe, he's obsessed with Zerglings for some reason
2/0 Tanks and 3/3 Marines kill 3/3 Cracklings just fine and Vikings/Ghosts do well against Broodlords. My goal in ZvT is to do enough damage to ensure you can't afford the ghost/viking switch. I guess as Terran your objective is to get three bases and the infrastructure to support the switch.
If you outmicro the zerg, I see no reason that Ghost Marine Tank can't kill anything that comes at you. Vikings are cool, but if you accidentally clump them in a fungal once, GG, ghosts seem safer and more versatile
I really don't like that attitude or approach, but I also don't think it's accurate so it's okay
if you get broodlords and cracklings and I have no answer for them yes I've done something wrong.
having a game go 20-25 minutes or whatever shouldn't mean I've failed just because you're zerg and know how to tech/upgrade.
Yeh, I should back off that statement a little.
The thing is, I don't know what the counter is to bros/cracklings/corrupters for any race, if the Z has a proper economy and enough larvae. I think that it really is "don't let them get 4 or more mining bases and a greater spire up". The pure number of units that are attacking are a huge problem, even with AOE effects. You can't go air because corrs will be constantly pumping to replace bros, and they're hatching 50 or so cracklings at a time, plus the broodlings that are constantly being pumped. It's fun when you have the econ and hatches to do it, kindof like a nice guillotine in bjj.
The problem isn't the guillotine, its how you ended up there.
These are all under 10 minutes and widely different responses.
Ppppppppphhhhhhhtttttt...bwahahahahaha....
Seriously, Fizzles, go watch Day [9]'s "pinning your opponent on a build" daily/ies (I think he's done more than one) and/or his dailies on refining your strategy/build.
These are the only steps:
1) Figure out your build/strategy and work on smoothing it out like a well oiled machine. (this is a whole process in of itself)
2) Notice what kills your well oiled machine no matter how hard you try (I thought this is where you were until you listed literally everything Zergs can do...you should never be worried about EVERY build your opponent can do).
3) Make as small of an adjustment as possible to deal with opponents who do the build that you have trouble with. This can mean finding a time to scout the build you're worried about and then reacting if you see that strategy incoming, better building placement, an added unit/building/tech or even better army placement/unit control. The key is that you change as little as you can possibly get away with.
4) Go back to one: Smooth out your build with the newly added change/scout/ect and repeat (until you decide you want to create a new strategy)
Soooo... it's all good to crowd source for ideas when you're at the "this is what kills my strategy every time" stage, but you're not at that stage unless you can cross off most of that list as "things I am not worried about with my build"...
Posts
I don't want a "quick fix" I want a solid build that doesn't auto lose to some zerg strat unless you have insane MC level control.
I find hallu is a waste now since the obs comes out just slightly later and you save tons of money not getting halu, and chrono.
But then how could he post all the balance complaints?
as for scouting roach vs. lings - either hallucinate something out, or run a stalker in to see if there's a roach warren and a fast lair morphing. If there isnt a roach warren, you're not going to see them.
you can also tell by the number of geyser's he's popped. 1 its slings, and maybe a quick lair. 2, its roaches, and you'll prbly be seeing burrow and speed and/or claws on the roaches with +1 attack. More than that watch for infestors, and hive tech - they'll also prbly be going for a quick 3rd/4th.
Joe's Stream.
Protoss has to defend very well early game and that depends heavily on their micro, protoss has to harass zerg before late game or the zerg drones too hard and protoss will be behind. Protoss has to defend from harass and build their deathball up so they even have a chance.
The macro protoss is not as easy as people say, maybe once you actually have it its not too bad (although infestors complicate things) but it isn't some auto win strategy like people cry about.
This is the part of the game where you have to improve on crafting stars rather than just monotonously following some standard build order.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
1 base roach all in
1 base ling/bling all in
1 base roach/ling all in
2 base ling all in
2 base ling/bling all in
2 base roach ling
2 base burrow roach
2 base hydra ling
2 base muta ling
These are all under 10 minutes.
Dude knows what's up.
i'm going to have to start spamming boxes. are you selecting units, or just random boxes?
As for your music playlist - that's a great "trigger" to get you in the right mindset. I find that certain types of music, repetitive beat, very few vocals as they are distracting and take away focus to try to listen to the words work best for me. Basically minimalist techno is my goto, with goa for when i'm in a ripping mood and more ambient music if I'm chill. It's amazing the emotional/mental effect that different music can have.
When I was playing competitive baseball, I had a crazy OCD routine before each of my pitching starts, down to the specific pair of boxers I was wearing. Basically, you're trying to trigger yourself into "zone" state.
I'm sure that everyone has accidentally slipped into the "zone" during various activities, heck, when I get into programming hardcore, I can go for many hours without moving. Your performance is incredibly better than your baseline when you slip into the zone.
You want to play in the zone as often as you can, and you would prefer if you could get into it by way other than "accident".
You need to build a "trigger" for yourself to execute before the event. It's personal for everyone, but oft-used techniques are excersize, stretching (outright yoga works as well), meditation (it works, dhal), specific music, and specific food/drink. I could imagine Stim building his trigger off of making a pot of tea.
Again, its personal for each of us. Maybe juggling a soccer/football is your trigger, i don't know, but its important to find and build it. Then, its important to use it before you play.
Joe's Stream.
I hate you so much right now...
hate
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Don't hate your hands. Axlav plays with like 100apm.
If it impacts your play that much, probably not worth it just for the APM number.
EDIT: Fair enough then, maybe stretching your hands or something before playing?
Only have to wait another week, but stiiiiiill.
EDIT: I'll probably just play a bunch of Very Easy AI games and work on my macro, which is good I suppose.
Just stoppin' by to point out that Gateway units hold all of these except the burrow roach and better cannon placement does fine against that :rotate:
If you were Zerg you'd have to know exactly which of these fuckers was coming and do a completely different comp to counter it.
Also, spamming is just going to fuck your hands up more, stretch often and don't strain yourself unnecessarily!
Really most of what you're talking about is solved by decent (not "near perfect" or "insane") forcefields. Especially at a sub-master's level where people fail to execute their timings crisply more often than they succeed.
You're wrong, Stalker Sentry will hold everything on that list with good control. Stop saying "near perfect unit control", it doesn't actually mean anything. Neither Immortals nor Void Rays are required against 2 base roach timings. Blink or Cannons or solid forcefields or DTs will manage them as well. If you're on the defensive, stalkers are great against ling bling. I don't know where you come up with this shit
If he's willing, I'll get Dhal to play some games with me later and he can show you.
I wouldn't have a problem with your arguments if they had any substance whatsoever. Any attack by any race at any time in any game can be held with good macro and scouting. That's why Starcraft kicks ass
This says nothing. You could have just said every attack can be held by playing better than your opponent.
Not to show off or anything, but I've done it a couple of times with PA folk and it was fun as hell (I lost, too!).
A very different metagame indeed.
Tonight, bronzies / silveries / platinum...ies... combine your powers and come at me!
maybe it can be an event thingie ^_^
like
one of our top-tier players can be the dungeon boss
and the low league guys need to form a rading party
I can sell the tickets!
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
If I get to Bro's, and 3/3 cracklings... well, you did something wrong and deserve to have you your entire base eaten.
Joe's Stream.
if you get broodlords and cracklings and I have no answer for them yes I've done something wrong.
having a game go 20-25 minutes or whatever shouldn't mean I've failed just because you're zerg and know how to tech/upgrade.
Can I be one of the underlings that you're going to stomp?
Joe's Stream.
I agree that if it were true it'd be a serious problem. No race should be able to hit a unit composition and just auto win because they got there. I don't think brood/infestor is that way, but if enough evidence was found to show it to be the case I'd definitely support balance changes to change it.
Now, granted, I haven't played a single ladder game this season (yeah...I don't know), but I was bronze last season. And I'm still bad!
2/0 Tanks and 3/3 Marines kill 3/3 Cracklings just fine and Vikings/Ghosts do well against Broodlords. My goal in ZvT is to do enough damage to ensure you can't afford the ghost/viking switch. I guess as Terran your objective is to get three bases and the infrastructure to support the switch.
If you outmicro the zerg, I see no reason that Ghost Marine Tank can't kill anything that comes at you. Vikings are cool, but if you accidentally clump them in a fungal once, GG, ghosts seem safer and more versatile
Yeh, I should back off that statement a little.
The thing is, I don't know what the counter is to bros/cracklings/corrupters for any race, if the Z has a proper economy and enough larvae. I think that it really is "don't let them get 4 or more mining bases and a greater spire up". The pure number of units that are attacking are a huge problem, even with AOE effects. You can't go air because corrs will be constantly pumping to replace bros, and they're hatching 50 or so cracklings at a time, plus the broodlings that are constantly being pumped. It's fun when you have the econ and hatches to do it, kindof like a nice guillotine in bjj.
The problem isn't the guillotine, its how you ended up there.
Joe's Stream.
Ppppppppphhhhhhhtttttt...bwahahahahaha....
Seriously, Fizzles, go watch Day [9]'s "pinning your opponent on a build" daily/ies (I think he's done more than one) and/or his dailies on refining your strategy/build.
These are the only steps:
1) Figure out your build/strategy and work on smoothing it out like a well oiled machine. (this is a whole process in of itself)
2) Notice what kills your well oiled machine no matter how hard you try (I thought this is where you were until you listed literally everything Zergs can do...you should never be worried about EVERY build your opponent can do).
3) Make as small of an adjustment as possible to deal with opponents who do the build that you have trouble with. This can mean finding a time to scout the build you're worried about and then reacting if you see that strategy incoming, better building placement, an added unit/building/tech or even better army placement/unit control. The key is that you change as little as you can possibly get away with.
4) Go back to one: Smooth out your build with the newly added change/scout/ect and repeat (until you decide you want to create a new strategy)
Soooo... it's all good to crowd source for ideas when you're at the "this is what kills my strategy every time" stage, but you're not at that stage unless you can cross off most of that list as "things I am not worried about with my build"...