Buffy/Angel watching order advice

RyanRedd

A friend of mine has been wanting me to watch Buffy and Angel for a while so I'm going to watch all of them except for the finales and then surprise him so we can watch together. Bro love.

So far I'm 3 episodes into Buffy and want to know the best order to watch Angel in, alongside Buffy or not? etc. Any advice is welcome, thanks.

Kagera

Basically just watch Angel starting off after Season 3 of Buffy. You could alternate episodes like you were watching them as they were originally released but this gets less and less necessary the further along you go. But the main thing I would say is watch the finale of BtVS before starting season 5 of Angel since that whole season runs after Buffy ended.

Mojo_Jojo

It's quite complicated. I wouldn't worry though, it's a fairly minor overlap.

Antithesis

You should watch seasons 1-3 of Buffy first. From there, you should watch Buffy season 4 with Angel season 1, Buffy 5 with Angel 2, Buffy 6 with Angel 3, Buffy 7 with Angel 4, and finally watch Angel season 5.

Once you start watching both at once, you should watch a Buffy episode first, and then an Angel episode, and so on. (Buffy 4.1, Angel 1.1, Buffy 4.2, Angel 1.2, etc...) Both shows aired the same night, but Angel was on later.

Dehumanized

I'm going through both series for the first time myself, and personally I'm finding it works better in the era of Netflix marathons to just alternate the seasons instead of by episode. So starting with season 4, watch the BtVS season through to the last episode, then move onto Angel S1, then Buffy S5, etc. It'll be fresh enough in your mind that the few crossovers still make sense.

Also, if you start to get bored in S1, skip ahead to "Angel" (S1E7) and then "Prophecy Girl" (S1E12). Most of the rest of the season is pretty unnecessary for long-term enjoyment of the series aside from a couple minor events that get referenced occasionally in dialog, and the quality of the show increases dramatically in the second season.

RyanRedd

Thanks! This is great. I realized I misspoke in my original post, I've seen 3 SEASONS of Buffy and am now watching the 4th.

Mojo_Jojo

Yes, Angel is atrocious in the early days but stick with it.

shryke

Mojo_Jojo wrote:

Yes, Angel is atrocious in the early days but stick with it.

This man speaks lies.

Anyway, you don't really need to alternate episodes except in a few spots. Basically, there's a few crossoverish episodes in Buffy S4/Angel S1 and Buffy S7/Angel S4 and that's it. 2 in each if my memory serves me correctly.

Other then that, you can get away with watching Buffy S5 and then Angel S2 and so on just fine.

enlightenedbum

Frankly, I think Buffy is atrocious after season 3 (where it is so, so good; the Mayor is the best TV villain ever), with certain exceptions (Hush, The Body for example). It's a cold, miserable universe that poor girl inhabits, and she is an unbelievable bitch by the end of the series.

shryke

enlightenedbum wrote:

Frankly, I think Buffy is atrocious after season 3 (where it is so, so good; the Mayor is the best TV villain ever), with certain exceptions (Hush, The Body for example). It's a cold, miserable universe that poor girl inhabits, and she is an unbelievable bitch by the end of the series.

She really does become more and more unlikable imo. And the series loses ... something. It never does click quite as well after they leave High School. It's still mostly good, but never as good as it was. I've always said the quality material seemed to follow David Boreanaz around for some inexplicable reason. (Who, btw, was such a terrible actor at the start of the series. My god.)

enlightenedbum

I think it was more the quality material was from Joss, who was focusing on Angel after it existed and not Buffy. And Marti Noxon looooooved her some Spike. Who sucks when he's not an evil, sarcastic, impatient jackass.

nightmarenny

I have trouble understanding that sentiment(re: Buffy being a bitch), maybe I'm just good at ignoring character flaws but I never stopped at least feeling sympathy for Buffy. In season 7 I knew she was being a bitch so I really wanted her to get her head out of her ass. Which I feel she did. Also I found Spikes turn(from scary big bad, to pathetic dog, to Rapist, to snarky but good asshole) to be the most consistently interesting part of the series. When Willow was in the middle of that eye-rolling "magic is a drug!" story it was spike that kept me coming back.

Element Brian

I always get sad when I think of Angel and Andy Hallet

apricotmuffins

Buffy season 6 was SO depressing for me. 7 was ok because it was building up to the end and it was depressing with purpose, 6 was just... bleak.

I watched all of buffy and now im watching all of angel, I wish i'd interweaved the buffy/angel episodes as they happened but its not hugely necessary. do it by season for convenience, i'd say.

Element Brian wrote:

I always get sad when I think of Angel and Andy Hallet

oh shit, i just googled. Both the actors for Doyle and Lorne died after filming Angel, that sucks so much.

OptimusZed

apricotmuffins wrote:

Element Brian wrote:

I always get sad when I think of Angel and Andy Hallet

oh shit, i just googled. Both the actors for Doyle and Lorne died after filming Angel, that sucks so much.

Yeah, that show was hell on sarcastic sidekicks. Two of the most enjoyable characters died in real life, and Connor lives on.

Mim

enlightenedbum wrote:

I think it was more the quality material was from Joss, who was focusing on Angel after it existed and not Buffy. And Marti Noxon looooooved her some Spike. Who sucks when he's not an evil, sarcastic, impatient jackass.

Actually, I don't think Joss was working that much on Angel? He doesn't like the character and stated that he couldn't really write for him so David Greenwalt did a lot more of the writing. I think by the end of both Angel and Buffy he was off doing Firefly.

Re: Buffy being a bitch. Well how else would you act given the circumstances? I don't think there is a proper way to act after

Your boyfriend leaves you because you're not open enough (Riley), your mom dies, your sister is a whiny ass who while having her own friends and runs off with them every time Buffy tries to hang out with her, bitches every time Buffy doesn't spend time with her. Her best friend brings her back from the dead and everyone is expecting her to be right as rain and THANKFUL even though she had to claw her way out of her own fucking casket. She tells them she was in heaven but that does nothing to quell their need for Buffy to be "right" again. She starts an abusive relationship with a vampire because it's the only time she can feel anything but abject misery and then in season 7, all these stupid pre-slayers come and go "Lead us Buffy, Protect us! But don't expect us to do anything!" Then gets kicked out of her house by her sister, friends and pre-slayers who are shocked when lo and behold bad shit continues to happen to them even though Buffy is gone. So then they bring her back, but are still impossibly whiny.

I would've set everything on fire and said "Peace, assholes!"

Also, don't click that spoiler unless you want major spoilers. :X

Skoal Cat

Yea, I thought Buffy's character arc was pretty understandable.

I wouldn't worry about alternating episodes, and there really isn't much of a need to alternate seasons. Within the last 12 months I did all of Buffy and then all of Angel for the first time (yay Netflix), binging on the series before watching anything else, and never felt like there was enough of an overlap to make watching the "correct order" important. There is fairly little overlap and when it exists, you know, and it doesn't ruin anything.

Now the trick to all of this is to then read the Buffy and Angel comic books.

OptimusZed

The overlap is most noticeable on repeated viewings when you start picking up on little details. There isn't a huge amount of plot crossover outside of a few things that happen fairly quickly and aren't referenced again.

Buffy got hard because she had to be hard. She was the central figure in an existential struggle that allowed one character to joke about the plural of apocalypse in the last season. Buffy had to be tough so that everyone else could survive. You see the same transformation in most of the other characters, just not to the same extent. These people are effectively their universe's Justice League, except most of them don't have super powers. That's a damn hard life, and it has to wear on you.

Mim

Skoal Cat wrote:

Now the trick to all of this is to then read the Buffy and Angel comic books.

I have so many problems with the comics, it's ridiculous.

Magic Pink

Mim wrote:

Skoal Cat wrote:

Now the trick to all of this is to then read the Buffy and Angel comic books.

I have so many problems with the comics, it's ridiculous.

Agreed; they start out ok (well, the Buffy one does) and quickly turn absolutely awful and downright offensive. If you like Buffy or Angel at all, stay the hell away from them.

ElJeffe

You guys need to be spoilering your spoilers.

Because you kinda aren't.

Anyway, I thought that the major arcs of the first three Buffy seasons were fantastic, while the major arcs of the last four ranged from meh

(Dawn vs Evil Bitch Goddess)

to terribad

(Willow deals with substance abuse tonight on a Very Special episode of Buffy!)

But the last half of the series had, far and away, the best individual episodes. Hush, OMWF, the one where

Buffy keeps flipping between her world and the one where she's crazy

, those were all some quality stuff.

Though season 3 had The Zeppo.

When I went through the series, I tried alternating episodes. It was sort of lame, and I gave up midway through the first season of Angel, finished all of Buffy, then went back and watched Angel. I never really felt I missed anything.

Sentry

Don't forget

Conversations with Dead People

That's one of my favorite episodes and it's from Season 7, which was kind of not good.

Mim

Sentry wrote:

Don't forget

Conversations with Dead People

That's one of my favorite episodes and it's from Season 7, which was kind of not good.

Conversations with Dead People was pretty good. I think it would've awesome if Amber Benson hadn't feared the fan's reactions and actually came back as Tara.

But with Season 6 I like

Tabula Rasa. Not because of everyone forgetting their memories but because it was starting to show promise with Willow's character arc (obsessed more with controlling rather than "magic = drugs" and because Tara stands up to Willow and ends the relationship because she respects herself. I always preferred Willow with Oz and wanted Tara to be on her own more so she could become stronger.

enlightenedbum

OptimusZed wrote:

The overlap is most noticeable on repeated viewings when you start picking up on little details. There isn't a huge amount of plot crossover outside of a few things that happen fairly quickly and aren't referenced again.

Buffy got hard because she had to be hard. She was the central figure in an existential struggle that allowed one character to joke about the plural of apocalypse in the last season. Buffy had to be tough so that everyone else could survive. You see the same transformation in most of the other characters, just not to the same extent. These people are effectively their universe's Justice League, except most of them don't have super powers. That's a damn hard life, and it has to wear on you.

Ok, quite a lot of things:

This was all true before season 4. The single hardest thing Buffy had to do was have her first love become evil because she slept with him, kill her father figure's girlfriend, torture her and her friends, try to destroy the world, only to have him be restored to the man she loved about 20 seconds before she had to kill him. And yet she was still a likable, fairly happy character the following season, while that entire arc was dealt with on an emotional level that was well done. Except Angel attempting suicide, I think that episode was crap that foreshadowed the crap that season 7 would be. Outside "Selfless" and "Conversations with Dead People."

Also, Riley left because he was a sexist asshole who couldn't handle his girlfriend having super powers, not because she was emotionally unavailable. And how many times did she have to learn the lesson that she didn't need a man to be happy. Or that she was different and a special Slayer because she had friends, only to ditch them and ignore their advice to create artificial drama. Only remaining affection for the characters as they once were kept me around once the last character I really loved left the show (Giles, obviously), then they made him an asshole in the middle of season seven for a plot that went nowhere.

Ultimately, I think the show functioned best with Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles and their interactions being the focus. But it basically required all four of them or things weren't quite even. It's like the missteps one of my current favorite shows made in their third season when they split the core group. Chuck, Casey, and Sarah (and Morgan) need to be together for that show to work properly, in exactly the same way.

ALSO: the rehabilitation bullshit in season seven? Fuck that noise. Spike tried to rape Buffy and she forgives him and acts like the fucking Buffybot around him all season. Andrew is a unrepentant little psychopath but they keep him around and because he sheds one tear he's supposed to be all redeemed? That they forgive Willow is even a stretch, but I have an affection for Alyson Hannigan and there's the aforementioned need for the core group to interact to make the show good so I excuse a lot. At least she expresses some real self-doubt and acts like she's sorry. Hell, she even punishes herself by dating Kennedy. Anya is easily the best character in season seven, followed by fucking Dawn. That's a problem.

Mim

enlightenedbum wrote:

OptimusZed wrote:

The overlap is most noticeable on repeated viewings when you start picking up on little details. There isn't a huge amount of plot crossover outside of a few things that happen fairly quickly and aren't referenced again.

Buffy got hard because she had to be hard. She was the central figure in an existential struggle that allowed one character to joke about the plural of apocalypse in the last season. Buffy had to be tough so that everyone else could survive. You see the same transformation in most of the other characters, just not to the same extent. These people are effectively their universe's Justice League, except most of them don't have super powers. That's a damn hard life, and it has to wear on you.

Ok, quite a lot of things:

This was all true before season 4. The single hardest thing Buffy had to do was have her first love become evil because she slept with him, kill her father figure's girlfriend, torture her and her friends, try to destroy the world, only to have him be restored to the man she loved about 20 seconds before she had to kill him. And yet she was still a likable, fairly happy character the following season, while that entire arc was dealt with on an emotional level that was well done. Except Angel attempting suicide, I think that episode was crap that foreshadowed the crap that season 7 would be. Outside "Selfless" and "Conversations with Dead People."

Also, Riley left because he was a sexist asshole who couldn't handle his girlfriend having super powers, not because she was emotionally unavailable. And how many times did she have to learn the lesson that she didn't need a man to be happy. Or that she was different and a special Slayer because she had friends, only to ditch them and ignore their advice to create artificial drama. Only remaining affection for the characters as they once were kept me around once the last character I really loved left the show (Giles, obviously), then they made him an asshole in the middle of season seven for a plot that went nowhere.

Ultimately, I think the show functioned best with Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles and their interactions being the focus. But it basically required all four of them or things weren't quite even. It's like the missteps one of my current favorite shows made in their third season when they split the core group. Chuck, Casey, and Sarah (and Morgan) need to be together for that show to work properly, in exactly the same way.

ALSO: the rehabilitation bullshit in season seven? Fuck that noise. Spike tried to rape Buffy and she forgives him and acts like the fucking Buffybot around him all season. Andrew is a unrepentant little psychopath but they keep him around and because he sheds one tear he's supposed to be all redeemed? That they forgive Willow is even a stretch, but I have an affection for Alyson Hannigan and there's the aforementioned need for the core group to interact to make the show good so I excuse a lot. At least she expresses some real self-doubt and acts like she's sorry. Hell, she even punishes herself by dating Kennedy. Anya is easily the best character in season seven, followed by fucking Dawn. That's a problem.

Definitely agree with the Spike/Buffy storyline for season 7. If I had been Buffy, I'd probably stake him on sight. I don't understand why they did that whole "Just hold me" shit they did in the episode "Touched" where everyone gets laid.

A lot of people unfortunately agree with Riley in that Buffy is closed off emotionally to him. They point out that if Buffy having all the power in the relationship is why he ran off, then why would he marry Sam? A girl who obviously is like Buffy but with less super strength? However, I didn't like the "Buffy you're not open enough" story because I didn't see Buffy really doing anything wrong. She was dealing with a sick mother, newly acquired kid sister AND curiously absentee dad.

I loved Giles (however, Willow is my favorite), but I didn't understand the need for him to leave Buffy after finding out she was ripped from heaven. That, I feel is when they started making Giles look like an asshole because he picked the absolute worst time to teach Buffy how to be strong on her own when what she really needed was for him to be there for her.

I also think that all of the Scoobies should've remained single in Season 7. They only paired Willow with Kennedy because of the small (but loud) fanbase being pissed off and calling the writers homophobic for Tara's death in season 6. Then they were too afraid to make it so that Willow was just attracted to people regardless of gender and decided she would a lesbian forever (making all the Season 5/6 "Gay now!" lines seem really weird in that sense) so they made Kennedy; the anti-Tara. They thought about putting Willow with a man (possibly Xander). If it was a new man, it wouldn't have worked just like it hadn't with Kennedy. I do think that Willow/Xander could've worked later towards the end of the season. In general though, Spike/Buffy and Willow/Kennedy didn't need to happen in season 7.

As for forgiving Willow, I think it made sense because they put her pain in context. It wasn't the first time Willow got worked up over a relationship (Willow wanting to punish Oz for cheating on her, trying to have her will be done to bring him back. Going after Glory when she brainsucked Tara), so a lover's death probably would push her over the edge.

Buffy still makes sense after season 4. If not, more sense. Before season 4, it was just killing Angel. After season 4, so much more was going on.

Holy shit this was long (and maybe confusing, I'm writing this in a hurry :P). Season 4-7 spoilers all up in that spoiler.

Tox

I was always a big fan of Angel, but had never watched Buffy. My girlfriend was the opposite, so when we discovered that she had the entire run of Buffy, and I had the entire run of Angel, we sat down and watched them.

After Buffy Season 3, we alternated by disc, because that wasn't overly complicated, and when we watched it we'd usually watch an entire disc over the course of a day, maybe two, depending.

It worked out alright. I think the first two seasons of Angel each had one fairly big crossover, and then there was another in the last season of Buffy, but even that one isn't quite as big. Couple of other random crossovers, but nothing as big as the first two, iirc.

Shaggy

Mim wrote:

enlightenedbum wrote:

OptimusZed wrote:

The overlap is most noticeable on repeated viewings when you start picking up on little details. There isn't a huge amount of plot crossover outside of a few things that happen fairly quickly and aren't referenced again.

Buffy got hard because she had to be hard. She was the central figure in an existential struggle that allowed one character to joke about the plural of apocalypse in the last season. Buffy had to be tough so that everyone else could survive. You see the same transformation in most of the other characters, just not to the same extent. These people are effectively their universe's Justice League, except most of them don't have super powers. That's a damn hard life, and it has to wear on you.

Ok, quite a lot of things:

This was all true before season 4. The single hardest thing Buffy had to do was have her first love become evil because she slept with him, kill her father figure's girlfriend, torture her and her friends, try to destroy the world, only to have him be restored to the man she loved about 20 seconds before she had to kill him. And yet she was still a likable, fairly happy character the following season, while that entire arc was dealt with on an emotional level that was well done. Except Angel attempting suicide, I think that episode was crap that foreshadowed the crap that season 7 would be. Outside "Selfless" and "Conversations with Dead People."

Also, Riley left because he was a sexist asshole who couldn't handle his girlfriend having super powers, not because she was emotionally unavailable. And how many times did she have to learn the lesson that she didn't need a man to be happy. Or that she was different and a special Slayer because she had friends, only to ditch them and ignore their advice to create artificial drama. Only remaining affection for the characters as they once were kept me around once the last character I really loved left the show (Giles, obviously), then they made him an asshole in the middle of season seven for a plot that went nowhere.

Ultimately, I think the show functioned best with Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles and their interactions being the focus. But it basically required all four of them or things weren't quite even. It's like the missteps one of my current favorite shows made in their third season when they split the core group. Chuck, Casey, and Sarah (and Morgan) need to be together for that show to work properly, in exactly the same way.

ALSO: the rehabilitation bullshit in season seven? Fuck that noise. Spike tried to rape Buffy and she forgives him and acts like the fucking Buffybot around him all season. Andrew is a unrepentant little psychopath but they keep him around and because he sheds one tear he's supposed to be all redeemed? That they forgive Willow is even a stretch, but I have an affection for Alyson Hannigan and there's the aforementioned need for the core group to interact to make the show good so I excuse a lot. At least she expresses some real self-doubt and acts like she's sorry. Hell, she even punishes herself by dating Kennedy. Anya is easily the best character in season seven, followed by fucking Dawn. That's a problem.

Definitely agree with the Spike/Buffy storyline for season 7. If I had been Buffy, I'd probably stake him on sight. I don't understand why they did that whole "Just hold me" shit they did in the episode "Touched" where everyone gets laid.

A lot of people unfortunately agree with Riley in that Buffy is closed off emotionally to him. They point out that if Buffy having all the power in the relationship is why he ran off, then why would he marry Sam? A girl who obviously is like Buffy but with less super strength? However, I didn't like the "Buffy you're not open enough" story because I didn't see Buffy really doing anything wrong. She was dealing with a sick mother, newly acquired kid sister AND curiously absentee dad.

I loved Giles (however, Willow is my favorite), but I didn't understand the need for him to leave Buffy after finding out she was ripped from heaven. That, I feel is when they started making Giles look like an asshole because he picked the absolute worst time to teach Buffy how to be strong on her own when what she really needed was for him to be there for her.

I also think that all of the Scoobies should've remained single in Season 7. They only paired Willow with Kennedy because of the small (but loud) fanbase being pissed off and calling the writers homophobic for Tara's death in season 6. Then they were too afraid to make it so that Willow was just attracted to people regardless of gender and decided she would a lesbian forever (making all the Season 5/6 "Gay now!" lines seem really weird in that sense) so they made Kennedy; the anti-Tara. They thought about putting Willow with a man (possibly Xander). If it was a new man, it wouldn't have worked just like it hadn't with Kennedy. I do think that Willow/Xander could've worked later towards the end of the season. In general though, Spike/Buffy and Willow/Kennedy didn't need to happen in season 7.

As for forgiving Willow, I think it made sense because they put her pain in context. It wasn't the first time Willow got worked up over a relationship (Willow wanting to punish Oz for cheating on her, trying to have her will be done to bring him back. Going after Glory when she brainsucked Tara), so a lover's death probably would push her over the edge.

Buffy still makes sense after season 4. If not, more sense. Before season 4, it was just killing Angel. After season 4, so much more was going on.

Holy shit this was long (and maybe confusing, I'm writing this in a hurry :P). Season 4-7 spoilers all up in that spoiler.

Well in regards to Giles in season 6, (spoilers for seasons 3-7 more or less)

wasn't the reason he left not exactly for plot reasons, but the fact that he wanted to spend more time in England and not filming the show? It seems like they may have been forced to take the plot in that direction. As I recall, he had almost moved back to England but was convinced to stay in an earlier season, probably 4 after the school blew up and stuff (as a plot point, not in real life).

I started to go through watching both series like they had originally aired a few months ago, but kind of stopped about halfway through season 6 of Buffy. Specifically the Xander and Anya wedding. That episode always bothered me because I knew the first time watching it that there was no way they would actually get married for TV drama purposes. I thought that they always worked well as a couple and having them be married would have been an interesting dynamic.

enlightenedbum

In response to Giles stuff:

Yeah, Anthony (Stewart) Head felt like he was missing his daughters growing up and didn't want to move the family to LA, so asked for a considerably lessened role just before season six. So they had to shoehorn his leaving in and it didn't make sense for the character *really* but it's considerably better than various things they could have done, like kill Giles. This way he gets the super badass line at the end of season six and some nice stuff with Willow at the start of season seven before the "is Giles the First?" plotline that went nowhere but required him to be a dick.

Hachface

Buffy and Angel are both wildly uneven shows. Joss and his stable of writers never do anything brilliant without doing something stupid for good measure. There is a mix of awesome and terrible in every season. Although there are all-time lows (Angel season 4) and all-time highs (Angel season 5).

OptimusZed

Season 5 of Angel made all the low points worth it, though.

That was some fist-pumpingly awesome television, but you needed the 11 seasons that came before to really appreciate it.

Senjutsu

Mim wrote:

enlightenedbum wrote:

I think it was more the quality material was from Joss, who was focusing on Angel after it existed and not Buffy. And Marti Noxon looooooved her some Spike. Who sucks when he's not an evil, sarcastic, impatient jackass.

Actually, I don't think Joss was working that much on Angel? He doesn't like the character and stated that he couldn't really write for him so David Greenwalt did a lot more of the writing. I think by the end of both Angel and Buffy he was off doing Firefly.

No, Firefly was 2002-2003, contemporaneous with season 7 of Buffy and Season 4 of Angel. By Angel Season 5 he'd gone from participating in 3 shows down to 1, which is why Season 5 feels a lot better than 4, IMO.

Gnome-Interruptus

This is so weird, I just started watching Buffy / Angel again last month too.

shryke

What's with all the Angel S4 hate?

Angel S4 was still really mostly really good. It drags a bit in the middle because of Cordelia's "surprise I'm pregnant but didn't tell the showrunners" schenanigans that forced some rewrites and also apparently destroyed her ability to act beacuse god she was awful. But the start of the season is really great and really ramps up the "holy shit". The Angelus parts were good and the ending was really great with the "big evil" being a goddess of love who eats people.

S5 was better in alot of parts, but still suffers in the beginning alot imo for having some really not so good episodes.

Also Riley:

The guy definitely had issues with Buffy being stronger then him. I liked that about the character. It's a very well done bit of characterization.

But that doesn't mean Buffy wasn't treating him like crap a bunch of the time. Sure, she's got stuff going on in her life, but even before that she treats him like he's .... not that important to her.

I mean, ultimately, right from the start, he's crazy about her and wants the whole thing. The dating/marriage/2.5 kids thing. He's in it for the long haul. And she's not. She doesn't really see him as anything but a casual boyfriend, she never really needs him or relies on him and once her life starts getting stressful she just stops thinking about him.

Skoal Cat

I had no idea Charisma Carpenter actually got you know, which gave us the surprise Season 4 thing.

Hachface

Angel S4

The Conor/Cordelia madness was icky, we all get that. But, more important, the season just does not make any fucking sense. Like, what the fuck was the point of Jasmine bringing back Angelus?

Lucid

Something in Buffy that never bore scrutiny very well was the characters financial situation. Which wouldn't be significant if they didn't make something of it in season 6.

What I mean is, during season 6 Buffy struggles to maintain a household while Giles, Xander, and Willow basically tell her to grow up and get a job. So yeah, nice, Willow has apparently somehow been living with Tara in Buffy's house for the however many months Buffy was dead(not sure how she paid for anything herself, she didn't seem to have a job) and Xander/Giles just seemingly forgetting that Buffy sort of has a full time job as a Slayer of evil. They just decide to pile all of the fiscal responsibility on Buffy for some reason? They never really justified this. I mean I get that everyone looked to Buffy for leadership, but they did so with Giles as well and he kind of dropped the ball here too for no good reason.

Skoal Cat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCYlsFagq_k

Hachface

Lucid wrote:

Something in Buffy that never bore scrutiny very well was the characters financial situation. Which wouldn't be significant if they didn't make something of it in season 6.

What I mean is, during season 6 Buffy struggles to maintain a household while Giles, Xander, and Willow basically tell her to grow up and get a job. So yeah, nice, Willow has apparently somehow been living with Tara in Buffy's house for the however many months Buffy was dead(not sure how she paid for anything herself, she didn't seem to have a job) and Xander/Giles just seemingly forgetting that Buffy sort of has a full time job as a Slayer of evil. They just decide to pile all of the fiscal responsibility on Buffy for some reason? They never really justified this. I mean I get that everyone looked to Buffy for leadership, but they did so with Giles as well and he kind of dropped the ball here too for no good reason.

But if we didn't make up these ridiculously contrived situations, how could we use the story as a metaphor for growing up?

shryke

Hachface wrote:

Angel S4

The Conor/Cordelia madness was icky, we all get that. But, more important, the season just does not make any fucking sense. Like, what the fuck was the point of Jasmine bringing back Angelus?

To keep everyone distracted. To keep them running in circles so they don't stop and think about what's going on.

Once everything is dealt with and back in order, everyone quickly sits down, notices what's going on and the jig is up.

Astaereth

Angel is pretty much terrible throughout, although it's watchable after the first season. Then season 5 makes it all worth it, not only with an amazing season-long arc that redefines "ballsy" on the part of the writers, but with one home run episode after another. Next to Firefly it's the best season of TV Whedon has ever produced.

Things season 4 did to me that made me hate it:

-The Beast is boring. He's boring-looking, he's a boring character, the fights are boring, there's absolutely nothing of interest about it in the slightest.
-Cordelia is consistently sidelined, and in ways that are really really annoying and pointless. I gather the writers didn't have a choice, but still.
-4 is Connor's only full season, and while he inspires great reactions in everybody as a plot point, he's really really annoying as a whiny teen. I continually want to slap him and make him listen to perfectly reasonable explanations of Angel's (and others') motivations so he would understand. Whinging git.
-The Angelus bits are great, but they don't add up to much of anything.
-"Oh ho! In reality, everything you have experienced up to this point was merely in service of this precise plot development! Pay no attention to the ret-conning behind the curtain!"
-The Jasmine ending feels AWFUL to sit through. It's Buffy's "Superstar" all over again, but for longer. Wouldn't it be fun if all our favorite cast members were mind-controlled and their personalities replaced by one-note simpering? No. No it would not.
-Aside from that, episode to episode it's not very good. There are a few exceptions--the reappearance of Faith, the opening episode, the Angel/Angelus dream sequence episode--but overall, even the filler is mediocre.

Basically Season 4 is one of the worst seasons, but it's worth it for setting up the glory that is season 5.

As for the comics, the Angel comic is actually quite good. It's the Buffy comic that's terrible, a horrible confusing unfun mish-mash of all the stuff Joss Whedon has ever wanted to do but couldn't afford on a television budget. Even Whedon has admitted he should have reigned it in a bit. Basically it ignores the characters in favor of ridiculous plot twists and overwraught action. And it's non-canon with the Angel comics for a reason, too.

Unknown

This content has been removed.