Otherwise, I can't really figure what's wrong with my Mages. Between Annie, Malzahar, and Anivia, I can't really seem to straight up "Carry" my team. I mostly play Malzahar. Unless I'm up against Annie, Yorick, and a couple other choice champions, I can straight up dominate my lane as I please. Of the 80 champs, I can force 75% of them to take an early b, complete wreck the lane, score 200cs by 20 minutes, and take the mid tower, often the 1st tower to fall nowadays.
However. Once laning ends, my game completely disappears. When a game ends in a victory, the combined total of my kills and assists is often only 40% of the total team kills, which is really low. I feel like I'm constantly having to b due to low health, and abandoning a team fight as a result, or am in the wrong place because I'm always headed back into the field from b, and missing the fight in the first place. It's not even like I have a low KDR. I'll go like 7/3/5, but my team will go 0/4/25 (Sona), 2/8/15 (Leona), 15/3/11 (Caitlyn), etc etc. So at the end of the game, I know I did something useful, because I completely shut down the enemy mid. But at the same time, I was a negligible contribution to team fights, which is depressing/infuriating.
I think a lot of it has to do with something Reginald was talking about, a symptom of "Playing above your ELO." Basically, I play well, but because I'm teamed with the usual shitlords, I don't make the same aggressive, ridiculous tower dives they make. Against a good team, those tower dives would result in the usual tears. But because we're playing with/against shitlords, the aggressive dives somehow manage to work, and we win. So the reason I did well was because I won the mid-laning game 1v1 in a conservative environment, but am not willing to make the super ballsy dives Sivir will make in order to go 23/1/15.
I don't know what to do as a result. If I don't make those dives, then it can result in a loss. If I do make those dives, one of these days I *will* run into a good team that completely punishes me for my dickery.
Carrying as a burst caster in solo queue isn't about just gaining mad farm off a lane. There are characters who can win the game purely by getting farmed, especially if you're playing at an ELO where players regularly get tons of kills off of their lanes. You can't count on being the only one who's fed, and you can't win a teamfight on your own with Malzahar because he's pretty weak once all of his shit has been blown.
The key to winning solo queue games on a champ like Malz is to make sure that you're constantly using your burst to put your team further ahead. The successful Malz players I've seen don't just win their lane, they push and immediately go gank the jungle or another lane. If you're constantly forcing kills in other lanes or on their jungle through your ultimate, you're going to dramatically increase the chances of your teammates winning their lanes. If you're Annie/Malz with an ult up you have to constantly be thinking about the most valuable place to use it, and oftentimes that won't be on your 0/4 laning opponent who gives 100 gold and almost no XP. That's the kind of aggressive play that wins games at most ELOs - not ridiculous flashy tower dives, but constant aggressive decisions that surprise the enemy team and break their morale.
Playing Cassiopeia against laning Udyr was great. People on the other team still yelled at him for having the audacity to lose a lane to Cassiopeia which is a thing that should never happen though : (
Well, that was unpleasant. My team decided that Sivir should lane with me (Yorick) which is about as bad of an idea as you get. Sivir proceeded to play rambo style, got killed at like LV2 or LV3 and then spent the entire game insulting and swearing at me because she kept dying and I "wasn't tanking" for her. You know, ignoring the fact that most Yorick's go for mana items in the early game and so aren't even remotely like tanks until later on.
Well, that was unpleasant. My team decided that Sivir should lane with me (Yorick) which is about as bad of an idea as you get. Sivir proceeded to play rambo style, got killed at like LV2 or LV3 and then spent the entire game insulting and swearing at me because she kept dying and I "wasn't tanking" for her. You know, ignoring the fact that most Yorick's go for mana items in the early game and so aren't even remotely like tanks until later on.
Well, that was unpleasant. My team decided that Sivir should lane with me (Yorick) which is about as bad of an idea as you get. Sivir proceeded to play rambo style, got killed at like LV2 or LV3 and then spent the entire game insulting and swearing at me because she kept dying and I "wasn't tanking" for her. You know, ignoring the fact that most Yorick's go for mana items in the early game and so aren't even remotely like tanks until later on.
I had that happen with a Yi, but I was playing Galio, who isn't very "tankish" early either. He kept going hyper aggressive to kill a xin player, who would just turn around and kill him every time we tried. But at least in that game he didn't go batshit and start cussing me out for not tanking properly, so that was nice.
What's so bad about getting a Wriggles on a laneing ad champ? It's super cost efficient, gives armor/damage/lifesteal, and the infinite wards to protect you from any ganks.
I always cry as lane Udyr. I run in to last hit with turtle and end up losing 20% of my health and mana for a couple kills. I do better with some support babysitting, but it feels terrible.
I have way more fun in the jungle.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
It really isn't. He is, as of this posting, one of the best Top Solo characters in the game.
I didn't say non-viable, just heretical. Though FWIW, I don't think I've seen one win yet. And Lanewick is like 1/4 as well in my experience.
Yeah I'm going to side win Zen on this one. You've played with/against bad lane Udyrs. A good one is basically in Don't Give A Fuck mode 24/7.
Being good doesn't stop you from getting killed by our tryhard AP TF mid / jungle Udyr / whoever was 1v1ing vs. Lanedyr top. His Wriggle's / max Turtle doesn't do shit when he is chain stunned. Doubly so since jungle udyr has red buff half the time, and slows are a bitch for Udyr. Even flash generally doesn't save him.
It really isn't. He is, as of this posting, one of the best Top Solo characters in the game.
I didn't say non-viable, just heretical. Though FWIW, I don't think I've seen one win yet. And Lanewick is like 1/4 as well in my experience.
Ashe is amazing vs. Udyr, and Vlad vs. either.
I prefer him in the jungle myself.
From what I hear, if you max turtle stance first, you can just spam it forever while Ashe goes all out on you and never drop below 80% health. That is why people are saying its overpowered.
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
It really isn't. He is, as of this posting, one of the best Top Solo characters in the game.
I didn't say non-viable, just heretical. Though FWIW, I don't think I've seen one win yet. And Lanewick is like 1/4 as well in my experience.
Yeah I'm going to side win Zen on this one. You've played with/against bad lane Udyrs. A good one is basically in Don't Give A Fuck mode 24/7.
Being good doesn't stop you from getting killed by our tryhard AP TF mid / jungle Udyr / whoever was 1v1ing vs. Lanedyr top. His Wriggle's / max Turtle doesn't do shit when he is chain stunned. Doubly so since jungle udyr has red buff half the time, and slows are a bitch for Udyr. Even flash generally doesn't save him.
You're talking about a 3v1 Get Fucked fest. In a 1v1 Top Solo vacuum, Udyr is a strong contender for King Of The "Give No Fucks" Ring.
It really isn't. He is, as of this posting, one of the best Top Solo characters in the game.
I didn't say non-viable, just heretical. Though FWIW, I don't think I've seen one win yet. And Lanewick is like 1/4 as well in my experience.
Yeah I'm going to side win Zen on this one. You've played with/against bad lane Udyrs. A good one is basically in Don't Give A Fuck mode 24/7.
Being good doesn't stop you from getting killed by our tryhard AP TF mid / jungle Udyr / whoever was 1v1ing vs. Lanedyr top. His Wriggle's / max Turtle doesn't do shit when he is chain stunned. Doubly so since jungle udyr has red buff half the time, and slows are a bitch for Udyr. Even flash generally doesn't save him.
Yeah, it does. Wriggle's saves you from ganks. Being full health from turtle/wriggle's saves you from TF ults+double stun. Having maxed a tanking damage shield first also protects you from ganks. Udyr is safe because his usual item build keeps him at full health with constant wards in his lane.
It's the same reason that philstone Irelia or Cho'gath is safe top. You don't spend 10x the effort to gank a full health champion when you could be ganking anywhere else on the map.
Solo top Udyr is okay. His biggest problem is that he's not really going to stop his opponent from farming and he doesn't scale amazingly well from farm himself. It doesn't matter if Ashe can't push him out of the lane if she still gets 200 cs (not that you'd ever send Ashe top.)
Top lane usually gets the most farm out of all the lanes, so you usually want either someone who scales well with farm or someone who can shut down the opponent's farm. Udyr doesn't really do either.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Udyr scales pretty much as well as Irelia does with farm if you build him right, albeit without being quite as good at pushing somebody out of their lane.
What's so bad about getting a Wriggles on a laneing ad champ? It's super cost efficient, gives armor/damage/lifesteal, and the infinite wards to protect you from any ganks.
it's not that wriggles is required. it's that you need to farm up 1600 gold before lane udyr is threatening. he can definitely go down or be shut out before getting the wriggles
udyr does scale very well with gear. tiger has a huge AD ratio, and turtle shield is factored in after defensive stats. a well farmed udyr is so hard to kill
Well the only two positions that I would say I cant cover in a ranked team is a jungler if fiddle is taken and support. Which means I should get off my ass and practice my Trundle like ive been telling myself forever cause fuck support I am not going to be some mouthbreathers bitch for 30-40 minutes at a time.
Solo top Udyr is okay. His biggest problem is that he's not really going to stop his opponent from farming and he doesn't scale amazingly well from farm himself. It doesn't matter if Ashe can't push him out of the lane if she still gets 200 cs (not that you'd ever send Ashe top.)
Top lane usually gets the most farm out of all the lanes, so you usually want either someone who scales well with farm or someone who can shut down the opponent's farm. Udyr doesn't really do either.
Udyr can completely shut down a tanky DPS up top though, like Irelia or Jarvan. Whenever they come up to last hit, Udyr smacks them with a Tiger/Bear combo, hits turtle and they can't do anything back to him.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yorick is getting his mana costs nerfed next patch. Bet you they go overboard !
Orianna it is.
Don't really want to deal with the Rollercoaster that is Yorick at the moment.
If he gets buffed in his lategame he will be fine , but its riot so who the fuck knows what they are thinking?
The problem with Yorick isn't that his costs are too low, it's that Manamune is too good. Manamune trivializes mana costs for pretty much every AD champ it's plugged into. It's not a problem limited to the Gravedigger.
Assuming they're going to up his base mana per level, make his skills increase in cost per rank, and adjust scaling on him so he can compensate for the hit to his (admittedly strong) early game with a boost to his late game. I think he'd be about perfect, then.
I go full AD quints and marks with offense masteries. I get either boots or a long sword and take Tiger Stance at level 1 in the fountain. I cast it, and then protect the jungler. Then I run up to top lane as minions spawn and see if I can catch the enemy champion running to the top lane.
The magic damage on Tiger stance lasts indefinitely if you stay in that stance, so when I see the enemy champion in the top lane I immediately run up to him/her and hit him, exhaust if they are halfway across the lane and then tiger stance again. Tiger stance is roughly 160 magic damage at rank 1. With two autoattacks on top of that you will usually send someone back to base immediately or first blood them.
I love how much of this thread is "[ANECDOTAL OPINION]" followed by "[YOUR ANECDOTAL OPINION IS INVALID DUE TO MY ANECDOTAL OPINION]".
With that said, I prefer Jungle Udyr.
I've never said that it wasn't good, just that my extensive experience proves you can consistently beat lane udyr by ganking often with jungle udyr.
As a disclaimer, a lane udyr team did beat us today, but that's because our AD carry went 1/7 in the 2v2 bot lane. So 1 point for lane udyr I guess?
Edit: And before anyone says "Well that applies to anyone," I find it easier to shut him down than, say, Irelia up top with proper gank support, and Udyr tends to death spiral pretty nicely if he has a bad early/mid game.
That, and as I've said in the past, AP is OP in long games, so if Udyr and Malz trade farming up top, just delay the game till 30+ and win.
programjunkie on
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I love how much of this thread is "[ANECDOTAL OPINION]" followed by "[YOUR ANECDOTAL OPINION IS INVALID DUE TO MY ANECDOTAL OPINION]".
With that said, I prefer Jungle Udyr.
I've never said that it wasn't good, just that my extensive experience proves you can consistently beat lane udyr by ganking often with jungle udyr.
As a disclaimer, a lane udyr team did beat us today, but that's because our AD carry went 1/7 in the 2v2 bot lane. So 1 point for lane udyr I guess?
Given the scenario you described earlier, you can beat ANY character with that set-up. I'm sure even the slipperiest of the slippery would have trouble dealing with that kind bullshit.
I love how much of this thread is "[ANECDOTAL OPINION]" followed by "[YOUR ANECDOTAL OPINION IS INVALID DUE TO MY ANECDOTAL OPINION]".
With that said, I prefer Jungle Udyr.
I've never said that it wasn't good, just that my extensive experience proves you can consistently beat lane udyr by ganking often with jungle udyr.
As a disclaimer, a lane udyr team did beat us today, but that's because our AD carry went 1/7 in the 2v2 bot lane. So 1 point for lane udyr I guess?
Given the scenario you described earlier, you can beat ANY character with that set-up. I'm sure even the slipperiest of the slippery would have trouble dealing with that kind bullshit.
That's true to a point, but I've found that it is as or more successful against Lane Udyr than Irelia (free merc treads passive) or Akali without the benefit of true sight.
Again, not trying to say he isn't good, but I've found the tone take about him to be a bit on the hysterical side. He's good, but I've consistently countered him and lanewick over and over and over again.
Posts
Carrying as a burst caster in solo queue isn't about just gaining mad farm off a lane. There are characters who can win the game purely by getting farmed, especially if you're playing at an ELO where players regularly get tons of kills off of their lanes. You can't count on being the only one who's fed, and you can't win a teamfight on your own with Malzahar because he's pretty weak once all of his shit has been blown.
The key to winning solo queue games on a champ like Malz is to make sure that you're constantly using your burst to put your team further ahead. The successful Malz players I've seen don't just win their lane, they push and immediately go gank the jungle or another lane. If you're constantly forcing kills in other lanes or on their jungle through your ultimate, you're going to dramatically increase the chances of your teammates winning their lanes. If you're Annie/Malz with an ult up you have to constantly be thinking about the most valuable place to use it, and oftentimes that won't be on your 0/4 laning opponent who gives 100 gold and almost no XP. That's the kind of aggressive play that wins games at most ELOs - not ridiculous flashy tower dives, but constant aggressive decisions that surprise the enemy team and break their morale.
Agreed. Lane Udyr is a fucking thing of terror. Unless you send a Tank to deal with him, he will punch every champion in the dick.
However he is crushed horribly by some characters who can kit him to death
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I didn't say non-viable, just heretical. Though FWIW, I don't think I've seen one win yet. And Lanewick is like 1/4 as well in my experience.
Ashe is amazing vs. Udyr, and Vlad vs. either.
I prefer him in the jungle myself.
Thank you Squidget!
Boom, problem solved.
I had that happen with a Yi, but I was playing Galio, who isn't very "tankish" early either. He kept going hyper aggressive to kill a xin player, who would just turn around and kill him every time we tried. But at least in that game he didn't go batshit and start cussing me out for not tanking properly, so that was nice.
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I have way more fun in the jungle.
Being good doesn't stop you from getting killed by our tryhard AP TF mid / jungle Udyr / whoever was 1v1ing vs. Lanedyr top. His Wriggle's / max Turtle doesn't do shit when he is chain stunned. Doubly so since jungle udyr has red buff half the time, and slows are a bitch for Udyr. Even flash generally doesn't save him.
From what I hear, if you max turtle stance first, you can just spam it forever while Ashe goes all out on you and never drop below 80% health. That is why people are saying its overpowered.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah, it does. Wriggle's saves you from ganks. Being full health from turtle/wriggle's saves you from TF ults+double stun. Having maxed a tanking damage shield first also protects you from ganks. Udyr is safe because his usual item build keeps him at full health with constant wards in his lane.
It's the same reason that philstone Irelia or Cho'gath is safe top. You don't spend 10x the effort to gank a full health champion when you could be ganking anywhere else on the map.
Top lane usually gets the most farm out of all the lanes, so you usually want either someone who scales well with farm or someone who can shut down the opponent's farm. Udyr doesn't really do either.
With that said, I prefer Jungle Udyr.
it's not that wriggles is required. it's that you need to farm up 1600 gold before lane udyr is threatening. he can definitely go down or be shut out before getting the wriggles
udyr does scale very well with gear. tiger has a huge AD ratio, and turtle shield is factored in after defensive stats. a well farmed udyr is so hard to kill
This thread is always full of silliness.
Udyr can completely shut down a tanky DPS up top though, like Irelia or Jarvan. Whenever they come up to last hit, Udyr smacks them with a Tiger/Bear combo, hits turtle and they can't do anything back to him.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
The problem with Yorick isn't that his costs are too low, it's that Manamune is too good. Manamune trivializes mana costs for pretty much every AD champ it's plugged into. It's not a problem limited to the Gravedigger.
Assuming they're going to up his base mana per level, make his skills increase in cost per rank, and adjust scaling on him so he can compensate for the hit to his (admittedly strong) early game with a boost to his late game. I think he'd be about perfect, then.
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I go full AD quints and marks with offense masteries. I get either boots or a long sword and take Tiger Stance at level 1 in the fountain. I cast it, and then protect the jungler. Then I run up to top lane as minions spawn and see if I can catch the enemy champion running to the top lane.
The magic damage on Tiger stance lasts indefinitely if you stay in that stance, so when I see the enemy champion in the top lane I immediately run up to him/her and hit him, exhaust if they are halfway across the lane and then tiger stance again. Tiger stance is roughly 160 magic damage at rank 1. With two autoattacks on top of that you will usually send someone back to base immediately or first blood them.
I've never said that it wasn't good, just that my extensive experience proves you can consistently beat lane udyr by ganking often with jungle udyr.
As a disclaimer, a lane udyr team did beat us today, but that's because our AD carry went 1/7 in the 2v2 bot lane. So 1 point for lane udyr I guess?
Edit: And before anyone says "Well that applies to anyone," I find it easier to shut him down than, say, Irelia up top with proper gank support, and Udyr tends to death spiral pretty nicely if he has a bad early/mid game.
That, and as I've said in the past, AP is OP in long games, so if Udyr and Malz trade farming up top, just delay the game till 30+ and win.
Plus karth on karth harass is hilarious.
urgot
yorick
maybe ezreal
I don't think manamune is too good in this situation.
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And anyone that says they could have named Yorick something else is wrong.
Next Champion:
Q
Taking all bets: Overpowered, or merely omnipotent?
I guess thats it though
edit: manamune, that is
Danger, Will Robinson. Danger.
That's true to a point, but I've found that it is as or more successful against Lane Udyr than Irelia (free merc treads passive) or Akali without the benefit of true sight.
Again, not trying to say he isn't good, but I've found the tone take about him to be a bit on the hysterical side. He's good, but I've consistently countered him and lanewick over and over and over again.